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View Full Version : Survival skills for a City or Dungeon



henebry
2007-03-18, 06:48 PM
As a GM, I've never been clear what skill to use when characters need to avoid getting lost while wandering around in a big city or underground labyrinth. The Survival skill covers getting lost in a wilderness, but it doesn't seem appropriate to an urban or underground situation, particularly given that it's not a class skill for rogues.

Here are a few scenarios that have come up in my games where I've wound up using Survival, even though I knew it wasn't quite the right attribute.

1) A rogue new to a city trails his mark into the narrow alleys of the lower city. Recon work accomplished, what do I have him roll to find out whether he can find his way back to the tavern where the rest of the party is awaiting his return? More vital, what do I have him roll to find out whether he can lead the party back to the villain's hideout?

2) A party native to the city chases the villain into the sewer system. What do I have them roll to see if they can figure out that, with all the twists and turns, they've been heading generally NW all this time (DC 15), and with the distance they've covered, they must be just about underneath the main market square (DC 20 or maybe DC 25)?

3) A party has trailed a villain to the Hall of the Fire Giant King. They set up in a hideout overlooking the entrance, and the party wizard casts Prying Eyes, giving the tiny constructs instructions to enter the complex, fan out, and report back with information. Assuming most of the eyes make it back intact and the Wizard uses the information obtained to sketch a crude map (or uses it to guide a raiding party) what roll should I require for the Wizard to draw each key detail right (or guide the party at each key juncture)?

Falconsflight
2007-03-18, 07:05 PM
Well, why do they have to get lost? I mean, unless they split up, it's rather hard to lose each other. And if these people split up in a new city before finding a return point... well they aren't exactly the smartest of people.

anyway, to the scenarios.

1) I don't think this needs a roll. If you are used to trailing a mark, or at least know that you are in a strange city, you would probably mark where you are going, so you don't lose yourself. If you want to give him a check, make him roll a percentile - too low, he gets lost. He can't remember one of his marks.

2) This is a survival check. It is to determine where you are in the world. To know directions and the like.

3) Just draw the map how you would want them to see it. But if you can't or don't want to - I can see that as being a survival check... maybe.

Inyssius Tor
2007-03-18, 07:12 PM
I believe Int is typically used for memory, and so I would just have the rogue in #1 make a plain Int check. The second case seems like an "in tune with your surroundings" thing, so I would have them roll Wis. The third case... hmm. It could go either way; I think I'd flip a coin to decide.

The reason why I would adjucate the first case as Int and the second as Wis: in a city, the rogue would probably be semi-unconsciously memorizing a list of street signs ("left on 10th, right onto Mockingbird, then into the third alley past Redwater Bridge, take a right onto 14th...") or visual landmarks. In a sewer system, they all look like tunnels; there isn't really much to remember as such.

clarkvalentine
2007-03-18, 07:20 PM
If uncertainty in these things is really vital to the story, I usually go with what I see as the rough equivalents to Survival in urban environments: Knowledge (local) and Gather Information.

Usually, however, I don't consider this sort of thing vital to the story. Whether the rogue can remember his marks isn't interesting to our group, in other words, so I just give it to them.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-18, 07:30 PM
1) Nothing in RAW... perhaps an Int check with a relatively low DC... synergy from Know(Local) (i.e. +2 on the check with 5 ranks in Know(Local))...

2) Survival, with synergy (i.e. +2 with 5 ranks) from both Know(Dungeoneering) and Know(Local) -- and don't forget to let the party "discuss" their guesses -- probably adding an "aid another" boost...

3) If you don't want to be mean and make the wizard make an untrained craft:drawing check... (My Seer has ranks in craft:drawing because this made sense to me...) Then probably again a relatively easy Int check. Come to think of it... that's the same as an untrained craft:drawing check, since it's an Int-based skill that can be checked untrained...

Jasdoif
2007-03-18, 07:34 PM
Like Falconsflight said, you don't usually need a check to avoid getting lost in a city. A city is essentially a mass of landmarks, it should easy to figure out your way around. And if you somehow are lost, a DC 10 Gather Information check should be enough to get you to a particular public building, like the inn your party is staying at.

