Wizard Specialist, What two Schools of Magic would you give up?

[zarreff]

I personally have it down to two of these three that I would be willing to let go

Enchantment, Illusion, Conjuration

None of the other schools seem like good ideas to give up. Whats your opinion? What schools would you be willing to let go and why?

What school do you think is the most powerful/useful for a Wizard to have and would NEVER want to give up?

[Sir Chuckles]

I'd be most willing to give up Evocation, though the second school is always the hardest choice for me. Necromancy would likely be the second choice, though, depending on the specialization.
Conjuration, however, is the one that I would never give up.

Such opinions are likely to be parroted on this board.

[eggynack]

Enchantment, definitely, evocation, probably, necromancy, maybe, illusion, very rarely, everything else, never.

[YossarianLives]

Most likely necromancy and illusion. I would consider dropping abjuration though.

[torrasque666]

Conjuration and Transmutation. Why? Because I don't want to be a god. I like being a mortal.


Note: That reason is why I avoid playing casters like the plague.

[Jeff the Green]

Wait, are we talking about in real life again?

Either way, I'm never banning Enchantment again unless we're starting above level 13ish. I just discovered price of loyalty: it's charm person with no components beyond a focus (a platinum piece you give to the target) and that your target doesn't realize he was subjected to if he makes the save.

[AnonymousPepper]

Transmutation and Conjuration are two never-ever-give-up schools. Transmutation contains nearly all of the worthwhile buffs in the game plus the stupid-OP Polymorph line, plus arguably the best blasting spell in the game (yes, Disintegrate is transmutation!) and Conjuration is all of the teleportation spells, all of the summoning spells, many of the battlefield control spells, and also has some spectacular blasts in the Orb of X spells - which also penetrate AMFs, by the way.

Divination cannot be given up, of course, and even if you could, why would you?

Abjuration, Necromancy, and Illusion are all on the "I really would not advise giving these up" tier. Abjuration has some great buffs and all the Dispel spells, Necromancy has a small number of fiercely powerful weapons (namely, Enervation and Avasculate - the latter of which is my personal favorite spell... minus half HP, no save? yes please!), and Illusion is arguably the best defensive school out there.

Enchantment, however, has the downside that very many of its spells are [Mind-Affecting] and thus just about every mid to late game enemy that isn't humanoid - and some that are - just flat-out does not care about them. So at the height of your wizardly power, one of your schools just flat-out does not work.

And Evocation has the problem that it's kind of without a role. It has a few pretty unique spells to use, but for the most part its traditional role as the blasting school is completely overtaken by Conjuration, Transmutation, and Necromancy. As long as you have at least one of those schools - and if you ban either of the first two, you're doing it wrong, period - Evocation is simply not necessary.

My ban order is usually thus:


Enchantment: It's a bit of a toss-up between this and Evoc, but at least Evoc remains useful the entire game.
Evocation: Sorry, Conjuration just does your job better.
Illusion: My apologies, Illusion, you're a great school, but a lot of your stuff is rounds-per-level single target buffs and is negated by True Seeing.
Necromancy: Losing Avasculate in particular really, really sucks, but if it's gotten this far, it's between you and Abjuration and I'm not losing the Dispel series. Also, four schools is generally too much for me to stomach, and so I usually wouldn't get to this point. But if I did, this would be it.
Abjuration: If I'm required to ditch five schools to make a build work, it's absolutely not worth it and I'd basically never do it. That said, if for whatever reason I was forced to, I can at least theoretically summon monsters with Dispel SLAs because of Conjuration.
Transmutation: Ultimately, I can buy flight and intelligent use of Summon Monster can fill a lot of the holes that suddenly exist in my magic from six banned schools, and I can still make myself useful with Orb of X and Teleport if I keep Conjuration.
Conjuration: I'm not sure it's even possible to ban five schools, let alone six or seven. This is obviously the default last choice. Ban this and basically your only option to be useful is to go Arcane Disciple (Destiny) and Incantatrix and drop Persisted Choose Destiny along with judicious use of True Strike and the like with a Ring of Spell Sharing, and use Eternal Wands and Minor Schemas for everything else.

[eggynack]

Enchantment, however, has the downside that very many of its spells are [Mind-Affecting].
To be specific, I think it's either all of them, if you take the line describing the school in the PHB, "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells," as descriptive, or all but one of them, particularly freezing glance from frostburn, if it's prescriptive.

