PF Claw and Bite Barbarian

[Cranthis]

I need help with a Pathfinder claw and bite barbarian. This build would be starting at level 1, and going until about 15. 20 point buy, Common races, and featured races from the Advanced Race Guide allowed.

I'm thinking Human Barbarian,
Stats: 18, 14, 14, 11, 7, 7.
Feats and Rage powers (RP):
1: Power Attack
Human: Cleave
2: Animal Fury
3: Extra Rage power: Beast Totem Lesser
4rp: Greater Animal Fury
5: Multiattack
6rp: Beast Totem
7: Step up
8rp: Superstition
9: Raging Vitality
10rp: Beast Totem Greater

What could I do to better this build?

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm. If you're open to Bloodrager, the Draconic bloodline gets you always-on claws, meaning you can take Improved Natural Attack with them. Rageshaper boosts the damage of bloodline-granted natural weapons, bringing the total damage up to 3d6 damage by level 7, plus 1d6 energy damage after level 12.

If your DM lets Dragon Disciple advance the Bloodrager's Draconic bloodline rather than the Sorcerer's, then that PrC is a viable choice. It gives you, among other things, +4 to Strength (and +2 Con), a bite attack, and blindsense. If you're willing to give up (via Primalist) either the wings or the breath weapon (I recommend the latter if either, since it's only 3/day anyways) along with Dragon Form (which you get a version of from Dragon Disciple, so it's worth trading off), you can get four rage powers, enough for the full Beast Totem chain plus maybe Reckless Abandon or something. You'll have to take Extra Rage a few times, but it might be worth looking into.

[Red Fel]

Alternatively, Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) (Draconic) grants you the claws. As an aside, they're not always-on; you can activate them as a free action, and they last for 3+Cha rounds per day, split up as you like.

Now, Catfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk) may be your option, here. (You said Featured races, right?) Swap out Natural Hunter for Cat's Claws - bam, you've got a claw attack. Take the Nimble Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/nimble-striker-combat-catfolk) feat, you can Cleave/Lunge/charge without an AC penalty. Take the Claw Pounce (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/claw-pounce-combat-catfolk) feat, you gain a full attack (with claws) on a charge. You can also take Catfolk Exemplar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/catfolk-exemplar-catfolk), which makes this even more awesome. (As an aside, swap Low-light vision for Scent. There's just no reason not to.)

[Cranthis]

Hm. If you're open to Bloodrager, the Draconic bloodline gets you always-on claws, meaning you can take Improved Natural Attack with them. Rageshaper boosts the damage of bloodline-granted natural weapons, bringing the total damage up to 3d6 damage by level 7, plus 1d6 energy damage after level 12.

If your DM lets Dragon Disciple advance the Bloodrager's Draconic bloodline rather than the Sorcerer's, then that PrC is a viable choice. It gives you, among other things, +4 to Strength (and +2 Con), a bite attack, and blindsense. If you're willing to give up (via Primalist) either the wings or the breath weapon (I recommend the latter if either, since it's only 3/day anyways) along with Dragon Form (which you get a version of from Dragon Disciple, so it's worth trading off), you can get four rage powers, enough for the full Beast Totem chain plus maybe Reckless Abandon or something. You'll have to take Extra Rage a few times, but it might be worth looking into.
The only problem with Blood rager is I won't get as many natural attacks as I would with Barbarian. My friend actually reccomended Bloodrager/ Dragon Discopants as well, but I'm saving that build for another time.


Alternatively, Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) (Draconic) grants you the claws. As an aside, they're not always-on; you can activate them as a free action, and they last for 3+Cha rounds per day, split up as you like.

Now, Catfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk) may be your option, here. (You said Featured races, right?) Swap out Natural Hunter for Cat's Claws - bam, you've got a claw attack. Take the Nimble Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/nimble-striker-combat-catfolk) feat, you can Cleave/Lunge/charge without an AC penalty. Take the Claw Pounce (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/claw-pounce-combat-catfolk) feat, you gain a full attack (with claws) on a charge. You can also take Catfolk Exemplar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/catfolk-exemplar-catfolk), which makes this even more awesome. (As an aside, swap Low-light vision for Scent. There's just no reason not to.)

