Magic the Gathering XX: KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!!

[Androgeus]

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

Well, hello, hello, hello and good day to you here at Giant in the Playground! This is the 20th official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander Commander, or any other awesome Magical exploits.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We would love to bring more players in, and help you get started!

On Card Spoilers: Currently as far as I understand most posters here don't mind having the next set of cards spoiled. So we can post them. However if someone request cards to be spoiled we will probably oblige them.

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.

Note: This is horribly out of date.
The Deck Gallery:


Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.



Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.


Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).


Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:



MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:


Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer
Deck:
Lands:
3x Cabal Coffers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205421)
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=131005)
20x Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259283)

Creatures:
2x Pestilence Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193431)
4x Stuffy Doll (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116724)
4x Cemetary Gate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2914)
4x Reassembling Skeleton (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226565)

Enchantments:
4x Pestilence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21149)
4x Circle of Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126803)

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Consume Spirit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244249)
4x Diabolic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221519)
1x Demonic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202628)
2x Bubbling Muck (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15179)
4x Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221510)
1x Culling the Weak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6085)

Description:
This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
This list has been maintained by Squark, tgva, Johnny Blade, Shas, and Duos in the past.
Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

previous thread: Magic the Gathering XIX: Heroic- Bump this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339690-Magic-the-Gathering-XIX-Heroic-Bump-this-thread)

[Zombimode]

Reposting my last message:

Its time for: MIRAGE BLOCK CONSTRUCTED
(Well, almost)

Do note: I'm not preparing for an actual tournament here or anything. "Mirage Block Constructed" is just a deck building constraint I've put upon myself. I'm playing against a field of usual casual decks and surprisingly competitive pauper decks. Free-for-all multiplayer more often then not.

Mirage is a cool block with often gorgeous art and an distinctive old-school-feel. It's power level is lower then more modern blocks, of course, but it has a lot of fine cards. I think there are quite a few interesting decks you can build with this cardbase. From just looking through the card list I see a R/B land destruction, a mono black crypt rats deck, a quirky R/G flyers deck, reanimator (sadly with mediocre targets: Spirit of the Night?) and even a Jund midrange deck. Probably many more.

But my first foray into this "format" starts with a classic: U/W control (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uwcontrol-mirage-block-adarkar-wastes/).

I've included the Adarkar Wastes because the deck has a good number of both WW and UU spells and with just basics, Flood Plains and Gemstone Mines I fear that I will be color screwed more often then I would like. And Adarkar Wastes are in 5th Edition, so they are almost kinda legal, right? :smalltongue:
But when I finally get all the cards together I will try a version without Adarkar Wastes and see how it goes.

The single Bösium Strip could easily be something else instead but the cards looks cool.
Judging from the many 4-of's it is a very unrefined version of the deck, so I'm open for suggestions and comments :smallsmile:

[Khay]

Continuing a discussion from the last thread (about creatures to run in a budget Modern Tron):


Soul of New Phyrexia and Scuttling Doom Engine cost the same to cast as Wurmcoil, and are significantly cheaper.

They are! I'm not sure if they fulfill quite the same role though. The way it's been explained to me, Tron runs Wurmcoil Engine to deal with aggro decks, which it does nicely 'cause it's hard to remove and gains you a lot of life. SDE is very much on the aggressive end itself, so I'm not sure if it does what I want. Soul of New Phyrexia seems very nice, though. Another thing I was looking at would be Myr Battlesphere because of the friends it brings with it. Thoughts?

[Mystic Muse]

I've only played Tron once, and even then it was B/G Tron, so I'm not entirely sure. I do know that occasionally, the difference between 6 mana and 7 is incredibly relevant.

And I'm aware they don't fulfill the same role, but that's why they're budget versions. :smalltongue: It's sort of like how I edit my Modern Abzan Midrange deck to deal with the lack of Tarmogoyf, because I can't afford Tarmogoyfs. Or, rather, I could probably buy them if I tried hard enough to get the money for them, but I can't justify their price.

[Tvtyrant]

Continuing a discussion from the last thread (about creatures to run in a budget Modern Tron):



They are! I'm not sure if they fulfill quite the same role though. The way it's been explained to me, Tron runs Wurmcoil Engine to deal with aggro decks, which it does nicely 'cause it's hard to remove and gains you a lot of life. SDE is very much on the aggressive end itself, so I'm not sure if it does what I want. Soul of New Phyrexia seems very nice, though. Another thing I was looking at would be Myr Battlesphere because of the friends it brings with it. Thoughts?

Have you considered any of the Masticore family? They are famously good at smashing aggro due to their lightning bolt abilities, have cheap regen, and are big enough to stand up to most creatures in the format in a fight. Molten-Tail Masticore is probably the stronger of the two in general but Razormane is better for Tron.

[Fable Wright]

They are! I'm not sure if they fulfill quite the same role though. The way it's been explained to me, Tron runs Wurmcoil Engine to deal with aggro decks, which it does nicely 'cause it's hard to remove and gains you a lot of life. SDE is very much on the aggressive end itself, so I'm not sure if it does what I want. Soul of New Phyrexia seems very nice, though. Another thing I was looking at would be Myr Battlesphere because of the friends it brings with it. Thoughts?

Hm. It depends on what signets or other incidental splashes you run. Sphinx of the Steel Wind looks great, as it puts out a clock, is very hard to deal with, and gains a huge sum of life. If you're running 4 Azorious and 4 Dimir Signets as ramp, there's a good chance you'll be able to put it down with some degree of reliability. If instead you're running Azorius Signets and Talismans of Progress, you might do well with Felidar Sovereign. (The 6 toughness means that it's very hard to kill, and Vigilance + Lifelink means that it's very good at helping stabilize.) Or maybe Baneslayer, though that dies to Shrapnel Blast. Otherwise... you don't really have a lot of options. Esper signets with Sphinx of the Steel Wind looks the most solid, though.

[Khay]

Great suggestions all around, thanks! :smallsmile:


And I'm aware they don't fulfill the same role, but that's why they're budget versions. :smalltongue: It's sort of like how I edit my Modern Abzan Midrange deck to deal with the lack of Tarmogoyf, because I can't afford Tarmogoyfs. Or, rather, I could probably buy them if I tried hard enough to get the money for them, but I can't justify their price.

Oh, sorry, I think I phrased that a little badly - I didn't mean to say I want the replacements to be as effective as what they're replacing. That's kind of a pipe dream, I think. What I meant was that the Scuttling Doom Engine doesn't strike me as very controlling, or good in a matchup against aggro. More like something an aggro deck would run to get the final points of damage across. It's the impression I'm getting, at least.


Have you considered any of the Masticore family? They are famously good at smashing aggro due to their lightning bolt abilities, have cheap regen, and are big enough to stand up to most creatures in the format in a fight. Molten-Tail Masticore is probably the stronger of the two in general but Razormane is better for Tron.

Ah, Masticores, those are a classic. :smallbiggrin: The two do look pretty good! It's kind of a shame Razormane Masticore doesn't regenerate, since I expect to see a lot of Ancient Grudges coming my way in game 2, but I'll definitely have to look into it.


Hm. It depends on what signets or other incidental splashes you run. Sphinx of the Steel Wind looks great, as it puts out a clock, is very hard to deal with, and gains a huge sum of life. If you're running 4 Azorious and 4 Dimir Signets as ramp, there's a good chance you'll be able to put it down with some degree of reliability. If instead you're running Azorius Signets and Talismans of Progress, you might do well with Felidar Sovereign. (The 6 toughness means that it's very hard to kill, and Vigilance + Lifelink means that it's very good at helping stabilize.) Or maybe Baneslayer, though that dies to Shrapnel Blast. Otherwise... you don't really have a lot of options. Esper signets with Sphinx of the Steel Wind looks the most solid, though.

Sphinx of the Steel Wind looks super tempting, I have to admit. I mean, yeah, it costs a billion mana, but being able to cast billion-mana spells is the reason to run Tron, right? If I want to run Sphinx, I'll probably have to go full Esper. Esper Tron... fitting, no? :smalltongue: Felidar Sovereign is less taxing, and being able to sometimes steal games via an alternative victory condition... mmh, tempting. I'll have to experiment a little, see if there's something else in Esper colours I really want to run.

Also: Running cards with several mana symbols in the cost gives me another excuse to run Trade Routes.

[Duck999]

What is up with mana fixing? Everyone around me plays a ton of mana fixing in two color decks that are relatively evenly split. I, on the other hand, play almost no mana fixing in any two color deck. Same with three color. People I know play at least half their lands multicolor in tri color decks. I play almost all basic lands, and it tends to work. Are these people just bad at ratios for how many of each type they should put in, or am I missing something?

[Mystic Muse]

What is up with mana fixing? Everyone around me plays a ton of mana fixing in two color decks that are relatively evenly split. I, on the other hand, play almost no mana fixing in any two color deck. Same with three color. People I know play at least half their lands multicolor in tri color decks. I play almost all basic lands, and it tends to work. Are these people just bad at ratios for how many of each type they should put in, or am I missing something?

It's a matter of consistency. A deck with 4 basic lands, 4 shocklands (Or original duals), and 8 fetchlands (The tap, pay 1 life, search your library lands) is going to be more consistent in getting its mana (And still resilient to Path to exile), than a deck with all basics. That also leaves room for 6-8 utility lands, or more of one of the aforementioned types, whereas with an all basics deck, colorless lands are a really bad idea.

Fetchlands can also fetch you basics in response to your opponent playing some sort of non-basic land hate, such as blood moon, which can be incredibly relevant.

The cards in your deck also matter a lot. A card that allows you to play it with either of two types of mana is generally going to be significantly easier to cast than something that always require two types of mana, or a lot of only one.

So, basically, it depends on the deck.

[Duck999]

That makes sense, I just prefer basics to avoid enter the battlefield tapped or pay life effects. Also in commander, I play less lands than everyone I know. I play 33, while they play 39-45. What do you guys play? Just want to know for a little personal study.

[Mystic Muse]

That makes sense, I just prefer basics to avoid enter the battlefield tapped or pay life effects. Also in commander, I play less lands than everyone I know. I play 33, while they play 39-45. What do you guys play? Just want to know for a little personal study.

Hey, to each their own, I'm certainly not going to criticize your preference. :smallsmile:

It varies a lot depending on the deck and the mana costs involve. If it's 5 color, exactly 40, no more, no less. If I'm playing my mono-white deck, I can probably get away with 35. I never play more than 40.

[Duck999]

I wouldn't be able to handle over 40. I would just get way too mad at all the lands I draw. I mainly do two color commander decks, so I play the same amount almost every time. I still get mana flooded. The only good part about that is my Daxos deck has two cards that get me creatures by paying mana and returning lands to my hand.

[gooddragon1]

Having fun with a very budget deck: Hellbent Lite

12 Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386683)
4 Crypt of Agadeem (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190394)
4 Howltooth Hollow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139513)
=20 Lands

4 Cry of Contrition (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96961)
4 Tragic Slip (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382384)
3 Raven's Crime (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370478)
4 Shrieking Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265409)
1 Elixir of Immortality (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370681)
=15 Non-Creatures

4 Thoughtpicker Witch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83576)
4 Rotting Rats (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205344)
4 Reassembling Skeleton (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368551)
4 Mindlash Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=118867)
3 Lurking Informant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83834)
3 Nezumi Bone-Reader (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=79857)
2 Merrow Bonegnawer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151158)
=25 Creatures

Considering adding 2 more swamps.

No card in this deck costs, or has an activation cost more than 2 mana.

[Mystic Muse]

I wouldn't be able to handle over 40. I would just get way too mad at all the lands I draw. I mainly do two color commander decks, so I play the same amount almost every time. I still get mana flooded. The only good part about that is my Daxos deck has two cards that get me creatures by paying mana and returning lands to my hand.

I use about 40 in my Ghave, and 5 color decks, and still get color screwed, sadly. :smallfrown:

[Duck999]

I use about 40 in my Ghave, and 5 color decks, and still get color screwed, sadly. :smallfrown:

The number doesn't matter if you lack mana fixing. Mana fixing is quality over quantity. You need just as many (or more) lands as normal, but more multicolored or artifacts for mana fixing.

[gooddragon1]

The number doesn't matter if you lack mana fixing. Mana fixing is quality over quantity. You need just as many (or more) lands as normal, but more multicolored or artifacts for mana fixing.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=376249&type=card

If you're at 2 mana, you can play it. It's card advantage in a way because it gets 2 for 1. It'll also get whatever basic lands you need.

[Sith_Happens]

What is up with mana fixing? Everyone around me plays a ton of mana fixing in two color decks that are relatively evenly split. I, on the other hand, play almost no mana fixing in any two color deck. Same with three color. People I know play at least half their lands multicolor in tri color decks. I play almost all basic lands, and it tends to work. Are these people just bad at ratios for how many of each type they should put in, or am I missing something?

You know those times when you have enough total mana available to cast something, but not in the right color proportions? "Everyone around you" has taken steps to avoid having that happen.

[Mystic Muse]

The number doesn't matter if you lack mana fixing. Mana fixing is quality over quantity. You need just as many (or more) lands as normal, but more multicolored or artifacts for mana fixing.

I've got a decent amount of fixing. One thing I'm doing is taking out a few colorless mana producing lands I don't actually have a use for, and am adding the new comes into play tapped duals from Khans, and also tossing in a Chromatic lantern finally. Vorinclex and Mirari's wake will also help, though I wish I had a mana reflection.

[Duck999]

You know those times when you have enough total mana available to cast something, but not in the right color proportions? "Everyone around you" has taken steps to avoid having that happen.
Yeah, I'm not criticizing, I just have differentmexperience. I don't play more than two colors often, and rarely 5, so I may just not have the experience. That's probably likely.

I've got a decent amount of fixing. One thing I'm doing is taking out a few colorless mana producing lands I don't actually have a use for, and am adding the new comes into play tapped duals from Khans, and also tossing in a Chromatic lantern finally. Vorinclex and Mirari's wake will also help, though I wish I had a mana reflection.

And you still get mana screwed? Ouch. Those cards you are putting in should help. Chromatic Lantern is indeed very useful.

[Mystic Muse]

I'll also eventually be getting a Scrubland and Bayou to toss in as well. Those should help quite a bit too.

[Bucky]

What is up with mana fixing? Everyone around me plays a ton of mana fixing in two color decks that are relatively evenly split. I, on the other hand, play almost no mana fixing in any two color deck. Same with three color. People I know play at least half their lands multicolor in tri color decks. I play almost all basic lands, and it tends to work. Are these people just bad at ratios for how many of each type they should put in, or am I missing something?

The hidden factor is the presence of double and triple color requirements for spells. If you have a 24 land Red/Black deck, and none of your spells cost RR or BB, you can probably get away with a 12/12 basics split. But if you're trying to curve an RR creature into a 1BB creature, you literally can't do that with no dual lands.

Even if you only have double color requirements on one side, if you want to reliably hit exactly RBB by turn 3, you need a few lands that can give either color or else your 3-drop will often be late from color-screw.

On the other hand, a basic 8/8/8 split in a tri-color deck would likely malfunction a lot; there's about a 40% chance it will still be missing a color by turn 5!

(E): More generally, the cost of your first enters-tapped land is generally much less than the cost of not having enough of a color, since the enters-tapped land only delays you for one turn and you get to choose which turn.

[ChaosOS]

# of lands in commander is super contingent on how many land drops you need to hit.

If you get the concepts of # of land you want by turn x and the idea of calculating those probabilities, I'll just give you the link to a calculator

http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

This (http://brainstormbrewery.com/unified-theory-of-commander-mana/) article is really good at covering the understanding of how many lands you probably want

[Khay]

Reposting my last message:

Its time for: MIRAGE BLOCK CONSTRUCTED
(Well, almost)

Do note: I'm not preparing for an actual tournament here or anything. "Mirage Block Constructed" is just a deck building constraint I've put upon myself. I'm playing against a field of usual casual decks and surprisingly competitive pauper decks. Free-for-all multiplayer more often then not.

Mirage is a cool block with often gorgeous art and an distinctive old-school-feel. It's power level is lower then more modern blocks, of course, but it has a lot of fine cards. I think there are quite a few interesting decks you can build with this cardbase. From just looking through the card list I see a R/B land destruction, a mono black crypt rats deck, a quirky R/G flyers deck, reanimator (sadly with mediocre targets: Spirit of the Night?) and even a Jund midrange deck. Probably many more.

But my first foray into this "format" starts with a classic: U/W control (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uwcontrol-mirage-block-adarkar-wastes/).

I've included the Adarkar Wastes because the deck has a good number of both WW and UU spells and with just basics, Flood Plains and Gemstone Mines I fear that I will be color screwed more often then I would like. And Adarkar Wastes are in 5th Edition, so they are almost kinda legal, right? :smalltongue:
But when I finally get all the cards together I will try a version without Adarkar Wastes and see how it goes.

The single Bösium Strip could easily be something else instead but the cards looks cool.
Judging from the many 4-of's it is a very unrefined version of the deck, so I'm open for suggestions and comments :smallsmile:

A very fun idea. :smallbiggrin: Reminds me a little of Make Your Own Standard (http://www.magic-league.com/guide/other_formats.php#MYOS) (where you pick to blocks and a Core Set and build a deck using cards from these) - hey, they played it at an Invitational (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/mi07/cyostandarddecklists) once. Good choice of block, too. Mirage had some really gorgeous art.

I kinda feel the deck may want a finisher of its own, though. There's something of a risk your opponent won't really have any game-ending threats you can steal. Serra Angel is unfortunately not an option but maybe an unkillable Blue dragon (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/79.html) might be? As for Counterspells, the block also has the original proto-Remand (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/74.html) in it. Oh, and in case you have to deal with hyper-aggro decks that sneak in under the Retribution, maybe Floodgate (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/67.html) could be an option (if you have something to trigger it)?

Also, not sure how good it is if you're not abusing it, but the Block does have Lotus Vale (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/165.html) in it. Not the best sort of mana-fixing, I suppose, but at least it's some?

[Duck999]

# of lands in commander is super contingent on how many land drops you need to hit.

Yeah. In Commander people tend to play higher mana cost cards. Depending on how many you have, you need more lands, and color works similarly to other formats, except when the amount of lands changes. When you have less lands, it is probably better to have more mana fixing.

[Zombimode]

I kinda feel the deck may want a finisher of its own, though. There's something of a risk your opponent won't really have any game-ending threats you can steal. Serra Angel is unfortunately not an option but maybe an unkillable Blue dragon (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/79.html) might be?

Well, there is Man-o-War beatdown, I guess? :smalltongue:
My reasoning for not including any win conditions on their own is: sure, I could play an Archangel or the dragon or some other large creature from the block. But chances are that my opponents creature are much better than anything I could find within the block. Remember, I won't play this deck against other Mirage block decks. I will play against decks that include Archangel of Thune, Prime Speaker Zegrana or Lord of the Void. Thus, I would rather steal my opponents better creatures than to settle for something mediocre.
But you're right. Against decks without splashy creatures (or artifacts, I guess, since those can be stolen by Desertion, too) this deck my struggle. In the end it is a matter of the decks I will play against with this. The Dragon is a good suggestion, though, should the need arise to play an actual win-con :smallsmile:


As for Counterspells, the block also has the original proto-Remand (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/74.html) in it.

Yeah, I've contemplated between Memory Lapse and Power Sink. I ultimately settled for Power Sink as it actually deals with the countered spell. I feel Power Sink fits this type of deck better then Memory Lapse which I feel would be more at home at a tempo deck (and this deck is so very much not a tempo deck). But I could see arguments for Memory Lapse too. Maybe a split between the two?
Under which circumstances would Memory Lapse be better then Power Sink?


Oh, and in case you have to deal with hyper-aggro decks that sneak in under the Retribution, maybe Floodgate (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/67.html) could be an option (if you have something to trigger it)?