And Evocation has the problem that it's kind of without a role. It has a few pretty unique spells to use, but for the most part its traditional role as the blasting school is completely overtaken by Conjuration, Transmutation, and Necromancy. As long as you have at least one of those schools - and if you ban either of the first two, you're doing it wrong, period - Evocation is simply not necessary.

I've been rather liking the Tippy argument on the school's role lately, particularly that evocation is focused on defense. Stuff like resilient sphere, contingency, various force spells, wind wall, and others support that claim pretty well. Still worse than nearly every other school though.

[AnonymousPepper]

To be specific, I think it's either all of them, if you take the line describing the school in the PHB, "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells," as descriptive, or all but one of them, particularly freezing glance from frostburn, if it's prescriptive.

I've been rather likely the Tippy argument on the school's role lately, particularly that evocation is focused on defense. Stuff like resilient sphere, contingency, various force spells, wind wall, and others support that claim pretty well. Still worse than nearly every other school though.

Actually, you know what, you're right. I always think those spells are another school until somebody reminds me and then I immediately forget afterward. But Wall of X spells are mostly Conjuration and handle that BC role much better, and Celerity + (insert DDoor or Wall of X or whatever here) is pretty much the best defensive combo in the game with the added benefit that it doesn't suck up a prep round and instead is cast reactively.

[Gnome Alone]

If we're talking real-life then I'm banning Necromancy and Evocation, cuz, y'know, I don't wanna hurt nobody 'n all that. (Yes, I know Transmutation can be used to turn people to stone and Conjuration can be used to summon helpful murder-demons, etc. But Necromancy and Evocation, c'mon, that's mainly about zombies, soul-sucking and melted eyeballs.)

And I want me some freaking Illusion powers already. To think of all the stuff I could do with Silent Image and Ghost Sound alone; ohhhh mama. Oh, fat, fat mama.

Come to think of it, this can double as my answer for if I was building a specialist wizard. Seems pretty solid. Although it'd probably just be easier to use a Beguiler. Which I really gotta do one of these days, that seems like it must be one of the funnest classes.

So I'm changing my answer to Transmuter, if we're not talking about, like, "I wish I were a wizzard fer reel, doodz."

[gawwy]

Wait, are we talking about in real life again?

Either way, I'm never banning Enchantment again unless we're starting above level 13ish. I just discovered price of loyalty: it's charm person with no components beyond a focus (a platinum piece you give to the target) and that your target doesn't realize he was subjected to if he makes the save.

What book is price of loyalty from?

[Marlowe]

Question for the OP, why do you believe that Conjuration is more dispensable than, say, Necromancy?

Nobody is saying you can't play any way you like, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

[Fax Celestis]

Most likely necromancy and illusion. I would consider dropping abjuration though.

This is mine. All the others have their uses. Illusion can be powerful, but it's far too reliant on a favorable DM and an inventive player for my tastes.

[zarreff]

Question for the OP, why do you believe that Conjuration is more dispensable than, say, Necromancy?

Nobody is saying you can't play any way you like, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

When I think of conjuration, I think of summoned creatures...and I would rather cast finger of death than summon a creature to fight for me (isnt that what the melee players in my party are gonna do)?

I've just taken a break from a campaign where we had almost as many npc characters following us around as their where player characters...lol, it was ridiculous the amount of time they took up in rounds. I dont want to summon something and bog down the game. I know conjuration is fun and cool. But after that game, it has turned me off to anything other than a player character getting a turn on our team.

So that was my reasoning :)

I must say Im surprised so many people knock evocation off their wizard spell list. I assumed most damage dealing spells were of the evocation school? I do know that other schools have awesome damage dealing, and lol yes disintegrate surprised me also when I found it wasnt an evocation spell!

[squiggit]

What book is price of loyalty from?

Player's Guide to Eberron p.149

[Honest Tiefling]

Necromancy is usually on the top. Unless you are in a morally flexible party, many good tricks in it simply don't gel well. I guess if you had a high enough bluff you could convince them that your cohort just is a bit on the skinny side. I like invisibility too much for Illusion, but I'm not fond of enchantment unless I'm working with a party face. Enchantment might mean that you never have to say sorry, but so does teleporting them into volcanoes.

