How does Musical Instrument proficiency work?

[odigity]

So you get a proficiency from your class or background in a musical instrument -- say, flute.

Next, you also choose to be proficient in Cha (perform).

Now, you give a performance using the flute. What kind of roll are you making, and what are the bonuses?

Bonus question: Can you choose "voice" as the musical instrument to be proficient in? If so, can you apply that to non-entertainment purposes, like impersonating someone to sneak past a guard or creating a false identity or throwing your voice to distract someone?

[Ralanr]

"I play the flute to charm the king and queen"

"Roll performance"

"4"

"Add your proficiency bonus"

"I did. I got four."

"You've deafened the entire room with your horribly flute playing"

Something like that I'd imagine. Or I may have misinterpreted what you meant.

[Beleriphon]

So you get a proficiency from your class or background in a musical instrument -- say, flute.

Next, you also choose to be proficient in Cha (perform).

Now, you give a performance using the flute. What kind of roll are you making, and what are the bonuses?

Bonus question: Can you choose "voice" as the musical instrument to be proficient in? If so, can you apply that to non-entertainment purposes, like impersonating someone to sneak past a guard or creating a false identity or throwing your voice to distract someone?

Tool poficiency is the technical aspect of using an instrument correctly, while performance is knowing how to effectively put on a show beyond technical correctness of playing an instrument. If you plan on putting on a bit of a show, primarily using a flute, but with bits of humour and an appropriate musical piece for your audience then is a performance roll.

[Yagyujubei]

yeah judging by how other tool proficiencies work (i think) I would grant advantage on checks using the instrument you're proficient in. if you're proficient in performance you just add your bonus to the check.

in that regard I would rule out voice as an instrument, or at least rule that the advantage would only apply when making a performance check (and not any diplomatic check "but im using my voice!"). I would allow a player with this to use performance instead of deception for imitating someones voice or sounds like you mentioned though.

[Yuki Akuma]

yeah judging by how other tool proficiencies work (i think) I would grant advantage on checks using the instrument you're proficient in. if you're proficient in performance you just add your bonus to the check.

That's not how tools work at all. Tools work just like skills - you add your proficiency bonus to checks made with them.

[Yagyujubei]

That's not how tools work at all. Tools work just like skills - you add your proficiency bonus to checks made with them.

ah, must be one of the homebrew rules in my current campaign...it's hard to keep track which is which without my book in front of me.

if that's the case though, then having instrument proficiency is 100% useless unless you just double your proficiency bonus for a performance check using a tool you're proficient in....I guess that's how it would work out though so it's not bad. Kinda like having mastery through two proficiencies then

[Yuki Akuma]

ah, must be one of the homebrew rules in my current campaign...it's hard to keep track which is which without my book in front of me.

if that's the case though, then having instrument proficiency is 100% useless unless you just double your proficiency bonus for a performance check using a tool you're proficient in....I guess that's how it would work out though so it's not bad. Kinda like having mastery through two proficiencies then

You only ever apply your proficiency bonus once to any single check.

[Yagyujubei]

well if that's the case instrument proficiency has absolutely no purpose in the game, so I would rule otherwise personally

[Cybren]

well if that's the case instrument proficiency has absolutely no purpose in the game, so I would rule otherwise personally

they're for flavor reasons. a lot of backgrounds have them. How "useful" is dragonchess proficiency? Probably not as much as Perception, Athletics, or even Religion. But it's a cool thing to say your character can do, and it occasionally comes up in social situations.

[Slipperychicken]

As an instrumentalist myself, I would say that tool proficiency with an instrument represents training with that instrument. That lets you add your proficiency bonus to perform checks made with that instrument and very similar ones (violin proficiency, for example, would apply to violas too. Wind players can often play multiple wind instruments).

Having sunk an one of your few proficiencies into charisma(Perform) means you've trained in all kinds of performance and can apply your proficiency bonus to all perform checks, within reason.

I would say that having both charisma(perform) and tool(voice) means you use the higher of the two.

No, tool(voice) should not let you add proficiency to deception checks unless your campaign happens to be a musical. Being a singer does not necessarily make you a better liar.