Hm, the leaves-play-effect of floodgate IS nice. One could play Abjure (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4477) as an enabler. With that and Boomerang it could be consistent enough. If a sideboard would actually make sense for casual play I would definitely put 4 Floodgate and 4 Abjure in the 'bord. But it is a card that I will keep in mind. I could see them in other decks as a main piece :smallsmile:

The weakness against fast decks is probably not that problematic as those kind of decks are rarely played in my "meta" (fast aggro decks tend to suck in multiplayer).


Also, not sure how good it is if you're not abusing it, but the Block does have Lotus Vale (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/165.html) in it. Not the best sort of mana-fixing, I suppose, but at least it's some?

I've considered it, but it is a total blowout if the Vale gets destroyed. And while dedicated land-destruction decks are not a thing in my meta, individual land destruction is: Acidic Slime, Ghost Quarter, Beast Within, Capsize...
It's way to risky.

[Ionbound]

So I had a stupid idea. Use Transguild Courier (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107362) to trigger half of Coalition Victory (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coalition%20Victory)'s win condition. So the idea rolling around my head is a deck very similar to a Genju of the Realms deck, with Victory, Transguild, and a few other choice cards in place of the Genjus. Any other ideas on how this might work (or fail spectacularly)?

[Androgeus]

So I had a stupid idea. Use Transguild Courier (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107362) to trigger half of Coalition Victory (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coalition%20Victory)'s win condition. So the idea rolling around my head is a deck very similar to a Genju of the Realms deck, with Victory, Transguild, and a few other choice cards in place of the Genjus. Any other ideas on how this might work (or fail spectacularly)?

Who even needs to play 5 colour when you have Prismatic Omen (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151989).

[Bucky]

Who even needs to play 5 colour when you have Prismatic Omen (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151989).

With Scuttlemutt/Scrapbasket and Nylea's Presence as backup combo pieces.

[Duck999]

Im collecting planeswalkers for superfriends. Question 1: Should I do commander or casual? Question 2: What colors? Green is definite, black and blue are maybes. Red is a little less likely for burn and Xenagos. White is definite.

[Ionbound]

Alright. So I'm thinking lots of green ramp and draw, and then the combo finishers with the objective of tossing down a Victory on about turns 5-8. Give me a couple days to get the thing together and I'll post it here.

[Khay]

Well, there is Man-o-War beatdown, I guess? :smalltongue:
My reasoning for not including any win conditions on their own is: sure, I could play an Archangel or the dragon or some other large creature from the block. But chances are that my opponents creature are much better than anything I could find within the block. Remember, I won't play this deck against other Mirage block decks. I will play against decks that include Archangel of Thune, Prime Speaker Zegrana or Lord of the Void. Thus, I would rather steal my opponents better creatures than to settle for something mediocre.
But you're right. Against decks without splashy creatures (or artifacts, I guess, since those can be stolen by Desertion, too) this deck my struggle. In the end it is a matter of the decks I will play against with this. The Dragon is a good suggestion, though, should the need arise to play an actual win-con :smallsmile:

Oh yeah, that definitely makes sense. Creatures have come a long way since Mirage - though I still like the dragon, simply because it's so painfully hard to remove. (Though it was better when damage still used the stack.) It's something I'd consider running as a one-of, just in case your opponent plays a weird deck that doesn't run big and flashy creatures or artifacts. Depends on the matchups, though!


Yeah, I've contemplated between Memory Lapse and Power Sink. I ultimately settled for Power Sink as it actually deals with the countered spell. I feel Power Sink fits this type of deck better then Memory Lapse which I feel would be more at home at a tempo deck (and this deck is so very much not a tempo deck). But I could see arguments for Memory Lapse too. Maybe a split between the two?
Under which circumstances would Memory Lapse be better then Power Sink?

I was thinking of a different spell, oops. :smallredface: I forgot that Power Sink is the one with the take-all-your-mana-anyway clause; that makes it significantly better. What I like about Memory Lapse is that, even though it very much is a tempo play, it can be an absolutely backbreaking loss of tempo because it takes away their next draw step, too. It's hard to play around, too. Though if your opponents start playing around Power Sink if you don't have it, that's also quite a tempo hit... hm. I'm not actually sure which is better. That might call for some experimentation.


Hm, the leaves-play-effect of floodgate IS nice. One could play Abjure (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4477) as an enabler. With that and Boomerang it could be consistent enough. If a sideboard would actually make sense for casual play I would definitely put 4 Floodgate and 4 Abjure in the 'bord. But it is a card that I will keep in mind. I could see them in other decks as a main piece :smallsmile:

The weakness against fast decks is probably not that problematic as those kind of decks are rarely played in my "meta" (fast aggro decks tend to suck in multiplayer).

What I like about Floodgate in multiplayer is that it says, in no uncertain terms, "you don't want to attack me". I agree that it's probably superfluous if nobody in your 'meta' is even trying to go for the fast aggro route; your deck is already pretty good against large aggro after all. I've actually had people go the fast-to-midgrange aggro route in multiplayer; they tend to lose, but they do get to knock a player out of the game, and that's all some people want, apparently.


I've considered it, but it is a total blowout if the Vale gets destroyed. And while dedicated land-destruction decks are not a thing in my meta, individual land destruction is: Acidic Slime, Ghost Quarter, Beast Within, Capsize...
It's way to risky.

Oh geez, no kidding. Yeah, in that case, you really don't want to run Lotus Vale. Such a shame the Oracle wording makes it so hard to abuse... :smalltongue:

Also, unrelated to the deck, but related to Mirage: Am I the only one who keeps thinking that Rite of the Serpent (http://magiccards.info/ktk/en/86.html)'s art would be sort of at home there? I keep being surprised by that art.

[Boci]

How do you search for good advanced lands when building a deck? Gatherer.com is pretty good for narrowing down the parameters for any creature, artifact, instant, sorcery, ect, but not for lands, because they are all colorless, they all have the same CMC, and have very few variables that feature in the search parameter, except for artist which does not help me. There are 506 lands, and 238 of them are rare. Adding the "tapped" key word to the rules text narrows this down to 87. Anything else I can do, or will I just have to browse them all?

[Khay]

How do you search for good advanced lands when building a deck? Gatherer.com is pretty good for narrowing down the parameters for any creature, artifact, instant, sorcery, ect, but not for lands, because they are all colorless, they all have the same CMC, and have very few variables that feature in the search parameter, except for artist which does not help me. There are 506 lands, and 238 of them are rare. Adding the "tapped" key word to the rules text narrows this down to 87. Anything else I can do, or will I just have to browse them all?

I'm a really big fan of Magiccards.info, because its advanced search lets you use quite a lot of parameters (http://magiccards.info/syntax.html) and logical oeprators; you can create basically arbitrarily complex searches. Here's a search for Modern-legal lands that can produce Green mana and do not enter the battlefield tapped (http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3Aland+%28o%3A%22add+{G}%22+or+o%3A%22or +{G}%22+or+o%3A%22any+color%22%29+%28not+o%3Atappe d+or+o%3A%22tapped+unless%22+or+o%3A%22If+you+don% 27t%2C+%22%29+f%3Amodern&s=cname&v=card&), as an example.

[Boci]

I'm a really big fan of Magiccards.info, because its advanced search lets you use quite a lot of parameters (http://magiccards.info/syntax.html) and logical oeprators; you can create basically arbitrarily complex searches. Here's a search for Modern-legal lands that can produce Green mana and do not enter the battlefield tapped (http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3Aland+%28o%3A%22add+{G}%22+or+o%3A%22or +{G}%22+or+o%3A%22any+color%22%29+%28not+o%3Atappe d+or+o%3A%22tapped+unless%22+or+o%3A%22If+you+don% 27t%2C+%22%29+f%3Amodern&s=cname&v=card&), as an example.

Thanks a lot, this is a great help.

[Zombimode]

The Gatherer also has a powerful search function (you can use regular expressions, iirc). For lands, you can use the "Rules Text" field. If you want a list of all lands that produce, say, black and white mana, you can search for "{W}" AND "{B}". This will result in a list of all lands that include both a black mana symbol and a white mana symbol somewhere in its text box.

[sonofzeal]

New-ish player here, looking for deck-building advice. I know now the game works, but I only really understand how to build creature-heavy decks. I think I'm fair at judging card value, and finding synergy, and I've got some decks that seem to do pretty well - mostly green and white. I like red and blue cards individually, and I especially enjoy the feeling of using those cards creatively, but I can't figure out how to actually build those decks. They can be annoying as heck, but there's a difference between being annoying and, y'know, winning.

[ChaosOS]

New-ish player here, looking for deck-building advice. I know now the game works, but I only really understand how to build creature-heavy decks. I think I'm fair at judging card value, and finding synergy, and I've got some decks that seem to do pretty well - mostly green and white. I like red and blue cards individually, and I especially enjoy the feeling of using those cards creatively, but I can't figure out how to actually build those decks. They can be annoying as heck, but there's a difference between being annoying and, y'know, winning.

Deck building is a huge learning curve, but here's some basic questions

1. What format are you shooting for? I'm guessing kitchen table, but at the tournament level there's a variety of formats like Standard and Modern that have different restrictions on which sets cards can be from to be legal

2. What kinds of resources do you have to build decks? Just your private collection, or do you look up specific cards and buy those individually?

Given those, here's some general guidelines

1. Mana matters. Your land count should be between 22 and 26, rarely deviating higher or lower, based on how aggressive you're trying to be.

2. What's your strategy? Are you trying to be aggressive, winning within a couple turns with offensive creatures between 1 and 3 mana? Are you trying to focus on larger, more efficient creatures costing 3-6 mana? Or are you trying to just stall out the game with spells, until you finally drop one really nasty thing that's 5-8 mana that you'll just ride to victory?

[sonofzeal]

Deck building is a huge learning curve, but here's some basic questions

1. What format are you shooting for? I'm guessing kitchen table, but at the tournament level there's a variety of formats like Standard and Modern that have different restrictions on which sets cards can be from to be legal

2. What kinds of resources do you have to build decks? Just your private collection, or do you look up specific cards and buy those individually?

Given those, here's some general guidelines

1. Mana matters. Your land count should be between 22 and 26, rarely deviating higher or lower, based on how aggressive you're trying to be.

2. What's your strategy? Are you trying to be aggressive, winning within a couple turns with offensive creatures between 1 and 3 mana? Are you trying to focus on larger, more efficient creatures costing 3-6 mana? Or are you trying to just stall out the game with spells, until you finally drop one really nasty thing that's 5-8 mana that you'll just ride to victory?

1/2) I've got a big box of old cards from a friend, a small box of new-ish cards of my own (mostly 2013-2014), and MtG:DotP 2014 and 2015. The 2014 one was fun because it gave pre-gen decks that I just needed to tweak them, but the 2015 one is far more freeform, much more like the actual game, and thus requires more in the way of deckbuilding skill. "Kitchen table" definitely applies, though.

#2) My strategy generally is to stabilize early board control (get enough out there to discourage/prevent early aggression, or punish a vulnerable early game), stall out the mid game, and scale hard as things go. "Doubling Season" + "Jade Mage" + "Seraph of the Masses", say. Or multiple "Advocate of the Beast". "Armored Ascension" is an old favourite. Recently I've had some success with "Bloodflow Connoisseur" too. That sort of thing.

[CantigThimble]

So I was bored and isolated for an hour or so, so I made cards of the OoTS team. I'm sure this has been done before but I'm quite happy with how they came out:

Roy Greenhilt 3WWW
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier Ally
Whenever Roy Greenhilt or another Ally enters the battlefield under your control, you may put a +1/+1 counter on each ally you control.
You may use white mana as though it were mana of any color to cast ally spells you own.
If Roy Greenhilt is your commander you may include ally spells in your deck that are not in his color identity.
3/4

Roy's main role seems to be making battle plans and keeping the rest of the order working together, this seems to fit, though with the commander clause I think he might have too much text to fit on a card!

Durkon Thundershield 3WW
Legendary Creature - Dwarf Cleric Ally
Whenever Durkon Thundershield or another ally creature enters the battlefield under your control put a +1/+1 counter on Durkon Thundershield.
Prevent the first 2 damage that would be dealt to each ally you control each turn.
1/4

I considered making Vampire Durkon but we really don't know anything about him so I just made regular Durkon. He used a wide variety of spells like Thor's Lightning or Might but those strike me more as instants or sorceries than creature effects. The one thing he always does is heal.

Belkar Bitterleaf 3RR
Legendary Creature - Kithkin Berserker Ally
Double Strike
Whenever Belkar Bitterleaf or another ally creature enters the battlefield under your control put a +1/+1 counter on Belkar Bitterleaf.
3/3

Belkar may have had some character changes and such but he's really still a Sexy Shoeless God of War, nothing says that like a constantly growing 3/3 double strike.

Haley Starshine 3RU
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue Ally
First Strike, Reach
UR[T]: Gain control of target ability or target non-creature spell with converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of allies you control. You may choose new targets for it.
3/2

Haley's diplomancy and thievery are well represented by this ability I think. She was one of the hardest to design because of how widespread her abilities are under the color pie.

Elan, Dashing Swordsman 2WU
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue Ally
Flash, First Strike
You may cast ally spells as though they had flash.
Whenever Elan, Dashing Swordsman or another ally enters the battlefield put a +1/+1 counter on target ally you control and it gains your choice of Hexproof, Lifelink or +0/+3 until end of turn.
2/2

Elan is very good at timing and dramatic rescues. I really like how this one turned out.

Vaarsuvius 3UR
Legendary Creature - Elf Wizard Ally
Flying
[T]: Deal 1 damage to target creature or player, copy this ability for each other ally you control. You may choose new targets for the copies.
2/2

MAGIC MISSILE! Like Durkon, he has so many varied and complex abilities that I decided to go with the most most common for him and save the rest for tribal ally instants and sorceries.

Mr. Scruffy 1W
Legendary Creature - Cat Ally
[T]: Counter target spell or ability that targets an ally you control unless it's controller pays 2.
1/2

Mr. Scruffy, get the caster! I gave him two toughness so he eats a commoner in combat.

Blackwing 1U
Legendary Creature - Bird Ally
Flying
Whenever Blackwing or another ally enters the battlefield under your control, target opponent reveals a random card from their hand and you gain 1 life.
1/1

Blackwing has shown his value several times by helping to deduce enemy plans and provide moral support. There you go.


On a seperate note I have a complete set of conspiracy that we've been redrafting for quite a while. It is getting a little stale though as we've done it so much. It's still a fantastic format and I loved drafting Gamekeeper-Born, Infectious Horde, Deathforge Geyser and all the other silly decks that are possible but I kinda want to try something new. I've been looking up Cube and there's a lot of quite varied information about making one. It seems like the simplest and cheapest way to do it would be to go through my collection, put a relatively balanced set of the best cards together and adjust it afterwards instead of making a list. Also, planeswalkers seem entertaining but the only ones I have are Tamiyo, Ashiok, Venser, Jace, the living Guildpact, Garruk Relentless, Tibalt. Meaning BLUE, green and red. If I can't balance them in the colors should I just not include any?

[Ninjaman]

I made a Commander deck. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/24-10-14-OKm-karador/)
Suggestions are welcome.

@ CantigThimble
I think they are too expensive, what would xykon be? CMC 8? 9?


I made my own order and choose to go full cheap and make them 2 drops, (these are based on the start of the story, they would be 3 drops later on.), but that is probably too cheap.


Roy Greenhilt - 1W
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier - R
Vigilance
T: Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
2/2

Durkon Thundershield - 1W
Legendary Creature - Dwarf Cleric - R
3W: Durkon Thundershield gets +3/+3 until end of turn. Activate this ability only once each turn.
W, T: Choose one — Target player gains 3 life; or prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to target creature or player this turn.
2/3

Belkar Bitterleaf - 1R
Legendary Creature - Hafling Warrior - R
Double strike
Unless you control a soldier, Belkar Bitterleaf attacks each turn if able.
2/2

Haley Starshine - 1R
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue - R
T: Haley Starshine deals 1 damage to target creature or player
2, T: Gain control of target noncreature artifact with a converted mana cost 3 or less.
2/2

Elan the Bard - R/W
Legendary Creature - Human - R
W, T: Another target creature you control gets +0/+1 and vigilance, until end of turn.
R, T: Another target creature you control gets +1/+0 and haste, until end of turn.
1/1

Elan, Dashing Swordsman - 1 R/W
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue - R
First strike, vigilance
W, T: For each creature you control, prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to it this turn.
2/2

Vaarsuvius - 1U/R
Legendary Creature - Elf Wizard - R
1R, T: Vaarsuvius deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
1U, T: Tap target creature, that creature doesn’t untap during it’s controllers next untap step.
1/1

Made some other cards as well:

Xykon - 2BBB
Legendary Creature - Skeleton Wizard - M
Flying
B, T: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
B, T: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
4/4

Nale - 1R/B
Legendary creature - Human Rogue - R
B, T: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
XR, T: Gain control of target creature with toughness X or less until end of turn. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
2/2

Sneak Attack, Bitch! - R
Sorcery - U
Sneak attack, Bitch! deals 3 damage to target creature.
Prowl 0 (You may cast this for its prowl cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rogue.)

[Duck999]

I still have an unopened conspiracy box after last time I invited 7 people, and one brought their own box. I will probably use it soon, but I need some advice on redrafting: How exactly do you do it? How do you remake the packs?

[ChaosOS]

So I was bored and isolated for an hour or so, so I made cards of the OoTS team. I'm sure this has been done before but I'm quite happy with how they came out:

Roy Greenhilt 3WWW
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier Ally
Whenever Roy Greenhilt or another Ally enters the battlefield under your control, you may put a +1/+1 counter on each ally you control.
You may use white mana as though it were mana of any color to cast ally spells you own.
If Roy Greenhilt is your commander you may include ally spells in your deck that are not in his color identity.
3/4

Roy's main role seems to be making battle plans and keeping the rest of the order working together, this seems to fit, though with the commander clause I think he might have too much text to fit on a card!

Durkon Thundershield 3WW
Legendary Creature - Dwarf Cleric Ally
Whenever Durkon Thundershield or another ally creature enters the battlefield under your control put a +1/+1 counter on Durkon Thundershield.
Prevent the first 2 damage that would be dealt to each ally you control each turn.
1/4

I considered making Vampire Durkon but we really don't know anything about him so I just made regular Durkon. He used a wide variety of spells like Thor's Lightning or Might but those strike me more as instants or sorceries than creature effects. The one thing he always does is heal.

Belkar Bitterleaf 3RR
Legendary Creature - Kithkin Berserker Ally
Double Strike
Whenever Belkar Bitterleaf or another ally creature enters the battlefield under your control put a +1/+1 counter on Belkar Bitterleaf.
3/3

Belkar may have had some character changes and such but he's really still a Sexy Shoeless God of War, nothing says that like a constantly growing 3/3 double strike.

Haley Starshine 3RU
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue Ally
First Strike, Reach
UR[T]: Gain control of target ability or target non-creature spell with converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of allies you control. You may choose new targets for it.
3/2

Haley's diplomancy and thievery are well represented by this ability I think. She was one of the hardest to design because of how widespread her abilities are under the color pie.

Elan, Dashing Swordsman 2WU
Legendary Creature - Human Rogue Ally
Flash, First Strike
You may cast ally spells as though they had flash.
Whenever Elan, Dashing Swordsman or another ally enters the battlefield put a +1/+1 counter on target ally you control and it gains your choice of Hexproof, Lifelink or +0/+3 until end of turn.
2/2

Elan is very good at timing and dramatic rescues. I really like how this one turned out.

Vaarsuvius 3UR
Legendary Creature - Elf Wizard Ally
Flying
[T]: Deal 1 damage to target creature or player, copy this ability for each other ally you control. You may choose new targets for the copies.
2/2

MAGIC MISSILE! Like Durkon, he has so many varied and complex abilities that I decided to go with the most most common for him and save the rest for tribal ally instants and sorceries.

Mr. Scruffy 1W
Legendary Creature - Cat Ally
[T]: Counter target spell or ability that targets an ally you control unless it's controller pays 2.
1/2

Mr. Scruffy, get the caster! I gave him two toughness so he eats a commoner in combat.

