resistance + Abjurer's Arcane Ward

[Morukai]

If this has been addressed elsewhere, I haven't seen it.

Let's say I'm playing an Abjurer Wizard, and I have my Arcane Ward up and cast Blade Ward. Before the end of my next turn, I get smacked with an attack that causes piercing damage.

Which applies first, the Arcane Ward or the Blade Ward?

In other words, if I have 10 "HP" on the Arcane Ward, and get hit for a 16 damage piercing attack, does the Arcane Ward absorb 10, leaving 6 which is then halved, or do we half the damage first, leaving 8 damage to apply to the Arcane Ward and 2 "HP" left on it?

[Z3ro]

I believe the standard is to apply first, then halve. A barbarian with heavy armor mastery is usually brought up, but I believe it would apply to this situation too.

ETA: Yup, page 197 of the PHB cleary specifies that "Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage", then goes on to explain damage is first reduced, then halved.

[edge2054]

The wording of Arcane Ward states that when you take damage the ward takes it instead. The wording of resistance states that damage against the target is halved.

In this instance I would say that the damage is resolved, when you take it, the ward takes it instead.

So resistance and everything else, then ward.

Granted, my reading may be biased by the fact that abjurers, in addition to having several spells that grant resistance, also get resistance to all spell damage at level 14. If resistance isn't applied to Arcane Ward the power would really suck.

[Yagyujubei]

The wording of Arcane Ward states that when you take damage the ward takes it instead. The wording of resistance states that damage against the target is halved.

In this instance I would say that the damage is resolved, when you take it, the ward takes it instead.

So resistance and everything else, then ward.

Granted, my reading may be biased by the fact that abjurers, in addition to having several spells that grant resistance, also get resistance to all spell damage at level 14. If resistance isn't applied to Arcane Ward the power would really suck.

agreed, i believe dmg is halved fist and then hits the ward

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, page 197 is pretty clear. It even gives the exact example! Not bad, PHB, not bad.

[Morukai]

Yeah, page 197 is pretty clear. It even gives the exact example! Not bad, PHB, not bad.

Except that page and example don't apply to this situation because "Resistance... [is] applied after all other modifiers to damage", and the Arcane Ward isn't modifying any damage, it's absorbing it. The example given speaks of an aura that reduces damage, not absorbs it.

[pwykersotz]

Except that page and example don't apply to this situation because "Resistance... [is] applied after all other modifiers to damage", and the Arcane Ward isn't modifying any damage, it's absorbing it. The example given speaks of an aura that reduces damage, not absorbs it.

I believe you are making a distinction that does not exist in the rules, created with an overly-literal reading of the descriptive words. It's very similar to the argument that you can add 9th level Wizard spells to your spellbook and cast them with a single dip at high level. The level of granularity is different between how the rules were written and how your parsing them. The damage is modified, you take half up to a certain point.

Still, I see nothing that exists as a hard contradiction to your interpretation. More power to you if you run/play that way. :smallsmile:

[Z3ro]

Except that page and example don't apply to this situation because "Resistance... [is] applied after all other modifiers to damage", and the Arcane Ward isn't modifying any damage, it's absorbing it. The example given speaks of an aura that reduces damage, not absorbs it.

Just to pedantically point out; if you absorbe the damage, you have modifyied it. It can be both. I believe you are highlighting a distinction without a difference.

[Easy_Lee]

Just to pedantically point out; if you absorbe the damage, you have modifyied it. It can be both. I believe you are highlighting a distinction without a difference.

The ward has HP and takes damage. It's not reducing or modifying it in any way, just redirecting it away from the player. The only way you could argue that resistance does not apply is if the ward does not share the player's resistance. Since the ward is attached to the player, the only point in making such an argument would be to nerf the build and tick off the player.

Neither the book nor common human decency support the argument that resistance comes last for players with arcane ward.

[edge2054]

In addition to what Easy_Lee just pointed out.

The Ward takes damage when you do. Resistance is resolved before damage is applied. It's a very basic order of operations problem.

Wizard is hit for 12 damage. Resistance halves it. Damage is applied. Ward takes the hit.

