What IS a Deity/God?

[Kevingway]

Elder Evils are great creatures from the beyond (or something), Demon Lords and Devil... Lords(?) obviously rule over realms in the Abyss/Nine Hells respectively; but what is a deity, exactly? As I understand it, deities/gods are created almost exclusively through devoted worshipers or some sort of higher power being achieved. We even have creatures like Orcus, one of these Demon Lords, attempting to achieve godhood, but what does this actually do for him?

I'm asking because I'm trying to see the distinction between evil deities and creatures such as Demon Lords and others. It seems very abstract.

[Tanuki Tales]

Depending on whether you use Deities and Demigods, True Deities are either unstatted abstract entities that do whatever the DM/GM wants them to do or extremely powerful outsiders that still get facerolled by highly optimized PCs, but are still much more powerful and harder to kill than Elder Evils and Archfiends.

[Kevingway]

Depending on whether you use Deities and Demigods, True Deities are either unstatted abstract entities that do whatever the DM/GM wants them to do or extremely powerful outsiders that still get facerolled by highly optimized PCs, but are still much more powerful and harder to kill than Elder Evils and Archfiends.

Well... yes. :P

But is their only distinction in mechanics terms? Because obviously we have statted Demon Lords and the such, not many abstracts there. Or rather, a lot of these things only have "Aspects of," which leads me to believe that that's all we know, or more clearly, all things of that nature are of deific nature.

[123456789blaaa]

A God in DnD is kind of like an anthromorphozed philosophy's. They all have a very particular dogma and way of life that they represent. These are subsets of the broader Alignments that they are aligned with. They also have control and dominion over aspects of reality related to those philosophies.

Something like a Demon Prince may be immensely powerful but they aren't personifications of what they preach and advance. Orcus may have a dogma that he has worshippers preach and specific aspects of reality that his worshippers advance. His very being isn't divinely intertwined with them like deities are though. He isn't so embedded into reality that he can sense things realted to his Areas of Concern happening. He's really not that different from some really powerful human wizard doing the same thing.

EDIT: I would also suggest asking questions related to the planes in Afroakuma's latest planar questions thread. He's excellent.

[Kevingway]

Yet regardless, these beings must be able to hear prayers to them; an Elder Evil knows that it's being served and can therefore grant feats to an individual (and in Sertrous's case, domains), and other beings like Demon Lords also grant clerics access to domains. That's my stumping point. They can hear prayer, so to that degree, they have the same power as gods... but what else?

[Xelbiuj]

or extremely powerful outsiders that still get facerolled by highly optimized PCs, but are still much more powerful and harder to kill than Elder Evils and Archfiends.

I always hear this but it that happens, ever, it seems like the DM was playing the gods poorly instead of as optimized and intelligently as the players.
There's absolutely no reason players should really be able to take on a god.
The Salient Divine Abilities plus the divine senses should handily give them the edge.

Hell, Boccob gets to make any* magic item.
For example, epic weapons . . .
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#epicWeaponSpecialAbilityDescriptions

"There is no limit to an epic magic weapon’s enhancement bonus"

Any plus no limit = gg pcs. Plug having items to make up for any immunities he's lacking.

The cheese gods get is better than what pcs get, and they get a stupid amount of prep time, followers, etc.

/end rant

[Brookshw]

Well... yes. :P

But is their only distinction in mechanics terms? Because obviously we have statted Demon Lords and the such, not many abstracts there. Or rather, a lot of these things only have "Aspects of," which leads me to believe that that's all we know, or more clearly, all things of that nature are of deific nature.

There's no one answer to your question unfortunately. The nature of gods and big evils changes every so often, sometimes by edition, sometimes by campaign setting, sometimes by dm preference. I suppose a short answer would be gods have an intrinsic connect to some element of reality, be it an abstract one, such as retribution, or a tangible one, such as weather. More often that not demon lords, arch devils, elder evils, lack such a connection but there isn't consistent treatment. To try and elaborate BoVD says they grant spells by acting as brokers for evil gods while the FC's say they grant them. They also say that its fine to stat/treat them as gods if you like. Some of the big names die as gods, i.e., their corpses end up on the astral, some don't. Can you refine the question? Also, you may want to ask this in Afro's thread.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well... yes. :P

But is their only distinction in mechanics terms? Because obviously we have statted Demon Lords and the such, not many abstracts there. Or rather, a lot of these things only have "Aspects of," which leads me to believe that that's all we know, or more clearly, all things of that nature are of deific nature.