Blackwing 1U
Legendary Creature - Bird Ally
Flying
Whenever Blackwing or another ally enters the battlefield under your control, target opponent reveals a random card from their hand and you gain 1 life.
1/1

Blackwing has shown his value several times by helping to deduce enemy plans and provide moral support. There you go.


On a seperate note I have a complete set of conspiracy that we've been redrafting for quite a while. It is getting a little stale though as we've done it so much. It's still a fantastic format and I loved drafting Gamekeeper-Born, Infectious Horde, Deathforge Geyser and all the other silly decks that are possible but I kinda want to try something new. I've been looking up Cube and there's a lot of quite varied information about making one. It seems like the simplest and cheapest way to do it would be to go through my collection, put a relatively balanced set of the best cards together and adjust it afterwards instead of making a list. Also, planeswalkers seem entertaining but the only ones I have are Tamiyo, Ashiok, Venser, Jace, the living Guildpact, Garruk Relentless, Tibalt. Meaning BLUE, green and red. If I can't balance them in the colors should I just not include any?

Roy seems fine

Durkon's ability should either be absorb 1 or +0/+2, your current wording is very unusual.

Belkar is a 5 mana 4/4 double strike that can grow. Definitely overtuned. Drop base stats to 2/2 since after he enters he gets +2/+2

Reach is out of color pie for Haley, but I like what you're doing otherwise

Elan's ally ability is too complex, it really doesn't need to be doing everything. I'd change to "allies you control get hexproof until end of turn"

V is on point

Scruffy is crazy broken. Judge's familiar is a 1 mana tax and needs to be sacked for what it does. Drop the counter to a 1 mana tax, that is also more in line with him being mono white.

Blackwing is good.

[Khay]

Here's that Sphinx-Tron thing I was talking about. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-10-14-espertron/) I... kinda like it, I guess? I definitely feel more comfortable with the ability to play two Oblivion Rings maindeck; they're like a safety blanket. There, there, that mean old Blood Moon/Aven Mindcensor/Tarmogoyf can't hurt you now. There's no Black maindeck 'cause I couldn't find anything I really wanted to run, but maybe there'll be something for the sideboard? Black has spot removal that's almost on par with that of White, which is awkward. The Sphinx really doesn't feel like a Wurmcoil replacement because it's kind of a lot of work to get to a point where I can actually cast it, though.


I still have an unopened conspiracy box after last time I invited 7 people, and one brought their own box. I will probably use it soon, but I need some advice on redrafting: How exactly do you do it? How do you remake the packs?

Labour-intensive but functional: Sort it into piles of Common/Uncommon/Rare+Mythic, shuffle those, then reconstruct boosters by taking cards out of these piles face-down. (So the person to 'open' a booster draws 11 cards from the Commons pile, 3 cards from the Uncommons and 1 from the Rare/Mythic pile.)

[IthilanorStPete]

Here's that Sphinx-Tron thing I was talking about. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-10-14-espertron/) I... kinda like it, I guess? I definitely feel more comfortable with the ability to play two Oblivion Rings maindeck; they're like a safety blanket. There, there, the bad Blood Moon can't hurt you now. There's no Black maindeck 'cause I couldn't find anything I really wanted to run. The Sphinx really doesn't feel like a Wurmcoil replacement because it's kind of a lot of work to get to a point where I can actually cast it, though.

This is an oddball replacement, but what about [url=http://magiccards.info/som/en/193.html]Platinum Emporion[url]?

[Khay]

This is an oddball replacement, but what about [url=http://magiccards.info/som/en/193.html]Platinum Emporion[url]?

Iiiii don't really like Platinum Emperion. Mostly it just seems like a worse Platinum Angel to me. I guess it prevents your life total from going negative, so you don't insta-die once it's removed... but it also doesn't stop alternative victory conditions at all. (Plot-relevant: It's got nothing against Infect.) I haven't given it much thought, admittedly, as I'm kind of prejuidiced against the card. Maybe it's worth a try, thanks!

[IcemanJRC]

On a seperate note I have a complete set of conspiracy that we've been redrafting for quite a while. It is getting a little stale though as we've done it so much. It's still a fantastic format and I loved drafting Gamekeeper-Born, Infectious Horde, Deathforge Geyser and all the other silly decks that are possible but I kinda want to try something new. I've been looking up Cube and there's a lot of quite varied information about making one. It seems like the simplest and cheapest way to do it would be to go through my collection, put a relatively balanced set of the best cards together and adjust it afterwards instead of making a list. Also, planeswalkers seem entertaining but the only ones I have are Tamiyo, Ashiok, Venser, Jace, the living Guildpact, Garruk Relentless, Tibalt. Meaning BLUE, green and red. If I can't balance them in the colors should I just not include any?

Depends. Creating a draft environment is really hard and including or not including planeswalkers is a matter of balance that you'd have to figure out within the context of the rest of the cube. If you're looking for budget friendly I play Pauper Cube, all commons, the entire 360 cards cost me like 200 dollars if you include the price of sleeves for it and you probably already have the bulk of a good list. If you'd rather just make a regular cu e and flesh it out over time then throwing together whatever you've got and takeing it for a spin is just fine. Things you need to make sure you do is balance all the colors against eachother both in number and in powerlevel and to make sure every color has an appropriate mana curve. You also want to figure out early how many cards you want because that drastically changes how good certain cards or groups of cards are. 360 is enough for 8 players, but you'll always see every card. 360 and 420 are popular sizes. You also want to make sure you facilitate archetypes to be drafted, rather than just having some cards in a pile. It doesn't have to be all that complicated, but even just making sure blue gets card draw to go with their counter spells and red has enough burn and small creatures is technically facilitating archetypes. You just need to be sure that when you're adding cards they always work towards making decks playable. If you want I can be more specific or if you have any questions feel free to shoot them my way, I cube a lot.

[sonofzeal]

So.... no advice on building "control" decks? Cards like "Negate" and "Nullify" look quite strong, but I can't figure out how to transition from there into actually winning.

[ChaosOS]

Control is a finicky beast that is very dependent on your opponents as to what is effective. Basically, you want to have single target, mana efficient answers in the form of counterspells or removal. Then, you want to generate some card advantage via mass removal and card draw. Finally, you want to drop either a planeswalker or a very resilient creature that you can just ride to victory once your opponent has exhausted all of their resources.

[Sith_Happens]

I like red and blue cards individually, and I especially enjoy the feeling of using those cards creatively, but I can't figure out how to actually build those decks. They can be annoying as heck, but there's a difference between being annoying and, y'know, winning.

The trick is that the more annoying you are, the less of your deck needs to be dedicated to winning. A control player's game plan will often look like this:

1. Systematically stall and screw with opponent until drawing one of 3-5 cards in their deck that can actually cause a win condition if left unchecked.

2. Systematically screw with opponent so as to keep that card on the battlefield and doing its thing until victory is reached.

[sonofzeal]

The trick is that the more annoying you are, the less of your deck needs to be dedicated to winning. A control player's game plan will often look like this:

1. Systematically stall and screw with opponent until drawing one of 3-5 cards in their deck that can actually cause a win condition if left unchecked.

2. Systematically screw with opponent so as to keep that card on the battlefield and doing its thing until victory is reached.

Assuming I don't have any Planeswalkers... what makes a good "win condition" card for a Blue-heavy deck? Would triton shorestalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380522&type=card) + Bident of Thassa (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=373544&type=card) count? Or Kraken of the Straits (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378414&type=card)?

Your patience and help is appreciated. :)

[Ninjaman]

So.... no advice on building "control" decks? Cards like "Negate" and "Nullify" look quite strong, but I can't figure out how to transition from there into actually winning.

Any specific format or just casual?

[IthilanorStPete]

Assuming I don't have any Planeswalkers... what makes a good "win condition" card for a Blue-heavy deck? Would triton shorestalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380522&type=card) + Bident of Thassa (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=373544&type=card) count? Or Kraken of the Straits (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378414&type=card)?

Your patience and help is appreciated. :)

Something more along the lines of the Kraken is what you want; your wincon should have some resilience to removal on its own. Having a strong impact on the board is also handy. Good finishers from recent sets to look at:
-Pearl Lake Ancient (http://magiccards.info/ktk/en/49.html)
-Aetherling (http://magiccards.info/dgm/en/11.html)
-Stormtide Leviathan (http://magiccards.info/m15/en/80.html)
-Prognostic Sphinx (http://magiccards.info/ths/en/60.html)

EDIT:


Triton Shorestalker and Kraken of the Straits are not your best choices. A lot of RWU control decks use burn. I say that your best way is either burn or kill their creatures while attacking with yours. I don't do much control though.

Burn is an option in URW, but not for pure control decks. Those decks are generally aggro-control/tempo decks, which have a good bit more complexity than classic control.

[Duck999]

Assuming I don't have any Planeswalkers... what makes a good "win condition" card for a Blue-heavy deck? Would triton shorestalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380522&type=card) + Bident of Thassa (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=373544&type=card) count? Or Kraken of the Straits (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378414&type=card)?

Your patience and help is appreciated. :)

Triton Shorestalker and Kraken of the Straits are not your best choices. A lot of RWU control decks use burn. I say that your best way is either burn or kill their creatures while attacking with yours. I don't do much control though.

[Lhurgyof]

I have encountered an issue recently.

Our EDH group half split up, and so I can only play magic with half of my friends, leaving me with only a few of my friends to play magic with.

The real problem is that a lot of my decks are way too powerful for them to deal with. I'll describe my current playgroup for you:

Two of them are new to magic, let's call them A and B. A has dropped big money on his decks (He has a $300 Avacyn deck, a $200 Progenitus deck, and a $600 Oloro deck). A, although new, researches what cards work in similar decks and understands the game pretty well. He doesn't make many misplays, but just doesn't have as much experience as a couple of the other players do.

B is a different story. B has a Gahiji deck that is probably worth $40. He understands that Gahiji + Tokens are good, but a lot of the time when he plays cards, all I can think is why?. B seems to kind of do his own thing is most games and comes ahead of mass LD from Avacyn a lot of the time. He plays cards that he thinks work well (i.e. running Ajani's Pridemate with only three lifegain cards in the deck, one being Ajani's Mantra). I've tried to help B, but with a budget of literally $0, it's pretty hard to do much. I try to help him when he makes misplays and remind him that you don't only play on your own turn (he likes to cast instants and activate abilities on his own turn), but he's just a new player and is prone to these things.

C has been playing magic a long time from what I can tell. C has a few decks, but they all have the same problem. He runs Hanna, Shattergang Brothers, Geth, and Sliver Overlord (haven't seen him play this yet, he just made it). C, although having played the game an apparent long time (his parents both play and have played a long time), has lots of problems with deck construction. I feel like he focuses on more than one theme and uses sub-par cards where there's more to be desired. For example, his shattergang deck is goblin tribal. But he still has stuff to work with the gang (rancor, squee, etc.), and I feel like the lack of a clear purpose really hurts his deck. Not only that, but he always complains that he doesn't get what he needs and runs cards that are pretty narrow. I've tried to help him with deck changes in the past, and have told him that there are better generals for goblin tribal out there (Wort and Krenko specifically because the green doesn't add much to goblins), and that if he wants to be using cards to go with the gang that he shouldn't try so hard with the tribal theme. Every game he plays it seems he has very little impact on. Just kind of plays a few creatures regardless of the deck, gets boardwiped, then dies. I know for a fact that C has a job and nothing else to spend his income on, so he pretty much just buys magic. I try to give him lots of advice, but I don't know if it's gotten through to him. He also takes a frustratingly long time on his turns to do the simplest things, so I doubt he really plans in advanced what to do.

D is the last one, and the only other member from our old group. He makes fun decks but operates under a budget. He doesn't quite have the rules mastery that I do nor has he played as long, but he makes many less misplays and plans his turns in advanced. He has a Cromat deck themed on legendary creatures, a Zurgo Helmsmasher sweeper voltron deck, a Isamaru deck where each card is CMC 1, and a Roon group-hug deck. Since we've played together a long time, he's pretty good at deck construction and plays the game well.

A and D are really the only players that can stand up to my decks, but before leaving our old pretty cutthroat EDH group (where I still had the best decks on average), I had invested a LOT of money into magic. I have several decks that are up over a grand in price and it's pretty unfair to the other players. Even with budget decks between one and two hundred dollars, I'm able to put together a cohesive deck that can take on all three of theirs at once.

I'm not winning all the time, and in fact A and D are pretty good at keeping me at bay, but I still win games a lot and I feel like there are a lot of games where I'm in positions where there's no way for me to possible lose, having planned out what to do several turns in advanced knowing that I can deal with what the other players could possibly hand at me. And if I dare play my Karador or Nicol Bolas decks then I'll most likely just blow everyone out. The obvious answer is to find new players, but that's pretty much impossible in my area, and the alternative to building at their level really sucks because many of my decks I put a lot of effort and money into, and I'd hate to just keep my $2,500 Karador deck in a box and never play it.

Does anybody have any advice that could help me? When I build new decks, I try to build around a theme that's not always optimal and make sure to keep the price tag down, but I just hate not being able to play any of my pet decks without it being a total ****stomp. :smallfrown:

[Khay]

Something more along the lines of the Kraken is what you want; your wincon should have some resilience to removal on its own. Having a strong impact on the board is also handy. Good finishers from recent sets to look at:
-Pearl Lake Ancient (http://magiccards.info/ktk/en/49.html)
-Aetherling (http://magiccards.info/dgm/en/11.html)
-Stormtide Leviathan (http://magiccards.info/m15/en/80.html)
-Prognostic Sphinx (http://magiccards.info/ths/en/60.html)

EDIT:



Burn is an option in URW, but not for pure control decks. Those decks are generally aggro-control/tempo decks, which have a good bit more complexity than classic control.

Of all these, Aetherling is probably your best bet. It kills your opponent quite quickly, it is very hard to interact with (as it can't be blocked and you can phase it out at will) and, perhaps most importantly, it costs like half a dollar apiece.

Also, reading "deck primers" for control decks can be quite rewarding. I also personally quite like Zak Dolan's (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/226zakdiary) report of the 1994 World Championship, where he rode a pure control deck to victory - it's ever-so-slightly out of date (few people these days still play around Chaos Orb) but it's quite a fascinating look at how you can ride cards that are "just annoying" to victory.

[Svata]

So, my local comics/card shop where I play most of my Magic is doing a Tribal deck only night on Halloween and I'm unsure if I should run my Myr deck or my Zombies deck. Mind giving me some advice on which to play?


19x Island
4x Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
4x Copper Myr
4x Gold Myr
4x Iron Myr
4x Myr Galvanizer
4x Silver Myr
3x Myr Battlesphere
3x Myr Incubator
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Tricks of the Trade
Conjurer's Bauble
Fireshrieker
Flight of Fancy
Myr Mindservant
Myr Retriever
Shield of Avatar
Vow of Flight

(The reason for the two three-ofs is because they didn't have any more than that at the shop.)


17x Swamp
4x Jungle Hollow
4x Maggot Carrier
4x Rotting Mastodon
4x Scourge Servant
4x Undead Warchief
4x Vile Rebirth
3x Call to the Grave
3x Sewer Shambler
2x Gravedigger
2x Kheru Dreadmaw
2x Zombie Apocalypse
2x Zombie Giant
Despise
Distress
Necromancer's Assistant
Spiteful Returned
Ring of Xathrid
(The three-ofs and Zombie Apocalypse only being a 2-of is because they only had that many at the shop.)

[Ionbound]

Looking at the zombie deck, wouldn't a Liliana's Reaver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370740) work really well? I'm just wondering, not really giving advice if there's a reason.

[ChaosOS]

Of all these, Aetherling is probably your best bet. It kills your opponent quite quickly, it is very hard to interact with (as it can't be blocked and you can phase it out at will) and, perhaps most importantly, it costs like half a dollar apiece.

Also, reading "deck primers" for control decks can be quite rewarding. I also personally quite like Zak Dolan's (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/226zakdiary) report of the 1994 World Championship, where he rode a pure control deck to victory - it's ever-so-slightly out of date (few people these days still play around Chaos Orb) but it's quite a fascinating look at how you can ride cards that are "just annoying" to victory.

The report was a fascinating look back at Magic's history, but I'll note that due to the changing power of creatures and spells it's not an accurate assessment of what tools you really need to play in the current game, creatures have become much more powerful and relevant in 20 years.

[sonofzeal]

A couple questions about order of events here. I've been playing DotP 2015, as I mentioned earlier, and I want to make sure I'm not learning things the wrong way. Here's two scenarios.


- A Trained Caracal (1/1 lifelink) and an Ajani's Pridemate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205065&type=card) (currently 6/6) attack. The opponent only has a 1/2 to block with, so he blocks the Trained Caracal. Does he take 6 damage or 7? What if the Trained Caracal had First Strike?

- A player casts Nimbus Wings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=180346&type=card) on Hero of Iroas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378389&type=card). The opposing player interrupts with Nullify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378389&type=card). Does Hero of Iroas get the +1/+1 counter or not? Is there a similar scenario where the answer is different?

[ChaosOS]

A couple questions about order of events here. I've been playing DotP 2015, as I mentioned earlier, and I want to make sure I'm not learning things the wrong way. Here's two scenarios.


- A Trained Caracal (1/1 lifelink) and an Ajani's Pridemate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205065&type=card) (currently 6/6) attack. The opponent only has a 1/2 to block with, so he blocks the Trained Caracal. Does he take 6 damage or 7? What if the Trained Caracal had First Strike?

- A player casts Nimbus Wings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=180346&type=card) on Hero of Iroas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378389&type=card). The opposing player interrupts with Nullify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378389&type=card). Does Hero of Iroas get the +1/+1 counter or not? Is there a similar scenario where the answer is different?

First scenario, 6 damage. Combat damage happens, as part of that lifelink happens and so you gain 1 life. Then triggers get put on the stack (Such as pridemate getting a +1/+1 counter), then once those have resolved (you can cast instants here) you move to the next step, which is technically end of combat, but very rarely do people bother with doing things separately on that step so it moves to the second main phase. If the carcel had first strike, there's two combat damage phases, so the trigger would be put on the stack after the first (strike) combat damage phase, then regular damage happens after that so pridemate does 7 damage.

Hero of Iroas gets a +1/+1 counter because the heroic trigger is on casting the spell, not on resolution. In fact, if there wasn't the counterspell, hero would get the counter, THEN the aura would be attached. This is occasionally relevant in situations I can't remember right now.

[IthilanorStPete]

A couple questions about order of events here. I've been playing DotP 2015, as I mentioned earlier, and I want to make sure I'm not learning things the wrong way. Here's two scenarios.


- A Trained Caracal (1/1 lifelink) and an Ajani's Pridemate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205065&type=card) (currently 6/6) attack. The opponent only has a 1/2 to block with, so he blocks the Trained Caracal. Does he take 6 damage or 7? What if the Trained Caracal had First Strike?

He would take 6 damage. As all damage resolved, you (the controller of the Caracal/Pridemate) would gain 1 life; this would then trigger the Pridemate's ability. The Pridemate's ability would then resolve and grant it an additional counter, but it would be after damage had been dealt. If the Caracal had first strike, the Pridemate would trigger and gain an additional counter before regular damage resolved, and would thus deal 7 damage.


- A player casts Nimbus Wings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=180346&type=card) on Hero of Iroas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378389&type=card). The opposing player interrupts with Nullify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378389&type=card). Does Hero of Iroas get the +1/+1 counter or not? Is there a similar scenario where the answer is different?

The Hero would gain the counter. Heroic triggers when a spell targeting a creature with heroic is cast, not when the spell resolves; even if the spell is countered, the heroic ability has still gone on the stack and resolved. A different situation would be with something with constellation, such as Eidolon of Blossoms (http://magiccards.info/jou/en/122.html). Constellation triggers when an enchantment enters the battlefield; if you play an enchantment and it's countered, it goes directly to the graveyard, doesn't enter the battlefield, and thus doesn't trigger constellation.