[Z3ro]

The ward has HP and takes damage. It's not reducing or modifying it in any way, just redirecting it away from the player. The only way you could argue that resistance does not apply is if the ward does not share the player's resistance. Since the ward is attached to the player, the only point in making such an argument would be to nerf the build and tick off the player.

Neither the book nor common human decency support the argument that resistance comes last for players with arcane ward.

I don't see anywhere in the description that says it shares your resistances; I don't see any particularly compelling reason it would. It's a distinct, seperate peice of magic with it's own HP, why would it share your resistances?


In addition to what Easy_Lee just pointed out.

The Ward takes damage when you do. Resistance is resolved before damage is applied. It's a very basic order of operations problem.

Wizard is hit for 12 damage. Resistance halves it. Damage is applied. Ward takes the hit.

The PHB doesn't actually specifiy that. It merely states that "If a creature or an object has resistance to a damage type, damage of that type is halved against it." In keeping with most 5E rules, it never actually breaks down the precise order of application. I would argue that, intuitively, resistance and application of damage occur simultaneously. Thus the ward would take damage (see above) then you do, which resistance applies to.

[Easy_Lee]

I would argue that, intuitively, resistance and application of damage occur simultaneously. Thus the ward would take damage (see above) then you do, which resistance applies to.

Consider it from a mechanical perspective, then. Resistance is a class feature of abjurers. Class mechanics are supposed to work together with one another. Your interpretation treats these mechanics as working in a vacuum and having absolutely nothing to do with each other. And in addition to that, it would anger the abjurer player.

In short, your interpretation is not good for the game. Rather than try to think of ways to limit player power just because you can, perhaps you should consider what effect such limitations have on the quality of the game. In other words, don't be an evil God, or your players will get up and find a better reality to play in.

[pwykersotz]

The ward has HP and takes damage. It's not reducing or modifying it in any way, just redirecting it away from the player. The only way you could argue that resistance does not apply is if the ward does not share the player's resistance. Since the ward is attached to the player, the only point in making such an argument would be to nerf the build and tick off the player.

Neither the book nor common human decency support the argument that resistance comes last for players with arcane ward.

That was uncalled for. We're having a discussion. It's supposed to be fun, interesting, and informative.


In addition to what Easy_Lee just pointed out.

The Ward takes damage when you do. Resistance is resolved before damage is applied. It's a very basic order of operations problem.

Wizard is hit for 12 damage. Resistance halves it. Damage is applied. Ward takes the hit.

The order of operations is very specifically overwritten here. It's to keep this very kind of confusion from happening.

[edge2054]

The PHB doesn't actually specifiy that. It merely states that "If a creature or an object has resistance to a damage type, damage of that type is halved against it." In keeping with most 5E rules, it never actually breaks down the precise order of application. I would argue that, intuitively, resistance and application of damage occur simultaneously. Thus the ward would take damage (see above) then you do, which resistance applies to.

The arcane ward ability states that 'Whenever you take damage, the ward takes it instead.'

Damage Resistance and Vulnerability states 'Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage...

The 25 damage is first reduced by 5 and then halved, so the creature takes 10 damage.'

Note that last line. The damage is reduced then halved, so it takes 10 damage. You do not take damage until after resistance is applied. The Ward triggers when you take damage.

Again...

Damage is reduced by half. You take damage. When you take damage, the ward takes it instead.

[Z3ro]

Consider it from a mechanical perspective, then. Resistance is a class feature of abjurers. Class mechanics are supposed to work together with one another. Your interpretation treats these mechanics as working in a vacuum and having absolutely nothing to do with each other. And in addition to that, it would anger the abjurer player.

In short, your interpretation is not good for the game. Rather than try to think of ways to limit player power just because you can, perhaps you should consider what effect such limitations have on the quality of the game. In other words, don't be an evil God, or your players will get up and find a better reality to play in.

But the rules for things like resistance do exist in a vacuum; there isn't a note on the abjurer saying those rules change for the class. While you are certainly free to make whatever ruling enhances your game, we have to acknowledge the rules before we can change them.

ETA:

The arcane ward ability states that 'Whenever you take damage, the ward takes it instead.'

Damage Resistance and Vulnerability states 'Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage...

The 25 damage is first reduced by 5 and then halved, so the creature takes 10 damage.'

