Making a level 7 Rogue

[ProphetofMuffin]

Hello everyone i am about to start my first evil campaign as a rogue and everyone is starting out at lvl 7. I've never made a character above first level nor have i played a rogue or a evil campaign.

I picked a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk because a small sneaky character that uses poison sounds like a lot of fun. but other then that i'm not real sure how to build or gear the character. Rogue/Monk sounds like it could be a great deal of fun. Any ideas and suggestions are welcome it's doesn't have Rogue/Monk or even a Rogue anything sneaky will be cool. No psi characters, nothing insanely broken or multiclass i can get away with 3 multiclasses maybe 4 but serious roll playing will be required.

[Pilo]

Have you considered Beguiler, it is sneaky, with spells, but no SA, until you go in Unseen seer prc.

Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Unseen seerX could be a nice build, telepathy is a nice thing to have.

Monk is a bad idea fluffwise, a LE rogue will have a moral issue with theft.

Poison use is a big plus, so try to put a few points in craft poison (so you can have them cheaper) or have a familiar that has poison (Snake, scorpion) and buy a shortbow to use it.

At level 3 pick power word pain as your expended knowledge spell.

[ProphetofMuffin]

I haven't thought of that i will certainly give it a look.

[Extra Anchovies]

Rogue/Monk is kinda weak, because you lose out on SA progression. If you want to go unarmed, pick up Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st level, and Superior Unarmed Strike at sixth. Also be sure to pick up the Penetrating Strike ACF to help negate SA immunity.

[infomatic]

Poison Dusk Lizardfolk have some great art, but some big drawbacks, too:

• +1 Level Adjustment (So you're really a Rogue 6)
• Poor Weapon Familiarity feature
•*Hide bonus only works when most skin is exposed -- could set up DM arguments over armor use.


The natural weapons are nice, especially at low levels, but once you start getting magic weapons you'll want to use those instead of your claws. Poison Use is another nice trick, but Poison is expensive unless you have reliable access to a caster.

Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling both have better options and no LA — and tacking on the +1 LA Dark Template (Tome of Magic) makes them ridiculous.

As noted, don't use Monk.

[ProphetofMuffin]

Okay i'll drop the monk idea but i like the flavor of the Lizardfolk just to much to drop it. That being said any good ideas/builds to make to sucker work it doesn't have to be optimal but just fun and survivable to a degree.

[gorfnab]

This handbook contains lots of information for Rogue based builds:
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

What kind of Rogue do you want to build (skill master, melee, ranged, caster, etc.)?

[ProphetofMuffin]

I have no idea i've never played one before, i was leaning toward melee or ranged but honestly no clue.

[infomatic]

Well, definitely check out the handbook. Also the Poisoner's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0).

Note that you may not need rogue at all, if all you're looking for is sneaky and poison use. A couple ideas:

Ranger4/Scout2 with Swift Hunter feat. Ranged concept. Pick a SpindleSpitter Dinosaur for its blinding poison and harvest that.

Ranger1 Trapfinding Variant/Unarmored SwordSage Variant into Bloodclaw Master and/or ShadowSun Ninja). Still sneaky, focuses on claw attacks

[ProphetofMuffin]

Ohh yeah great handbooks, melee looks fantastic aside from that fact that i'm a bit worried about being creamed and poison doesn't seem to scale real great. Gonna keep digging and see what i can do. I don't think my DM will allow dino pets but i will ask.

[Petrocorus]

Hello everyone i am about to start my first evil campaign as a rogue and everyone is starting out at lvl 7. I've never made a character above first level nor have i played a rogue or a evil campaign.

Team Evil: A Growth Industry! We're Always Hiring!



I picked a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk because a small sneaky character that uses poison sounds like a lot of fun. but other then that i'm not real sure how to build or gear the character.

What book are they from?


Rogue/Monk sounds like it could be a great deal of fun. Any ideas and suggestions are welcome it's doesn't have Rogue/Monk or even a Rogue anything sneaky will be cool. No psi characters, nothing insanely broken or multiclass i can get away with 3 multiclasses maybe 4 but serious roll playing will be required.

What books are allowed? What may be the other characters in the party? What level are you going to play up to?

Monk make great 2-lvl dip in some build, not very much with the rogue. It doesn't give interesting proficiencies, skills or abilities that synergise with the rogue, except for the saves.


Have you considered Beguiler, it is sneaky, with spells, but no SA, until you go in Unseen seer prc.

IIRC, Unseen Seer does not give SA but only improves the one you already have.


Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Unseen seerX could be a nice build, telepathy is a nice thing to have.

Monk is a bad idea fluffwise, a LE rogue will have a moral issue with theft.


A character can be lawful and stealing, a lawful character can follow his own moral code.

[ProphetofMuffin]

The Poison Dusk is from Monster manual 3, and the only party members i know what are is a human sorcerer and a two weapon fighter/weapon master. We are just going to play until we all die/backstab each other or get bored. As aliment is concerned i was thinking NE but i am unsure. And restrictions are i have to of course meet the requirements to any prestige classes. And in his words basic classes are allowed, i'm not real sure what that means but i'm thinking no swordsage.

[Petrocorus]

The Poison Dusk is from Monster manual 3, and the only party members i know what are is a human sorcerer and a reo weapon fighter/weapon master. We are just going to play until we all die/backstab each other or get bored. As aliment is concerned i was thinking NE but i am unsure. And restrictions are i have to of course meet the requirements to any prestige classes. And in his words basic classes are allowed, i'm not real sure what that means but i'm thinking no swordsage.

I was going to mention Swordsage.
Is LA buy off possible?
How much are decided on the Lizardfolk? Did you chose it for the fluff?
Because as far as optimization go, Dark Whisper Gnome are much more stealthy for the same LA.

[ProphetofMuffin]

I did pick the race for the fluff, i've always wanted to play a lizard folk of some kind and it seemed like a fun sneaky guy. i don't know for certain if LA buy off is available but i believe it is.


Edit: LA buyoff is allowed.

[Petrocorus]

No discussion over the race, then.

About the build:
The best one would be Pilo's Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Unseen Seer X. A Beguiler should auto-qualify for Mindbender and easily for US. Note that straight Beguiler with only a Mindbender dip is fine too.

If no Beguiler, then Rogue 1 / Wizard 3 / Rogue +1 / US X. With the Mindbender dip later.

If you want to focus on melee and ranged SA, Rogue 1 / Fighter or Ranger 1 / Rogue +X
Fighter gives you all proficiencies and a bonus feat, ranger don't give armour proficiencies or a feat, but more skill and track/Urban Tracking plus Arcane Hunter ACF (from CM) can be good. And ranger is your favoured class. You can later PrC into Assassin, Ebonmar Infiltrator (City), etc..

Your can alternatively go Factotum. Factotum 7 or Factotum 6 / Ranger 1. As good as the previous build, less SA (you can however), but more versatility.

Another solution is to build an Artificer. Trapfinding and Open Lock / Disable Device are in-class. Stealth can be solved with Invisibility and Fly (or corresponding items), easily available at lvl 7. Even Overland Fly is available for a lvl 7 Arty. Personal Weapon Augmentation (bane) can replace SA.
And, as a T1 class, everything else can be done some way or another anyway. And again, a ranger dip or some 1-lvl PrC dip is always possible to get proficiencies or some feature. Straight Arty is pretty awesome already, though. Look at all the roguish Wondrous items you can make with a CL 9.


You can take a look at the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) and the Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er) from UA. Ranger can also get a Trapfinding ACF from Dungeonscape.

[Gwendol]

"Basic" classes? That sounds like a Core restricted game to me.

That said, rogue/shadowdancer 1/assassin X is rather cool, or continue rogue. You want HiPS!

A more elaborate fighting rogue would be rogue 3/swashbuckler 4 using the Daring Outlaw feat to stack levels for determining SA damage and Grace bonus.

For making the most of sneak attack you want TWF, Craven, the Penetrating Strike ACF, and ideally HiPS.

[ProphetofMuffin]

Swashbuckler sounds interesting, as does a artificer or a ranged frenzy rage barb dip in the rogue guidebook maybe multiclass further with ranger so i can milk a dino for poison. So many ways to hurt people.I think giving that we already have a two weapon fighter i might just try a range build of some description. I am going to ask my DM about the Beguiler build because i've not really considered a mage rogue.

[Petrocorus]

I just thought, you can also go Trapfinding Ranger 1 / Warlock X

The Warlock invocations Fell Flight and Walk Unseen will cover the stealth issues, the ranger ACF gives Open Lock / Disable device (and Saves) and some other invocations, notably Blast Essence ones, gives some kind of poisonous effect and so fit you fluff.

You really have a lot of possibilities actually. It depend on what would be the level of optimization of the party, the specific roles OOC and IC you want to fill, and what are the other members of the party. To make a better informed choice, you need to get some more info from your DM and fellow players, and what classes and PrC are allowed.

You noticed we don't recommend straight rogue, because rogue have 3 main set of skills. Traps, Stealth and SA.
Stealth can easily be reproduced by two low level spells. And equivalent items and SLA. Making Rogue's stealth obsolete as soon as lvl 5. And SA can be acquired elsewhere or reproduced by some other abilities (Spells, Eldritch Blast, Bane weapons, Iaijutsu Focus, Maneuvers, etc), making it not an exclusivity of the rogue. Only an rogue optimised to use it will really make a lot of damage. Only Trapfinding remains, and that too can be done by Scout, Ranger, Artificer, if less well. That's why the rogue is only T4 and is not recommended without multiclassing.

Of course, if the backstabbing between PC you mentioned is a real possibility, you may want to be more powerful than your fellow players. :smallbiggrin:

[infomatic]

If it's Core-only classes (but stuff on feats, etc. from other books is OK) then Rogue3/Barbarian2/Assassin2 (with Whirling Frenzy ACF and Lion Totem for pounce on the Barb. side and Penetrating Strike ACF on the Rogue side) would work nicely. Bbn1/Rogue4/Asn2 if you don't care about multiclassing penalties). Feats: Weapon Finesse, Multiattack, Craven. BAB +5, Sneak Attack 3d6+7, some spell use.

If core+completes for ranged, then Ranger4/Scout3. Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Swift Hunter (Plus Track, Rapid Shot). BAB +6, Skirmish +2d6/+2AC. Swindlespitter animal companion.

[Rebel7284]

Factotum from Dungeonscape is an amazing rogue-like class. As it says on the box, they do a little of everything, but especially master skills.
A little bit of arcane casting.
A little bit of healing.
ALL skills as class skills.
INT modifier to all your Dex/Str skills all the time.
Use some inspiration points that you get every encounter to add INT to attack/damage/armor class.
Use inspiration point to get lots of sneak attack.
At level 8 (so soon!) you can get extra actions! One of the best things ever in D&D.

Otherwise, a beguiler or rogue/wizard/unseen seer OR spellthief/wizard/unseen seer get great skills that they can back up with spells. As is usual in D&D, the wizard version is more powerful in the long run as wizard casting is amazing.

[Sith_Happens]

If you want to go straight Rogue, one thing you'll definitely want to do is have the Dark Creature template. Note that you want the Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave version, though if you can't get your hand on that book it's identical to the Tome of Magic version except its Hide in Plain Sight is (Su) and obviates the need for cover or concealment in addition to letting you hide while observed (ask your DM to okay the change). Since you're starting at ECL 7 you can have the first point of a +2 LA already bought off, making you a Dark Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Rogue 6.

The following two feats are mandatory if the books are available or your DM is okay with using reliable internet sources:

1. Craven (Champions of Ruin): Sneak Attack deals additional damage equal to your character level.

2. Darkstalker (Lords of Madness): Negates blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense unless the creatures using them beat the higher of your Hide and Move Silently checks.

The usual recommendation for melee as a Rogue is two-weapon fighting, but I imagine that Curmudgeon will be here shortly to tell you that it's not worth the feat cost and unless you're willing to take a level of Cleric for Travel Devotion I'm inclined to agree. Instead, keep a bow at the ready and use it for the first round of combat (against whichever enemies are still flat-footed, of course) before moving to flank on the second round. Make sure to take the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape (replaces Trap Sense), which lets you deal half your Sneak Attack dice when flanking a creature normally immune to Sneak Attack.

Lastly, make sure to have maximum ranks in Use Magic Device. There's so much you can do with the right scrolls and wands.

[ProphetofMuffin]

Factotum,Warlock and Beguiler isn't allowed but scout is and am leaning that way, while i would love to play a ranger/scout and have a pet dino i've not had one before and worry about keeping the lil bugger alive.

Were all to play this sight unseen, that is without knowing each others builds/characters to much. The others playing are a human sorcerer and human two weapon fighter/weapon master.

Since i may have to fight my fellow pc's what is a great all round ranged build?

[Sith_Happens]

Since i may have to fight my fellow pc's what is a great all round ranged build?

The aforementioned Scout/Ranger, with the Swift Hunter feat so Ranger levels progress Skirmish and either Greater Manyshot or a Cleric dip with Travel Devotion so you can make more than one Skirmish attack per turn.

Alternatively, the Dark Rogue build I described above can eventually have a high enough Hide check to shoot people without being seen by them as a result.

[ProphetofMuffin]

My character is done, i'd like to thanks everyone here for helping. After many hours talking to the DM i settled on a level 4 rogue/ 2 swashbuckler.

Name: Gyosil

Str:10
Dex:20
Con:17
Int:16
Wis:14
Cha:11

Gave him penetrating Strike and arcane stunt with expeditious retreat.
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Darkstalker and Daring Outlaw. I was going to pick Craven for it's massive dam boost but i was told for this campaign it would be a bad idea with the -2 to fear checks.

The DM allows my camo skin with leather armor. I gave him a kukri and a rapier.

I don't know if this is the best build but i'm happy with it and you all have givin me a lot of great ideas for tricksters to come so thanks once again. And as always any advice will be very much welcome.