[sonofzeal]

First scenario, 6 damage. Combat damage happens, as part of that lifelink happens and so you gain 1 life. Then triggers get put on the stack (Such as pridemate getting a +1/+1 counter), then once those have resolved (you can cast instants here) you move to the next step, which is technically end of combat, but very rarely do people bother with doing things separately on that step so it moves to the second main phase. If the carcel had first strike, there's two combat damage phases, so the trigger would be put on the stack after the first (strike) combat damage phase, then regular damage happens after that so pridemate does 7 damage.

Hero of Iroas gets a +1/+1 counter because the heroic trigger is on casting the spell, not on resolution. In fact, if there wasn't the counterspell, hero would get the counter, THEN the aura would be attached. This is occasionally relevant in situations I can't remember right now.

Good, the game got it right on both. I wasn't sure, as it seemed a little counter-intuitive, but the way you explain it works.


What if, instead of Nullify on the Nimbus Wings, the opposing player had cast Shock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370654&type=card) on Hero of Iroas? Does the +1/+1 counter go on, then Shock resolves, then the Nimbus Wings goes on?

[ChaosOS]

Good, the game got it right on both. I wasn't sure, as it seemed a little counter-intuitive, but the way you explain it works.


What if, instead of Nullify on the Nimbus Wings, the opposing player had cast Shock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370654&type=card) on Hero of Iroas? Does the +1/+1 counter go on, then Shock resolves, then the Nimbus Wings goes on?

Stack goes First In Last Out. Upon casting Nimbus Wings, stack is

Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

By casting shock, you make it

Shock
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings


However, you could intentionally decide to let the heroic trigger resolve, then cast a spell before the aura does. That would be relevant with cards like Smite the Monstrous and some aura that granted say hexproof or indestructibility.

[sonofzeal]

Stack goes First In Last Out. Upon casting Nimbus Wings, stack is

Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

By casting shock, you make it

Shock
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings


However, you could intentionally decide to let the heroic trigger resolve, then cast a spell before the aura does. That would be relevant with cards like Smite the Monstrous and some aura that granted say hexproof or indestructibility.

Ah - so, in the previous instance, the stack is.....

Nullify
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

....with the effect of Nullify sending Nimus Wings to the graveyard but without removing Heroic Trigger from the stack?

You can see why I'm a little confused. :P

[ChaosOS]

Ah - so, in the previous instance, the stack is.....

Nullify
Heroic Trigger
Nimbus Wings

....with the effect of Nullify sending Nimus Wings to the graveyard but without removing Heroic Trigger from the stack?

You can see why I'm a little confused. :P

Yes, that is the stack

[Duck999]

Ahhh, the stack, the most annoying thing for new players. Anyone have a good way to explain it? The way I explain it is just imagine that all the cards are stacked upon each other in the order they are played, then they happen from the top to bottom. So, like the cards are stacked... in a stack... like the stack... yeah.

[ChaosOS]

Basically just literally stacking cards is the best way to remember first in last out.

[Duck999]

Basically just literally stacking cards is the best way to remember first in last out.

First in last out is also useful, but yeah, I always explained it as just stacking cards.

[sonofzeal]

Stacks are easy. It's just when there's things like Heroic Trigger activating before the thing that's causing it to activate that can be a bit counter-intuitive. In the above situation, it was me playing Nullify to counter an Aura comming down, and being caught off guard when the Heroic Trigger still went off even though the Aura had been countered.

Here's one more compound question.....


I have a Battering Krasis (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=368984&type=card) (2/1 evolving) on the field. I play a Paragon of the Eternal Wilds (http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/paragonofeternalwilds1.jpg). Does the Krasis become 3/2 or 4/3?

Let's say, next turn, the Krasis is at 4/3 and, with PotEW still out, I play a Primal Huntbeast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=249677&type=card). Does the Krasis evolve or not?

[Duck999]

It would evolve first, then get the +1/+1, making it a 4/3. When you play Primal Huntbeast, it would not evolve since it's power/toughness is 4/3, and the Huntbeast is only a 3/3.

[sonofzeal]

It would evolve first, then get the +1/+1, making it a 4/3. When you play Primal Huntbeast, it would not evolve since it's power/toughness is 4/3, and the Huntbeast is only a 3/3.

I'm pretty sure the game got that wrong, then. It got the +1/+1, then checked for evolving. I might be wrong though.

As for the latter, I guess the fact that Huntbeast comes in as a 4/4 due to PotEW doesn't count, only the card's listed value? What about Kicked cards like Jorga Warcaller (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=197765&type=card)? If I paid 9 mana for Jorga, would he trigger evolving or not? And is it the same for Hydras with mana costs of "XG"?

Again, I appreciate you guys putting up with my barrage of newbie questions. :)

[IthilanorStPete]

It would evolve first, then get the +1/+1, making it a 4/3. When you play Primal Huntbeast, it would not evolve since it's power/toughness is 4/3, and the Huntbeast is only a 3/3.

This is incorrect. As soon as Paragon enters, Battering Krasis immediately becomes a 3/2; Paragon's effect is a continuous effect which applies immediately, it's not a trigger. Krasis's evolve ability checks 3/2 against 2/2 and fails to trigger. Similarly, with the Huntbeast, the Huntbeast enters play as a 4/4, triggering evolve; there's no point where Huntbeast is on the field but not receiving the effect from Paragon.



I'm pretty sure the game got that wrong, then. It got the +1/+1, then checked for evolving. I might be wrong though.

As for the latter, I guess the fact that Huntbeast comes in as a 4/4 due to PotEW doesn't count, only the card's listed value? What about Kicked cards like Jorga Warcaller (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=197765&type=card)? If I paid 9 mana for Jorga, would he trigger evolving or not? And is it the same for Hydras with mana costs of "XG"?

Again, I appreciate you guys putting up with my barrage of newbie questions. :)

Warcaller and Hydras will generally trigger evolve; because the ability says "enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters", they have those immediately. A creature with a triggered ability that added counters (such as Oran-Rief Survivalist (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/174.html)), would use only its base stats to check for evolve.

[Duck999]

I suppose that makes some sense. It enters the battlefield at the same time it gives everything else +1/+1. The game can be confusing sometimes.:smalltongue:

[IthilanorStPete]

A good thing to know is how to identify activated abilities, triggered abilities, and static abilities:
-Activated abilities are written as "Cost: Effect". When they're activated, the cost is paid immediately, the ability goes on the stack; when the ability resolves, the effect happens.
-Triggered abilities (generally) begin with "At...", "When...", or "Whenever...". Whenever the trigger event occurs, the ability goes on the stack; when the ability resolves, the effect happens.
-Static abilities are written as statements that don't fit one of the above categories. Their effects are active continuously whenever the permanent with the ability is on the battlefield (or the card is in the appropriate zone for abilities that have effects in other zones).

[sonofzeal]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

[Boci]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

Yes. All "instant" means is that it can go on the stack at any time, before another action already on the stack resolves, but if the action isn't on the stack it cannot be beaten.

[IthilanorStPete]

Yes. All "instant" means is that it can go on the stack at any time, before another action already on the stack resolves, but if the action isn't on the stack it cannot be beaten.

What Boci said. "Static ability" actually is a game term, but it's part of the rules, not on the cards.

[Boci]

Also another thing that a new player may be unclear on (it caught me out) is that once blockers are declared, killing the blocking creature doesn't prevent the attacking creature from being counted as blocked.

[sonofzeal]

Also another thing that a new player may be unclear on (it caught me out) is that once blockers are declared, killing the blocking creature doesn't prevent the attacking creature from being counted as blocked.

...a fact which makes things like Bloodflow Connoisseur (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=240196&type=card) all the more fun to play with. Especially with Act of Treason (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=226589&type=card). I figured that one out for myself!

[ChaosOS]

One thing I will say is that static abilities can still interact in interesting effects. Case in point, Rite of Reflection (kicked) targeting an opposing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.

So, Rite of Replication resolves, leaving me with 5 elesh norn tokens and you with the original

State based actions are checked simultaneously. All of your creatures get -10/-10 and the non Elesh Norn creatures you have get +2/+2 from yours. Simultaneously, all of my creatures get +10/+10 if they're not my Elesh Norn Tokens, and my Elesh Norn tokens get +8/+8. Any creatures that are below 0 toughness go to the graveyard. However, at the same time I have to pick one of my tokens and sacrifice the rest due to the legendary rule.

Next round of State Based Actions. Now, your Elesh Norn is most likely dead due to the -10/-10, unless she was equipped or had auras or something else going on. That leaves me with one elesh norn, giving my other creatures +2/+2, and all of your creatures -2/-2.



Another example of fun rules interaction is how the Scapeshift deck in modern gets kills. Have 7 lands out, cast Scapeshift, shifting into Valakut plus 6 mountains (Those are often dual type lands such as Steam Vents or Stomping Ground). All of the mountains see each other entering the battlefield, getting 18 points of damage in. Often people take some damage from their lands, so that's often lethal. If you need more damage just get more lands out or finish with lightning bolts or something.

[Androgeus]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

I wouldn't say faster as that implies they take time to apply. They just are.


Another example of fun rules interaction is how the Scapeshift deck in modern gets kills. Have 7 lands out, cast Scapeshift, shifting into Valakut plus 6 mountains (Those are often dual type lands such as Steam Vents or Stomping Ground). All of the mountains see each other entering the battlefield, getting 18 points of damage in. Often people take some damage from their lands, so that's often lethal. If you need more damage just get more lands out or finish with lightning bolts or something.

Note that if I destroy on of the mountains before the damage is dealt then you won't deal any damage. This is because of the if in the middle of Valakut's ability (an inverting if) is checked both when it triggers and when the ability resolves.

If you really want to get in to fun with triggers, play with warp world.

[Ninjaman]

So "static" (not a game term, but you know what I mean) is faster than "instant"?

Then allow me to blow your mind by telling you that layers mean some static effects are "faster" than others. But this isn't something you are expected to know.

That reminds me of a question I saw once:
You have two opalescence, a humility, a life and limb,a Xenograph on saproling and a blood moon. They have all been put into play with warpworld, meaning you choose the timestamps. What are the possible outcomes?

[Androgeus]

Then allow me to blow your mind by telling you that layers mean some static effects are "faster" than others. But this isn't something you are expected to know.

Layers is more to do with the order to apply effects rather than timings (well ok timestamps still effect things). I just felt that using faster implied that static effects took time to apply.

If I had the time I would sort your humility/opalescence question, but I don't.:smallfrown:

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

I think this is a good place for a variation on the stock "RPG problems" advice: Do the other players in question actually mind you (potentially) winning all the time? If not, do your worst.


I've been playing DotP 2015, as I mentioned earlier, and I want to make sure I'm not learning things the wrong way.

As far as I know Duels of the Planeswalkers is completely rules-correct (barring bugs, of course), though it's still useful to know why certain situations turn out the way they do.


If I had the time I would sort your humility/opalescence question, but I don't.:smallfrown:

http://forewardsapp.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/aint-nobody-got-time-for-that.jpg

[Lhurgyof]

I think this is a good place for a variation on the stock "RPG problems" advice: Do the other players in question actually mind you (potentially) winning all the time? If not, do your worst.

They don't seem to really mind. They understand that my decks are generally better than theirs. The only problem is that they'll get burned out after a couple stomp fests and stop playing for the day.

With the current spoilers for Commander 2014 up, I have a question about running a certain card in a deck of mine (spoiled for spoilers):

I have a Grixis "SuperVillains" EDH deck, and I was wondering if the new Ob Nixilis would be good in it. Teferi is pretty much auto-included due to how well he works with superfriends, and I like that Ob can produce pretty beefy blockers for himself.

Here's the deck list, any advice based on the spoiler or not would be helpful: E. V. I. L. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/e-v-i-l/)

[Ninjaman]

Here's the deck list, any advice based on the spoiler or not would be helpful: E. V. I. L. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/e-v-i-l/)

Tibalt seems bad. Also I noticed that you are playing bloodgift demon but not phyrexian arena.

[Lhurgyof]

Tibalt seems bad. Also I noticed that you are playing bloodgift demon but not phyrexian arena.

Yeah, Tibalt has always been meh. I could probably pull him for one of the C14 cards.

I need creatures, as I have very few in the deck. Or are you saying I should have both ? If so, sure, but what should I pull?

[Ninjaman]

Yeah, Tibalt has always been meh. I could probably pull him for one of the C14 cards.

I need creatures, as I have very few in the deck. Or are you saying I should have both ? If so, sure, but what should I pull?

Why do you need creatures in your superfriend's deck? Both tezz's seem cuttable. Sarkan doesn't seem very good. Lily of the dark realms seem bad. Pyromaster and nalaar are both weak. Decree of Annihalation I am not sure of. Burnished Hart is just bad. Cut Scroll Rack because you don't play fetches. Cut Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Cut Dragonmaster outcast. Cut Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.

I would add:
Five lands
Phyrexian Arena
Blue sun's zenith
More card draw
In Garruk's Wake

[Sith_Happens]

:smalleek:

>Planeswalkers that can be commanders.

I actually feel like that should be the general rule, but there are a lot of 'walkers that would be hella OP as commanders.

[Ninjaman]

:smalleek:

>Planeswalkers that can be commanders.

I actually feel like that should be the general rule, but there are a lot of 'walkers that would be hella OP as commanders.

Which ones would be OP?

[Lhurgyof]

Why do you need creatures in your superfriend's deck? Both tezz's seem cuttable. Sarkan doesn't seem very good. Lily of the dark realms seem bad. Pyromaster and nalaar are both weak. Decree of Annihalation I am not sure of. Burnished Hart is just bad. Cut Scroll Rack because you don't play fetches. Cut Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Cut Dragonmaster outcast. Cut Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.

I would add:
Five lands
Phyrexian Arena
Blue sun's zenith
More card draw
In Garruk's Wake

Mostly because if I don't have access to creatures my planeswalkers would die even more often than they already do and I'd die pretty easy; this deck gets focus fired at the table because they know decree is coming. I like running as many walkers as I can as it is a walker deck, but I can understand your ideas for cuts. Lilly is good to find me shocks and duals, sarkhan is okay for drawing cards (but I see your point). Pyromaster is the only Chandra that can draw cards, even if her ultimate sucks, but I do like Nalaar. And mono-u Tez is good for finding me rocks, chain veil, or artifact lands. Unfortunately for me, though, Grixis walkers is a little harder to do than Bant walkers (because Angus Mackenzie is the perfect general and it opens up cards like wargate, doubling season, and gilder bairn), so I need to protect them as much as possible. I understand the creature cuts you suggest, but only one of the cards you suggested can protect my walkers, and it's a seven drop. So I'd really need more ways of protecting my walkers, because Lethal Vapors doesn't always get the job done. It's my SuperVillains deck, so I want to make sure to have as many of the walkers in it as I can feasibly run, but right now I think I'm at the max I can run.

Burnished hart is the only land ramp available to Grixis, that's generally why I run it in non-green decks. Also, Scroll Rack is bad without fetches? :smallconfused: I thought it was pretty damn good, especially with Consecrated Sphinx and other card draw on the board.

I like your suggestions for cards to add, other than five lands (40 seems way too high, I've never run an EDH deck with more than 37).

Edit: Not trying to be an ass, I just want to know the reasoning behind your suggestions, I'm certainly taking them into account. With the cards in the deck being really expensive I want to really be sure of any edits I make to it before I go through with them. :P


Which ones would be OP?

Hmm, I'm not really sure since walkers are much less varied than legendary creatures, giving you many less decks and colors to play with. Probably good ol' mindsculptor though. Play him in a combo/control deck and go to town.

[Androgeus]

Which ones would be OP?

Sorin Markov lets you set other's life to 10 repeatedly and consistently would be a problem. Tezzeret the Seeker would be really good as well letting you search up pretty much any artifact you need. Planeswalkers that make stackable emblems might also have issues.

[Lhurgyof]

Sorin Markov lets you set other's life to 10 repeatedly and consistently would be a problem. Tezzeret the Seeker would be really good as well letting you search up pretty much any artifact you need. Planeswalkers that make stackable emblems might also have issues.

Oh shoot, Tezzeret would be crazy. Kind of like Arcum decks.

[Binks]

Which ones would be OP?
Sarkhan the Mad could actually be pretty ridiculous if recurring him was just a +2 colorless mana cost. Play a dragon's deck and you have, at basically any time, a massive burn spell at the ready (initial cost 5) that leaves behind an alt target or a removal spell and at least 1 card draw. That's not too bad. Still a bit of a 'win more' card given you need dragons out with a lot of power to work but this is commander we're talking about here, stalls that leave you with a massive board and no way to exploit it are the norm.

[Duck999]

Saying that any planeswalker could be commander would put too many cards on the banned as commander list. Their smaller minus ability becomes too good when you can just let them die and only needing to pay 2 extra colorless to return them.

[unseenmage]

Saying that any planeswalker could be commander would put too many cards on the banned as commander list. Their smaller minus ability becomes too good when you can just let them die and only needing to pay 2 extra colorless to return them.

Yeah, we tried this for a good long while and as it turns out any Commander with an Emblem that stacks is too strong to be a Commander. In addition the the unholy trinity that is Jace 2.0, original Tezz, and original Sorin. (Original Bolas used to be on the list but as it turns out he's way too expensive to be a truly OP Commander.)

[Ninjaman]

I guess.

Lord of Innistrad tokens would be pretty disgusting.
Lilliana vess would be like playing imperial seal as your commander.

I get your point.

[unseenmage]

I guess.

Lord of Innistrad tokens would be pretty disgusting.
Lilliana vess would be like playing imperial seal as your commander.

I get your point.

Sorin was bad but at least boardwipes kept his Emblem from being relevant sometimes. Venser was the worst. Absolutely unbelievably badwrongfun.

[Duck999]

Sorin was bad but at least boardwipes kept his Emblem from being relevant sometimes. Venser was the worst. Absolutely unbelievably badwrongfun.

...Yeeeaaah... Some planes walkers just don't work here. Player: I gain 10 life, now at 50. Sorin: I set you to 10. Player: I gain 20 life, now at 30. Sorin: I set you to ten. Player: I attack for 39, you are at 1. Sorin: Nope, I'm also at 10.:smalltongue:

[Androgeus]

...Yeeeaaah... Some planes walkers just don't work here. Player: I gain 10 life, now at 50. Sorin: I set you to 10. Player: I gain 20 life, now at 30. Sorin: I set you to ten. Player: I attack for 39, you are at 1. Sorin: Nope, I'm also at 10.:smalltongue:

unseenmage was talking about Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. Also I don't think you ever cast Sorin Markov unless you actually kill the player whose life you set to 10 that turn (or setting your life to 10 keeps you alive).

Is The Chain Veil almost an instant include in Planeswalker Commander?

[ChaosOS]

More or less, the 3 so far all seem to enjoy double activations and have ultimates you would enjoy ticking up to.

[ChaosOS]

Then allow me to blow your mind by telling you that layers mean some static effects are "faster" than others. But this isn't something you are expected to know.

That reminds me of a question I saw once:
You have two opalescence, a humility, a life and limb,a Xenograph on saproling and a blood moon. They have all been put into play with warpworld, meaning you choose the timestamps. What are the possible outcomes?

This is just like the "Judge Tower" format that was just posted to Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2ki4le/judge_tower_a_magic_format_for_judges_and_people/)

[Ninjaman]

This is just like the "Judge Tower" format that was just posted to Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2ki4le/judge_tower_a_magic_format_for_judges_and_people/)

I have played a similar game called "You're Out". We don't use a specific deck for it. It is sometimes played as a drinking game but I haven't tried that.

[Khay]

Remember how I talked about struggling to find a budget-friendly replacement for Wurmcoil Engine?

Guess what's getting a reprint in Commander 2014. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/commander-2014-edition-tokens-2014-10-28)

Well that was easy.

(BONUS: "Legendary Token Artifact Creature - Goblin Golem" is evidently too long to fit on the type line.)