Note that last line. The damage is reduced then halved, so it takes 10 damage. You do not take damage until after resistance is applied. The Ward triggers when you take damage.

Again...

Damage is reduced by half. You take damage. When you take damage, the ward takes it instead.

Except the ward is a distinct entity, with its own HP, unlike something that grants temp HP. Therefore your resistance doesn't apply, and wouldn't until that damage got to you.

Also, there's nothing about that line that doesn't suggest resistance/reduction/damage don't occur simultaneously. Sure, there's an order, but that's for ease of math.

[MadBear]

In short, your interpretation is not good for the game. Rather than try to think of ways to limit player power just because you can, perhaps you should consider what effect such limitations have on the quality of the game. In other words, don't be an evil God, or your players will get up and find a better reality to play in.

I'm sorry but this kind of response is just silly. You don't get to dictate the motives of other players on a forum. Maybe others are doing this to limit players, maybe not. Either way don't attribute negative attributes to their perspective because you disagree with it.

And to be honest I also figured it's be to absorb damage first, then reduce the rest by half, since a similar situation is used as an example and that's what they did.

[Easy_Lee]

From a gamist perspective, the mechanics are weaker if they don't interact. There's no reason for a class to have a mechanic that doesn't interact with its other mechanics.

Resistance happens before damage is taken. The ward has its own HP but is part of the player, else it would have its own AC.

AC is a product of armor and evasiveness. A fighter/wizard can have heavy armor master and arcane ward at once. Heavy armor master grants mundane resistance as a condition of wearing heavy armor. This resistance is tied to the armor, but applies to the player. Striking the armor does less damage to the player in it because the player is good at wearing that armor.

It's clear that Arcane ward is not on top of the armor because it does not have its own AC. Furthermore, it's clear it is not on top of mage armor either since it does not take hits that would have been deflected by mage armor. Nor is it on top of innate armor bonus, such as a sorcerer's scales.

From all of these points, it's clear that the arcane ward is either just below the skin or is a magical condition applied to the player that takes some of the damage instead. Many sources of resistance, including heavy armor master, would be encountered before this ward. Therefore, the arcane ward applies after resistance.

[edge2054]

Except the ward is a distinct entity, with its own HP, unlike something that grants temp HP. Therefore your resistance doesn't apply, and wouldn't until that damage got to you.

I can see the distinct entity argument.


Also, there's nothing about that line that doesn't suggest resistance/reduction/damage don't occur simultaneously. Sure, there's an order, but that's for ease of math.

Okay, but even if they occur simultaneously it doesn't support the argument that resistance doesn't apply. Yes, it kicks the legs out from underneath my argument but that's two different things.



And to be honest I also figured it's be to absorb damage first, then reduce the rest by half, since a similar situation is used as an example and that's what they did.

This situation refers to reduction though and a direct modifier to the damage. Arcane Ward may be similar from a mechanics perspective but it's also similar to temporary hit points which I think we can all agree resistance clearly applies too.

The distinct entity argument is the only thing I see that really detracts from the idea that resistance does not apply.

Personally I wouldn't run it that way as Abjurers have a number of means of gaining resistance. Not having it stack doesn't sound fun.

[Z3ro]

From all of these points, it's clear that the arcane ward is either just below the skin or is a magical condition applied to the player that takes some of the damage instead. Many sources of resistance, including heavy armor master, would be encountered before this ward. Therefore, the arcane ward applies after resistance.

From a pure simulation standpoint, I don't see how the ward doesn't take the damage first, then apply any left over to you for resistance to apply. I picture the ward more as a floating shield-type thing, but even in your example it makes no sense to apply resistance first. Given that the ward has a seperate pool of HP, I can't see a good argument that it gets your resistances itsefl.

Essentially, you'd have to calculate damage that didn't hit you as if it did. This makes no sense to me.

[edge2054]

One could argue that resistance itself, especially in the form of spells, is also a distinct layer.

You could picture it like a field...

Incoming Damage ---> (-- Resistance ( -- Arcane Ward (player)

Point being there's more than one way to look at it.

[Easy_Lee]

From a pure simulation standpoint, I don't see how the ward doesn't take the damage first, then apply any left over to you for resistance to apply. I picture the ward more as a floating shield-type thing, but even in your example it makes no sense to apply resistance first. Given that the ward has a seperate pool of HP, I can't see a good argument that it gets your resistances itsefl.