If you want to get away from mechanics, then fluff-wise, the difference is a sense of scope and scale. Archfiends and Elder Evils are, for all intents and purposes, the same as gods when it comes to mortals. True Deities, on the other hand, have sway over entire aspects of reality itself and can bend them to their will. They have immense power over certain aspects of their cosmos and generally stand supreme in those respects. Their defenses are nigh-unassailable by lessers, hard to press by peers and only truly overcome by those who stand above them. Where an Archfiend or Elder Evil might raise up a favored pawn to be a force to be reckoned with and a destroyer of armies or a bane of worlds, those chosen by a God can realistically smash the Archfiend's or Elder Evil's face in.

The trade off for this phenomenal cosmic power though is that their hands are more tied. They generally can't act as openly or flagrantly as Archfiends or Elder Evils are wont to do and have to abide by ancient pacts and rules, less they draw ire and ruin upon themselves and their worshipers. Depending on the setting, deities also either draw direct proportional power from their worship or at least have to mind their people and their needs. Archfiends and Elder Evils have no such relationship with the Material Plane and can use and abuse mortals as they see fit with no real cosmic consequences (other than pissing off some gods and/or putting their face on the wanted boards for adventurers).

Edit:

@Xel: I was talking about the pre-statted Gods.

[123456789blaaa]

Yet regardless, these beings must be able to hear prayers to them; an Elder Evil knows that it's being served and can therefore grant feats to an individual (and in Sertrous's case, domains), and other beings like Demon Lords also grant clerics access to domains. That's my stumping point. They can hear prayer, so to that degree, they have the same power as gods... but what else?

It's somewhat unclear just how voluntary the granting of spells is from non-deific entities. Most Elder Evils don't care one bit about worshippers at all. I would think it's much more likely that the granting of feats and domains is just a side-effect of their nature. Clerics can worship ideals and get domains as well.

[CubeB]

This is really dependent on your campaign setting.

By default, a deity is an outsider in possession of divine ranks and a portfolio. A divine rank is basically a deity's level, and how a deity gets divine ranks is dependent on the setting. Sometimes it is through worship, sometimes it is through some other means. Entities of beyond a divine rank of 20 don't need worshipers at all.

A deity also has a portfolio, which represents a level of control over certain elements of reality. These are similar to a Cleric's domain, but much more powerful in scope. Think of it as thematic reality warping.

Now, depending on your setting, deities act a bit differently...

In Planescape, deities are called powers. As in, they're very powerful outsiders, but its still in the air as to whether or not they're really gods. There is a faction of people known as the Athar who believe that "godhood" is a bunch of bunk. The fact that they aren't all dead is a testament to how they might not be entirely wrong.

In settings like Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, Gods are part of the fabric of reality. If a god dies, then everyone can feel it. It's a cataclysmic event. Mystra dying was enough to make magic go insane, and the conflicts of various deities have made the magical make up of Krynn (in Dragonlance) highly unstable.

In Eberron, the deities are distant and might not even exist. Spellgranting is weird there, since even people without divine ranks can "grant" spells. The Lord of Blades is only level 14 with no divine ranks or portfolio in 3.5, but he could theoretically have a level 20 cleric. In practice, if you were playing a game as a Cleric of the Lord of Blades and managed to outlevel him, some serious story would probably be going down involving him soon, but it's still mechanically possible.

And some places don't even have gods.

So it really depends. By default, I'd go with either the Forgotten Realms or Planescape interpretations, depending on your setting.

[Tanuki Tales]

In Eberron, the deities are distant and might not even exist. Spellgranting is weird there, since even people without divine ranks can "grant" spells. The Lord of Blades is only level 14 with no divine ranks or portfolio in 3.5, but he could theoretically have a level 20 cleric. In practice, if you were playing a game as a Cleric of the Lord of Blades and managed to outlevel him, some serious story would probably be going down involving him soon, but it's still mechanically possible.


How are they not just a Cleric of a cause, with said cause being the Lord of Blades and his manifesto?

