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Cowboy_ninja
2007-03-18, 02:52 PM
this is probably going to end up just me complaining about the dungeon im playing in but on a brighter note

i want to give my DM some feedback so he canimprove his dungeon before it falls apart. (historically he's let about 5 dungeons die) however i just dont know what to tell him he can do besides what he is doing. i kinda konw what i dont like about the dungeon but i dont want to tell him " STOP doing this" wihtout offer a " maybe you can do this instead"

1) he let us create our own character classes. he looked them over to keep them balanced but he let us combine what ever we wanted to get the "style we wanted"

2) he is DEFINETALLY relying on the dice a lot. whats worse is that he has unbelive able lucky rolls. so his NPS have super stats, are crit'ing often. and he refuses to fudge the rolls. Hence we die alot. sure he gives us gold acording to the DMG table of "how much gold a LVL __ should have" but we end up spending it on 5000 GP rez material components

3) His Challenges are WAY to powerful. he sent 6 lvl 1 PC (us) to hijack a caravan of stolen goods. 4 wagons, about 10-13 badguys. ( i forget how many got away onthat last wagon) i run a melee type character and i swere to you there has not been one encounter so far where i was not knocked unconcious and the healer had to step in and heal me (Assuming she was still concious as well). its not fun.

4) We have not had a solid plot yet. the plot is SUPPOSE to be that we have to defeat a dragon that is terrorizing the north. we are all still lvl 3-4. we are have problems with kobolds half our level so we refuse to go after the dragon. ( the DM does not mind this by the way he encourages us to use our freedom to do what we want) so we just walk from town to town asking around "for something to do" and end up with these assignments that are not meaningful in the least.

5) something i definetally thing he should do is limit the amount of characters we are allowed to have. we each have 2-3 characters..... ( i'll post another threadon a problem im haveing with this soon)



thoughts? opinions?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-18, 03:10 PM
Wait wait wait- he has you guys make up your own classes which he then attempts to balance, has a tendency to always send you into fights that are blatantly in the enemy's favor statistically, then refuses to fudge dice even though he's already removed any semblance of balance? Leave the game. No, don't walk out the door. I mean barrel roll out the window.

Homebrewing is one thing, but he's basically made it uncontrollable, especially given his inability to properly CR anything.

DeathQuaker
2007-03-18, 03:26 PM
Wait wait wait- he has you guys make up your own classes which he then attempts to balance, has a tendency to always send you into fights that are blatantly in the enemy's favor statistically, then refuses to fudge dice even though he's already removed any semblance of balance? Leave the game. No, don't walk out the door. I mean barrel roll out the window.

Pretty much it, right there.

What's he doing wrong? Everything.

If I were to guess, and give him some benefit of the doubt, I would say that he isn't actually very experienced with the rules, and the problem is that he's trying to bend and change rules he doesn't really understand.

He needs to run a quick game by the book--core classes/feats/spells only, follow DM's Guide guidelines for appropriate challenges, etc. so he can get a sense of what is intended as game balance--and also get a firmer sense of what doesn't work in the game as written. In order to bend the rules, you have to know what they are first.

I'd even say maybe he ought to run, or at least base an adventure off of, a premade adventure module. That might help him give a good solid sense of what the feel and pacing a good dungeon crawl is supposed to have, and what is an appropriate challenge.

But all that said... based on your description, it sounds to me like your DM is overly controlling in the name of flexibility, and plays the game as "DM versus players," which IMO is a very bad way to play an RPG (as someone once briefly put it, "the art of being a good dungeon master is allowing the players win without them realizing it." It can of course be more complicated than that and I would like this parenthetical note NOT to spark off a debate--just an idea to keep in mind). He may not "get it" or want to.

That said, and again, giving him the benefit of the doubt, tell him basically what you told us--that you're feeling frustrated, like you can't handle what he's throwing at you, and could he please scale the challenges more appropriately? Tell him you're not having fun, and remind him that's what D&D is supposed to be about. If you are polite about this and he listens to you respectfully, see how things go. If he gets defensive and gets mad at you, it's a sign things are likely not going to get better and I would suggest finding another gaming group.

Jasdoif
2007-03-18, 03:27 PM
It sounds to me like you and the DM aren't agreeing on the style of game you should be playing, and/or the DM isn't really familiar with how the game is meant to be balanced. You should ask him about the style of game, why the PCs are asked to face challenges so much greater than you seem able to handle, and so on. Suggest something more like a standard game, with CRs closer to the party's average level and so on.