Essentially, you'd have to calculate damage that didn't hit you as if it did. This makes no sense to me.

If it's a seperate, floating shield, then kindly explain how in the nine hells it doesn't take damage that plate armor deflects.

[Z3ro]

If it's a seperate, floating shield, then kindly explain how in the nine hells it doesn't take damage that plate armor deflects.

Magic. Sorry I couldn't resist

[Easy_Lee]

Magic. Sorry I couldn't resist

If it's magic, then it applies whenever the the wizard decides it does.

[Z3ro]

If it's magic, then it applies whenever the the wizard decides it does.

It was just a joke.

But to address your response seriously, magic, while versatile, does not do whatever "the wizard decides it does." Magic in all editions of D&D has had strict rules about what it does or does not do.

[edge2054]

Sent a tweet. Jeremy Crawford says resistance applies after the Ward takes damage.

Bummer too, I was looking forward to playing an abjurer at some point. Guess my first Wizard this edition will be a diviner instead.

[Easy_Lee]

Sent a tweet. Jeremy Crawford says resistance applies after the Ward takes damage.

Bummer too, I was looking forward to playing an abjurer at some point. Guess my first Wizard this edition will be a diviner instead.

...that's just plain silly. How does the ward apply after saves, after armor, but before you resist the damage? Nonsense.

[edge2054]

Well I can see the logic in it but I probably wouldn't run it that way. I like classes whose abilities work together and the fact that a warlock gets more out of resistance than an abjurer is disheartening.

Unfortunately I'm only doing organized play for the time being. So I'm kinda stuck with RAW.

[pwykersotz]

Sent a tweet. Jeremy Crawford says resistance applies after the Ward takes damage.

Bummer too, I was looking forward to playing an abjurer at some point. Guess my first Wizard this edition will be a diviner instead.

I'd just like to point out that the situation is still extremely favorable to have both, and unless you have resistance to everything, the stacking is pretty unlikely to apply. Are you sure that your fun as an abjurer hinges on the one niche element of that one ability?

Fireball, deals 50 damage. You're level 12 with max int, so the ward takes 29 damage, 21 gets through. Cut in half, you take 10 fire damage.

vs

Resistance applies, ward is barely intact with 4hp.

Either way, abjurer has saved your bacon.

[Morukai]

Sent a tweet. Jeremy Crawford says resistance applies after the Ward takes damage.

Bummer too, I was looking forward to playing an abjurer at some point. Guess my first Wizard this edition will be a diviner instead.

Well, that's disappointing. Especially for the capstone Abjurer ability- half damage from spells (but only after they wipe out your ward, apparently).

Good arguments from both sides, by the way!

[edge2054]

I'd just like to point out that the situation is still extremely favorable to have both, and unless you have resistance to everything, the stacking is pretty unlikely to apply. Are you sure that your fun as an abjurer hinges on the one niche element of that one ability?


Yeah, I was just disappointed by the ruling.

Honestly the spells that grant resistance, aside from blade ward, I would probably cast on someone else anyway.

[Grey Watcher]

Sent a tweet. Jeremy Crawford says resistance applies after the Ward takes damage.

Bummer too, I was looking forward to playing an abjurer at some point. Guess my first Wizard this edition will be a diviner instead.

Did he reply publicly or as a private message? If it was public, I'd love to have the link for reference. (Even if I'm of the opinion that it's much simpler and makes more sense to just treat the Ward as temporary HP and be done with it. :mumble grumble:)

[Shining Wrath]

To me it seems clear that the ward is applied after the resistance.

Suppose you have managed to gain immunity to poison and resistance to cold. If someone hits you with Poison Splash for 8 points, you don't knock your ward down by 8 points. You simply ignore the attack; you're immune.

If someone hits you with an Ice Storm for 20 points, you apply the resistance first, dropping it to 10, and then apply the ward.

[edge2054]

Did he reply publicly or as a private message? If it was public, I'd love to have the link for reference. (Even if I'm of the opinion that it's much simpler and makes more sense to just treat the Ward as temporary HP and be done with it. :mumble grumble:)

It's public.