[Sith_Happens]

Remember how I talked about struggling to find a budget-friendly replacement for Wurmcoil Engine?

Guess what's getting a reprint in Commander 2014. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/commander-2014-edition-tokens-2014-10-28)

Well that was easy.

Exactly the opposite; this means that whichever deck has the Wurmcoil in it is going to get marked up accordingly.:smallannoyed:

[Khay]

Exactly the opposite; this means that whichever deck has the Wurmcoil in it is going to get marked up accordingly.:smallannoyed:

I thought Commander products weren't limited print runs like From the Vault. Is it really possible to mark these up that much?

[Mystic Muse]

The Grixis commander deck got marked up to $60-$70 because of True-Name Nemesis

[Duck999]

unseenmage was talking about Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. Also I don't think you ever cast Sorin Markov unless you actually kill the player whose life you set to 10 that turn (or setting your life to 10 keeps you alive).

Is The Chain Veil almost an instant include in Planeswalker Commander?

Yeah. I was just pointing out how annoying some could get. Stackable emblems are very annoying when death is temporary. This would also probably jump some planes walker prices up for use as commander.

Edit: Teferi in super friends with chain veil and unwinding clock. 4 activations avery round.

[IcemanJRC]

I thought Commander products weren't limited print runs like From the Vault. Is it really possible to mark these up that much?

It's generally recommended to go to your local WalMart/Target and pick up the decks before other enterprising individuals do. Wurmcoil will probably not mark them up nearly as much as things like True-Name Nemesis or Scavenging Ooze did, seeing as it's a reprint rather than unique to Commander 2014. BUT, there's always one, so be conscientious.

[Svata]

Heh, commander. Good fun. I've got a Vorosh, the Hunter (6/6, flying, and any time he does combat damage to a player you canplay 2g and add 6 +1/+1 counters) commander deck that runs a Vorel of the Hull Clade (GU, Tap to double counters on target permanent), a Cryptoplasm(can become copy of one target creature each turn), and an Experiment Kraj (has all activated abilities of creatures with +1/+1 counters). And I have ways to give Vorosh double-strike. Needless to say, he gets big in a hurry. Did I mention the Tuskguard Captain (Trample to everyone with +1/+1 coutners), Prophet of Kruphix (untap all lands and creatures during every untap step), and Kruphix, God of Horizons (Unused mana converts to colorless at a 1:1 ratio) in that deck?

[Androgeus]

Yeah. I was just pointing out how annoying some could get. Stackable emblems are very annoying when death is temporary. This would also probably jump some planes walker prices up for use as commander.

Edit: Teferi in super friends with chain veil and unwinding clock. 4 activations avery round.

Talking of Teferi, anybody got any absurd things to use planeswalkers ability for on opponents turns? Silliest I can think of on the spot is Gideon Jura making all creatures attack him, then turning in to a creature to block one of them. This can lead to a situation where Gideon Jura taunts Gideon Jura in to attacking him instead of his planeswalker buddy, unfortunately Gideon Jura's attack on Gideon Jura gets blocked by Gideon Jura.

[Bucky]

Talking of Teferi, anybody got any absurd things to use planeswalkers ability for on opponents turns?

Liliana Vess, Liliana of the Veil or Karn Liberated can soft-lock an opponent by making them discard during their draw phase every turn. And Tamiyo gets to freeze things on their owner's upkeep, meaning she can lock down three permanents at once.

[Khay]

More Commander spoilers! The White planeswalker isn't Serra and the Red one isn't Slobad, which makes me sad. But the Lithomancer is pretty cool, and I have no idea who Daretti is and why he isn't Slobad, but hey, goblin planeswalker. That's still cool. Even though it's not Slobad.

Red deck increasingly looks like it's going all-in on exploiting Wurmcoil Engine, which is pretty cool. White deck looks to have an equipment theme, so - Batterskull reprint, maybe? Dare I hope? :smalltongue:

[Landis963]

I honestly went to Doug's tumblr to ask why this Daretti guy couldn't be Slobad, and found this (http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/101017516519/nice-to-have-you-back-answering-questions-i-have-a#notes):


I [have gotten / will get] this question a lot, and I wanted to take time to answer it. We definitely considered [your favorite old character/planeswalker] for this product, and we know [color] fans have been asking for [that character] for quite a while — and would probably have preferred [them] to [character we did print] in Commander 2014.

But in the end, we decided that [character we did print] [fit well mechanically / clicked with the deck theme / complemented the other characters] in the [color] deck and [had the most fans overall / had the best chance for a cool card / lacked certain creative problems / filled a niche we had wanted to fill for a long time]. Arguably [your favorite character/planeswalker] might [not have been represented well as monocolor / have overlapped with another character we wanted to focus on / exist in a similar mechanical design space to a more prominent character], as well, so that was on our minds when choosing to go a different direction.

But thanks for writing in. We hear your excitement for [your favorite old character/planeswalker], and maybe someday we’ll see a card for [them]. For now we get to enjoy [character we did print in that character’s stead] and the suite of other cool characters we did choose for Commander 2014. Hope you enjoy them, and that you’re excited to [add some sweet legends to your collection / check certain storyline characters off your personal request list / brew some new Commander decks]!

[Khay]

Since Slobad's stunt as a planeswalker lasted from page 391 to page 399 of the Fifth Dawn novel*, this was probably the one and only opportunity to give him a card. But hey, let's instead be nostalgic about a set released, wow, almost half a year ago? That's also cool.

(I don't mean to sound bitter, getting a goblin tinkerer planeswalker is still super cool and I'll probably get the red deck. I just wish it had been Slobad. :smalltongue: )


* German edition, first printing, exact numbers may vary

[Sith_Happens]

Holy crap, so much good stuff for my semi-zombies recursion deck.:smalleek:

I like how Stoneforge Mystic is a planeswalker now.:smallbiggrin:

Raving Dead is definitely my favorite card in the set so far. "It's not my fault you're being attacked by a damned-if-you-block-damned-if-you-don't creature! That's just the way the die roll ended up.":smallamused:

Could have mentioned this before, but Reef Worm is hilarious.

...How the heck did no one notice that Assault Suit doesn't work? As soon as you lose control of a creature it becomes unequipped.

[Androgeus]

Batterskull reprint, maybe? Dare I hope? :smalltongue:

There is a Germ in the tokens, so it's possible. The black deck does have Lashwrithe so the token is kinda accounted for, but there is always a chance.

[IcemanJRC]

Holy crap, so much good stuff for my semi-zombies recursion deck.:smalleek:

I like how Stoneforge Mystic is a planeswalker now.:smallbiggrin:

Raving Dead is definitely my favorite card in the set so far. "It's not my fault you're being attacked by a damned-if-you-block-damned-if-you-don't creature! That's just the way the die roll ended up.":smallamused:

Could have mentioned this before, but Reef Worm is hilarious.

...How the heck did no one notice that Assault Suit doesn't work? As soon as you lose control of a creature it becomes unequipped.

Nobody noticed because that isn't how it works. If you equip a creature and then someone else gains control of it, it is still equipped. You can move the equipment, and then it can't go back on that creature till you get it back, but it's still equipped until then.

[Mystic Muse]

Was hoping for Serra, but pre-ordered the white deck anyway.

[Binks]

...How the heck did no one notice that Assault Suit doesn't work? As soon as you lose control of a creature it becomes unequipped.
301.5b An Equipment is cast and enters the battlefield just like any other artifact. An Equipment doesn’t enter the battlefield attached to a creature. The equip keyword ability attaches the Equipment to a creature you control (see rule 702.6, “Equip”). Control of the creature matters only when the equip ability is activated and when it resolves. Spells and other abilities may also attach an Equipment to a creature. If an effect attempts to attach an Equipment to an object that can’t be equipped by it, the Equipment doesn’t move.

Figured I'd give you the relevant rule. Changing a creature's controller doesn't change the fact it still has equipment on it.

[Duck999]

How good would these commandwalkers be if they were playable in more formats?

[ChaosOS]

Nahiri and Daretti would be playable in modern. Given that they're only legal in vintage and legacy, their high casting cost, and design towards multiplayer, I don't foresee them seeing play outside of EDH.

[Seatbelt]

The planeswalkers are all super neat. I still hate the idea of walker commanders.

[Somensjev]

i really hope they release a planeswalker card for ugin in one of the next khans sets now, (i mean, i already wanted one, but now even more so). since we now have the cards of two of the three planeswalkers who sealed away the eldrazi


i so want to run a deck in my casual group with all three of the eldrazi titans, and the 'walkers who sealed them :smallbiggrin:

[raymundo]

Exactly the opposite; this means that whichever deck has the Wurmcoil in it is going to get marked up accordingly.:smallannoyed:

That really doesn't matter if you just want the Wurmcoil Engine. Actually, the more people just buy it just to sell the Wurmcoil for a profit, the better for those who want to pick them up cheap.

Also, C14 will be reprinted as long as there is demand.



Nahiri and Daretti would be playable in modern. Given that they're only legal in vintage and legacy, their high casting cost, and design towards multiplayer, I don't foresee them seeing play outside of EDH.

Daretti might spawn some funny Artifact-shenanigans decks, but Nahiri is really terrible in Modern. She doesn't upgrade any existing deck, and her effects aren't impressive enough to spawn any new ones.

[Duck999]

i really hope they release a planeswalker card for ugin in one of the next khans sets now, (i mean, i already wanted one, but now even more so). since we now have the cards of two of the three planeswalkers who sealed away the eldrazi


i so want to run a deck in my casual group with all three of the eldrazi titans, and the 'walkers who sealed them :smallbiggrin:

That would be entertaining, but I do not believe that Ugin would be printed. He existed long ago, and I don't follownthe sotry enouh to know if he is alive. I do, however, know that the original planeswalkers (not the cards) were overpowered immortals, and I don't think those will become cards.
I think all that's true, I'm not completely sure.

[Ionbound]

*looks at Karn*

You sure about that, Duck?

Anyways, Ugin is dead, but there has been a lot of hinting he's going to be resurrected somehow by the end of the block. Which is why people expect an Ugin card.

[IthilanorStPete]

That would be entertaining, but I do not believe that Ugin would be printed. He existed long ago, and I don't follownthe sotry enouh to know if he is alive. I do, however, know that the original planeswalkers (not the cards) were overpowered immortals, and I don't think those will become cards.
I think all that's true, I'm not completely sure.

There's a number of oldwalkers who survived the Mending, albeit depowered, and have had cards made. As firedaemon said, there's Karn. Venser and Bolas were both active in the storyline prior to the Mending. Sorin used to be an oldwalker, and was one at the time he, Ugin, and Nahiri sealed the Eldrazi.

[IcemanJRC]

So I'll be attending GP San Antonio at the end of November and I was wondering if anyone around the playground wanted to through some advice my way. I mean, I've been to handful of larger events, but if there's some tips and tricks I might've missed or if anyone's got the inside info on the Standard meta right now, I'd like to hear it.

[Sith_Happens]

301.5b An Equipment is cast and enters the battlefield just like any other artifact. An Equipment doesn’t enter the battlefield attached to a creature. The equip keyword ability attaches the Equipment to a creature you control (see rule 702.6, “Equip”). Control of the creature matters only when the equip ability is activated and when it resolves. Spells and other abilities may also attach an Equipment to a creature. If an effect attempts to attach an Equipment to an object that can’t be equipped by it, the Equipment doesn’t move.

Figured I'd give you the relevant rule. Changing a creature's controller doesn't change the fact it still has equipment on it.

Huh, okay. I was extrapolating from the rule where a creature no longer being a valid target for Equip makes it become unequipped (in before it turns out only Auras do that), interesting that control of the creature is an exception to that.


That really doesn't matter if you just want the Wurmcoil Engine. Actually, the more people just buy it just to sell the Wurmcoil for a profit, the better for those who want to pick them up cheap.

*looks up Wurmcoil Engine on TCGPlayer to double-check whether it's even that expensive any more in the first place*
*it's not*

[Mystic Muse]

define 'that expensive' because the mid price is still $20, which is what most places will sell them for as a result.

[Duck999]

define 'that expensive' because the mid price is still $20, which is what most places will sell them for as a result.

As expensive as it was before. Probably.

About the oldwalkers: I had heard about them being dispowered, I just forgot that part.:smallredface: I realized the flaw after posting that Sorin had to be just as old as Ugin if they ever worked together...

[Narkis]

i really hope they release a planeswalker card for ugin in one of the next khans sets now, (i mean, i already wanted one, but now even more so). since we now have the cards of two of the three planeswalkers who sealed away the eldrazi


i so want to run a deck in my casual group with all three of the eldrazi titans, and the 'walkers who sealed them :smallbiggrin:

Ugin will get a card, and probably this February. Sarkhan is being guided by Ugin's spirit to travel back in time and save him from Bolas. Various people and stories from wizards have said as much. And we have this art from Fate Reforged:

http://mythicspoiler.com/frf/pic2.jpg

[Duck999]

So does that mean Ugin, Nicol Bolas, and Sarkhan across the next two sets? Wow...

[Khay]

So does that mean Ugin, Nicol Bolas, and Sarkhan across the next two sets? Wow...

Well, Sarkhan already got his card in the first set, Ugin will probably be in the second... I wonder if they'll print Bolas, though. Fate Reforged will be drafted with Khans until the third set is released. Combining a super-high-profile planeswalker in shard colours with a wedge set sounds awkward, to say the least.

[Narkis]

I don't think we'll see Bolas. He's been behind the plot of most recent sets and yet he hasn't gotten a new card. He's more of a behind the scenes manipulator kind of dragon.

[Landis963]

I don't think we'll see Bolas. He's been behind the plot of most recent sets and yet he hasn't gotten a new card. He's more of a behind the scenes manipulator kind of dragon.

Besides, unless he's piggybacking off of Sarkhan's brain (wouldn't put it past him, but still), he doesn't know this is happening. And won't know until the timeline changes, whichever way, shape, or form that takes.

[Sith_Happens]

define 'that expensive' because the mid price is still $20, which is what most places will sell them for as a result.

The low prices are ~$14 for near mint, and if you order online there's no reason you should have to pay the mid price.

[sonofzeal]

I just got a copy of "Beastmaster Ascension (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=197890&type=card)" in DotP '15, and I'm interested in its applications for my Token deck. If I attack with seven 1/1 token creatures, they power up to 6/6 before the defender declares blockers, right? Intuitively, even if he immediately reacts with "Shock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370654&type=card)" or somesuch, he could kill that one but the others would still power up because "add tokens to Beastmaster Ascension" is still on the stack even if one of the creatures triggering it isn't there any more, right? Or is this another case where, because Beastmaster Ascension is "static" speed, the opponent doesn't even have time to cast an Instant?

[ChaosOS]

For every attacker you declare, one instance of the quest counter trigger goes on the stack. Each resolves separately, and your opponent could shock in response to kill a 1/1 token. Once all the counters are on it's a static effect granting +5/+5 to all creatures you control

[sonofzeal]

For every attacker you declare, one instance of the quest counter trigger goes on the stack. Each resolves separately, and your opponent could shock in response to kill a 1/1 token. Once all the counters are on it's a static effect granting +5/+5 to all creatures you control

That's about what I expected. And because the quest counter triggers go on the stack when attackers are declared, they come off the stack even before blockers are declared, right?

[IthilanorStPete]

That's about what I expected. And because the quest counter triggers go on the stack when attackers are declared, they come off the stack even before blockers are declared, right?

Yes, they resolve well before declaration of blockers. To pass to the next phase (in general, not just when going from declare attackers to declare blockers), the stack needs to be empty and both players need to pass priority. (say they're done for the phase and have nothing else to cast)

[Boci]

I just got a copy of "Beastmaster Ascension (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=197890&type=card)" in DotP '15, and I'm interested in its applications for my Token deck. If I attack with seven 1/1 token creatures, they power up to 6/6 before the defender declares blockers, right? Intuitively, even if he immediately reacts with "Shock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370654&type=card)" or somesuch, he could kill that one but the others would still power up because "add tokens to Beastmaster Ascension" is still on the stack even if one of the creatures triggering it isn't there any more, right? Or is this another case where, because Beastmaster Ascension is "static" speed, the opponent doesn't even have time to cast an Instant?

An opponent could cast shock before your combat step, thus killing off one of your tokens and possible not leaving you with enough to trigger BMA that turn.

[Lea Plath]

I'mma back!

So, I've been playing a lot less magic in recent months due to work but now can finally indulge my past time. I'm playing Scapeshift atm and trying to settle on which variant is the right one at the moment. Currently I'm playing Serum Visions/Telling Time version but considering going for Bolts, Telling Time and Cliques instead. Dig is OMG powerful in scapeshift. Let me just fetch a double counterspell.

Also, new walkers are fun. Not good but fun.

[DanaK]

So this is a Selesnya deck I made and have been dabbling with for awhile. When Journey into Nyx got released, I made some major overhauls and came out with roughly what you see here.

Creatures:
4 Satyr Grovedancer (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551533)
2 Skyspear Cavalry (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551473)
2 Seraph of Dawn (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392638)
2 Serra Angel (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=459809)
1 Aegis Angel (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=279460)
1 Fabled Hero (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=513184)
1 Angel of Finality (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=514702)
1 Leonin Skyhunter (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=234259)
1 Nyx-Fleece Ram (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551430)
1 Supply-Line Cranes (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551475)
1 Shepherd of the Lost (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=166784)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392394)

Artifacts:
2 Elixir of Immortality (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=404401)
2 Bow of Nylea (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=513148)

Enchantments:
3 Banishing Light (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551452)
2 Quest for the Gemblades (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=166448)
2 Unflinching Courage (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=446571)
2 Collective Blessing (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=412759)
2 Arrest (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=413441)
1 Font of Fertility (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551442)
1 Cathars’ Crusade (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392454)
1 Ordeal of Heliod (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=513179)
1 Indestructibility (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=461328)

Instants:
3 Heroes Reunion (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=412558)
2 Common Bond (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=413464)
2 Reap What Is Sown (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=537800)
1 Naturalize (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=461371)
1 Solidarity of Heroes (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551534)

Planeswalkers:
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551352)

Sorceries:
3 Revoke Existence (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=537870)
2 Desecration Plague (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551524)
1 Blessings of Nature (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392730)
1 Lay of the Land (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=459851)
1 Travel Preparations (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=284612)
1 Rampant Growth (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=268577)

Lands:
13 Plains
13 Forests
2 Seraph Sanctuary (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392767)
1 Sunpetal Grove (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=404486)


This deck mainly focuses on ramping up creatures and life gain. I haven’t yet had the opportunity to play someone else with it, but I’d appreciate any feedback and advice.

[Duck999]

If you want consistency, I recommend f=more than one of each creature. Also, more sun petal grove's if you can.
That was just a quick skim through, but really, I suggest not having a ton of different copies of different creatures. Even in casual, I'd recommend more 2s than 1s.

[Khay]

So this is a Selesnya deck I made and have been dabbling with for awhile. When Journey into Nyx got released, I made some major overhauls and came out with roughly what you see here.

Creatures:
4 Satyr Grovedancer (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551533)
2 Skyspear Cavalry (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551473)
2 Seraph of Dawn (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392638)
2 Serra Angel (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=459809)
1 Aegis Angel (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=279460)
1 Fabled Hero (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=513184)
1 Angel of Finality (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=514702)
1 Leonin Skyhunter (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=234259)
1 Nyx-Fleece Ram (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551430)
1 Supply-Line Cranes (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551475)
1 Shepherd of the Lost (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=166784)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392394)

Artifacts:
2 Elixir of Immortality (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=404401)
2 Bow of Nylea (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=513148)

Enchantments:
3 Banishing Light (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551452)
2 Quest for the Gemblades (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=166448)
2 Unflinching Courage (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=446571)
2 Collective Blessing (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=412759)
2 Arrest (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=413441)
1 Font of Fertility (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551442)
1 Cathars’ Crusade (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392454)
1 Ordeal of Heliod (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=513179)
1 Indestructibility (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=461328)

Instants:
3 Heroes Reunion (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=412558)
2 Common Bond (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=413464)
2 Reap What Is Sown (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=537800)
1 Naturalize (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=461371)
1 Solidarity of Heroes (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551534)

Planeswalkers:
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551352)

Sorceries:
3 Revoke Existence (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=537870)
2 Desecration Plague (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=551524)
1 Blessings of Nature (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392730)
1 Lay of the Land (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=459851)
1 Travel Preparations (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=284612)
1 Rampant Growth (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=268577)

Lands:
13 Plains
13 Forests
2 Seraph Sanctuary (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392767)
1 Sunpetal Grove (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=404486)


This deck mainly focuses on ramping up creatures and life gain. I haven’t yet had the opportunity to play someone else with it, but I’d appreciate any feedback and advice.