The only problem with that, is as above. Instead of getting 3 attacks, I'd only be getting 2. Although, I do have to admit, the catfolk stuff is pretty cool.

[Extra Anchovies]

The only problem with Blood rager is I won't get as many natural attacks as I would with Barbarian. My friend actually reccomended Bloodrager/ Dragon Discopants as well, but I'm saving that build for another time.

Play a race with a natural bite attack? Tieflings can get one via the Maw or Claw alternate racial trait, and there's almost certainly at least one or two other ways to get racial bite attacks. Then you can use it even when not raging, which is nice.

Or play a Bloodrager and switch out a bloodline power for two rage powers via Primalist, which I suggested doing in my previous post. That could get you Animal Fury and Greater Animal Fury.

[grarrrg]

5: Multiattack

Multiattack does absolutely nothing for you here, unless you plan on using a Manufactured Weapon of some type.
The Claws are already Primary, and despite _looking_ like a Secondary attack, the Bite is NOT a Secondary attack.

I also wouldn't bother with Greater Animal Fury, bumping a 1d4 up to a 1d6 is not worth a Power/Feat (and even using/getting Enlarge Person for another size increase won't help much, as it just pushes a 1d6 to a 1d8).

Finally, I probably wouldn't bother with Cleave, but unlike the two feats I mentioned about, Cleave 'might' actually be useful.


Hm. If you're open to Bloodrager, the Draconic bloodline gets you always-on claws

Nope:
"Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage"


The only problem with Blood rager is I won't get as many natural attacks as I would with Barbarian.
Hows that?
Bloodrager can always take the Primalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/primalist) Archetype and trade away either your Resists or your Breath weapon and nab whatever 2 Rage Powers you want, so you can get Animal Fury back if you need to.

You can also choose a race other than Human that already has a Bite attack. Half-Orcs have an Alt-Race Trait and/or a Feat to grant them a Bite attack.
Tieflings can get a Bite, Tengu can get a Bite, etc...


The only problem with that, is as above. Instead of getting 3 attacks, I'd only be getting 2. Although, I do have to admit, the catfolk stuff is pretty cool.

If you're a Catfolk Barbarian you can still take the Animal Fury Rage Power.
If you're a Catfolk Bloodrager, you can still take Primalist and grab whatever Rage Power you want.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nope:
"Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage"

Thanks for pointing that out. The Abyssal bloodline explicitly states that its claws only appear during a bloodrage, but the Draconic bloodline's description has no such clause (no pun intended). Tricky, tricky, poorly-edited ACG...

[grarrrg]

no such clause (no pun intended)

LIES!
Puns are always intended!

[Abd al-Azrad]

I recently sent a level 10 lizardfolk barbarian at one of my players. It wasn't exactly an optimal build, but I picked the Lesser Fiend totem for a Gore attack, as well as Witch Hunter, Reckless Abandon, and a few other damage boosters.

The final build had four natural attacks, all at the highest attack bonus he could manage. Yes, his lizard claws and bite dealt pretty poor base damage, but he was adding close to +30 damage to each of the four (or five, hasted) attacks.

As far as further progression goes, you won't get Pounce through your Barbarian levels, so you'll have to find another source. Alternately, if you can pick up Boar's Charge, Disemboweling Tusks, and perhaps Mighty Swing (I consider that overkill since you're likely going to confirm any critical threat anyway) your charge attacks pretty much auto-crit for extra Con damage.

[The Glyphstone]

A Half-Orc with the Toothy alternate racial trait gains a bite attack that's 'always on', even when not raging, and is a Primary attack instead of Animal Fury's secondary attack. Taking Beast Totem gets you the claw attacks while raging, and eventually gives you Pounce as well.

[VexingFool]

Here’s a build I was thinking of. It gets 3 attacks at level-1 and 4 attacks at Level-4. It does miss out on pounce, but since pounce does not come online until level-10 I think it’s worth it. Can pick up a couple of quick runner’s shirts for a once per combat move+full attack.