I'd link it but I'm a twitter noob and can't figure out how to embed tweets on this site. But here's the quote...


If an abjurer has resistance, it is applied after the ward takes any damage.

[Z3ro]

you don't knock your ward down by 8 points. You simply ignore the attack; you're immune.


Sure you're immune, but the ward has its own HP (which are explicitly not temporary HP). There's nothing in the ability to suggest this distint pool of HP has the same protections (or vulnerabilities) that you do, hence it seems it would take damage from something you're immune to.

[Easy_Lee]

Sure you're immune, but the ward has its own HP (which are explicitly not temporary HP). There's nothing in the ability to suggest this distint pool of HP has the same protections (or vulnerabilities) that you do, hence it seems it would take damage from something you're immune to.

It's more of a logic thing. If the ward is outside your armor, scales, plate or otherwise, then It should take damage before your AC comes into play. That's not the case, leading to the conclusion that it's under your skin or something. And we know at least one source of resistance based on armor (heavy armor master). Similarly, draconic scales would apply before anything touches your skin, as would a magical blade ward.

From a gamist perspective, it's a question of mechanics working together. Class mechanics should build off of each other, not stand alone.

Those are my opinions. I strongly believe ward should come after resistance, not before, and that the devs didn't think this one through.

[Grey Watcher]

It's public.

I'd link it but I'm a twitter noob and can't figure out how to embed tweets on this site. But here's the quote...

Here we go: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/525030313571790848

[Z3ro]

It's more of a logic thing. If the ward is outside your armor, scales, plate or otherwise, then It should take damage before your AC comes into play. That's not the case, leading to the conclusion that it's under your skin or something. And we know at least one source of resistance based on armor (heavy armor master). Similarly, draconic scales would apply before anything touches your skin, as would a magical blade ward.

From a gamist perspective, it's a question of mechanics working together. Class mechanics should build off of each other, not stand alone.

Those are my opinions. I strongly believe ward should come after resistance, not before, and that the devs didn't think this one through.

I don't know where the idea that the ward is under your skin is coming from. The description says "you can weave magic around yourself for protection" and "create a magical ward on yourself". Nothing in there suggests under the skin and, depending on how you interprut "on yourself", would even be layer over your armor (hence my view as some sort of floating shield).

And I'm not arguing if they should or shouldn't work together (ideally they would), I'm arguing if they do. The 3.5 monk had tons of mechanics that didn't work together; doesn't mean they weren't RAW.

[Easy_Lee]

I don't know where the idea that the ward is under your skin is coming from. The description says "you can weave magic around yourself for protection" and "create a magical ward on yourself". Nothing in there suggests under the skin and, depending on how you interprut "on yourself", would even be layer over your armor (hence my view as some sort of floating shield).

And I'm not arguing if they should or shouldn't work together (ideally they would), I'm arguing if they do. The 3.5 monk had tons of mechanics that didn't work together; doesn't mean they weren't RAW.

I'm not as concerned with RAW as having a functional game. And the idea comes from the fact that the ward is encountered after AC, as I've said.

Consider a fire dragon sorcerer / abjurer wizard. The ward does not take damage for blows deflected by the scales. However, it does take damage for fire resisted by the scales, before the scales are hit with fire. So it is both above the scales and below them, and doesn't choose a state until damage is rolled. This is Schrodinger's ward.

How do you resolve that? Where is the ward, exactly? Does it magically know when the caster will take damage, and interpose itself only then? That's the only explanation I can think of.

[Z3ro]

How do you resolve that? Where is the ward, exactly? Does it magically know when the caster will take damage, and interpose itself only then? That's the only explanation I can think of.

Pretty much; like I said, I picture it kind of like a floating shield that moves around as needed, only intercepting damage that would end up getting taken. This is one of those areas that are, unfortunately, complicated by the reliance of a single number for AC, without seperate distinctions into what makes things "hit" or "miss".

[Easy_Lee]

Pretty much; like I said, I picture it kind of like a floating shield that moves around as needed, only intercepting damage that would end up getting taken. This is one of those areas that are, unfortunately, complicated by the reliance of a single number for AC, without seperate distinctions into what makes things "hit" or "miss".

