Paladin of Asmodeus: Why or Why not?

[Xuldarinar]

What is your take on the concept and how would you approach it if at all? Why or why not have a paladin (or "paladin") of Asmodeus?

[Abd al-Azrad]

Let's just assume your DM okays the concept and doesn't fight you on the Alignment issue.

I imagine the biggest hang-up would be in that you Paladin cannot willingly associate with evil characters, including the most devout of your own clergy. You could probably get around that by calling yourself a Reformed Paladin of the Serpent, only associating with the less ruthless priests and followers of the Lord of Hell, and constantly distancing yourself from the really nasty things people of the faith do ("No true Asmodean would enact a eugenics program!")

After that, your focus becomes heavy-handed Lawbringer. You are willing to consider exceptional circumstances when the letter and spirit of the law differ radically, but for the most part, you respect the wisdom of each land's rulers. In your ideal world, the divine right to rule is a powerful force of good. Citizens should challenge the will of their rulers only in the most dire of circumstance, and even then they should use the existing systems to air their grievances. Yes, there may be suffering in the world, but surely that is the will of the Gods - through suffering, we build endurance, we earn our way into the Eternal Kingdom (of Hell). You are not one to challenge the wisdom of your Lord, you are an instrument to carry out His divine Will.

I can see a Paladin of Asmodeus getting very invested in dethroning illegitimate rulers, as an exception to the above. This would probably be your trump card which allows you to take action against clearly evil kings. If someone can show you proof that a king (or other ruler) has gained their title and power through deception, their divine protection is forfeit. They are, indeed, defying the divine orderly structure of the cosmos, and need quick and severe justice.

It might be easier to play this as an Inquisitor, but I do like messing around with the Paladin. For the least part, your party will be constantly telling you what a Paladin ought to do and say and think, so you can laugh at them for trying to force you to RP their way.

[Novawurmson]

It's worth noting that some Golarion sources mention that paladins of Asmodeus exist. If you're playing in that setting, we're already past "if" and into "how" and "why."

I'd focus heavily on making and keeping contracts, enforcing legitimate authority, ending chaos and "uncivilized" behavior, etc. Maybe a bit about following the law makes the world better for everyone/greater good.

[LTwerewolf]

Paladin of Tyranny?

[Oracle_of_Void]

I thing a re-fluffed anti-paladin might be right for the job. Some of the abilities might needed tweaked to align with the fluff of course. Or, as it has been suggested, convert the 3.5 paladin of tyranny to PF (as far as I know, it hasn't been converted officially yet and I have no idea about third party)

[Taveena]

If you're allowed to steal the code from 3.5e, consider the Despot from Dragon #312. While they have to be Lawful Evil, they /are/ allowed to associate with good characters. (If you read Discworld, think Vetinari - while /always/ willing to engage in NECESSARY cruelty - maybe even enjoying it - unnecessary cruelty is just... unnecessary.) As it is I'd ask to refluff the Antipaladin - but as long as there isn't a Paladin or Chaotic character in the party and you keep your cruelty /necessary/, they won't object. A Despot would always work For The Greater Good - or rather, For The Greater Law. Stability and safety for your subjects is first and foremost... the others? Well, you gave them the chance to submit.

[The Oni]

The question honestly is: what is your character concept, and how aware is he/she of Asmodeus's true nature? This comes down to Wisdom score, basically.

If low: Asmodeus isn't called the Prince of Lies for no reason. His arguments are exquisitely convincing. A young, misguided Lawful Good paladin could totally fall into/fit into Asmodeus's ranks, at least temporarily. In which case I would say yes, go with heavy-handed Lawbringer. Be good, but be more Law than Good, respect rightful leadership, etc. Express disgust for your less-noble fellows' actions.

If high: You're aware Asmodeus is a despot and a tyrant, and that's OK. Sometimes to make an omelet you need to eviscerate your enemies and their children and reanimate their skulls as sentries on your borders. Go refluffed anti-paladin, with Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic Evil alignment, but dress in full-on Shining Knight Regalia (because why not? More flies with honey than vinegar, after all) and interpret the paladin code and indeed all laws as literally and as much to your advantage as possible.