Interesting start! A few thoughts:

Pure lifegain spells (like Heroes' Reunion) are rarely as good as they seem because they cause card disadvantage and don't impact the board. The lifeswing has to be very high for them to be worth it; at 7 life, Heroes' Reunion is usually just going to be a Fog. Usually, the way you want to go is incidental lifegain (i. e. cards that gain you life and do something else besides), such as Nyx-Fleece Ram.
You have a lot of lifegain in your deck, so you could consider throwing in a few cards that synergise with it. Archangel of Thune is probably way out of budget, but if you can get your hands on one, it'd probably fit in nicely. Failing that, Ajani's Pridemate is an efficient creature that also benefits from lifelink - especially repeatable lifelink like you get from Nyx-Fleece Ram.
Khans of Tarkir has a few cards in it that synergise with +1/+1 counters. Abzan Falconer, Ainok Bond-Kin and Abzan Battle Priest come to mind.
It's fine to have one-ofs and two-ofs, but, as mentioned by Duck999, if your deck is mostly one-ofs, it gets very very inconsistent. You probably want to consolidate your list a little, see what cards aren't pulling their weight, and cut them.

[sonofzeal]

On the subject of lifegain, here's my lifegain deck, put together in DotP '15 so I'm rather limited in some of my card choices, but probably still legal in modern. Feedback appreciated!

Plains x20
Radiant Fountain (http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/radiantfountain.jpg) x4

Trained Caracal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=253615&type=card) x3 <- even sacrificing it with Pridemate on the field is fine.
Cloudshift (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=240006&type=card) x1 <- a great card, but poor synergy with this deck in most cases.
Gods Willing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=373516&type=card) x1 <- Should I run more of these?
Ajani's Pridemate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205065&type=card) x4 <- one of the cornerstone cards
Ordeal of Heliod (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=373619&type=card) x2
Reprisal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380480&type=card) x1
Lone Missionary (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=193426&type=card) x4
Nimbus Wings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=180346&type=card) x2 <- good on a Trained Caracal to swing past blockers.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos (http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Brimaz-King-of-Oreskos-Born-of-the-Gods-Spoiler.jpg) x1 <- no special synergy, just great by itself.
Mentor of the Meek (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=244682&type=card) x2 <- one of my favorite white cards.
Banisher Priest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370624&type=card) x3 <- essential. I'd run four if I had them.
Attended Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=265723&type=card) x1 <- possible target for auras, trigger Mentor twice
Standing Troops (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=13139&type=card) x1 <- possible target for auras, stall while getting combos out
Arrest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=209007&type=card) x1 <- for when I don't have Banishers
Rhox Faithmender (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=279987&type=card) x2 <- another cornerstone card
Armored Ascension (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=204997&type=card) x3 <- amazing in any mono-white
Angelic Accord (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370612&type=card) x2 <- the third cornerstone card
Marked by Honor (http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/markedbyhonor1.jpg) x1 <- get Vigilance on the Pridemate
Baneslayer Angel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=205077&type=card) x1
Angelic Edict (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=366400&type=card) x1


I really wish I had a Felidar Sovereign or two. And I'm not sure about the right balance of removal, creatures, and auras. I like auras, even though you're putting more eggs in one basket, because they let you get something out-of-depth and with particularly advantageous sets of characteristics. And the ability to have a creature already down, slap an aura on it, and attack immediately that turn is valuable. I try not to over-use them though.

[Snowbluff]

Ohai.

You know what I liked about Zendikar? My Standard Deck.

x4 Nest Invader
x4 Kozilek's Predator
x4 Harabaz Druid (A relic from when it was more ally oriented)
x4 It that Betrays
x4 Pathrazer of Ulamog (I had the 3 legendary Eldrazi, but these are the cheap way to do the deck)

x4 Awakening Zone

x4 Mass Polymorph
x4 Growth Spasm

Sideboard: Genesis Waves, Dispels.

Make token and eldrazi it. I'd say the weakness is the lack of one drops, which is something I fixed once it went out of standard.

I'm making a God's EDH deck right now. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381356-Magic-the-Gathering-All-Gods-in-an-EDH-deck&p=18348180#post18348180)

[Tvtyrant]

Is the consensus that Wormcoil Engine at $8 is not going to drop any further? Or is there a good chance that holding out will get it to drop to the $5 range?

[Duck999]

Ooh! Zendikar. I loved Zendikar. Still do, actually. And Lorwyn. I liked a lot of the tribal stuff, and wished I could keep making tribal decks with new cards. It isn't as easy anymore.

[Snowbluff]

Ooh! Zendikar. I loved Zendikar. Still do, actually. And Lorwyn. I liked a lot of the tribal stuff, and wished I could keep making tribal decks with new cards. It isn't as easy anymore.

I played before Zendikar, but I really didn't start collecting cards until then. I kind of skipped innistrad, and I've been playing a lot more frequently since RtR. We mostly play EDH on campus, but I've tried maintaining a standard deck.

You can try a tribal gods deck in standard. ^^

[Duck999]

I'm sorry, but I don't think tribal gods is a thing. Tribal usually refers to cards that somehow benefit from having other cards of the same race. For example, tribal noncreatures (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rootgrapple). Also, lords (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205041). Some noticeable ones are vampires, elves, goblins, merfolk, and treefolk. A simple search can find all sorts of tribal cards. But gods? Not tribal.:smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

Tribal generally just means using a deck that is that creature to the exclusion of almost all others. There are some tribal decks that use different ones occasionally, such as Qasali Pridemage in G/W Knights.

I can have a "Tribal Wurms" deck even if there are no wurm lords, or with there being no real synergy between them.

[Snowbluff]

I'm sorry, but I don't think tribal gods is a thing. Tribal usually refers to cards that somehow benefit from having other cards of the same race. For example, tribal noncreatures (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rootgrapple). Also, lords (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205041). Some noticeable ones are vampires, elves, goblins, merfolk, and treefolk. A simple search can find all sorts of tribal cards. But gods? Not tribal.:smalltongue:
As an aside, you forgot Eldrazi tribal! Swarm with Eldrazi Spawn!

Tribal generally just means using a deck that is that creature to the exclusion of almost all others. There are some tribal decks that use different ones occasionally, such as Qasali Pridemage in G/W Knights.

I can have a "Tribal Wurms" deck even if there are no wurm lords, or with there being no real synergy between them.
I concur with this... Elesh pwn. o.0

[ChaosOS]

If you want the current standard tribal decks, there's a little support for tribal minotaur and tribal warriors, with tribal goblins being potential just because there's some rather good goblin cards in standard now.

[Mystic Muse]

I concur with this... Elesh pwn. o.0

It's an OC villain of mine for an RP world that never got started. :smalltongue:

And yeah, the definition of tribal will vary from person to person. Your definition does make sense for competitive formats however, Duck999, because a deck of creatures with no real synergy will probably get lumped in under a different definition.

[Duck999]

What if you beastmaster ascension'd with 10 eldrazi spawn out. The amazingness of killing your opponent with 0/1s. I love it.

An all god deck, or even a half of the gods deck, probably would not end up very nicely outside of commander. I suppose you could do it with a lot of multicolor, but... I kind of want to try that now.

Edit: Some 'tribal' decks would probably fall under aggro with an awful lot of ____

[Mystic Muse]

What if you beastmaster ascension'd with 10 eldrazi spawn out. The amazingness of killing your opponent with 0/1s. I love it.

An all god deck, or even a half of the gods deck, probably would not end up very nicely outside of commander. I suppose you could do it with a lot of multicolor, but... I kind of want to try that now.

Somebody at my FNM is giving it a shot. I don't expect it to go very well, but hey, this game is for fun anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Eldrazi have a few specific cards, like the one that gives the spawns +2/+1. Shared Animosity and Coat of Arms will give buffs to the spawn as well as the drones and big guys. BMA should be in every green aggro. Too good to be blue. (What am I saying?)

[Ninjaman]

A guy at my local store usually does pretty well with a B/W warriors list.


BMA should be in every green aggro.

No it shouldn't.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Eldrazi have a few specific cards, like the one that gives the spawns +2/+1. Shared Animosity and Coat of Arms will give buffs to the spawn as well as the drones and big guys. BMA should be in every green aggro. Too good to be blue. (What am I saying?)

Beastmaster Ascension in a green-based aggro deck is usually a horrible pick.

It has no direct impact on the board when it comes into play, it's fragile to enchantment removal, and you need a massive swarm of creatures for it to become active quick enough, and in aggro you want to be playing your 3 drops on curve.

That said for a fun token swarm deck, knock yourself out.

[Bucky]

Beastmaster Ascension in a green-based aggro deck is usually a horrible pick.

It has no direct impact on the board when it comes into play, it's fragile to enchantment removal, and you need a massive swarm of creatures for it to become active quick enough, and in aggro you want to be playing your 3 drops on curve.

That said for a fun token swarm deck, knock yourself out.

Beastmaster Ascension
Goblin Assault
Goblinslide
Xenagos, the Reveller
Tempt with Vengance at the top
Maybe splash for Assemble the Legion.

Fill out the curve with mana creatures, burn or your favorite Haste beaters.

[Snowbluff]

Needs an overwhelming stampede or dragon throne on the target of Xenagos. :smalltongue:

Beastmaster Ascension in a green-based aggro deck is usually a horrible pick.

It has no direct impact on the board when it comes into play, it's fragile to enchantment removal, and you need a massive swarm of creatures for it to become active quick enough, and in aggro you want to be playing your 3 drops on curve.

That said for a fun token swarm deck, knock yourself out.

Maybe run 2. Wait until you have 7 creatures, including 1/1 mana critters. Put it out. Attack. "Dies to removal" fallacy.

I see what you mean, though. I was speaking from a casual EDH perspective.

[Duck999]

Somebody at my FNM is giving it a shot. I don't expect it to go very well, but hey, this game is for fun anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Which one, gods? That could be very entertaining. I'd try it, but I have no gods. I would also try the eldrazi one, but I have those not too.

[Snowbluff]

Which one, gods? That could be very entertaining. I'd try it, but I have no gods. I would also try the eldrazi one, but I have those not too.

I have some ready for the deck. Mogis, Pharika, Kruphix, Nylea, Phenax, Thassa at least off the top of my head. I'll be able to trade for the Athreos and Keranos. I'm adding a Sisay and a couple other legendaries that are cheap or I own to better procure the gods. I think I'll have fun with it. Optimizing the unoptimized is fun.

[Duck999]

I have some ready for the deck. Mogis, Pharika, Kruphix, Nylea, Phenax, Thassa at least off the top of my head. I'll be able to trade for the Athreos and Keranos. I'm adding a Sisay and a couple other legendaries that are cheap or I own to better procure the gods. I think I'll have fun with it. Optimizing the unoptimized is fun.

Tribal cats! I have seen some nasty cat tribal. Or at least a ton of cats stuffed in one deck. Optimizing stuff that is generally considered bad can be very fun. I just do not spend much money on those kinds of decks because I never really keep them for long.

[sonofzeal]

Any feedback on my Lifegain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18356868&postcount=148) deck?

[Duck999]

Any feedback on my Lifegain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18356868&postcount=148) deck?

I play now white outside of commander and limited, but I can say some. Cloudshift, why is it in there? You yourself said it had poor synergy. Replace it. Also, there are better choices than arrest.

[sonofzeal]

I play now white outside of commander and limited, but I can say some. Cloudshift, why is it in there? You yourself said it had poor synergy. Replace it. Also, there are better choices than arrest.
Cloudshift is in there because it can fairly consistently trade up and works beautifully with cards like Lone Missionary, but with the number of auras (and tokens for Pridemade), perhaps I should switch it for another Gods Willing.

As for Arrest, you're right, it lost its place when Hero of Iroas got taken out... I do like having removal and pseudo-removal though. Which would be better do you think, a second Reprisal or a second Angelic Edict?

[Duck999]

If you are planning on having a large pridemate, I would say another reprisal. It is low costing and removes those giant things.

[TechnOkami]

Hey MTG thread, I've got a question for y'alls.

When the Innistrad block re-introduced werewolves with their transformation mechanic, it got me all kinds of happy, because werewolves are my favorite. But as far as making a werewolf deck goes, how strong are they? Does the transformation mechanic tend to be useful, or does it screw you over somehow? Is transforming them actually difficult to do, in the sense that you'll always have an empty hand or something?

Note: I rarely play magic nowadays and don't plan to do anything super cereal. I have an angry goat token deck for crying out loud. And an exalted deck. And a wolf token deck.

[Snowbluff]

I've messed them up pretty bad.

[Duck999]

Hey MTG thread, I've got a question for y'alls.

When the Innistrad block re-introduced werewolves with their transformation mechanic, it got me all kinds of happy, because werewolves are my favorite. But as far as making a werewolf deck goes, how strong are they? Does the transformation mechanic tend to be useful, or does it screw you over somehow? Is transforming them actually difficult to do, in the sense that you'll always have an empty hand or something?

Note: I rarely play magic nowadays and don't plan to do anything super cereal. I have an angry goat token deck for crying out loud. And an exalted deck. And a wolf token deck.

1) Those decks you have sound awfully fun.
2) Werewolves, I once had a deck for them. Not super competitive, but they work. Once you start top decking, you are good. You just go a turn without casting anything, then only cast 1 spell per turn. The problem is your opponents can play instants on your turn to flip the werewolves, and you can't do much responding on your opponents turn if you want them WW side up. There are a few cards that can help with that. All in all, I personally find werewolves fun.

[CantigThimble]

Werewolves are quite good and remarkably reliable considering their theme mechanic. It's often a simple matter to hold onto cards for a turn to get them to transform. (unless of course your opponent drops an instant to prevent this, in which case be happy that it was likely used inefficiently.) This can lead to loss of tempo, especially if your opponent casts multiple spells the next turn. Fortunately full moonmist and immerwolf can make them more reliable. Also, you're in time to get Huntmaster of the Fells for less than a limb! All in all, the times I've seen or used werewolves it's been fun, and that sounds like what you want. Plus, with your goats you can put together your own Predators vs Livestock duel decks! That's an opportunity you just can't pass up.

[TechnOkami]

Thanks for the feedback. This all sounds right down my alley.

Also, death by goats (and a Furystoke Giant) is pretty much the most satisfying way to kill someone. Exalted decks are pretty fun, as making a creature a 7/7 or bigger at the drop of the hat is pretty great, especially with an unblockable creature like a Jhessian Infiltraitor. The wolf token deck is slow to build up, but hoards of wolves.

I lol'd pretty hard at the Hunter vs Livestock matchup, just by the by.

Also, why is Huntmaster of the Fells cheap to buy all of the sudden?

[Duck999]

Another thing about wolves: they work horribly against counterspells. The counterspell counters one wolf, and is the second spell cast, flipping all the wolves that you have out.
Also, make sure you have full moons rise and moonmist. Moonmist might also be useful in your wolf token deck if it is not already there.

Edit: Huntmaster, out of standard, price drops. As far as I know...

[Androgeus]

Another thing about wolves: they work horribly against counterspells. The counterspell counters one wolf, and is the second spell cast, flipping all the wolves that you have out.

Nope. Werewolves transform back when a player cast two spells in a turn, not if two players cast one spell each.

[Mystic Muse]

I pulled a Wooded Foothills and foil Treasure cruise in the same pack. :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

Also, why is Huntmaster of the Fells cheap to buy all of the sudden?

Because it was only ever good competitively in Standard and rotated out of Standard thirteen months ago.

[Boci]

Can you oblivion ring your opponent’s oblivion ring that is oblivion ringing your oblivion ring?

On a more serious note I have another set of cards in mind experimenting with an idea of cheap, awkward to use cards. Here's the one I had first:

"Far Realm Hand
Instant - {B}
When Far Realm Hand is cast, if it isn't exiled, counter it.
Destroy target creature. Put a X/X zombie token onto the battlefield tapped, where X is the target creature's converted mana cost.

The hand brings the essence of the world it reaches from. If it reaches from the realm of life, it brings life. If it reaches from the realm of oblivion..."

Did I word that right?

[Androgeus]

Can you oblivion ring your opponent’s oblivion ring that is oblivion ringing your oblivion ring?

Yes, it will return your first o ring to the field letting you exile something else.

Note that if there is nothing else on the battlefield you MUST exile your own o ring releasing your opponent's o ring. This must then also exile something and the only legal target will be your 1st o ring. This will release your other o ring which will exile your opponent's o ring, which will exile your 2nd o ring which....
Basically if there's no other targets 3 o rings cause an infinite loop and the game will end in a draw unless a player can destroy one of the o rings.


On a more serious note I have another set of cards in mind experimenting with an idea of cheap, awkward to use cards. Here's the one I had first:

"Far Realm Hand
Instant - {B}
When Far Realm Hand is cast, if it isn't exiled, counter it.
Destroy target creature. Put a X/X zombie token onto the battlefield tapped, where X is the target creature's converted mana cost.

The hand brings the essence of the world it reaches from. If it reaches from the realm of life, it brings life. If it reaches from the realm of oblivion..."

Did I word that right?

I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to do here. So when I cast this, I get to either exile it, which means it won't resolve, or counter it, also stopping it resolving. The only way you can resolve the effect is via coping the spell, is that what you are attempting? Or do you just want to have the spell exile itself instead of going to the graveyard when used?

[Narkis]

Can you oblivion ring your opponent’s oblivion ring that is oblivion ringing your oblivion ring?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGXG5rNe_tI

[enderlord99]

Can you oblivion ring your opponent’s oblivion ring that is oblivion ringing your oblivion ring?

On a more serious note I have another set of cards in mind experimenting with an idea of cheap, awkward to use cards. Here's the one I had first:

"Far Realm Hand
Instant - {B}
When Far Realm Hand is cast, if it isn't exiled, counter it.
Destroy target creature. Put a X/X zombie token onto the battlefield tapped, where X is the target creature's converted mana cost.

The hand brings the essence of the world it reaches from. If it reaches from the realm of life, it brings life. If it reaches from the realm of oblivion..."

Did I word that right?

I have a revised version, which is more expensive, but also slightly stronger than what you meant to do (because it also triggers off of attempts to counter it); it's also reworded to do what it's supposed to:

"Far Realm Hand
Instant - {B}{B}{U}
If Far Realm Hand would be countered or exiled by another spell, or by an activated or triggered ability of a permanent, it resolves instead. Otherwise, counter it.

Destroy target creature. Put a X/X zombie token onto the battlefield tapped, where X is the target creature's converted mana cost. Exile Far Realm Hand.

The hand brings the essence of the world it reaches from. If it reaches from the realm of life, it brings life. If it reaches from the realm of oblivion..."

[Boci]

Yes, it will return your first o ring to the field letting you exile something else.

Note that if there is nothing else on the battlefield you MUST exile your own o ring releasing your opponent's o ring. This must then also exile something and the only legal target will be your 1st o ring. This will release your other o ring which will exile your opponent's o ring, which will exile your 2nd o ring which....
Basically if there's no other targets 3 o rings cause an infinite loop and the game will end in a draw unless a player can destroy one of the o rings.

Wow, and it has actually happened



I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to do here.

Then I didn't do it well. It was meant to be only castable by flashback or card exile that allows you to cast the exiled cards.