However, some more specific suggestions:
1) he let us create our own character classes. he looked them over to keep them balanced but he let us combine what ever we wanted to get the "style we wanted"Ow. Class balance can be a real challenge. May I suggest you point your DM to the generic classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) variant? It'll provide some consistency to your class creations, if nothing else.


2) he is DEFINETALLY relying on the dice a lot. whats worse is that he has unbelive able lucky rolls. so his NPS have super stats, are crit'ing often. and he refuses to fudge the rolls. Hence we die alot. sure he gives us gold acording to the DMG table of "how much gold a LVL __ should have" but we end up spending it on 5000 GP rez material componentsSuggest a point-buy system (like the one on p.169 of the DMG) instead of rolling for stats. This is for PCs and NPCs, of course.

But while we're here, are you standing and fighting every NPC you meet? Just maybe, that's part of the problem.


3) His Challenges are WAY to powerful. he sent 6 lvl 1 PC (us) to hijack a caravan of stolen goods. 4 wagons, about 10-13 badguys. ( i forget how many got away onthat last wagon) i run a melee type character and i swere to you there has not been one encounter so far where i was not knocked unconcious and the healer had to step in and heal me (Assuming she was still concious as well). its not fun.This is really hard to comment on without further information, like what all these player-defined classes have for abilities.


4) We have not had a solid plot yet. the plot is SUPPOSE to be that we have to defeat a dragon that is terrorizing the north. we are all still lvl 3-4. we are have problems with kobolds half our level so we refuse to go after the dragon. ( the DM does not mind this by the way he encourages us to use our freedom to do what we want) so we just walk from town to town asking around "for something to do" and end up with these assignments that are not meaningful in the least.This comes down to game style, see my first paragraph.


5) something i definetally thing he should do is limit the amount of characters we are allowed to have. we each have 2-3 characters..... ( i'll post another threadon a problem im haveing with this soon)...explain this to me. Your characters keep dying, but you don't want to be allowed to have more then one character.

Also, are you forced to have more then one character, or do you (personally) just have multiples because you're allowed?

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-03-18, 03:28 PM
To paraphrase Viscount: Run. Run Faster then you ever have before.

In reality, no matter what you do, you're going to have to be a bit harsh. Can he handle serious that?

PnP Fan
2007-03-18, 03:37 PM
Yeah, this sounds . . .. a lot of words come to mind, but the only thing I can post is "not fun".
VE and I don't always agree on something, but this time I think he hit the nail on the head, into the board, through it, and into the next wall.
You can ask him to run 'vanilla d&d'. For some reason a lot of folks don't like it, but if it's done right, it can be a lot of fun. To me it sounds like your DM is just lazy. He's willing to make judgement calls, but not willing to put together plot to guide you to the story of killing this dragon. Lazy.
He's willing to let YOU put together classes, instead of customizing his own. Lazy.
He's let 5 dungeons die on him in the past, instead of trying to make things fun for players, and make the dungeon run well. Lazy.
If you can't convince him to do vanilla d&d, or something akin to it, I'd just go find another game. Or perhaps resign yourself to playing something kinda stupid, and focus on spending time with your friends, and just use the game a social opportunity. I've done that numerous times, and it was no less fun, it was just fun for a different reason.

Ranis
2007-03-18, 03:39 PM
This is why DMs need to actually play the game before assuming the captain's chair. Do a Neo-double backflip ninja judo kick the hell out of that game, because if you're not happy, chances are no one else is either.

Oh, and you might want to clean up your typing just a bit.

Em
2007-03-18, 03:52 PM
This is why DMs need to actually play the game before assuming the captain's chair. Do a Neo-double backflip ninja judo kick the hell out of that game, because if you're not happy, chances are no one else is either.

Oh, and you might want to clean up your typing just a bit.

Quoted for truth on both statements. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, there are too few people out there who actually know how fun RPGs can be... and I just don't think that DM gets the idea.