If you're trying to locate someone in particular, the Urban Tracking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#urbanTracking) feat is what you want.

Anyway.

1) If your rogue has a decent memory and/or wrote down the name of a nearby building to the hideout, you shouldn't need to make a check.

2) This would be a Survival check for the direction. If it's during the day, they should be able to hear the sounds of the market from the sewer, so I wouldn't bother making a check to see how exact their navigation was.

3) Making a map? A Profession (cartographer) check. DC 10 should be sufficient for getting the general layout correct, with higher results giving more detail. If you don't have the skill...well, an untrained Wisdom check should be sufficient as well for a basic map, since the task is easy.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-18, 08:19 PM
Like Falconsflight said, you don't usually need a check to avoid getting lost in a city. A city is essentially a mass of landmarks, it should easy to figure out your way around. And if you somehow are lost, a DC 10 Gather Information check should be enough to get you to a particular public building, like the inn your party is staying at.

If you're in the middle of an unknown part of town and you're heading to a non-landmark in another unknown part of town, the buildings are just as much "landmarks" as oddly-shaped boulders. I'd make it a Knowledge (local) check. Gather Information to get directions if you are lost.

Incidentally, have you ever missed your exit on a highway?

Of course, all this assumes a relatively large city. A medieval village may be too small to get lost in.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-18, 09:38 PM
Profession(Cartographer)??? No!

Next you'll be having your cleric use a Profession(Alchemist) check to make tindertwigs.

Remember the all-important distinction between Craft and Profession (besides using Int for one and Wis for the other):

A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm)

While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm)

henebry
2007-03-18, 09:42 PM
1) I don't think this needs a roll. If you are used to trailing a mark, or at least know that you are in a strange city, you would probably mark where you are going, so you don't lose yourself. If you want to give him a check, make him roll a percentile - too low, he gets lost. He can't remember one of his marks.
Why use precentile? Why not the extant d20 skill system? And it does need a roll. Have you ever been in an old European city? Especially the narrow streets where the lower classes once lived? They've all been prettified now, but back in 1450 you could easily have become lost and you wouldn't have wanted to ask directions of the locals. :smallwink:


2) This is a survival check. It is to determine where you are in the world. To know directions and the like.
Maybe so, but if so it's strange that it's a class skill for Rangers and not for Rogues. It seems to me that orienting one's self in a city is unquestionably a skill that's too easily taken for granted by us because we are (1) cityfolk and (2) we live (most of us) in rectilinear cities. A Ranger's skill in picking out wilderness landmarks isn't really very helpful in picking out useful landmarks in a city. Maybe I should just use Knowledge: Local for characters trying to orient themselves, follow directions, or remember their path through a city, allowing untrained characters to roll simply an Int check.

As for underground complexes (sewer systems, the dungeons of the Fire Giant king, etc.) it seems to me they require a different skill set from either city or wilderness. Maybe Knowledge: engineering would make a good fit here. I put these questions out because I'd hoped there was a rule I was missing. I gather there isn't one; and I get the impression that the problem hasn't bothered other DMs.

Jasdoif
2007-03-19, 02:35 AM
Profession(Cartographer)??? No!

Next you'll be having your cleric use a Profession(Alchemist) check to make tindertwigs.

Remember the all-important distinction between Craft and Profession (besides using Int for one and Wis for the other):

A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm)

While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm)The difference is that making a map is not creating an item.

A tindertwig is created from raw materials, that's the type of process the Craft skill describes. A map, on the other hand, is a piece of paper with ink on it. Neither the paper nor ink is created as part of the mapmaking process. That the ink is arranged to convey geographical information doesn't change that.

Notice that both bookkeeper and scribe, which are similar in concept to cartography, are both mentioned as Profession categories in the PHB (when I made the original post I was sure I had seen cartographer there as well, obviously I was in error on that since cartographer isn't mentioned in the PHB under Profession or Craft).


I put these questions out because I'd hoped there was a rule I was missing. I gather there isn't one; and I get the impression that the problem hasn't bothered other DMs.If you're so inclined, you could add in D20 Modern's Navigate (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Skills.php?Name=Navigate) skill.