[3.5] Is Dread Necromancer rebuke an evil act?

[Grand Poobah]

Hi Giants,

First time poster, loooong time lurker.

I've come to the playground seeking enlightenment as my Google-fu has become weak.

In my current campaign the CN Dread Necromancer is trying to argue that rebuking undead isn't an evil act. His basis for this is that according to the PHB...


Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures (such as skeletons, zombies, ghosts, and vampires) by channelling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead, page 159).

... so it is the alignment of the cleric's deity that makes the act evil, which, as he doesn't worship an evil god, means rebuking isn't an evil act.

However, PHB also says this on page 159.


Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead. Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead.

Which seems to contradict the previous statement about it channelling the power of his faith.

PHB also says this on page 160


Even if a cleric is neutral, channelling positive energy is a good act and channelling negative energy is evil.

Which is what I'm basing my counter argument on especially as the DN ability says


Rebuke Undead (Su): A dread necromancer can rebuke or command undead creatures by channelling negative energy through her body. See the cleric class feature described on page 33 of the Player’s Handbook.

However, the DMG doesn't make any mention of the NEP having any sort of alignment or even enhancing spells with the evil descriptor so why would channelling it's energy be evil. Do the rules just assume that anyone rebuking or controlling undead must have evil intentions?

Hence I come to the playground to beseech the great and the good to impart their knowledge, wisdom and any references to rules I might not be aware of that will help me decide which side of the fence to come down on.

Thanks in advance

GP

[CyberThread]

Lets really simplify this. If a neutral cleric can do it and not have to worry about alignment, then it is not an evil act. What you do with the undead after that point is evil or not.

[Bad Wolf]

Negative energy and undead are inherently evil. For example, look at Hecate in Demigods and Deities. She's a protector of children and a hunter who takes care not to leave the forest bare, but because shes associated with undead, she's Neutral Evil.

[Necroticplague]

Negative energy and undead are inherently evil. For example, look at Hecate in Demigods and Deities. She's a protector of children and a hunter who takes care not to leave the forest bare, but because shes associated with undead, she's Neutral Evil.

Negative Energy isn't inherently evil. If that was true, the Inflict Wounds Line and Enervate would all have the [evil] tag. And the Negative Energy Plane would be evil aligned, and its Outsiders would have the [Evil]Subtype. None of the above are true; those spells have to descriptor, the NEP either has no alignment component or is actually mildly neutral aligned, and its Outsiders are Always True Neutral.

And as for undead, while most undead are evil, the act of controlling them is not,as shown by the fact Control undead doesn't have the [evil]descriptor,(though the act of creating them is, since the spells used have the [evil] descriptor). The listed sources don't say that channeling negative energy is an evil act, and the fact that neutral clerics can use it suggest such even more.

Thus, Rebuking Undead is, in and of itself, a neutral act, in that it doesn't act as a stain upon you, nor does it clean one.

[Divide by Zero]

The fluff rules on negative energy are wildly inconsistent. I suggest figuring out what the nature of negative energy is in your setting, and decide based on that. If it's inherently evil for some reason, then it's an evil act. If not, it's a neutral act.

[Gullintanni]

You've got the answer in your post. Per PHB 160, Channeling negative energy is an evil act. Negative energy is not inherently evil, but the act of channeling it is. Therefore, Rebuking Undead, an action that requires the channeling of negative energy, by RAW, is an evil act. That said, spells such as Enervate do not specifically "channel" negative energy, and are thus not evil.

The issue is that the PHB associates Evil with Negative Energy only in the context of channeling, so any act which specifically uses that language bears the consequences of that association.

That said, the act of Turning//Rebuking in and of itself is not IMO a sufficiently evil act to warrant a change in alignment. That particular distinction is left in the hands of the DM.

[sideswipe]

You've got the answer in your post. Per PHB 160, Channeling negative energy is an evil act. Negative energy is not inherently evil, but the act of channeling it is. Therefore, Rebuking Undead, an action that requires the channeling of negative energy, by RAW, is an evil act. That said, spells such as Enervate do not specifically "channel" negative energy, and are thus not evil.