Cowboy_ninja
2007-03-18, 04:27 PM
Yeah, this sounds . . .. a lot of words come to mind, but the only thing I can post is "not fun".
VE and I don't always agree on something, but this time I think he hit the nail on the head, into the board, through it, and into the next wall.
You can ask him to run 'vanilla d&d'. For some reason a lot of folks don't like it, but if it's done right, it can be a lot of fun. To me it sounds like your DM is just lazy. He's willing to make judgement calls, but not willing to put together plot to guide you to the story of killing this dragon. Lazy.
He's willing to let YOU put together classes, instead of customizing his own. Lazy.
He's let 5 dungeons die on him in the past, instead of trying to make things fun for players, and make the dungeon run well. Lazy.
If you can't convince him to do vanilla d&d, or something akin to it, I'd just go find another game. Or perhaps resign yourself to playing something kinda stupid, and focus on spending time with your friends, and just use the game a social opportunity. I've done that numerous times, and it was no less fun, it was just fun for a different reason.


Information: this DM comes from a gamer family history. his parents still play from time to time. he has played plenty often. and knows the rules very well.

i think that is why he is so comfortable with changing rules.

i really hated it when he changed the 5ft-step-rule. he said taking 5ft steps to avoid aops is a lame rule that killed the point of defensive manuvers like total defense or defensive casting so if we move only 5ft we are considered occupying both for the purposes of aops which pissed off our casters and archers

-Jasdoif- i guess i put the "having too may characters " as a negative because most of the players enjoy the character/s they have and dont want them to die. most of us make many characters because we are allowed to. His dungon has a high "turnover rate" the DM insists that if we do end up havein a character that survives to lvl 10 ( when he is exp starving us) we will feel like we earned it.

Galathir
2007-03-18, 05:05 PM
It sounds like your DM has moved away from D&D and has started his own little game system. A game system quite inferior to D&D in more ways than one, not the least of which is player satisfaction. If I were you, I'd be out of the game with a full withdraw action, and expeditious retreat as well.

Leush
2007-03-18, 05:41 PM
On one hand I agree that the DM is not being very nice. On the other hand running away is bad. Never run away from a problem without having a bash at solving it. There are lots of ways to perceive this- he could be a great DM whose going too far, or he could be a self obsessed jerk. From what you've said, I'd judge him to be closer to the former since I approve of a lot of the measures he takes (potentially they could have good results). Kudos to him on the custom classes, tell me, is he a good judge of balance?

As for what to do about the things you're not happy with:

Ask nicely.
Ask why.
Remind him that we play games for fun.
Ask that he vary the CR of his encounters.
Suggest that he give missions which in a way relate to the plot, loosely or otherwise. (Eg- farmer's cattle stolen by dragons minion- so you know that it's a problem).
Tell him to stop being so engrossed in his npcs.
Buy him a new set of dice.

An afterthought, what do his other players think?

EvilElitest
2007-03-18, 09:03 PM
Wait wait wait- he has you guys make up your own classes which he then attempts to balance, has a tendency to always send you into fights that are blatantly in the enemy's favor statistically, then refuses to fudge dice even though he's already removed any semblance of balance? Leave the game. No, don't walk out the door. I mean barrel roll out the window.

Homebrewing is one thing, but he's basically made it uncontrollable, especially given his inability to properly CR anything.

I have to do that a few times in my days. Really, ether take over in a Stanely style revolution or run. Just run. No don't stand and fight, run. Do as Miko does not do and run.

As for surgesstions, it sounds like this guy just can't really DM at all. Maybe some one else should try and show him how it is done. And what is vinella D&D?
from,
EE

RandomNPC
2007-03-18, 09:19 PM
No, don't walk out the door. I mean barrel roll out the window.

no, what you want to do is forcibly make him barrel roll out the window, and take over.

jjpickar
2007-03-18, 09:22 PM
Dang, you guys are being kinda harsh to the DM. Sounds like he was expecting his players to be skilled enough to handle tactical disadvantages and make a brutal game.

But it seems like you probably don't enjoy that type of game. There's nothing wrong with that. Just tell him so. He sounds like an experienced gamer, he should be able to change his play style fairly easily.

However, he might also be learning how to DM. There are plenty of good players who have played D&D for years who don't know the first thing about DMing. It could be he needs some help learning how to DM properly.

Either way, This is an opportunity that should be grasped since both you and the DM can learn from this. Good luck!:smallsmile:

clericwithnogod
2007-03-18, 10:04 PM
Information: this DM comes from a gamer family history. his parents still play from time to time. he has played plenty often. and knows the rules very well.

i think that is why he is so comfortable with changing rules.


The worst house rules I've seen in-game have consistently come from experienced DMs who change rules because they "look wrong" to them rather than to fix an actual issue.

Unlike new DMs that often learn from their mistakes, the "old school" DMs will often stick with a bad rule that "looks right" to them regardless of how unbalanced it is and/or how much it detracts from the players' enjoyment of the game.