[eggynack]

This is mine. All the others have their uses. Illusion can be powerful, but it's far too reliant on a favorable DM and an inventive player for my tastes.
I disagree. Stuff like silent image, sure, you might need some DM love to get really good effects out of your ridiculous conjured images. However, stuff like invisibility, mirror image, simulacrum, project image, shadow evocation, and color spray is great and works without any DM adjudication. If your DM grants some silent image leeway, then illusion is fantastic. If they don't, then illusion is "only" really good.

[Odessa333]

Of those three? Illusions and enchantment. Conjuration is too sweet for words.

[Sir Chuckles]

When I think of conjuration, I think of summoned creatures...and I would rather cast finger of death than summon a creature to fight for me (isnt that what the melee players in my party are gonna do)?

I've just taken a break from a campaign where we had almost as many npc characters following us around as their where player characters...lol, it was ridiculous the amount of time they took up in rounds. I dont want to summon something and bog down the game. I know conjuration is fun and cool. But after that game, it has turned me off to anything other than a player character getting a turn on our team.

So that was my reasoning :)

I must say Im surprised so many people knock evocation off their wizard spell list. I assumed most damage dealing spells were of the evocation school? I do know that other schools have awesome damage dealing, and lol yes disintegrate surprised me also when I found it wasnt an evocation spell!

Many people can explain to you why Conjuration is far more than Summoning, and why Evocation is rather poor at what it's advertised to do. A big reason to get rid of evocation is that doing damage is often not your job. Why do 5d6 damage with the possibility of the damage being cut in half, or even negated entirely, when you can cause a 20x20 AoE te be reduced to move actions for 1 round/level+1d4+1 rounds? Why piddle away with 24d6 (Reflex Half) when you can stop time?

[Jeff the Green]

I must say Im surprised so many people knock evocation off their wizard spell list. I assumed most damage dealing spells were of the evocation school? I do know that other schools have awesome damage dealing, and lol yes disintegrate surprised me also when I found it wasnt an evocation spell!

Aside from the fact that Conjuration's just as good at blasting as Evocation, damage isn't the greatest thing to have a Wizard spend their time on. They're either so much better at it than weapons that you render mundane characters useless or they're not very good at it. In general they're better off preventing the enemy from doing stuff while the fighter whacks them.

[Fax Celestis]

I disagree. Stuff like silent image, sure, you might need some DM love to get really good effects out of your ridiculous conjured images. However, stuff like invisibility, mirror image, simulacrum, project image, shadow evocation, and color spray is great and works without any DM adjudication. If your DM grants some silent image leeway, then illusion is fantastic. If they don't, then illusion is "only" really good.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying a lot of the really fun toys in illusion are DM nightmares.

[Gnome Alone]

Aside from the fact that Conjuration's just as good at blasting as Evocation, damage isn't the greatest thing to have a Wizard spend their time on. They're either so much better at it than weapons that you render mundane characters useless or they're not very good at it. In general they're better off preventing the enemy from doing stuff while the fighter whacks them.

"Hey uh, Doc, we appreciate you trying to help out and all, but I gotta say, you could probably be doing more effective things than flinging your beakers at the guys trying to kill us. I mean, we are trained knife throwers."

"Oh. Sorry. Here, I'll use my volcano gun. It simulates the effect of an erupting volcano in a focused beam. Should kill... pretty much everyone."

"Huh. Ooookay..."

"I can also make it faster."

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't know if 3.5 has any method to do something similar, but I believe there is a combo of feats that allows you to rain crocodiles onto your enemies in Pathfinder at higher levels. It is higher levels, but I prefer to end my arguments with angry beef then fireballs. Fireballs don't give your tanks flanking bonuses either.

[Dalebert]

Illusion is one of the most versatile schools in the game when you consider things like shadow magic but especially when you consider simulacrum. I can't imagine giving up the school just for that one spell unless I was not expecting the game to ever get to a high enough level to cast it. Aside from that super useful in a million situations and OP spell, illusion just seems like such a fun school.

[AnonymousPepper]

When I think of conjuration, I think of summoned creatures...and I would rather cast finger of death than summon a creature to fight for me (isnt that what the melee players in my party are gonna do)?

I've just taken a break from a campaign where we had almost as many npc characters following us around as their where player characters...lol, it was ridiculous the amount of time they took up in rounds. I dont want to summon something and bog down the game. I know conjuration is fun and cool. But after that game, it has turned me off to anything other than a player character getting a turn on our team.