I have a revised version, which is more expensive, but also slightly stronger than what you meant to do (because it also triggers off of attempts to counter it); it's also reworded to do what it's supposed to:

"Far Realm Hand
Instant - {B}{B}{U}
If Far Realm Hand would be countered or exiled by another spell, or by an activated or triggered ability of a permanent, it resolves instead. Otherwise, counter it.

Destroy target creature. Put a X/X zombie token onto the battlefield tapped, where X is the target creature's converted mana cost. Exile Far Realm Hand.

The hand brings the essence of the world it reaches from. If it reaches from the realm of life, it brings life. If it reaches from the realm of oblivion..."

That is sort of what I was aiming for, a powerful spells that is a PITA to cast. This is different, as the original one needing you to be already exiled (so snap caster to give it flashback, or the the ability to exile cards from your library or cast) in order to resolve, at least that is how I intended it. However haven't you gone too far in the other direction? It seems like it should at least be UB. Or is the drawback not that big of an issue?

On an only slightly related note, can this work:

Host of the Maggot Swarm
Instant - {B/G} (green mana)
Target creature spell enters the battlefield with an host counter on it. At the start of its controller's upkeep, if the creature has a host counter on it, put a -1/-1 counter on it. When the creature enters the graveyard, put an X/X maggot token onto the battlefield with trample, where X was the number of -1/-1 counters on the creature when it died.

[Androgeus]

Then I didn't do it well. It was meant to be only castable by flashback or card exile that allows you to cast the exiled cards.

I'm with you now. One way to do this would be to rework Phage's ability. Something like this "When you cast ~, if you cast it from your hand, counter it" would work. You could also just do the obvious things and just use Haakon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122045)'s ability to limit the zones from which it can be cast.

[Boci]

I'm with you now. One way to do this would be to rework Phage's ability. Something like this "When you cast ~, if you cast it from your hand, counter it" would work. You could also just do the obvious things and just use Haakon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122045)'s ability to limit the zones from which it can be cast.

That is better, I got caught up on the whole exile thing when there was an easier way to do is. Do does this work, and is cheap enough with that draw back?

"Far Realm Hand
Instant - {B}
When you cast Far Realm Hand, if you cast it from your hand, counter it.

Destroy target creature. Put a X/X zombie token onto the battlefield tapped, where X is the target creature's converted mana cost. Exile Far Realm Hand.

The hand brings the essence of the world it reaches from. If it reaches from the realm of life, it brings life. If it reaches from the realm of death..."

I don't think I'd use Haakon's text, because that sounds like it would be a bit too easy if you could automatically cast it. Although then you do still need to get it into the graveyard.

[enderlord99]

That is better, I got caught up on the whole exile thing when there was an easier way to do is. Do does this work, and is cheap enough with that draw back?

"Far Realm Hand
Instant - {B}
When you cast Far Realm Hand, if you cast it from your hand, counter it.

Destroy target creature. Put a X/X zombie token onto the battlefield tapped, where X is the target creature's converted mana cost. Exile Far Realm Hand.

The hand brings the essence of the world it reaches from. If it reaches from the realm of life, it brings life. If it reaches from the realm of death..."

I don't think I'd use Haakon's text, because that sounds like it would be a bit too easy if you could automatically cast it. Although then you do still need to get it into the graveyard.

That seems pretty good. I'm still not sure about the name, though.

[Sith_Happens]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGXG5rNe_tI

Magic Online unable to handle drawn games; news at 11.


On an only slightly related note, can this work:

Host of the Maggot Swarm
Instant - {B/G} (green mana)
Target creature spell enters the battlefield with an host counter on it. At the start of its controller's upkeep, if the creature has a host counter on it, put a -1/-1 counter on it. When the creature enters the graveyard, put an X/X maggot token onto the battlefield with trample, where X was the number of -1/-1 counters on the creature when it died.

Affecting the way a permanent spell enters the battlefield is awkward to parse. Here's how I'm pretty sure it needs to be worded, along with some minor syntax improvements to the rest of the card:

"If target creature spell becomes a creature, that creature enters the battlefield with a host counter on it. At the beginning of its controller's upkeep, if the creature has a host counter on it, put a -1/-1 counter on it. When that creature dies, put an X/X black and green Maggot
creature token with trample onto the battlefield, where X is the number of -1/-1 counters on the creature."

Technically works, but so did the original version of Elspeth, Knight Errant and WotC still decided to introduce emblems for bookkeeping's sake. Personally I'd just make this card an aura.


That seems pretty good. I'm still not sure about the name, though.

How about Call of the Far Realm? Since the idea is (presumably) that you're turning a creature into a twisted reflection of itself. Incidentally, going by that fluff I'd have the creature be exiled and the token be a Horror rather than a Zombie.

[enderlord99]

How about Call of the Far Realm? Since the idea is (presumably) that you're turning a creature into a twisted reflection of itself. Incidentally, going by that fluff I'd have the creature be exiled and the token be a Horror rather than a Zombie.

That still includes the term "Far Realm." I'll let Afroakuma explain the problem with that.

[Boci]

That still includes the term "Far Realm." I'll let Afroakuma explain the problem with that.

That it's non far realm centric, since the far realm presumably don't call itself that, preferring instead the "pretty bloody near realm"?

Having a card name be centric to a single culture though isn't a new thing.


Affecting the way a permanent spell enters the battlefield is awkward to parse. Here's how I'm pretty sure it needs to be worded, along with some minor syntax improvements to the rest of the card:

"If target creature spell becomes a creature, that creature enters the battlefield with a host counter on it. At the beginning of its controller's upkeep, if the creature has a host counter on it, put a -1/-1 counter on it. When that creature dies, put an X/X black and green Maggot
creature token with trample onto the battlefield, where X is the number of -1/-1 counters on the creature."

Technically works, but so did the original version of Elspeth, Knight Errant and WotC still decided to introduce emblems for bookkeeping's sake. Personally I'd just make this card an aura.

Thanks for cleaning that up. I guess it could work as an aura, but I liked the fluff of needing to infect the creature in the moment of its creation. I could up the price to {B/G}{B/G} and change it to "If a creature would enter the battlefield this turn, it does so with a host counter on it".


How about Call of the Far Realm? Since the idea is (presumably) that you're turning a creature into a twisted reflection of itself. Incidentally, going by that fluff I'd have the creature be exiled and the token be a Horror rather than a Zombie.

Good idea. Where do horrors come from in magic?

[Ionbound]

Umm...Phyrexia? The Eldrazi? Those are the big two I can think of. But yeah, I don't see why Call of the Far Realm wouldn't work, even if it's just something the planar locals believe in along the lines of the Theros gods.

[Duck999]

Horrors pop up everywhere, but there seem to be a lot in older sets, before the card border changed.
This is from a quick gatherer search.

[ChaosOS]

Horrors are primarily phyrexian, of who we saw a lot of before the border change but after Invasion we didn't see a whole lot of them until they popped back up for Scars of Mirrodin

[Shadow of the Sun]

If you keep it a zombie, you can make it an in-flavour with current Magic: the Gathering 'Call of the Dark Realms', which has already been used for reanimation spells and zombies and the like.

[enderlord99]

I've also come up with a theoretical card:

Chill to the Bone {S}{S}{S}

Instant

Tap target creature.

If {U} was spent to cast Chill to the Bone, that creature doesn't untap during its controller's net upkeep. If {B} was spent to cast Chill to the Bone, put a -1/-1 counter on that creature. (Do both if {U}{B} was spent.)

[ChaosOS]

I've also come up with a theoretical card:

Chill to the Bone {S}{S}{S}

Instant

Tap target creature.

If {U} was spent to cast Chill to the Bone, that creature doesn't untap during its controller's net upkeep. If {B} was spent to cast Chill to the Bone, put a -1/-1 counter on that creature. (Do both if {U}{B} was spent.)

Assuming the S is {U/B} (By the way it's called hybrid mana) this seems like a reasonable card power-level wise for a common, my issue is that tapping creatures isn't in black's part of the color pie. The only two examples are Midnight Charm, from the color pie bending Planar Shift, and Stabbing Pain, which was in an older core set when MaRo definitely had not been as aware of how much color pie warping would go on in sets not under his direct supervision.

[enderlord99]

Assuming the S is {U/B} (By the way it's called hybrid mana) this seems like a reasonable card power-level wise for a common, my issue is that tapping creatures isn't in black's part of the color pie. The only two examples are Midnight Charm, from the color pie bending Planar Shift, and Stabbing Pain, which was in an older core set when MaRo definitely had not been as aware of how much color pie warping would go on in sets not under his direct supervision.

{S} is snow mana, which can be any color as long as it comes from a snow permanent. It's entirely possible that neither {U} nor {B} will be spent, but in such a case, it would just act as a severely overpriced "tap target creature."

[Brackenlord]

{S} is snow mana, which can be any color as long as it comes from a snow permanent. It's entirely possible that neither {U} nor {B} will be spent, but in such a case, it would just act as a severely overpriced "tap target creature."

What is the color for that?

It would probably need a line like Ghostfire and the pacts originally had.

[ChaosOS]

See, this is what I get for not having played with Snow Mana, I forget the notation. Ok, so that's just a bizarre card that I'm not quite sure the whole point, but it seems fine power level wise and color pie wise (A mono black spell tapping is weird, a colorless spell tapping is not so weird)

EDIT: Technically, you only need a color indicator now, not a "~ is purple" line.

[Landis963]

{S} is snow mana, which can be any color as long as it comes from a snow permanent. It's entirely possible that neither {U} nor {B} will be spent, but in such a case, it would just act as a severely overpriced "tap target creature."

"Tap target creature" is usually blue, IIRC. I'd make the spell U base, possibly 2U, and include the line "use only snow mana to cast this spell."

Here's my take:
Chill to the Bone 2U (3)
Instant - Snow
(Use only snow mana to cast this spell)
Tap X target creatures, where X is the amount of blue mana spent to cast this spell. Put a -1/-1 counter on those creatures for every B that was spent to cast this spell.

[Khay]

Semi-relatedly, I'm really sad Coldsnap went over so poorly. Snow mana is the best way I can see to get that "one-block-only sixth colour" thing to work (think spells with mana costs along the line of 2S) but now I can't really see them ever bringing it back.

Also, interestingly, there's totally a precedent for {S} granting (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/95.html) tap abilities to colours that don't get them normally.

[Lea Plath]

Thanks for the feedback. This all sounds right down my alley.

There is a competitive legacy werewolf tribal deck. Basically you drop cards that stop people casting spells by denying them mana, then let your werewolves transform and go to town.

I still think they should have printed this

Moon-Crazed Savage 1RR
Creature - Human Werewolf
At the beginning of each upkeep, if no spells were cast last turn, transform Moon-Crazed Savage.
3/2
///
Blood-Moon Howler
Creature - Werewolf
Nonbasic lands are Mountains.
At the beginning of each upkeep, if a player cast two or more spells last turn, transform Blood-Moon Howler.
4/3


Anyway, does anyone else find this. I'm so use to play competitive and good decks I can't do casual. Like, I'm tempted to rebuild my R/B Zombies deck from Isd just because it is the closest thing I have to a casual deck. I might just build a deck but set myself a rule of no more than 2 copies of a card.

[Sith_Happens]

That still includes the term "Far Realm." I'll let Afroakuma explain the problem with that.

You mean other than the fact that it's a D&D reference?:smallconfused:


Thanks for cleaning that up. I guess it could work as an aura, but I liked the fluff of needing to infect the creature in the moment of its creation. I could up the price to {B/G}{B/G} and change it to "If a creature would enter the battlefield this turn, it does so with a host counter on it".

The needing-to-target-the-creature-as-it's-cast thing can still work (by modifying the wording from Animate Dead), the reason I'd make it an aura is because Wizards specifically avoids having non-permanent spells or non-static abilities create ongoing effects, as demonstrated by the fact that emblems exist (hence my reference to Elspeth).

Here's what the wording would be as an aura:


Flash

Enchant creature spell

If enchanted creature spell becomes a creature, attach Host of the Maggot Swarm to it. Host of the Maggot Swarm loses "Enchant creature spell" and gains "Enchant creature."

Enchanted creature has "At the beginning of your upkeep, put a -1/-1 counter on this creature."

When enchanted creature dies, put an X/X black and green Maggot creature token with trample onto the battlefield, where X is the number of -1/-1 counters on enchanted creature.

The upside over the instant version is there's no possibility of having to remember what the host counter does without the card that created being viewable (e.g.- if it gets returned to your library), the downside is that the aura version is removable (though the -1/-1 counters it's given so far stay).


Anyway, does anyone else find this. I'm so use to play competitive and good decks I can't do casual.

I commented on this phenomenon last thread:


I've found that learning to build a good Magic deck is a lot like learning to sing. Once you know how, it's impossible to just pretend that you don't (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodToneDeaf).

That said, the suggested solution was to use a deck archetype that's no good competitively so that your competitive-level deckbuilding instincts work to bring that archetype up to your group's level rather than past it (kind of like how one of the best ways for an optimization-savvy D&D 3.5 player to fit in with a less savvy group is to pick a low-tier class).

[Lea Plath]

I think what I might do is rebuild RB zombies ala ISD with some tweaks. So 2 of a card at most. More tribal based. And I can't cheat like instead of 4 mortarpod, 2 and 2 goblin bombardment :P

[Boci]

So apparantly Fate Reforged is going to get an Emrakul with delve. Presumably right alongside a reprinted necropotence that gives you life for drawing cards instead of requiering you to pay it, a reprint of the origional moxxen that are now indestructable and a stone forge mystic with true steel paladin's ability tacked on (minus the metal craft requirement. Its now automatically).

Or maybe I misunderstood Maikel Leenhouwers was saying: http://www.magicspoiler.com/fate-reforged/

[Duck999]

No way that Emrakul is going to be a real card. It is exactly the same as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, but Aeons was replaced by Fate, and they added Delve. Also, the picture is from Gravitational shift.

[Boci]

This is the sight they apparantly got the story from. Not sure if its the onion of MtG.
http://themeadery.org/articles/wizards-grossly-overreacts-drops-banhammer-on-entire-khans-of-tarkir-block

Yeah, magic onion is seeming pretty likely. Never mind. People on the thread seemed to be taking it seriously, but then the internet likes to do that.

[Narkis]

The "spoiled" cards are obvious fakes, using art we already know from other sources (like the aforementioned Gravity Shift).

And the Meadery is MtG's Onion. I've seen people fall for their stories before.

[Snowbluff]

Giving Emrakul Delve is a funny one, if you ask me.

Also, my gods deck nears completion. Soon. (tm)

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah, magic onion is seeming pretty likely.

That's a bit of an understatement considering the article in question is "Entire Khans block banned in Modern and Legacy."

[Boci]

That's a bit of an understatement considering the article in question is "Entire Khans block banned in Modern and Legacy."

I have no idea how MtG's business model works. For all I know banning a block from Modern or Legacy would have a negligible impact on their sales and could even increase them, if say, the casual market makes up 90% of their revenue. I didn't give it much thought. |It was the language of the article that tipped me off (well, that and the idea that delve would be given to Emrakul).

[Duck999]

I have no idea how MtG's business model works. For all I know banning a block from Modern or Legacy would have a negligible impact on their sales and could even increase them, if say, the casual market makes up 90% of their revenue. I didn't give it much thought. |It was the language of the article that tipped me off (well, that and the idea that delve would be given to Emrakul).

The sales have nothing to do with it. There would be no way an entire block would be banned. That many cards cannot be that good. That would be a few hundred cards banned, including the ones that are only decent. Also, it says Mark Rosewater has a vision...
I quote:
"THIS DOESN’T SURPRISE ME IN THE LEAST,” said a notably composed Mark Rosewater. “THE MORNING WE STARTED DEVELOPING KHANS, I SLIPPED IN THE SHOWER AND HAD A GLIMPSE INTO THE FUTURE. SO, I ALREADY KNEW IT WAS GOING TO GET BANNED BEFORE IT WAS EVEN CREATED."

[Boci]

The sales have nothing to do with it. There would be no way an entire block would be banned.

Shrug, good tat you know that, I didn't. I only got into magic in the Return to Ravnica block and I never payed tournaments much attention, certainly not deliberately. For all I knew this wasn't the first time WotC had banned an entire block.


Also, it says Mark Rosewater has a vision...
I quote:
"THIS DOESN’T SURPRISE ME IN THE LEAST,” said a notably composed Mark Rosewater. “THE MORNING WE STARTED DEVELOPING KHANS, I SLIPPED IN THE SHOWER AND HAD A GLIMPSE INTO THE FUTURE. SO, I ALREADY KNEW IT WAS GOING TO GET BANNED BEFORE IT WAS EVEN CREATED."

I know. Hence why I said it was the wording of the article that tipped me off, not the premise of a banned bloc.

[Mystic Muse]

So, my Pack To Power project is going well so far. Sold the foil treasure cruise for $19, and am debating what to buy that would act as good trade fodder, but retain its value. I'm not really interested in Standard legal things. I could probably get something worth $25-$28 on Ebay, especially if I did more incremental things.

Anybody have any advice?

[Androgeus]

I know. Hence why I said it was the wording of the article that tipped me off, not the premise of a banned bloc.

The most broken sets in Magic aren't totally banned, so banning the whole set that made like 2 cards that affected legacy is an entirely daft premise.

Just to double up the fakeness of the Emrakul card, while we are going back it time we are only going back to about the time of Ugin's death. This will have happened at least a little while after Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri sealed the Eldrazi on Zendikar and thus Emrakul can not be floating around Zendikar.

[Snowbluff]

Also, it says Mark Rosewater has a vision...
I quote:
"THIS DOESN’T SURPRISE ME IN THE LEAST,” said a notably composed Mark Rosewater. “THE MORNING WE STARTED DEVELOPING KHANS, I SLIPPED IN THE SHOWER AND HAD A GLIMPSE INTO THE FUTURE. SO, I ALREADY KNEW IT WAS GOING TO GET BANNED BEFORE IT WAS EVEN CREATED."

This only adds to the legitimacy of the article. :smalltongue:

[Boci]

The most broken sets in Magic aren't totally banned, so banning the whole set that made like 2 cards that affected legacy is an entirely daft premise.

I know, you are only the third person to tell me this. I'm not doubting you, I was just saying it isn't obvious to someone who has never payed much attention to tournaments.

[Somensjev]

so, i designed a budget modern deck that i want to buy (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/shattered-realms/) (that my friends would never verse, but it's for fnm). and i'm having some issues with it, specifically it's speed


it's meant to pull of a specific combo (liquimetal coating + splinter), which can be hard cast by turn four. however, playtesting it for a bit, i'm lucky to pull it off by turn 10 :smallsigh:

would anyone know of something like cheap (mana and money-wise) green card draw, or green tutors?

or any way that i could pick out the two parts of the combo faster, while staying mono-green, and preferably under 20-30 dollars

[Shadow of the Sun]

so, i designed a budget modern deck that i want to buy (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/shattered-realms/) (that my friends would never verse, but it's for fnm). and i'm having some issues with it, specifically it's speed


it's meant to pull of a specific combo (liquimetal coating + splinter), which can be hard cast by turn four. however, playtesting it for a bit, i'm lucky to pull it off by turn 10 :smallsigh:

would anyone know of something like cheap (mana and money-wise) green card draw, or green tutors?

or any way that i could pick out the two parts of the combo faster, while staying mono-green, and preferably under 20-30 dollars

Ancient Stirrings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193437) would probably help.

[Somensjev]

i've actually made the deck considerably faster (and more expensive) since i posted that.

it can now consistently keep my opponent (nearly)/landless at almost all times :smallbiggrin:

i'll order all the cards i need at some point, and see how it fares at FNM

[IcemanJRC]

i've actually made the deck considerably faster (and more expensive) since i posted that.

it can now consistently keep my opponent (nearly)/landless at almost all times :smallbiggrin:

i'll order all the cards i need at some point, and see how it fares at FNM

Care to share the new list, that seems dubious so I'm wondering how you pulled it off.