The game is supposed to be fun for the players too and it seems that some long-time DMs forget that - especially those who don't sit on the other side of the table much or haven't in a long while.

With virtual tabletop software, webcams, ventrilo/teamspeak, and the SRD/Amazon.com, it's easier than ever to find a game with a DM that runs an enjoyable game. And, while MMO games aren't as fun as a game run by a good DM, they're a lot more fun than one run by a bad DM. There is always something to do while you take a couple days to find a new game.

PnP Fan
2007-03-19, 09:44 AM
Vanilla D&D: Generic, no-Campaign Setting, D&D, using nothing but Core rules, no house rules, no supplements, etc. ...
i.e. what most folks call "Core Rules", or sometimes "Greyhawk"
not intended as an insult (though someone will doubtless take it as so, *shrug*), just implies nothing special, standard D&D.

UglyPanda
2007-03-19, 10:29 AM
Sounds kinda like my old DM.

If he is giving you quests with ridiculous CR, make sure he knows how CR is supposed to be calculated. Sadly, many new DMs think that four level 10 characters can handle a single level 20 because that's how it works in video games.

ravenkith
2007-03-19, 10:41 AM
I'd say your best bet is to tell him that you think the homebrew stuff is a little bit too complicated, and ask if he can run a 'by-the-book' core game, going back to basics.

Tell him you find the game confusing, and don't like running multiple characters simultaneously (max of six PCs in any party, IMHO, and each should be run by a player - no DMPCs).

Tell him that trying to learn the original rules is hard enough, without all the changes that have been made, and that aren't written down.

Tell him you'd be more than happy to make a standard character, and do away with the pick 'n' mix you've been having to deal with.

Tell him whatever you like, but make sure he understands that you just want to play a D&D game.

If you and a couple of the other players go to him with this, and make the request, and he doesn't accede to it, it's time to move on.

Whatever else happens, RPGs are about having fun, and if you aren't having fun, it's time to quit.

Fawsto
2007-03-19, 11:03 AM
Your DM read the DMs Book? I am almost 100% sure taht he didn't! He is completely wrong!! It is almost like he is creating "his" story, and you are the coadjuvants.

Ok... Maybe he is trying to do something... but he is clearly not listening to you. Talk to your player partners and listen to what they have to say. If you guys feel the same way, team attack the dm.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-19, 11:57 AM
2) he is DEFINETALLY relying on the dice a lot. whats worse is that he has unbelive able lucky rolls. so his NPS have super stats, are crit'ing often. and he refuses to fudge the rolls. Hence we die alot. sure he gives us gold acording to the DMG table of "how much gold a LVL __ should have" but we end up spending it on 5000 GP rez material components


The only thing that's worse than a mad house ruler is one that starts fudging dice rolls to make the story happen the way he wants it to.

For the other....

Table 5-1 is the characters expected wealth by level. You should have approximately that amount on you in goods and coin at a given level.

The often forgotten piece is the Wealth Comparisons table and accompanying text on page 54 of the DMG in the Behind the Curtain:Treasure Values sidebar. It describes the difference between what players are expected to get in treasure (from the treasure generation tables), spend on expendables and such, and what they're expected to have as wealth.

"There’s a relationship between Table 5–1: Character Wealth Level, Table 3–5: Treasure, and Table 3–2: Encounter Difficulty. Writing adventures following the guidelines in this chapter, and using Table 3–2: Encounter Difficulty, should generate enough treasure using Table 3–5: Treasure to keep characters abreast of the wealth figures described in Table 5–1. In fact, such adventures should provide more wealth, because characters expend some money on scrolls, potions, ammunition, and food, all of which get used up in the course of adventuring.
As you can see, rewards using these tables generate more wealth than indicated. We assume characters use up that additional money on expenses such as being raised from the dead, potions, scrolls, ammunition, food, and so forth." DMG, page 54.

SeeKay
2007-03-19, 12:27 PM
Sounds like this DM is trying to mix AD&D (ie:1.0 and 2.0) and D&D. Since I've played all 3 (well, 4 if you count 3.0 and 3.5 seperate) I can tell you that the current rules do not mix well with the old ones. This DM needs help in other areas as well, but I'll get to them later.

One major fix to this problem is getting the DM to see that 3.5 is a good rule-set. It has it's share of flaws, but it is a good game overall. Try getting him to run a "Core Rule Only" setting for a bit (sometimes called "vanilla D&D").