[Extra Anchovies]

To take this on a bit of a tangent, why is Asmodeus the default? Of all the archfiends, I would think that Bel would be the most likely to attract Paladins of a sort; after all, he is the chief general in the Blood War, which lends him nicely to martial worshippers, and also is described in FCII as being willing to deal fairly and honestly with mortals who can contribute to his goal of stemming the tide of Chaos.

[T.G. Oskar]

@Anchovies: the OP speaks about Pathfinder, where Asmodeus is a god. Not sure who are the other Lords of Hell, though I believe Beelzebub, Mammon and Leviathan are some. Not very knowledgeable about Golarion content, after all (besides, I prefer the celestial host, aka the Empyreal Lords, by default).

On topic: perhaps it's outsourcing? I recall seeing in the Pathfinder Wiki (the one that deals with the lore) that Iomedae consults with Asmodeus on things; she consults his wisdom, but doesn't trust him a bit, so they're more on a professional relationship. Most likely, being the deity related with contracts (and the fine print), maybe Iomedae has to pay by providing the powers of Good by proxy, most likely in Cheliax where Law is absolute.

Other than that, I find it impossible. Paladins MUST be Lawful Good, and I'm pretty sure no Archon would sponsor someone branded by the Lord of Hell. The existence of "Paladins of Asmodeus", IIRC, is considered rumors at best; most likely, those are Champions of Asmodeus' Faith (Warpriests with the Archetype, somehow using Bestow Grace of the Champion at every battle). That's one way to refluff the class into a "Paladin".

[Arutema]

It's worth noting that some Golarion sources mention that paladins of Asmodeus exist. If you're playing in that setting, we're already past "if" and into "how" and "why."

It's worth noting that James Jacobs (Paizo's creative director for the setting) has said they've been retconned out, presumably replaced with Inquisitors and Warpriests, just like Paizo's 3.5 material had Clerics of concepts which were retconned to Oracles in later releases.


I'd focus heavily on making and keeping contracts, enforcing legitimate authority, ending chaos and "uncivilized" behavior, etc. Maybe a bit about following the law makes the world better for everyone/greater good.

Ironically, that sounds almost exactly like Abadar's paladin code from Inner Sea Gods.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

It's fairly easy to justify that worldview;


1) Human civilization and acheivement is built on Order. Trade, settlements, technology, knowledge, even common language, communication and social interaction requires rules and laws. Thus Order is the absolute Good in the universe as it is the basis upon which every other good is based.
(i.e. the paladin equates Law with Good)

2) Freedom is a lie perpetuated by the (evil) forces of chaos. Sentient beings can't be free and be sentient at the same time - they learn the languages of others, live within an ordered society, have rights acknowledged by law, accept the values universal to civilization. In a world of freedom there would be no right of life as everyone would be free to murder, everyone would be thieves as there would be no right of property, the more powerful would utterly subjugate the weak as there would be no laws to limit their power, everyone would be a liar and a cheat as everyone would be free to speak as they want regardless of truth, decency, or the influence brought by their words.
(i.e. the paladin equates Freedom with Evil)

3) Divine Law is absolute; only the gods of Order are capable of defining laws that are just and equal to all. In comparison, mortal governments are often flawed and corrupt, especially those based on the consent of the masses. Just as a child needs harsh discipline to grow into a good, successful and powerful man, so do societies need to have Order imposed to them in any way necessary, for they are incapable of doing so on their own.
(i.e. spare the rod spoil the child, and the end justifies the means)

4) People are NOT equal; some can acheive more than others. Some choose to acheive more than others. Some choose to acheive more for society than themselves. Thus a fair law cannot treat the mighty hero that strives every day for the good of all the same as the useless beggar that never tries to better himself that is a constant drain to society. Equality in the eyes of the Law would have everyone take the easiest path of passive selfishness as it's the easiest and if society did not promote acheivement it would soon collapse under the weight of its own corruption. Thus the only way for a fair law to work is a harsh meritocracy where the measure of a man is acheivement, and acts of benefit to society are virtue.
(i.e. the paladin equates acheivement and ambition with Good)




Once you have a paladin with those beliefs, worshipping Asmodeus would come naturally.