So that was my reasoning :)

I must say Im surprised so many people knock evocation off their wizard spell list. I assumed most damage dealing spells were of the evocation school? I do know that other schools have awesome damage dealing, and lol yes disintegrate surprised me also when I found it wasnt an evocation spell!

Others can tell you just how suboptimal damage dealing usually is and thus why Evoc is bad.

I'm going to explain to you just how outclassed Evocation is for dealing damage, instead.

Conjuration has the Lesser Orb of X spells at level 1, which do 1d8 plus another d8 per two caster levels in elemental damage. No save. Considering nothing has energy resistance at low levels, it will on average nearly always outdamage Magic Missile. Yeah, you have to make an attack roll, but ACs at that level aren't really that good and you did put a decent number of points into dex, right? And it's a ranged TOUCH roll, so it's going to hit anything that's not a rogue or a bow-based ranger. When you hit fourth-level spells, you get the Orb of X spells, which do 1d6 per caster level in elemental damage up to 15d6, no save on the damage, save against a secondary effect, and Orb of Force, which is 1d6/CL up to 10d6 with no secondary effect, but in exchange ignores all energy resistance and immunity. Again, these are ranged touch rolls. Also, no SR, so that Drow you're fighting gets a nasty surprise.

Transmutation gets Disintegrate, which obsoletes nearly every other non-SoD single-target damage spell. It just does so much damage, fort save for half though and SR applies. It also gets Baleful Polymorph and the Flesh to X spells, which are basically your staple Save or Dies.

Necromancy has Avasculate, which as I've said before is absolutely my favorite blast spell in the game. Single target, ranged touch attack roll (and at this level, touch ACs simply cannot keep pace with you unless the DM artificially fudges them), no save, to flat-out remove half of the target's HP. Fort save against a secondary effect. SR does apply. Earlier, you get Enervate, which does a piddling 5-20 damage, but more importantly hits your enemy with negative levels. That said, it will instagib somebody who has less levels than what you hit them with in neg levels, and those negative levels stack with themselves. Throw a few Split Ray Enervates at any target and watch it kick the bucket hard, or at least lose access to many of its class abilities.

For area-of-effect, Incendiary Cloud and Cloudkill kick the ever-loving crap out of just about everything else in the game. 4d6 damage per round to every target in its AOE and it lasts for caster level rounds. Cloudkill flat-out kills anything with less than 3HD, kills barring a fort save from 4-6, and does 1d4 Con damage per round in its AOE, again for caster-level rounds. Con damage is absolutely vicious, I don't even need to point out.

[The Insaniac]

My order of bans for a standard combat focused, non-thematic character is:

Enchantment: I like this school and it has some great spells in it but six of the sixteen creature types (constructs, deathless, oozes, plants, undead and vermin) have blanket immunity to every spell in the school (except for maybe freezing glance). Plus, mind blank provides immunity to the entire school.

Abjuration (with other casters): If there is someone else in the party who can use dispel magic, you don't need abjuration that badly. It has some nice spells in it but they aren't anything super special except for the magic negation ((greater) dispel magic, AMF, disjunction etc.

Evocation: I really like evocation. Not because it has good damage spells (the best are sorcerer only and the rest tend to be mediocre) but because it has stuff like contingency, great thunderclap and force effects.

Illusion: The best spells in the school are highly dependent on your imagination and your DM's tolerance for creative illusions (and shadow cheese). Many of the spells are also negated by true seeing. However, spells like greater mirror image are invaluable if your opponents can't see through them and spells like phantasmal strangler work regardless of vision modes.

Necromancy: Debuffs, save-or-dies and some nice buffs. The undead aspect can be fun, but it's not superb unless you put a lot of resources into it. This school is good thanks to enervation, finger of death, false life and similar spells. On the other hand, it's hardly a needed school, just a handy one to have.

Transmutation: Excellent buffs, cheese out the wazoo, and some other goodies like disintegrate it lags behind conjuration until about seventh level spells, then you get PaO and shapechange.

Abjuration (without other casters): You need anti-magic in the party. If no one else can do it, don't ban this school. No, not even then.

Conjuration: Best school until about 13th level, starts to fall off there unless you can pull outsiders out of your pockets to do all of your casting (and everything else) for you. And by "lag behind" I mean "is not totally broken beyond all belief because of polymorph 2.0."