So you picture the ward as non-touch AC of some kind? That just makes it more complicated. It's much simpler, I think, to just treat the ward as an alternate form of false life.

[Chen]

I'd actually consider the ward's HP just another abstraction of how it defends you. Similar to the way HP is abstracted away in terms of it not only being physical resilience but also experiance, stamina etc that increase as you increase in level. AC itself is also somewhat of an abstraction. There are things that would almost certainly penetrate armor that can still be "deflected" by it. A suit of leather armor should probably do jack all against a dragon (always remember that Council of Wyrms boxed set with the poster comparing a Great Wyrm silver to a human), but yet it's AC is still counted.

[Rezby]

Why not just pretend the ward is Temp HP with a different name? You're still taking damage, so resistance is applied, then it gets subtracted from your "temp HP".

Saying otherwise just seems really contradictory to, ya know, the whole idea and concept behind an abjurer. The folks who invest all their energy and spell casting and thoughts towards preventing damage. As someone who specializes in abjuring, I'm going to damn well want to abjure!

[Grey Watcher]

Why not just pretend the ward is Temp HP with a different name? You're still taking damage, so resistance is applied, then it gets subtracted from your "temp HP".

Saying otherwise just seems really contradictory to, ya know, the whole idea and concept behind an abjurer. The folks who invest all their energy and spell casting and thoughts towards preventing damage. As someone who specializes in abjuring, I'm going to damn well want to abjure!

Well, technically, there's nothing in the text on temporary HP that says it gets subtracted after resistance and such.... :smalltongue:

But seriously, I think we can all agree that, for private play, it's a very simple houserule, but it does still kinda suck for people who are playing in officially sanctioned games to have the Abjuration school nerfed where it didn't need it. The ruling from Mr. Crawford makes it stupidly easy to whittle away the Arcane Ward with attacks that would otherwise be completely ineffective. (As was pointed out upstream, you could, in theory, obliterate someone's Arcane Ward by spamming him with stuff he is otherwise immune to, which is silly for a character who's supposed to be a master of magical defense.)

[Easy_Lee]

This reminds me of a scene in one of Salvatore's books where Artemis tries pelting a mage with ineffectual thrown items to try and whittle away the mage's stoneskin.

[edge2054]

This reminds me of a scene in one of Salvatore's books where Artemis tries pelting a mage with ineffectual thrown items to try and whittle away the mage's stoneskin.

Wasn't stoneskin in second edition a flat blocks X attacks?

I seem to recall a player suggesting that we dump a bag of rocks on stone skin mages. (IIRC it was actually a joke he was making because I was playing a mage that used stoneskin just about every fight).

[charcoalninja]

Wasn't stoneskin in second edition a flat blocks X attacks?

I seem to recall a player suggesting that we dump a bag of rocks on stone skin mages. (IIRC it was actually a joke he was making because I was playing a mage that used stoneskin just about every fight).

Yeah 2e stoneskin was so obnoxiously broken that players and DMs tended to ignore the rules on how attacks worked in coming up with silly "I throw a bag of coins at the guy and each coin counts as an attack" ways of getting around the spell.

This ward example is exactly why clarification from the Devs is almost universally a bad idea, as more often than not, it turns out what the devs wanted to say isn't remotely like how they actually wrote it and is mostly disappointing. PF was terrible for this to the point where their organized play options banned their own classes (hi summoner)

[edge2054]

Yeah 2e stoneskin was so obnoxiously broken that players and DMs tended to ignore the rules on how attacks worked in coming up with silly "I throw a bag of coins at the guy and each coin counts as an attack" ways of getting around the spell.

This ward example is exactly why clarification from the Devs is almost universally a bad idea, as more often than not, it turns out what the devs wanted to say isn't remotely like how they actually wrote it and is mostly disappointing. PF was terrible for this to the point where their organized play options banned their own classes (hi summoner)

Haha.. now that I think about it, it was probably coins in fact.

I think Mike is pretty good about leaving things up to the DM. He also tends to suggest how he would rule it and it tends to be in favor of the player unless it's something obnoxiously broken (hello contagion).

Jeremy tends to give more official rulings and two days in a row I've tweeted them both and he's given a response. Two days in a row I've regretted doing so.