[Xuldarinar]

All very good approaches to the concept. Im actually pleased this hadn't rapidly devolved into the territory of other threads I've seen out there on the subject, filled with opposition.



Yes, the paladin class is the obvious choice for a paladin, but there are others. Classes that can call themselves knights can call themselves paladins and these certainly exist for Asmodeus. A warpriest could certainly fit the bill as well, especially champions of the faith. Inquisitors, oracles, and clerics could go more down the partial path and present themselves as a paladin (channel smite helps this). A magus could try to present themselves as a paladin as well, bonus points on eldritch scion which is Cha based and takes on a bloodrager bloodline.


Of course the paths of the informed paladin, the misinformed paladin, and the paladin being manipulated by Asmodeus all work to varying degrees and are all literally paladins, not just presenting themselves as such. Anti-paladin, I do not favor as an option but it would work especially when you flip it to LE (love the idea of taking the Despot's Code). Not to mention there is an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/fire-mountain-games---antipaladin-archetypes/lord-of-darkness) that suits it perfectly.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I'm not sure that "flipping" the Antipaladin to be Lawful is any better than allowing a Paladin of a LE God. Which is actually to say, if you're going to allow the LE Antipaladin, why not the Paladin? They're both the same distance away from LE - 2 steps on the alignment chart, or "radically different alignments."

If I may ask, why do you want this to be a Paladin of Asmodeus? It's likely relevant.

[Taveena]

(Incidentally the Pathfinder supplement, Ultimate Evil, has Pathfinder rules for Paladins of all 9 alignments.)

[grarrrg]

Just here to throw out the Hellknight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight), which is basically "Lawful-only Paladin".

[Telonius]

Personally I houserule to allow Paladins of all alignments. (I tailor each Code to the deity or cause, but that's another story). Mechanically, it's not that difficult to approximate. Detect, Smite, and Aura change to match the new alignment; Lay On Hands and Turn Undead channels positive or negative energy same as a Cleric; any Paladin-based Feat (like Celestial Mount) has an alternate-alignment version; and some of the alignment-based Paladin spells change (Holy Sword becomes Unholy or Axiomatic or Anarchic Sword, Paladins can't cast [alignment] spells in opposition to their deity, etc).

I consider a "paladin" to be a direct representative of a deity or cause, and an exemplar of what that deity or cause is supposed to be. The power comes from both the deity (or cause) and the Paladin's belief and dedication. I don't see any reason that Asmodeus (or any other Archfiend or evil deity) couldn't grant that sort of power to a mortal if he found it in his interests to do so.

[Zubrowka74]

Just here to throw out the Hellknight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight), which is basically "Lawful-only Paladin".

Devil-flavored for your convenience!

Only problem is it's against the devils. COuld be refluffed, Detect Law to Detect Chaos and such.

[Ssalarn]

Devil-flavored for your convenience!

Only problem is it's against the devils. COuld be refluffed, Detect Law to Detect Chaos and such.

Order of the Godclaw in Golarion is an order representing the 5 lawful deities that claims paladins as its members, so a Paladin of that order could potentially venerate Asmodeus foremost (perhaps he's from an area in Cheliax where Asmodeus is worshipped as the Lord of Law and isn't familiar with his more heinous aspects), but gains his powers from the pantheon as a whole, or one of its members. Alternatively, paladins don't need to be fueled by a deity at all; their powers come from their vows and are direct channels from the universal forces of good and law (this is actually the default assumption of the Pathfinder CRB), and the paladin has been tricked into believing that it is really Asmodeus who empowers him. Asmodeus would certainly have any number of uses for a servant of unimpeachable character representing his interests.