The issue is that the PHB associates Evil with Negative Energy only in the context of channeling, so any act which specifically uses that language bears the consequences of that association.

That said, the act of Turning//Rebuking in and of itself is not IMO a sufficiently evil act to warrant a change in alignment. That particular distinction is left in the hands of the DM.

seconding this. whereas your DM may argue that it is an evil act, one or two evil acts does not produce an alignment shift in most cases. if it did then we would have fallen cleric, monk and barbarian adventurers every day.

imagine the CG barbarian going into a city, being asked to leave a private area and doing it then being told to pick up his litter and he does it, BAM LG ex-barbarian he is with no rage at all.

so only if your DM is completely anti-evil will he shift your alignment for telling a few zombies to sit. but if you tell them to go eat children.... you might have a problem.

[ShurikVch]

You've got the answer in your post. Per PHB 160, Channeling negative energy is an evil act. Negative energy is not inherently evil, but the act of channeling it is. Therefore, Rebuking Undead, an action that requires the channeling of negative energy, by RAW, is an evil act. That said, spells such as Enervate do not specifically "channel" negative energy, and are thus not evil.

The issue is that the PHB associates Evil with Negative Energy only in the context of channeling, so any act which specifically uses that language bears the consequences of that association.

That said, the act of Turning//Rebuking in and of itself is not IMO a sufficiently evil act to warrant a change in alignment. That particular distinction is left in the hands of the DM.
Death Delver (Heroes of Horror) is not an Evil PrC, yet can only rebuke
Also,
All lawful neutral clerics of Wee Jas (goddess of death and magic) rebuke or command undead. LN cleric of LN goddess...

[hamishspence]

Probably counts as a very very minor Evil act - enough to cause a multiclass Paladin/Death Delver to Fall - but no more than that.

[ThisIsZen]

Gonna second the suggestion to decide what the nature of the NEP is in your cosmology before making any decision here. The RAW is pretty clear on this - rebuking is an evil act, but that feels fairly arbitrary and runs counter to basically any other thing related to the NEP. Like others said, NEP Outsiders lack the [Evil] tag and Inflict Wounds etc. are also not [Evil] spells.

So if there IS something inherently evil about negative energy, then rebuking would be an evil act. If there isn't, I can't honestly see any reason why it should be and would recommend ignoring the RAW because it's arbitrary and contradicts everything else about negative energy.

[Divayth Fyr]

You've got the answer in your post. Per PHB 160, Channeling negative energy is an evil act. Negative energy is not inherently evil, but the act of channeling it is. Therefore, Rebuking Undead, an action that requires the channeling of negative energy, by RAW, is an evil act. That said, spells such as Enervate do not specifically "channel" negative energy, and are thus not evil. Evil with Negative Energy only in the context of channeling, so any act which specifically uses that language bears the consequences of that association.
Now, what do the Inflict spells do? Oh right

When laying your hand upon a creature, you channel negative energy
Touch of fatigue?

You channel negative energy through your touch
Touch of the Graveborn (Complete Mage)

Your melee touch attacks channel negative energy

There is also the Enervate Spell feat that doesn't add the [evil] descriptor to your spells and yet

Your spells channel negative energy

It seems channeling negative energy isn't an inherently evil act...

[Dalebert]

Lets really simplify this. If a neutral cleric can do it and not have to worry about alignment, then it is not an evil act.

I don't think there's any substance to this statement. The implication is that neutral characters can't do evil or good acts without threatening their alignment. Presumably they do both at different times depending on various motivations. If they're consistently doing one to the exclusion of the other, then it might eventually mean their chosen alignment isn't an accurate description of their real motivations.

[Sartharina]

It's an evil act, but it doesn't preclude a Neutral alignment.

Dread Necromancers cannot be Good.

[Grand Poobah]

Thanks for all the responses. Much appreciated.

Taking into account the NEP has no alignment as per the DMG and spells that 'channel' NE aren't given the 'evil' descriptor I'm going to disregard the PHB rule and say that channelling NE to rebuke is not an inherently evil act.

Cheers