At 10th level arcane strike will give +3 dmg to each attack without spending a swift action. Also will have the ability to enlarge itself when raging.

Race: Tiefling (Pitborn) – Alternate Racial Traits (Fiendish Sprinter, Maw, Prehensile Tail)
Class: Bloodrager (Primalist)

STR: 16(18)
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 12(10)
WIS: 7
CHA: 10(12)

Feats and powers:
1: Power Attack
3: Raging Vitality
4: Rage powers (Lesser Fiend Totem, No Escape)
5: Arcane Strike
6b: Intimidating Prowess
7: Cornugon Smash
8: Bloodline Power: Demonic Bulk
9: Blooded Arcane Strike
9b: Improved Bull Rush

[Psyren]

The only problem with that, is as above. Instead of getting 3 attacks, I'd only be getting 2. Although, I do have to admit, the catfolk stuff is pretty cool.

Easy solution there - Claw Blades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/claw-blades). Get a pair and now your claws count as manufactured weapons - meaning you get iteratives and can even TWF with them. Best part, you still have pounce - just with a ton more attacks.

I would take that one Barbarian that boosts Dex for this, make the claw blades Agile, and go for Piranha Strike as well. Alternatively, go with Ninja + Scout.

[NightbringerGGZ]

If you're looking for a Claw - Claw - Bite combo, you can gain a Bite attack via a trait. Pick up the Adopted (Social) Trait and use it to grab the Tusked (Racial) Trait. It's slightly cheesy but if you're playing as a Catfolk it could easily be fluffed in (Sabertooth). That nets you 3 Primary attacks during the early levels of the game, letting you delay the transition to using Claw Blades and iterative attacks until you have the feats to make it worthwhile.

[Cranthis]

Edit: Removed for being dumb.

[Cranthis]

Ok, so it looks like my best options are Catfolk with claws, adopted for the bite, clawblades and two weapon fighting, so as to get both claws and the bite. I think I just wasn't getting what was being said, but I understand now. I'll have to shift my point buy around, but that isn't a big deal, and I'll have to restructure the entire build. But hey, improvements are improvements. I have no idea what to do with rage powers now, but for feats, how about:

1: Two Weapon fighting
3: Catfolk Exemplar (Sharp Claws)
5: Nimble Striker
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: Combat Reflexes
11: Claw Pounce
13: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15: Eldritch Claws
I'm still conflicting with myself about whether to go Barbie or Bloodrager.

[grarrrg]

Ok, so it looks like my best options are Catfolk with claws, adopted for the bite, clawblades and two weapon fighting, so as to get both claws and the bite. I think I just wasn't getting what was being said, but I understand now. I'll have to shift my point buy around, but that isn't a big deal, and I'll have to restructure the entire build. But hey, improvements are improvements. I have no idea what to do with rage powers now, but for feats, how about:

Well, now we're getting back into a weird area.

If you have all Natural attacks, then they are Primary/Secondary as listed.
If you combine a Manufactured Weapon with Naturals, then ALL Naturals become Secondary.

Putting Claw Blades on means you have a Manufactured weapon, and your Bite now takes a To-Hit Penalty, and only gets 1/2 STR to damage.
So the Bite is kinda cruddy. Yeah, you qualify for the Multiattack feat, but all that does is reduce the To-Hit penalty on your worst attack.

But if you go all Naturals, then you lose out on Iteratives attacks.

My suggestion?
1 Claw Blade, 1 Claw au naturel, keep the Bite, take Multiattack.
Your Claw Blade will still get all Iterative attacks, based on your FULL Bab (as opposed to TWF, which imposes a -2).
Your norm-Claw and Bite will only take a -2 to-hit.
You save a bunch of feats by NOT needing TWF/Weapon Finesse, and you can focus more on STR.
You'll want an Amulet of Mighty Fists, but since it benefits 2 of your attacks, you won't feel as cheated than if it only applied to the Bite.

[Extra Anchovies]

Your Claw Blade will still get all Iterative attacks, based on your FULL Bab (TWF imposes a -2).