[LTwerewolf]

I could totally see Asmodeus having his own evil paladins that are dedicated to destroying devils. He's gotta have ways (key word ways, not just way) to keep everyone in line.

[Telonius]

I could totally see Asmodeus having his own evil paladins that are dedicated to destroying devils. He's gotta have ways (key word ways, not just way) to keep everyone in line.

Knowing Asmo, there would probably be several different Orders at any given moment, not all of whom are aware of the others' existence.

[LTwerewolf]

Knowing Asmo, there would probably be several different Orders at any given moment, not all of whom are aware of the others' existence.

Exactly. And then orders of knights/paladins that are dedicated to keeping those orders in check. And an order that keeps that one in check, which is kept in check by some devils...

[Kudaku]

While I realize this is not an exact fit for what you have in mind, the Iroran Paladin (known as the Enlightened Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype) on the PFSRD) is a paladin archetype that does not have to be good-aligned or follow the paladin code of conduct. You could play a frustrated Iroran Paladin who switched to worshiping Asmodeus in order to enforce the tenets of Order on the world?

Edit: Just realized there is some ambiguity on the alignment requirement. Personally I read it to mean that the iroran paladin does not have to be lawful good, but your mileage may vary.

[Synar]

It's just my opinion, but I personally think that a misguided good/inquisitor/differnet interpretation of law and good kind of character is far more intersting than a paladin of evil that does evil for evil. Really, I must say I always found having a code that requires you to do evil for the sake of evil to be particularly silly. I mean, in real life, most evil acts are commited out of pragmatism (or emotions), or because the one commiting them is persuaded to act for a cause or for the greater good, and I believe that people who are certain of doing the wrong thing without rationalisation or being driven by emotion/madness (so not a written code) are exceptionally scarce.

So yeah for the paladin of Asmodeus (and not anti-paladin)!

[Bluydee]

Note Asmodeus was the original two beings with Ihys in pathfinder. After killing Ihys he could've destroyed free will but instead created hell as an example of what he'll come back and do one day. Essentially, Asmodeus is more lawful than evil. He started the war with his brother over law and chaos instead of good and evil. He believes in survival of the fittest. Your paladin can believe in necessary tyranny to stop all the chaos, and essentially be more lawful than good.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hellknights aren't really against devils; the requirement you defeat one is more of a test. Order of the Gate in particular has a lot of dealings with them.

[The Oni]

Hellknights aren't really against devils; the requirement you defeat one is more of a test. Order of the Gate in particular has a lot of dealings with them.

Right. The Hellknights don't hate devils at all, in fact they admire their ability to get results, and their ranks are modeled after Hell's legions. Defeating the devil is more like proving you're disciplined and worthy enough to emulate them.

[grarrrg]

the Iroran Paladin (known as the Enlightened Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype) on the PFSRD) is a paladin archetype that does not have to be good-aligned...

Edit: Just realized there is some ambiguity on the alignment requirement. Personally I read it to mean that the iroran paladin does not have to be lawful good, but your mileage may vary.

There is no ambiguity on the Alignment.
No part of the archetype mentions alignment at all, therefore it is unchanged, and still LG-only.

The Code is still up in the air, but you are still required to have/make a Code.
"Irori offers no universal paladin code— each paladin in his service creates his own code as part of his spiritual journey, seeing the adherence to such a self-formulated creed as one of the many tests one must face to reach perfection."

[AnonymousPepper]

It's absolutely not rules-legal.

That said, I have one in a game I'm GMing. His character concept was for an INT7 WIS7 (this is 3.PF, so his stuff is all CHA-based) LG Paladin of Asmodeus from Cheliax who was literally too stupid to realize that Asmodeus was Evil. He genuinely believes that the Big A is LG and that the rest of his church is misguided - not actively, maliciously wrong, because he is fundamentally naive (to the extreme - I say again, from Cheliax) and good-natured.

