What tier is this?

[atemu1234]

My DM OK-ed my 13th level character. He's a spellstitched necropolitan Dread Necromancer 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 2. Basically invested in necromancy.

It vastly outstrips a lot of the rest of the party, so what tier is it?

[Extra Anchovies]

(eventual) 9th-level prepared casting off the cleric list = T1

[eggynack]

Depends a lot on the level. Like, right now you're running only 4th level cleric spells when a straight cleric would be running 7th's, which is ridiculously behind. You're also running 6th level dread necromancer casting, but that's probably not enough to justify a big tier shift. So, you're probably low tier 2, high tier 3, if I had to guess. You'll shoot up really fast though, likely hitting tier 1 in a few levels. Things get a bit wonky when you try to import builds into the tier system, especially particularly wonky builds using ur-priest.

Edit: @Extra Anchovies: That's not really a strong determinant of overall tier. If everything were 9th level cleric spells, then healer would probably be tier 1, on the basis of gate. In actuality, this build acts like a tier 3 over most of the levels that the tier system covers, only pulling far ahead near the end of that coverage. The tier system is often said to run from about 6-15, and at the top of the curve we're talking 6th level spells, significantly behind the 8th's that would be available to a cleric. I'd hesitate to put this anywhere above tier 2 as a result, even considering this build-moment.

[Urpriest]

Tiers are a matter of classes, not builds. You're using a Tier 3 class and a Tier 1 class. Neither is up to full power yet, but you've got turning and a decent selection of divine spells, so presumably you're using DMM to some extent, and your base class is a Tier 3, but one that has strong cheese potential.

[atemu1234]

Tiers are a matter of classes, not builds. You're using a Tier 3 class and a Tier 1 class. Neither is up to full power yet, but you've got turning and a decent selection of divine spells, so presumably you're using DMM to some extent, and your base class is a Tier 3, but one that has strong cheese potential.

What is DMM?

[Extra Anchovies]

Edit: @Extra Anchovies: That's not really a strong determinant of overall tier. If everything were 9th level cleric spells, then healer would probably be tier 1, on the basis of gate. In actuality, this build acts like a tier 3 over most of the levels that the tier system covers, only pulling far ahead near the end of that coverage. The tier system is often said to run from about 6-15, and at the top of the curve we're talking 6th level spells, significantly behind the 8th's that would be available to a cleric. I'd hesitate to put this anywhere above tier 2 as a result, even considering this build-moment.

It's not having access to ninths with some cleric spells; it's access to ninths along with all of the cleric list. Any prepared nine-level caster who selects from the sorcerer/wizard or cleric lists is going to be T1, because so much of those classes' power is wrapped up in their spell lists. Just having Gate gives you one way to break the game; having Gate, Astral Projection, Miracle, and Summon Monster IX, along with all of the gamebreaker goodies farther down the cleric list, on the other hand, lets you break the game six ways to Sunday and back. The build is a T1 by level 20, and generally when judging a build's power people tend to look at how it'll stand up at the high levels, so my point stands.

ETA:
What is DMM?

The Divine Metamagic feat. Choose one metamagic feat you have; you can now apply that feat to spells you cast without adjusting their level if you spend (spell level adjustment + 1) turn/rebuke attempts. Gets borked fast with Persistent, and to a slightly lesser extent Quicken.

[eggynack]

It's not having access to ninths with some cleric spells; it's access to ninths along with all of the cleric list. Any prepared nine-level caster who selects from the sorcerer/wizard or cleric lists is going to be T1, because so much of those classes' power is wrapped up in their spell lists. Just having Gate gives you one way to break the game; having Gate, Astral Projection, Miracle, and Summon Monster IX, along with all of the gamebreaker goodies farther down the cleric list, on the other hand, lets you break the game six ways to Sunday and back. The build is a T1 by level 20, and generally when judging a build's power people tend to look at how it'll stand up at the high levels, so my point stands.
When judging a build's power, people might check how it stands up at high levels, but when judging a the tier of a "class", it's mostly irrelevant. If a class has nothing for 16 levels, and then suddenly full cleric casting at 17 and up, then the cleric casting is nearly irrelevant to tier. We can say that this build will act like a tier 1 at level 20, but if this build were itself a class, then it would absolutely not be a tier 1 class. This is also not a tier 1 at the level being evaluated.

[Fumble Jack]

What is DMM?

Divine Metamagic. I think it's in complete divine. It let's you swap turning/rebuking attempts for metamagic use, instead of adjusting for the spell level, as a free action, at the cost of 1 turn/rebuke+ x levels higher the metamagic would make the spell. Empower burn 3 turn/rebukes, Quicken burn 5 turn/rebukes and so on.

[prufock]

Going by the book for tiers, you have 3 for dread necro, up 2 for ur-priest, down one for mystic theurge, which would give you tier 2.

However, those assume most useful entry. You are two spell levels behind a straight DN build. At level 13 you have 5th level dread necro spells and 4th level ur-priest spells. A straight wiz or cleric would have 7th level spells, while straight dread necro or sorcerer would have 6th, so you're already kind of behind. You are definitely weaker than straight tier 1 or 2, and don't catch up until the last couple levels. I would say you're stuck in tier 3.

Of course, overall effectiveness depends on what you want to do with your build. You have a lot of rebuke undead attempts for powering divine feats, and I assume you'd be going for an undead army general type build.


It's not having access to ninths with some cleric spells; it's access to ninths along with all of the cleric list.
Note that the build is only posted to level 13. By level 20, yeah it will be close to par with a cleric, but over the career of the character and more importantly the current level, it doesn't come close to that.

[Extra Anchovies]

Note that the build is only posted to level 13. By level 20, yeah it will be close to par with a cleric, but over the career of the character and more importantly the current level, it doesn't come close to that.

That's a fair point. As it is right now it's probably around T3, because it has some powerful tricks but nothing horrible for its level; it'll hit T1 around the time it gets 7th-level spells, IME.