How can you TWF while wielding only one weapon?

[grarrrg]

How can you TWF while wielding only one weapon?

Edited.
"as opposed to TWF..."

[Sartharina]

Who needs iteratives when you have 3 high-power natural weapons (That scale REALLY well with Power Attack)? Especially if they're all considered primary (x3 STR per attack! And +2 per Power Attack level! No penalties to hit)

[Extra Anchovies]

Who needs iteratives when you have 3 high-power natural weapons (That scale REALLY well with Power Attack)? Especially if they're all considered primary (x3 STR per attack! And +2 per Power Attack level! No penalties to hit)

Please explain how you get triple your strength modifier on each attack, especially in light of the recent FAQ ruling that you (usually) can't get X to Y twice.

ETA: To address your question, natural attacks are good, but natural attacks and iteratives are even better.

[Cranthis]

All good advice. I too would like to know how you are getting x3 strength on naturals.

[Sartharina]

Please explain how you get triple your strength modifier on each attack, especially in light of the recent FAQ ruling that you (usually) can't get X to Y twice.

ETA: To address your question, natural attacks are good, but natural attacks and iteratives are even better.

Sorry - triple strength per attack cycle, not per attack. The same as two strikes with a heavy weapon... except without a -5 on the second attack.

[Psyren]

Sartharina is right - if you're going barbarian, don't bother with the claw blades, instead stick with the natural attacks and pump Str. More attacks rely on a bonus damage mechanic like sneak attack.

[Cranthis]

If I don't use the claw blades, then I would only be getting half-strength to my attacks anyways.

[Psyren]

If I don't use the claw blades, then I would only be getting half-strength to my attacks anyways.

How do you figure? Claws and Bites are both primary.

[Extra Anchovies]

How do you figure? Claws and Bites are both primary.

With a manufactured weapon, they become secondary. Multiattack mostly offsets the penalty to-hit, but not the reduced damage.

[Sartharina]

With a manufactured weapon, they become secondary. Multiattack mostly offsets the penalty to-hit, but not the reduced damage.The point is to not use manufactured weapons. Claw blades make them manufactured weapons, meaning that if you use 1, you're getting one full strength attack and two half-strength attacks at -2, and another few full strength attacks at -5 and -10 (BAD DEAL).

If you don't use Claw blades, you get three Full Strength attacks without penalty.

[Cranthis]

How do you figure? Claws and Bites are both primary.

I mis-read the natural weapon rules. I feel like I will still get more attacks this way. I might have 2 points less strength than I want, but thats not too bad, and the dexterity doesn't exactly hurt.

[Sartharina]

I mis-read the natural weapon rules. I feel like I will still get more attacks this way. I might have 2 points less strength than I want, but thats not too bad, and the dexterity doesn't exactly hurt.You'll get more attacks, yes... but they'll be weak, and stupidly likely to whiff. You're trying to Monkify the Barbarian.

[Cranthis]

You'll get more attacks, yes... but they'll be weak, and stupidly likely to whiff. You're trying to Monkify the Barbarian.

I'll only be taking a -2 to hit, I shouldn't be whiffing.

[Psyren]

With a manufactured weapon, they become secondary. Multiattack mostly offsets the penalty to-hit, but not the reduced damage.

If you're using claw blades, you won't have any claws, that's the point. Your bite will be secondary, but you can either live with that or pick a different trait.

But for a barbarian build you should just use the natural weapons and dump the claw blades entirely. Hopefully that was clear.


The point is to not use manufactured weapons. Claw blades make them manufactured weapons, meaning that if you use 1, you're getting one full strength attack and two half-strength attacks at -2, and another few full strength attacks at -5 and -10 (BAD DEAL).

If you don't use Claw blades, you get three Full Strength attacks without penalty.

^ that.


I'll only be taking a -2 to hit, I shouldn't be whiffing.

Your first two and your bite (with a feat) will be at -2. Your subsequent attacks will be at -7 and lower.

Without a bonus damage mechanic to offset the half-strength mod I don't think it's worth it.