[Yagyujubei]

they're for flavor reasons. a lot of backgrounds have them. How "useful" is dragonchess proficiency? Probably not as much as Perception, Athletics, or even Religion. But it's a cool thing to say your character can do, and it occasionally comes up in social situations.

well the thing is, dragonchess proficiency is at least SOMEWHAT useful in that if you were; say, betting money on a game of it, you would get proficiency to your roll.

instrument proficiency has no use because I cant think of a single situation where you would use an instrument without it counting as a performance check. maybe if you want to back someone over the head with your instrument it would come into play...but otherwise it automatically gets cancelled out by performance proficiency.

I guess the case could be made that if you're proficient in an instrument then you would be able to perform without it even without performance proficiency while still getting your bonus....thats the only use I can think of for it though.

[Naanomi]

In the Goonies, there was a puzzle with an organ and playing the right note. Performance wouldn't help that check at all, but Instrument Tool probably would have

[Townopolis]

I guess the case could be made that if you're proficient in an instrument then you would be able to perform with it even without performance proficiency while still getting your bonus....thats the only use I can think of for it though.
This is RAW.

[Slipperychicken]

instrument proficiency has no use because I cant think of a single situation where you would use an instrument without it counting as a performance check. maybe if you want to back someone over the head with your instrument it would come into play...but otherwise it automatically gets cancelled out by performance proficiency.

It's useful if you have a tool proficiency to spare, but don't want to blow a whole skill proficiency on performance. Like if your character is a violinist, but not a singer or an actor.

[Cybren]

It's useful if you have a tool proficiency to spare, but don't want to blow a whole skill proficiency on performance. Like if your character is a violinist, but not a singer or an actor.

Yeah, if you're a member of a large band or orchestra, you're probably using tool prof and not Charisma (Perform). I'd also let people with tool proficiency give you advantage as a helping skill on a Charsima (Perform) check, or even use the tool proficiency to give yourself advantage later for preparation or rehearsing or what have you

[rollingForInit]

I would say that Performance is more niched. If you've Performance, you use the instrument to perform. You may or may not be extremely good at playing it, but either way, you can pull of a very nice performance. If you've got proficiency in the instrument, you are an expert at the instrument, and it's more your skill with it than anything else that impresses the audience. Fluff, sure. Still a difference. As a DM, I might set different DC's for Performance and Instrument. A person who wants a show might be more impressed by the former, whereas someone interested in the technical aspects would be more impressed with the latter. So if there's a skill challenge involving a performance, I could call for both a Performance roll and an Instrument roll. If both are good, the performance is splendid, whereas if one of them is bad some people might be impressed and others not.

I would also say that if you've got the tool proficiency, you know how to properly care for the instrument, you can assess the quality and value of a given instrument of the sort, you might be very good at realising exactly how talented another person is with it. I might also call for an Intelligence (Flute) roll as a knowledge check about the instrument, its history, notable players, etc. If you hear music somewhere, I might also allow someone with proficiency in the instrument being played automatically identify the type of instrument (e.g. is it a flute or a pan flute, etc) by hearing alone.

None of that is RAW of course, but that's what I'd do to set the tool proficiency apart from the Performance skill.

[Sartharina]

I'd say Performance proficiency doesn't apply to instrumental proficiencies. You can sing, dance, and act, but not play the flute.

[TheOOB]

I'd say Performance proficiency doesn't apply to instrumental proficiencies. You can sing, dance, and act, but not play the flute.

I would agree with this.

[MadGrady]

I would agree with this.

Agree as well.

Tool proficiencies allow you to add prof bonus to certain situations. Best example I know of is theives' tool proficiency. Disarming a trap is just a straight up dex check. If you are proficient with thieves tools and have the tools at hand, you get to add your bonus to that check.

So if you are not proficient in perform, but you have an instrument proficiency, then when you play that instrument, you make a charisma check + prof bonus. Otherwise, its just a charisma check.

[Sartharina]

Agree as well.

Tool proficiencies allow you to add prof bonus to certain situations. Best example I know of is theives' tool proficiency. Disarming a trap is just a straight up dex check. If you are proficient with thieves tools and have the tools at hand, you get to add your bonus to that check.

So if you are not proficient in perform, but you have an instrument proficiency, then when you play that instrument, you make a charisma check + prof bonus. Otherwise, its just a charisma check.Even if you are proficient in Perform, trying to use an instrument is just a CHA check if you're not proficient with the instrument. Unless, of course, the performance is Comedy.