[Somensjev]

Care to share the new list, that seems dubious so I'm wondering how you pulled it off.

i'm continually updating the deck that the link is sending you to, so if you click it, it'll have all the latest changes, and you can playtest it

but if you don't want to go to that site


2x ancient stirrings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193437)
4x axebane guardian (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253556)
2x conjurer's closet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376281)
2x fog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370633)
18x forest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389526)
4x ghost quarter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389534)
2x hornet queen (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383268)
4x liquimetal coating (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389578)
4x mwonvuli acid-moss (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=118888)
4x overgrown battlement (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193610)
4x plow under (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45450)
2x splinter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74615)
4x tel-jilad justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50190)
2x terastodon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389715)
2x terrifying presence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373380)

between turns 3 and 6, i start destroying lands, at a rate of 1-2 per turn
after turn 7-ish, i can destroy three or more lands per turn

as far as i can tell, i've got around a 60-80% chance of keeping my opponent at 3 lands or less, assuming they play one every turn


of course, the deck still has issues, but no more issues than any other deck, so i think it's fine for now


edit: some random information i've found from playtesting

the first chance i can splinter some one, is, i believe, 4th turn, it may however be third. the reason i use splinter in this deck is because of an interesting interaction between it and liquimetal coating

liquimetal coating = Tap: target permanent becomes an artifact until end of turn
splinter = exile target artifact. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that artifact and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.


this means, that you turn something into an artifact, let's say, a swamp. then you exile that swamp, and every card in their hand, deck, and grave named "swamp"

a mono-coloured deck, having all but 2-3 of their respective basic lands exiled, is nearly an instant game-over in most cases

the first chance i can destroy a land is 3rd turn, this method required two cards working together, howerer there's 2 different ways to achieve it. one gives me a defender, the other let's me scry two, this makes the splinter combination more likely to occur

further edit: if the game manages to get past the 7-8 turn mark, i can usually start either destroying ridiculous amounts of non-land permanents, or summon up a swarm of hornet tokens


edit: the only certain problem i see with it, is that it has no way around removal/conters

[Androgeus]

Your main combo is with splinter and you are only running 2. This seems like you aren't going to get your combo off very often.

[Somensjev]

Your main combo is with splinter and you are only running 2. This seems like you aren't going to get your combo off very often.

originally it was centred around splinter, but the deck wasn't quite working out properly in playtests, so i messed around with the numbers of certain cards until i found something i was happy with
the deck is no longer centred around splinter, but seeing it cast is always a plus.

since the deck now has a total 18 cards that destroy lands, i figured i wouldn't need as many splinters, as casting multiples of it



however, i'm going to test it at different amounts of liquimetals and splinters, and see which ones playtest the best

[Snowbluff]

So, I've been talking to Sjlver lately. We've made the next set.

BIPRWB of OIBUWE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StylisticSuck)

This set features 4 color "splotches." Each of these splotches is designed for fighting the color omitted. For example, the Blue Green White Red splotch, Blark, has creatures that have protection from creatures with Fear, Intimidation, and Deathtouch.

So, we also made up a new mechanic to go with this set. Playing 4 colors is hard, so we thought we'd make it easier. Also, we are dissatisfied with Morph. We felt that cards with morph weren't really worth it, and cards that revealed morphs were not really worth it. So we made a new mechanic: Rifts.

You put a card in an unstable time rift that is a 2/2 token. The card may be played (at instant speed), at it's CMC.

How is this different? Rift wouldn't be a creature ability. It would be a part of a sorcery or instant. Now, this has present a few problem. It was originally creatures, but you would have to make sure the thing is a creature, but to do so, you would have to reveal it. To avoid play errors and tomfoolery, we just made it any card.

Example card:

Temporal Wedge {B/U} {G/R}
Sorcery

Suspend 3

Return target permanent to its owner's hand.

Rift (Places a 2/2 Rift creature token onto the field with "{X}, Sacrifice this Rift: Play imprinted card, where X is the imprinted card's converted mana cost," then imprint a card onto it by exiling the card from your hand face down. You make look at the imprinted card.")

[enderlord99]

How effective would it be to make a Commander deck focused on a combination of a bunch of slivers and tons of changelings, and led by Korona, False God?

[Bucky]

Not as effective as an identical deck led by Sliver Hivelord, Sliver Overlord, or Reaper King instead.

[enderlord99]

Not as effective as an identical deck led by Sliver Hivelord, Sliver Overlord, or Reaper King instead.

Really? The whole point of the deck is that your changelings benefit from Korona every turn (no matter what subtypes your opponents choose) whereas your opponents' creatures only benefit on their own turns. Sliver Hivelord and Sliver Overlord would both be included in the deck, of course, but I see no reason for Reaper King to be used at all...

[Duck999]

What about Sliver Legion?

[Androgeus]

but I see no reason for Reaper King to be used at all...

if you are running mainly changeling then reaper king turns a very large portion of your deck into vindicates with bodies attached.

[enderlord99]

if you are running mainly changeling then reaper king turns a very large portion of your deck into vindicates with bodies attached.

And if your opponents' permanents all have hexproof, you have to destroy one of your own.

Still, I suppose it's a good enough choice for inclusion.

[Lea Plath]

So I am looking at playing Jeskai Combo on friday, probably the Nissa-less build from the PT. I like the satyrs.

Anyone playing the deck at the moment?

[Segev]

In this post, I reach for straws in ways to make a couple of cards even marginally useful.

First off, we have Meandering Towershell, which is a rare with 5/9 with islandwalk, but has the "benefit" of exiling itself when it attacks, only to return later, on your NEXT turn to enter the battlefield tapped and attacking. The flavor is interesting (it's so slow it takes forever to get there), but the timing of the exile and return seem to render it just plain bad, since you're still paying enough mana that 5/9 is only marginally better than "good."

So far, the only use I've been able to come up with is potentially the Kheru Lich Lord, which lets you spend 2B to randomly return a creature from your graveyard. The Lich Lord give said creature flying, trample, and haste, but exiles it if it leaves the battlefield for any reason and at the end of the turn. With the Towershell, you could use the Haste to attack immediately, and then its own exile effect would not conflict with the Lich Lord's, but would still return it next turn.

However, not only is the Lich Lord random in what it brings back, but the Towershell's return is a turn later, so even if exiling and returning didn't strip off all effects not printed on the card itself, the trample and flying would have expired. I'm not sure that combo is anything more than an amusing notion.

Maybe it's useful because it makes hitting it with negative effects not that great? Nothing would stick through its self-exile. But you can't use it to save it from destruction, because it's only when it attacks, so even that's kinda meh.


The other one is Embodiment of Spring. On the one hand, it's a U for a 0/3, and in theory the 1G(T)+sacrifice is both mana ramp and color-fixing. However, it's color-fixing where you've already had to provide two different colors, and it takes at least two turns of waiting. It is deck-thinning, a little...but the Burnished Hart is almost as good and exchanges having one more mana cost for having no color requirements. Is there reason to play this over, say, a Sylvan Caryatid? Or even a Voyaging Satyr or a Kiora's Follower?

The one "trick" I have thought of with this one would be to combine it with Athreos, and there are obvious problems with that (not the least of which being that Athreos costs two more colors). But at least that would make sacrificing it either cost your opponent 3 life, or put it back into your hand for re-use in land fetching. Still, the Burnished Hart does the same.


How would you guys make these cards useful? Can they be made useful? Embodiment at least has the excuse of being Common, so it's allowed to be a little on the weak side. But the Towershell is Rare!

[IcemanJRC]

So I am looking at playing Jeskai Combo on friday, probably the Nissa-less build from the PT. I like the satyrs.

Anyone playing the deck at the moment?

Played it for a few weeks, honestly it's pretty bad. It folds to interaction and takes forever to get going, but if you think you've got it solved then go ahead and try it. Of note is Ivan Jen's version from Star City Oakland, a heroic aggro deck with an infinite combo available. It's got a better game plan but it's still not very robust and it plays different. My recommendation if you like the Caryatid version is to trim down on Commune With The Gods in favor of your other dig spells, you end up pitching combo pieces too often so it's a one step forward two steps back kinda deal. Also, Tormod's Crypt is good as a one of for your artifact and the rest should probably be Briber's purses.


In this post, I reach for straws in ways to make a couple of cards even marginally useful.

First off, we have Meandering Towershell, which is a rare with 5/9 with islandwalk, but has the "benefit" of exiling itself when it attacks, only to return later, on your NEXT turn to enter the battlefield tapped and attacking. The flavor is interesting (it's so slow it takes forever to get there), but the timing of the exile and return seem to render it just plain bad, since you're still paying enough mana that 5/9 is only marginally better than "good."

So far, the only use I've been able to come up with is potentially the Kheru Lich Lord, which lets you spend 2B to randomly return a creature from your graveyard. The Lich Lord give said creature flying, trample, and haste, but exiles it if it leaves the battlefield for any reason and at the end of the turn. With the Towershell, you could use the Haste to attack immediately, and then its own exile effect would not conflict with the Lich Lord's, but would still return it next turn.

However, not only is the Lich Lord random in what it brings back, but the Towershell's return is a turn later, so even if exiling and returning didn't strip off all effects not printed on the card itself, the trample and flying would have expired. I'm not sure that combo is anything more than an amusing notion.

Maybe it's useful because it makes hitting it with negative effects not that great? Nothing would stick through its self-exile. But you can't use it to save it from destruction, because it's only when it attacks, so even that's kinda meh.


The other one is Embodiment of Spring. On the one hand, it's a U for a 0/3, and in theory the 1G(T)+sacrifice is both mana ramp and color-fixing. However, it's color-fixing where you've already had to provide two different colors, and it takes at least two turns of waiting. It is deck-thinning, a little...but the Burnished Hart is almost as good and exchanges having one more mana cost for having no color requirements. Is there reason to play this over, say, a Sylvan Caryatid? Or even a Voyaging Satyr or a Kiora's Follower?

The one "trick" I have thought of with this one would be to combine it with Athreos, and there are obvious problems with that (not the least of which being that Athreos costs two more colors). But at least that would make sacrificing it either cost your opponent 3 life, or put it back into your hand for re-use in land fetching. Still, the Burnished Hart does the same.


How would you guys make these cards useful? Can they be made useful? Embodiment at least has the excuse of being Common, so it's allowed to be a little on the weak side. But the Towershell is Rare!

Towershell is just bad, HOWEVER, if you are interested in using it anyway. Bearer of the Heavans dies, total wipe, Towershell meanders back in to kill them slowly and painfully.

Embodiment of Spring is intended for limited, however it is a great option if you care about lands more than mana, such as the Dictate of Karametra + Villainous Wealth control deck.

[CantigThimble]

So my friends and I put together a cube and it is pretty awesome. However I'm past the honeymoon phase and I'm looking for ways to improve it. The cube is for multiplayer, we originally put in some aggressive cards in case we wanted to try 1v1 some time but 3 weeks and 9-10 drafts later no one has even considered it so that needs to go. One major problem has been the absurd power of board wipes and clone effects. They shut down the game for creature decks and we've had as many as 3 blue control decks battling it out while 2 more green decks died in the background. So that's getting kicked down a notch. One thing I need some help with is low curve cards that matter. The Afro creatures are getting cut as well as some sweepers that previously rendered them irrelevant so I need to find some cards that are cast before turn 4 that matter in multiplayer.

Options so far seem to be:
-Elves/Myr
-etb triggers like blood seeker/essence warden
-growing creatures like bloodhall ooze/quirion dryad
-Utility creatures like spellshapers/advocates/guildmages/grand abolisher effects.

Tribal cards won't really work since it's a 465 card cube and we would need to devote too much space to make them work.

I'd like to hear any particular suggestions, though my budget is fairly low so unless someone in my group already has the card and it costs more than a dollar or two I probably won't get it. I'm confident that I can get plenty of good tier 2 cards for less than a dollar though.

[houlio]

So my friends and I put together a cube and it is pretty awesome. However I'm past the honeymoon phase and I'm looking for ways to improve it. The cube is for multiplayer, we originally put in some aggressive cards in case we wanted to try 1v1 some time but 3 weeks and 9-10 drafts later no one has even considered it so that needs to go. One major problem has been the absurd power of board wipes and clone effects. They shut down the game for creature decks and we've had as many as 3 blue control decks battling it out while 2 more green decks died in the background. So that's getting kicked down a notch. One thing I need some help with is low curve cards that matter. The Afro creatures are getting cut as well as some sweepers that previously rendered them irrelevant so I need to find some cards that are cast before turn 4 that matter in multiplayer.

Options so far seem to be:
-Elves/Myr
-etb triggers like blood seeker/essence warden
-growing creatures like bloodhall ooze/quirion dryad
-Utility creatures like spellshapers/advocates/guildmages/grand abolisher effects.

Tribal cards won't really work since it's a 465 card cube and we would need to devote too much space to make them work.

I'd like to hear any particular suggestions, though my budget is fairly low so unless someone in my group already has the card and it costs more than a dollar or two I probably won't get it. I'm confident that I can get plenty of good tier 2 cards for less than a dollar though.

Some good options for creatures I've seen in the cube I play in have been the "magi of" (magus of the moat, magus of the moon, the arena, the disk, future, the library, and the vineyard for my playgroup), mother of runes, some of the specters (hypnotic and nightveil mostly), boggart ram-gang, zozu the punisher, eidolon of the great revel, hero of oxid ridge, orcish lumberjack, etched champion, and lodestone golem have all been good for limiting the ability of control decks or making non-control decks more viable. We play 1v1's, so maybe their playability will be a little worse for you, but those seem decent enough. Good equipment also really makes the creatures in our cube good. You probably aren't going to play with every sword, batterskull and jitte, but even things like runechanter's pike, lashwrithe, bonesplitter, whispersilk cloak, grafted wargear, fireshrieker, loxodon warhammer and all the other tier 2 ones can really beef up almost any deck that wins by turning guys sideways.

If you want your cube to be more diverse, maybe playing with some strange off-color effects wouldn't be that bad either. Adding restock and/or harmonize to green, mana tithe and sunlance to white, dark ritual to black is awesome, and really helps out a lot of archetypes.

[Chen]

Really? The whole point of the deck is that your changelings benefit from Korona every turn (no matter what subtypes your opponents choose) whereas your opponents' creatures only benefit on their own turns. Sliver Hivelord and Sliver Overlord would both be included in the deck, of course, but I see no reason for Reaper King to be used at all...

Sliver overlord is 7/7 compared to Karona's 3/3 (6/6 if you call Avatars as your creature type) for one less coloress mana. You do need 3 other slivers to make it break even in terms of the buff, but it has the upside of NOT GIVING THE OPPONENT YOUR COMMANDER, on their turns. Even then I tend to prefer the Sliver Hivelord anyways. An indestructible commander along with all your other creatures being indestructible can be quite obnoxious.

[Duck999]

I got blue and red commander decks (planes walkers) as presents. I have yet to test them. However, when I scrap the decks, the blue planes walker is going into super friends when i make it.

Also, that blue command planes walker would be great as a super friend commander if it was not mono blue.:smallyuk:

[Androgeus]

Sliver overlord is 7/7 compared to Karona's 3/3 (6/6 if you call Avatars as your creature type) for one less coloress mana. You do need 3 other slivers to make it break even in terms of the buff, but it has the upside of NOT GIVING THE OPPONENT YOUR COMMANDER, on their turns. Even then I tend to prefer the Sliver Hivelord anyways. An indestructible commander along with all your other creatures being indestructible can be quite obnoxious.

Sliver Legion is probably the best sliver commander as it just tutors up a sliver to deal with the situation, and can combo with ameboid changeling to steal all your oppenents things.

[ChaosOS]

Legion is +X/+X, Overlord is tutor and mind control

[IthilanorStPete]

A note about Overlord - be careful about using it against opponents with Control Magic effects. That second ability can be a real killer when turned against you.

[unseenmage]

Anyone have any advice about how to kick a Human Horde deck up a notch?

My playgroup is used to playing against my singleton Dragon Horde deck. (We use my variant where if the Horde were to have access to an outlet for infinite mana it uses the outlet 1d20 times instead. Because does it really need more than 20 uses of Dragon Roost per turn?)
That one has Apocalypse and Worldfire and a few other nasty nasty surprises so its kind of Horde Magic on challenge mode.

I tried building a Human Horde as a gentler more classic Horde deck, less OP more grind through the minions. But it turned out to be woefully underpowered.

I did build it as a singleton too, which I now believe was a mistake. So I intend to edit it for multiple copies.
It also seems like we never topdeck enough token creatures. (The deck currently stands at 60 tokens to 40 real cards.)
More boardwipes could help too but I don't really want this thing to become Dragon Horde 2.0, then again without flying and with the vastly reduced average token toughness that is unlikely to happen.

Thoughts, suggestions, critiques?
(Can't post decklist right now but if there's interest enough I can try to put it up later tonight or Sunday.)

[mrcarter11]

Hi guys, I'm looking for some causal advice. I recently started to play Magic again after getting out around Onslaught. I know Khans is out right now, but I've never been a fan of tri color decks, so in search of 2 colored decks I happened across the Ravnica guilds. Are any of the guilds actually still playable compared to current decks in a causal environment. Any help or suggestions about the topic would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Blue Ghost]

Hi guys, I'm looking for some causal advice. I recently started to play Magic again after getting out around Onslaught. I know Khans is out right now, but I've never been a fan of tri color decks, so in search of 2 colored decks I happened across the Ravnica guilds. Are any of the guilds actually still playable compared to current decks in a causal environment. Any help or suggestions about the topic would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Return to Ravnica was just two years ago, and the power level of Magic has remained fairly constant, so certainly one could have a good guild deck. Of course, casual can mean many different things to different people, so you would want to get a feel for your playgroup before committing to a deck.

[mrcarter11]

Return to Ravnica was just two years ago, and the power level of Magic has remained fairly constant, so certainly one could have a good guild deck. Of course, casual can mean many different things to different people, so you would want to get a feel for your playgroup before committing to a deck.

I play at college and we have a pretty varied play group. I mean, some people are the type to bail on school and go compete in tournaments, some have decks that were made with 9th ed.. So it's a varied level of play. I was just wondering how competitive I could expect to be. And what guilds would be better/worse to look at.

[Lea Plath]

I play at college and we have a pretty varied play group. I mean, some people are the type to bail on school and go compete in tournaments, some have decks that were made with 9th ed.. So it's a varied level of play. I was just wondering how competitive I could expect to be. And what guilds would be better/worse to look at.

Are you talking about standard or just general casual play?


Anyway, I've just played at my first standard FNM since Gatecrash. 3-1 with Jeskai Ascendancy. I lost to Abzan, a supposed good match up due to lack of gas and a misplay where by I should have saved my rattleclaw mystic with a retraction helix but didn't. I then beat mono black control, rg monsters and rg monsters. The list was needing tweaks, like for example, I was using citp lands over a coast and strand and 3 fetches, 1 temple of plenty etc.

Might try the aggro version next time.

[mrcarter11]

General casual level of play. Standard as far as I'm away is only two blocks back.

[Svata]

Well, we had 20 people at FNM last night, and I made 4th with my abzan deck. We cut to the top 8 after 4 rounds, with me in 8th, and I beat the guy in first 2-1 through a mix of luck and skill. Then, after that hard-fought victory, I promptly got roflstomped by a guy who used to be on the pro tour. I ended up 3 and 3, with all my losses being rather quick, messy affairs, and my wins being drawn-out slugfests.

[Duck999]

General casual level of play. Standard as far as I'm away is only two blocks back.

Casual level of play generally means you shouldn't be playing decks that combo off before turn 5 usually. At least, as far as my experience goes. It is better to start safe, and play harder if your weaker decks are getting stomped. Just don't start out strong and weaken your decks. From experience, I know it is very annoying when someone brings a deck that is winning every time in what is supposed to be a small casual group of players. It may be fun for the one winning, but everyone else came for a chance to play fair, and they did not come expecting to have spent tons of time and money on their decks.