[SciChronic]

I treat deities like the gods from Raymond Feist's Riftwar saga. The gods are the manifestation of their worship, meaning if no one worshiped them then they would cease to exist. The number of their worshipers also represents how strong they are as a deity.

This collection of will for an aligned cause manifests itself as avatars or some other form of intervention.

[Brookshw]

I treat deities like the gods from Raymond Feist's Riftwar saga. The gods are the manifestation of their worship, meaning if no one worshiped them then they would cease to exist. The number of their worshipers also represents how strong they are as a deity.

This collection of will for an aligned cause manifests itself as avatars or some other form of intervention.

A very/sorta FR way of doing it.

[afroakuma]

Elder Evils are great creatures from the beyond (or something), Demon Lords and Devil... Lords(?) obviously rule over realms in the Abyss/Nine Hells respectively; but what is a deity, exactly? As I understand it, deities/gods are created almost exclusively through devoted worshipers or some sort of higher power being achieved. We even have creatures like Orcus, one of these Demon Lords, attempting to achieve godhood, but what does this actually do for him?

I'm asking because I'm trying to see the distinction between evil deities and creatures such as Demon Lords and others. It seems very abstract.

A demon lord is a relatively powerful outsider who rules over a part of the Abyss because the plane lets it happen, typically as a reward for being strong enough to keep others off your turf. They don't usually have worshipers beyond at most a small, deranged cult, and anything they do or command is done by dint of personal force and their own power (or that of agents they employ to do their dirty work).

Sounds like an evil deity so far, perhaps, but read on:

A god is a vastly powerful entity; possessed of the access keys to part of what makes the very cosmos function. While their official stats have them as just super-powerful outsiders, the traits possessed by deities simply by dint of being deities - their divine rank and associated benefits, salient divine abilities, immortality - make them stand out as a cut above entities such as demon lords. Even the mighty demon princes, who rule their layers uncontested and have much greater bases of worship, would think twice before taking on a god.

A demon prince or lord does not truly grant spells to worshipers; in some cases, fiends of blasphemy are sent out to channel the power of the Lower Planes into a cleric. In others, the Lower Planes themselves provide the actual spellcasting with the demon lord serving merely as a conduit. They are not sources of divine power.

Were Orcus to become a god, he would gain (at minimum) maximized hit points, four times his ground movement speed (six times his flight speed), a native +5 deflection bonus to his AC (which he could improve with any Charisma buff), +1 divine bonus to AC, saves, skill checks, ability checks, caster level checks and attack rolls; he would no longer automatically fail checks on a natural 1; tons of immunities, multiple new domain powers and at-will spell-like abilities, mile-wide senses, the ability to remote sense around two places or individuals holding his power at once to a range of one mile; the ability to perceive any event pertaining to his new portfolio that affects one thousand or more persons at once; a divine aura (probably fright), several minor perks such as realms, communications and travel abilities; and at least two salient divine abilities. That's assuming he became a rank 1 demigod and his ability scores didn't increase. He could grant spells directly to worshipers, watch over his high priests and temples, block other rank 1 demigods from spying on them... it's a big boost to your ability to wield power.

[Prime32]

How are they not just a Cleric of a cause, with said cause being the Lord of Blades and his manifesto?Effectively all clerics in Eberron are clerics of a cause. They can't have their powers revoked for heresy, which means there are a lot of different factions and sects within the various organised churches, as well as individual evil clerics of good deities and vice versa.

The Silver Flame sometimes appears to directly choose people to wield a fragment of its power, but at least part of this ability is under the control of a rakshasa rajah so it still has both good and evil chosen.

The rajahs themselves are probably the closest thing to the true deities of other settings, being obscenely powerful (http://community.wizards.com/forum/eberron/threads/1667511) embodiments of concepts that are nigh-omniscient and can't die as long as treachery or magic or shadows or whatever exist.

[Rubik]

Yet regardless, these beings must be able to hear prayers to them; an Elder Evil knows that it's being served and can therefore grant feats to an individual (and in Sertrous's case, domains), and other beings like Demon Lords also grant clerics access to domains. That's my stumping point. They can hear prayer, so to that degree, they have the same power as gods... but what else?I suspect that Elder Evils, demon lords, and archdevils are all high level truenamers.

*Shudder* No wonder they're so evil.