The other major problem is he either is way too lucky in his NPC rolls or he likes his NPCs too much. I had this problem when I started DMing as well. I got over this by not rolling up any NPC but by using a preset group of numbers and modifing them by racial mods only. Try getting your DM to go with using the "Scrub set" (11,11,11,10,10,10) for filler NPCs and the "Pro set" (15,14,13,12,11,10) for noteworthy NPCs. The using of set numbers prevents any attachment and (usually) makes the players a touch better at the same level so that the NPCs can callenge the PCs without crushing them.

There are other minor things: limit PCs for players to 1 (or 2 if group is small), go with "core" classes, keep the CRs low enough to survive, but these can be corrected after the major problems are fixed and could just take care of themselves.

If the DM is good at storytelling, there should be no need to run away from this game. All DMs go through a learning curve. I went from one of the worst to one of the better DMs because I was open to suggestions from my players. If your DM will listen, I'm sure he will as well.

And if he won't listen...Run fast, run far and when you think you've run far enough, run some more.

CharPixie
2007-03-19, 01:19 PM
Okay, in his defense, the '5 foot step does not avoid an AOO' is a common house rule. Just like critical misses and the like. And since it sounds like he isn't playing D&D strictly by the rules, that's fine. It's harder to play an archer under a rule like that, but that's fine. I have. It's not the end of the world; more, it's just harder to not switch weapons once the enemy close. Which is part of the intention.

That and Defensive Casting DCs aren't that harder to make, especially if you take the namesake feat, and perhaps Skill Focus.

As for what he's doing wrong; come up with a list of why you and the other players don't enjoy the game. Keep it relatively short. Put things like Always Dying in there. Then, give reasons why it makes the game no fun. Let him know that you don't want to avoid lethality on the whole, but that you don't want to die ALL the time. Tell him it's no fun if you always die it doesn't feel heroic. Don't give him specifics. Don't tell him that he needs to lower the CR to your level, or anything like that. Just give him a unambigious, united, and clear message what it is that you and your group don't enjoy about the games. Give him a chance to change on his own, while he has a hardcopy list of the things which kill the game for you all.

Here's a few suggestions of what your group can do as players.

Take classes by the RAW. Thank him kindly for the offer, but say you want to stick to something easier. Making a class that isn't completely wacky or sad is hard; there's a lot of variables in design. Personally, I'd rather just stick it with RAW classes, or perhaps add a slight ability if it's agreed that a class suffers at certain levels.

Play one character. The more characters there are, the more lethal the game is for the same CRs. You have higher chances of critting and higher odds of a single character being hit 3 or 4 times in a turn. Once you get to ten characters, it's hard not to get out of a challenging fight without a fatality. If you, as players, decide to only play one character, then you, as players, fix this problem.

And finally, number 4. Refusing to go on a quest is one thing, but "jobbing" around for anything to do? You are asking your DM to improvise right then and there. It's not an easy thing to do; and if the DM has ever played CRPGs, then the 'fetch my laundry from the goblin laundromat' style 'quest' can come to mind readily. You can ask your DM to have alternative quests prepared so that you can wuss out in style -- that's more work for him, and if he is a working man, that might be asking a lot -- or you can spend your effort seeing if there's an alternative way of accomplishing the presented quest, instead of going door-to-door asking if anyone needs their laundry fetched. That allows your DM to improvise within established bounds, let's him use the material he's familiar with, and trains him on the sly to present challenges to his players in a better way.

KoDT69
2007-03-19, 09:38 PM
I started in AD&D at the age of 14. I loved it from the start. I had 2 co-DM's that were both creative and masterful storytellers. The only issue was ALL THE HOUSE RULES kinda made it hard to determine what was RAW and what was not. About 6 months into our regular campaign, real life took over both of them and they were rarely available. At the time I was collecting sourcebooks like mad with every allowance and had nuttin but time to read them cover to cover. My brother knew this and decided to nominate me as the new DM to take over the campaign. I quickly got a feel for the RAW style and re-adopted the former DM house rules as I saw necessary. The focus was always on fun though. It never mattered that when I joined the first time they were all dual-class 20/20 or higher characters and mine was like fighter 9/thief 6. The former DM made sure we were all equal and every encounter fun and challenging. Sure, how many fudged rolls or biffed monster stats did it take? Who cares, it was fun. I carried that mentality with me through the years and my current group really likes my willingness for strange or new ideas. Maybe the OP's DM could take this approach. :smallwink: