When a player gets too far.

[Yael]

I've been DM'ing a 3.X game two months by now, and everything has gone just fine. They reached 8th level and are approaching the final arc of the campaign. One of my players, let's call him R, has a Jungle Troll Barbarian Fighter, he has been a normal powerhouse within the campaign, but he got a combo so strong that I can't handle as a DM without putting him down metagaming.

His character has regeneration (troll-blooded plus the Jungle Troll base race from a Warcraft source, I checked it at character creation and it was fine), and entered a prestige class that ignores nonlethal damage, and any lethal damage is converted into non-lethal (but not ignored this way) while in-rage. R deals mediocre damage because he knows that I'm not that of an expert DM and he limited himself, but in any case, nothing I send him can harm him, especially because he took the feat to delay any effect into him, allowing the cleric to dispel it next turn. I don't remember which prestige class it is, but I saw it before he took it. Thing is, I didn't think of it until it came into play.

I can't deal enough damage and he has a 1% chance of being granted an AC of 40 and DR 20/Adamantine because of roleplaying reasons.

Is too bad to take him out? I talked with him, and he told me that if I think his character is that of a threat, I could take him out, but he won't let it slide easily, his character won't give up, but "No hard feelings, I know what that feels, Yael." he told me. Now I don't know if should I try to metagame with a wizard that has been following the party for revenge, preparing the right spells just to kill him immediatly and cancel everything he can do, or setting the situation where he gets killed (which would result in a TPK, they are inside a castle where Chaturan are used as guards and elite soldiers, which I personally advanced as a set to a CR of 16).


I don't like to kill your PCs,
I DO, however, punish you for their mistakes,
I am no "charity DM", they have their ways to get out, as characters and players, mechanics and thought,
but I tend to go easy if the challenge was too hard.
So expect no mercy if you were the one who laughed at the Gangster Leader's ugly nose in front of him.


- Yael Balderrama, sometime within this game.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I can't deal enough damage and he has a 10% chance of being granted an AC of 40 and DR 20/Adamantine because of roleplaying reasons.


I think I'd like to address what the unholy left buttcheek of Orcus THIS is all about, first.

Because if anyone, player or DM, came to me and asked if they could have that/give a player that, the look I'd give them would send them clear through the nearest wall.

[Malak'ai]

I agree. That's close, if not Epic level DR, and AC 40 is way better than an ECL character shoukd be able to achieve without a mountain of chedder.
Address these and you shouldn't have as many problems.

[eggynack]

The real issue seems to be that weird spell stalling effect, because I have no idea what it is. Without that, you could just handle him by, y'know, casting spells at him. That doesn't even need to mean death. It could just mean that sometimes he ends up stuck in a web for a combat. It could also yes mean death, because SoD spells are a thing. Damage immunity is great stuff, but it doesn't stop anything. So, figure out what the hell that thing stalling thing is, because it sounds wonky as hell.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Frankly, I'd just start having my goons rely more on bypassing him entirely. The unkillable troll sounds like it would become rather renowned rather quickly - but at the same time, all his tactics involve delaying the fight until his party members can solve it.

- High defenses, low damage, low threat;
- Spell delaying effects require party members to dispel them before they stick;
- Even with the invincibility cheese you've RPed into the character, you can probably whittle him down or force him to retreat / die in a blaze of glory without backup.

I don't even think you need to cheese your CRs or encounter levels too badly. Instead, try using a combination of battlefield-control specialists, tanks, and fast strikers. Tanks engage the troll and waste his time, BC specialists divide him from his support mechanism, fast strikers engage his caster support.

You don't really need to metagame that, but it would be good to have some in-game explanation for why enemy forces start behaving more tactically like this. Divination magics, or just rumors, are both fine explanations.

[Firest Kathon]

You could also look at non-spell non-damage effects to lock him down, such as grapple (even via Black Tentacles or summons), (su) effects (which may or may not be delayed by his strange ability, but cannot be dispelled) etc.

[eggynack]

Frankly, I'd just start having my goons rely more on bypassing him entirely. The unkillable troll sounds like it would become rather renowned rather quickly - but at the same time, all his tactics involve delaying the fight until his party members can solve it.

- High defenses, low damage, low threat;
- Spell delaying effects require party members to dispel them before they stick;
- Even with the invincibility cheese you've RPed into the character, you can probably whittle him down or force him to retreat / die in a blaze of glory without backup.

I don't even think you need to cheese your CRs or encounter levels too badly. Instead, try using a combination of battlefield-control specialists, tanks, and fast strikers. Tanks engage the troll and waste his time, BC specialists divide him from his support mechanism, fast strikers engage his caster support.

You don't really need to metagame that, but it would be good to have some in-game explanation for why enemy forces start behaving more tactically like this. Divination magics, or just rumors, are both fine explanations.
That's a good plan. Even with this stalling whatever, the troll is really vulnerable to spell effects if the opponents target the cleric and/or other casters before taking him on. If the troll doesn't have a way to draw fire, which he likely doesn't, then not acting like he does would make a solid first step towards making things run smooth.

[Flame of Anor]

I think I'd like to address what the unholy left buttcheek of Orcus THIS is all about, first.

Because if anyone, player or DM, came to me and asked if they could have that/give a player that, the look I'd give them would send them clear through the nearest wall.

Yeah, I can't imagine a non-cheesy way to get AC 40 anywhere near level 8 without having taken mostly spellcasting levels.

[Yael]

Yeah, I can't imagine a non-cheesy way to get AC 40 anywhere near level 8 without having taken mostly spellcasting levels.

Stuff is that it is a "gift" from Nyarlathotep. He has to roll a d%, depending on the result, he gets an AC distortion because his skin was fused with adamantine.

From 1 to 50%, he gets no armor bonus from any source (his AC is 8 because of his low dex).
From 51% to 80%, he has normal AC.
From 81% to 90%, he gets DR 5/Adamantine.
From 91% to 99%, he has a +8 profane bonus to his AC, and gets DR 10/Adamantine.
If he scores a 100%, his existing AC (entire AC) doubles and he gets DR 20/Adamantine.

It's a rough change, but thanks to an effort, the Crawling Chaos got presence in the Infinite Staircase, so their reward was hard.

[lord_khaine]

I agree with the rest of the thread, if he is almost impossible to kill, then just ignore him.

Keep him occupied by tripping/grapling/disarming him, or by troublesome spells like Grease, black tentacles, web or walls.
Or focus some more attention on the cleric so that he would have trouble dispelling the troll?

Instead of challenging him with risk of death, make his challenge to protect the more squishy remaining parts of his party.

Of course alternatively, ½ the time his AC is 8, give a couple of brutes with big clubs power attack, and make them pound him into a bloody pulp, then spend the rest of the combat regenerating.

[prufock]

I would not get rid of the character, give him the option of rebuilding it at a more reasonable level of power.


His character has regeneration (troll-blooded plus the Jungle Troll base race from a Warcraft source, I checked it at character creation and it was fine), and entered a prestige class that ignores nonlethal damage, and any lethal damage is converted into non-lethal (but not ignored this way) while in-rage.
Regen is okay, but you can still get put down by nonlethal damage. Fire and acid still damage him normally, right?

From what I read, Jungle Troll is more powerful than an LA +0 race. Are you applying an LA to the character?

The real issue is the crossover with the prestige class. Ask him how he feels about applying a ruling that only damage that originated as nonlethal is ignored; damage that is lethal converted to nonlethal is not ignored. Give him the option to rebuild this part of his character since it may be the only reason he took this PrC.


nothing I send him can harm him, especially because he took the feat to delay any effect into him
I'm not familiar with this feat, so I'd need to know what it is.


I can't deal enough damage and he has a 10% chance of being granted an AC of 40 and DR 20/Adamantine because of roleplaying reasons.
This needs to go. "RP reasons" should be easy enough to counteract. Or just rebuild the mechanics of it with him. Having "adamantine-fused skin" shouldn't grant DR 20 when heavy adamantine armor only grants DR 3. I think you're mixing up damage reduction and hardness. Instead, either give him a flat DR 1, 2, or 3, or have him roll 1d4-1 each time he's hit to see how much damage he ignores. Grant him a flat natural armor bonus to go along with that. It will be much more sane.

I could see him rebuilding as a troll-blooded crusader. It gets a delayed damage pool, ways to heal, etc. Really, it would be kinder to work with him to tone it down rather than scrap the concept.

[KingSmitty]

The real issue seems to be that weird spell stalling effect, because I have no idea what it is. Without that, you could just handle him by, y'know, casting spells at him. That doesn't even need to mean death. It could just mean that sometimes he ends up stuck in a web for a combat. It could also yes mean death, because SoD spells are a thing. Damage immunity is great stuff, but it doesn't stop anything. So, figure out what the hell that thing stalling thing is, because it sounds wonky as hell.

mad foam rager, delays any attack or spell or the like for one round

[Red Fel]

What others have said. He took sources from Warcraft and built a WoW-style tank. The problem is that D&D lacks proper tanking mechanics. So once an enemy realizes (1) that this guy takes little or no damage, and (2) that this guy deals little or no damage, that enemy will likely ignore him in favor of squishier targets.

You mention that he's got AC and DR and such, and that's awesome against HP damage. (Again, how did you let it get that far? That's insane.) But it's useless against battlefield control, and if you have the party facing even one competent caster, his first order of business - as with any competent caster - should be hardcore lockdowns.

I'm not saying you need to single this guy out. I'm saying that a few encounters with enemies who can bypass his strengths (e.g. via battlefield control and lockdowns) and ignore his presence (e.g. via flight, tactical teleportation, maybe some DR of their own) will make him realize that being an indestructo-tank isn't going to get him very far.

[Phelix-Mu]

Is the stalling effect the Mad Foam Rager? Cause that is some pretty potent stuff at that level.

But I think it can be used only once per rage, and there should be a handful of spells that can outright end rage. Though he could seemingly delay that as well, and probably get a new rage going next round. Anyway, yes, separate him from the cleric. The best way to do this is either BFC or force one of them to retreat (or, as they enter an area, force one of them to slow down).

Even just archers with some coordinated fire stuff could probably lay down enough pain given time to force them into cover. Make the cover small and separate, like narrow pillars, so only one character can hide behind each.

If you need an archer, I'd just reskin arrow demons from MM3 to be celestials (it sounds like you are running an evil campaign), who fire shining bolts of doom that are actually just really special arrows (thus avoiding them being simply very pretty arrow demons). A handful of those could lock down a battlefield all by themselves, doubly so if you gave them flight (that would be worth at least +1 CR). Arrow demons also usually carry some unusual arrows, including adamantine ones, so they might be able to bypass his DR.


If you give us more of an idea about what creatures the party is up against, we can maybe point you to some template combos or abilities that might help in messing up the party's synergy.

[Yael]

I would not get rid of the character, give him the option of rebuilding it at a more reasonable level of power.

I think alike, but rebuilding/retraining isn't an option available from the start of the game.


Regen is okay, but you can still get put down by nonlethal damage. Fire and acid still damage him normally, right?

It is converted into nonlethal, hence ignored by regeneration.


From what I read, Jungle Troll is more powerful than an LA +0 race. Are you applying an LA to the character?

Yes, but it is a monster from World of Warcraft, with a LA of +1.


The real issue is the crossover with the prestige class. Ask him how he feels about applying a ruling that only damage that originated as nonlethal is ignored; damage that is lethal converted to nonlethal is not ignored. Give him the option to rebuild this part of his character since it may be the only reason he took this PrC.

Because no retrain was allowed from the start, I don't know how a rebuild could happen. Maybe a trip to Gates of Dawn?


I'm not familiar with this feat, so I'd need to know what it is.

Mad Foam Rager, PHB2 p, 80.

EDIT: Swordsage'd for the first time in my life D:


This needs to go. "RP reasons" should be easy enough to counteract. Or just rebuild the mechanics of it with him. Having "adamantine-fused skin" shouldn't grant DR 20 when heavy adamantine armor only grants DR 3. I think you're mixing up damage reduction and hardness. Instead, either give him a flat DR 1, 2, or 3, or have him roll 1d4-1 each time he's hit to see how much damage he ignores. Grant him a flat natural armor bonus to go along with that. It will be much more sane.

This is brilliant. I will keep his AC doubled, because that was all he asked by himself, but the DR will get definitely nerfed, the 1d4-1 seems quite the fix, here.


I could see him rebuilding as a troll-blooded crusader. It gets a delayed damage pool, ways to heal, etc. Really, it would be kinder to work with him to tone it down rather than scrap the concept.

I don't, he may keep barbarian, he doesn't like ToB classes that much.


Is the stalling effect the Mad Foam Rager? Cause that is some pretty potent stuff at that level.

But I think it can be used only once per rage, and there should be a handful of spells that can outright end rage. Though he could seemingly delay that as well, and probably get a new rage going next round. Anyway, yes, separate him from the cleric. The best way to do this is either BFC or force one of them to retreat (or, as they enter an area, force one of them to slow down).

Even just archers with some coordinated fire stuff could probably lay down enough pain given time to force them into cover. Make the cover small and separate, like narrow pillars, so only one character can hide behind each.

If you need an archer, I'd just reskin arrow demons from MM3 to be celestials (it sounds like you are running an evil campaign), who fire shining bolts of doom that are actually just really special arrows (thus avoiding them being simply very pretty arrow demons). A handful of those could lock down a battlefield all by themselves, doubly so if you gave them flight (that would be worth at least +1 CR). Arrow demons also usually carry some unusual arrows, including adamantine ones, so they might be able to bypass his DR.


If you give us more of an idea about what creatures the party is up against, we can maybe point you to some template combos or abilities that might help in messing up the party's synergy.

This helps, by the way, they used to fight celestials and archons. By this time, lovecraftian creatures spawned in the Material Plane (from the Far Realm) and even when they were summoned by Nyaruko-san, they are attacking everything, so yeah.

In other news, Nyaruko-chama assassinated Asmodeus and placed himself as the ruler of Baator under the face of Asmodeus, so Hell/Far Realm stuff is up to teh order. Also, the Infinite Staircase fell under Nyarlathotep's control, so most lesser planes are under his comands (pocket planes, and low-in-positive-energy planes.

[prufock]

mad foam rager, delays any attack or spell or the like for one round
It's an immediate action, so it only works 1/round. Also only works when raging. Simple solution is to cast more than 1 spell on him in a round.

[Barstro]

It's been said, but it bears repeating; characters that are Glass Cannons are broken only for as long as the DM allows the cannon part to exist without attacking the glass part. Ergo, if a character is giving you problems, just go after his weakness.

Here, you have the more interesting opposite of a glass cannon; a brick wall. There is no good way to stop him, but you can make him useless. Ignore his low damage output and just go for the other party. Trip, grapple, debuff, reduce. Wall him off. The "true" way to do this is to get a quick TPK by ignoring him. But that's punishing the rest of the team for relying on the brick wall (which is fair, but kind of mean). Rush and capture the team, ignore him, and flood the chamber with lava. Team is captured but safe and he is dead.

I think it's great that he has given you permission to kill his character, if you can. Now you have the opportunity to come up with some fun strategy just like a BBEG would. Just be sure it's in character and doesn't rely on any underhanded tricks.

[prufock]

I think alike, but rebuilding/retraining isn't an option available from the start of the game.


Because no retrain was allowed from the start, I don't know how a rebuild could happen. Maybe a trip to Gates of Dawn?
Why not? You're the DM, aren't you? Just tell him that his character is too powerful for this campaign and suggest he change a few things around. To the abyss with the roleplaying requirement. "Hey, pal, your build is really too much. Can we work together to tone it down?" This doesn't have to be done in character.


It is converted into nonlethal, hence ignored by regeneration.
Well I'm not sure what prestige class this is, so I can't really comment. Further evidence that this prestige class is the problem.


This is brilliant. I will keep his AC doubled, because that was all he asked by himself, but the DR will get definitely nerfed, the 1d4-1 seems quite the fix, here.
Glad to help!

[Phelix-Mu]

So, stick half-farspawn on everything. Assuming you were saying the party is also fighting stuff from the Far Realm. If not, substitute other template and atmospherics as appropriate.

Half-farspawn nymph: Refluff blinding beauty to be Atrocious Visage, and use these as casters. Let them cast off of their Charisma for even more fun. I'd picture them as being a mix between Twi'lek and the girl from Species.

Half-farspawn Legion Devils: FC2, really good for soaking up damage. Use in formation, and preferably using some kind of mass energy resistance to offset likely spell damage.

Half-farspawn Green Slaad: Good for blasting, not sure if the CR might be a tad high, though. Add tentacles and insect-like mouths for more atmospherics. Have them talk in a weird accent (Russian?).

Half-farspawn earth elementals: Refluff to be aberrations, make them enemies that can phase in and out of the ground, good BFC, especially if the big ones use their bodies to separate the characters. I'd have them just look like giant tentacles.

[Doctor Awkward]

I had a game once where a player did something similar. He started with the Wendigo template which, among other things, gives you the Cold Subtype and Regeneration 10 to fire or somesuch. He then played a cleric and entered the Bone Knight (http://dndtools.eu/classes/bone-knight/) prestige class, which gave him most of the undead traits, among them immunity to non-lethal damage (and ability damage, instant death, level drain, etc). EDIT: And THEN he paid a few thousand gold for the ritual from Savage Species that granted him the Fire Subtype (immunity to fire damage).


Here are a couple of the ways I dealt with him.

-Trollbane poison (Dungeonscape, pg 90): It's an injury poison applied to slashing or piercing weapons. It causes creatures struck to lose the benefit of their regeneration for that attack. Costs 90g per vial.

-Graymantle (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/graymantle--4559/): Suppresses the effects of any regeneration or fast healing for one round per level. Fort save negates.

-Searing Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/searing-spell--2540/)/Piercing Cold (http://dndtools.eu/feats/frostburn--68/piercing-cold--2161/): Applied to spells with the Fire or Cold descriptor, respectively. Any creature that would normally be immune to the damage from one of those spells instead takes half damage (or one quarter damage if it allows a save). Apply judiciously to any blaster wizard or sorcerer, along with energy substitution, and laugh. Remember that blasting is only bad for players, who have limited actions and resources.

-Battlefield Control: Mad Foam Rager (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/mad-foam-rager--1814/) only carries you so far. Note that it requires an immediate action to use, so he can't activate it while flat-footed, and it only functions ONCE per given rage. Throwing two or more spells, attacks, or effects, at him in the same round takes care of any concerns that ability might cause. This is another feat that is far more useful to NPC's that It is to players. If he can't move or act, he's even less of a threat.

-Level drain, ability damage, and other debilitating effects should also help you just fine, since your guy doesn't have nearly the laundry list of immunities mine did. Remember Mad Foam Rager ignores only ONE effect.

And finally, as other's have already suggested:

-Ignore him. If he is impossible to kill and does pitiful damage, there are surely far better targets for the enemies to go after first. He wouldn't be hard to restrain if he's by himself. I joked with my player that he was likely going to become the sealed evil that will be released in a future campaign.

[Mirakk]

Wow, you really painted yourself into a corner, didn't you? Go big or go home, I guess.

I suggest you take the guy out of the fight entirely. It seems like his abilities are all centered on survivability. Put him in a situation where surviving isn't going to be of much use. Try putting him in a Resilient Sphere, or walling him off with Wall of Force. Otherwise, I'd second what lord_khaine said, and make his challenge centered on keeping his friends alive as you try to wreck them instead.

Or, if you really want to get rid of the problem permanently:

Expounding on someone else's idea here. Set up something like this. Put a monster in the room. Something he'll obviously want to melee. This is a great way to draw people off of trying to search for traps. When he charges in, he triggers a trap that puts up a wall of force to separate him from the group. Then, you put a puzzle on the opposite side his friends will need to solve in order to release him. It involves several levers and a pattern on the wall. The levers need to be placed in the OPPOSITE position of what is displayed on the wall, creating a symmetrical pattern. However, they'll likely figure they need to copy the pattern, which floods the chamber on the other side with lava.

It's fair, because you gave him an out, but the party is the one who pulled the levers, absolving you of some of the blame. Show the sheet with your notes detailing where the trap is, what it does, and how to solve the puzzle.

You can also use that idea for a non-lethal method of walling him off from the rest of the encounter to make things more interesting, if you don't want to kill him, but don't want him soloing the encounter with the BBEG.

[Urpriest]

Pretty sure you have to be human to take the Troll-Blooded feat, though of course as a DM you may have houseruled around that.

I'll second the others here that the best way to deal with this character is to hamper rather than kill. Mad Foam Rager won't block effects that aren't targeted (or if it can, you've got an "I Iron Heart Surge the Sun" situation), and it won't block more than one effect per rage. It won't get him through a Web, or a Wall of Sand. So you've got a decent range of options that still respect the "I am basically immune to damage" angle.

[eggynack]

As has been noted, it looks like the solution to mad foam rager is to just, y'know, cast two spells. If you want to go at him directly, that's the way to do it. You could even use multiple weaker casters instead of a single great one. Alternatively, it's not entirely clear what "used against you" means. It looks like he can be hit indirectly through the use of stuff like wall of stone and the like, which could help a bunch.

[daremetoidareyo]

What is his will save?

plane shift him into the etherial/paraelemental plane of acid.

Attack the group with phase spiders all day long.

level drain, constitution drain.

baleful blink cast on him

heightened baleful transposition+blockade: move him behind a wooden wall after swapping him with your invisible familiar behind the party.

Ninja with a ring of dimension door

An ogre/golem with an oversized bag of holding hiding in ambush