It being absolutely hilarious, and knowing him to be a very good roleplayer, I allowed it, provided he paid a feat tax (Heretic of the Faith, still doesn't allow him by RAW but I let it slide).

And he RPs it flawlessly. He rolls WIS and INT on a lot of decisions and is hilariously easy to distract, and the party has adjusted to and takes advantage of this. For example, the party's in Waterdeep right now, with Thay being the campaign bad guys, and the party has been contacted by the Church of Mystra offering assistance in tracking a gnome down. The Artificer rolled a high Knowledge Local and knows that the Magister of the Church of Mystra is evil (as per Waterdeep: City of Splendors' section on Meleghost Starseer [although the PCs don't know that he actively supports the Thayan Enclave]), but also knows that the pally might just blab it out to the wrong person, so said Artificer pulled a gold coin out of his pocket, threw it when the pally wasn't watching, and then feigned dropping it and politely asked him to go get it. The dude rolled WIS and an opposed Sense Motive, failed easily, and walked off to find the thing while the Artificer told the rest of the party.

Like I said. Not at all rules-legal. But uproariously funny.

In a game that doesn't take itself too seriously - like mine - with a player who knows how to properly roleplay his character, this is the sort of stretch of the rules that's absolutely justified.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wait, I might not be the best Fantasy Cartographer, but I am fairly certain that Waterdeep and Cheliax inhabit two different universes. Dimension hopping, or map splicing?

Admittedly, I am very fond of Lawful Evil, so making a Lawful variant of the Antipaladin would tickle me pink. I think that it just has a much different flavor then a CE one, so I am a bit sad it wasn't present.

[AnonymousPepper]

Wait, I might not be the best Fantasy Cartographer, but I am fairly certain that Waterdeep and Cheliax inhabit two different universes. Dimension hopping, or map splicing?

Dimension hopping. Sigil shenanigans to be specific.

[Honest Tiefling]

You will be my favorite person of the week if the Paladin wandered into the wrong world without noticing.

[AnonymousPepper]

You will be my favorite person of the week if the Paladin wandered into the wrong world without noticing.

I would not put it past him. I really would not. Lathander knows he's dumb enough (speaking of which: there's also an oracle of Lathander whose entire schtick is praising the sun, and his travel cloak even produces Sunny D instead of tea).



Anyway, point is, on the right player, with the right attitude, with the right game, with the right party, the right DM... basically, in appropriate conditions, the answer to the title of the thread is "yes." Much like any other bit of close-but-not-right rule-bending shenanigans (in this case, Heretic of the Faith allows players to be one off their deity's alignment; here it grants two off for a one-time deal), really. If you have the correct general game setup for it, and you trust the player to play it well, it's absolutely a valid use of rule zero to allow it.

[The Oni]

It's absolutely not rules-legal.

That said, I have one in a game I'm GMing. His character concept was for an INT7 WIS7 (this is 3.PF, so his stuff is all CHA-based) LG Paladin of Asmodeus from Cheliax who was literally too stupid to realize that Asmodeus was Evil.

At one point in a PFS game, my LG Int 20/Wis 7/Cha 7 Witch actually managed to take wisdom damage, to where he was literally at a 4 Wis, and the party cleric nearly converted him to the faith of Asmodeus. Nothing came of it because we didn't have time to roleplay that session, being PFS, but it was nevertheless hilarious

[AnonymousPepper]

At one point in a PFS game, my LG Int 20/Wis 7/Cha 7 Witch actually managed to take wisdom damage, to where he was literally at a 4 Wis, and the party cleric nearly converted him to the faith of Asmodeus. Nothing came of it because we didn't have time to roleplay that session, being PFS, but it was nevertheless hilarious

In an inverse scenario, the Artificer has considered putting a +4 INT and WIS booster on him, with one of the free knowledges keyed to Knowledge (Religion).

I've told him this would be a very Evil action.