I judge evocation, illusion and necromancy to be more or less interchangeable based on your character idea if you get access to more than core. In core, evocation takes a big hit and loses most of its control and debuffs, dropping it to below enchantment.

The rankings may change a little based on the style of campaign that you're in. Enchantment, for instance, is basically mandatory in an RP heavy, social and political game.

[Jeff the Green]

"Hey uh, Doc, we appreciate you trying to help out and all, but I gotta say, you could probably be doing more effective things than flinging your beakers at the guys trying to kill us. I mean, we are trained knife throwers."

"Oh. Sorry. Here, I'll use my volcano gun. It simulates the effect of an erupting volcano in a focused beam. Should kill... pretty much everyone."

"Huh. Ooookay..."

"I can also make it faster."

I am so reflavoring cloud of knives when I get a chance.

[Gnome Alone]

I am so reflavoring cloud of knives when I get a chance.

As the volcano gun or as a knife thrower's attack routine?

[Petrocorus]

~~~snipped good stuuf~~


Enchantment: It's a bit of a toss-up between this and Evoc, but at least Evoc remains useful the entire game.
Evocation: Sorry, Conjuration just does your job better.
Illusion: My apologies, Illusion, you're a great school, but a lot of your stuff is rounds-per-level single target buffs and is negated by True Seeing.
Necromancy: Losing Avasculate in particular really, really sucks, but if it's gotten this far, it's between you and Abjuration and I'm not losing the Dispel series. Also, four schools is generally too much for me to stomach, and so I usually wouldn't get to this point. But if I did, this would be it.
Abjuration: If I'm required to ditch five schools to make a build work, it's absolutely not worth it and I'd basically never do it. That said, if for whatever reason I was forced to, I can at least theoretically summon monsters with Dispel SLAs because of Conjuration.


I would personally not put Illusion as the third most "bannable" school. It is usually considered as the third best school. It has many useful spells, not only image spells. It also has Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration, allowing you to reproduce a big part of the Evocation school you just banned, and improving your Wizard versatily given the number of effect that one spell can do. A prepared Shadow Evocation can replace a Force Ladder, a Fireball, a Wall of. X, etc... And gives access to one of the best Wizard PrC of the game.

OTOH, Necromancy have many [Evil] spells and even those without the evil descriptor can be morally etchy for your PC or for other PC. And if it has really good spells, many of them are debuffing spells, so you don't use this school without some planning or optimisation, because BBEG have protection against debuffing. They don't have that much protection against you buffing the BSF, summoning a BSF or creating a wall to isolate them.

Additionally, Evocation have too many damage spells, but some of them are really good for their level (scorching ray, seeking ray) and their are also some good other spells (Wall of Force, Force Ladder, Dancing Light, Daylight, Sending) and notably Contingency. Some consider this spell alone should prevent to ban the school.

So, i would rate that the first school to ban is Enchantment, unless you pley low level only, and for the second one, Evocation or Necromancy, or maybe Abjuration if you really don't need it (see what others told about it) and if you don't want to be a gish.

Conjuration, Transmutation but also Illusion, IMHO, are the ones not to ban.



Abjuration (with other casters): If there is someone else in the party who can use dispel magic, you don't need abjuration that badly. It has some nice spells in it but they aren't anything super special except for the magic negation ((greater) dispel magic, AMF, disjunction etc.

Abjuration (without other casters): You need anti-magic in the party. If no one else can do it, don't ban this school. No, not even then.


I still don't understand why Mage Armor is not Abjuration.

One must also consider that if he want to gish, he needs Abjuration for Abjurant Champion


The rankings may change a little based on the style of campaign that you're in. Enchantment, for instance, is basically mandatory in an RP heavy, social and political game.

I think there are some good Transmutation spells that improves Charisma or skills. The best ones are specific to Bards, though.

[Dread_Head]

When I think of conjuration, I think of summoned creatures...and I would rather cast finger of death than summon a creature to fight for me (isnt that what the melee players in my party are gonna do)?

I've just taken a break from a campaign where we had almost as many npc characters following us around as their where player characters...lol, it was ridiculous the amount of time they took up in rounds. I dont want to summon something and bog down the game. I know conjuration is fun and cool. But after that game, it has turned me off to anything other than a player character getting a turn on our team.

So that was my reasoning :)

I must say Im surprised so many people knock evocation off their wizard spell list. I assumed most damage dealing spells were of the evocation school? I do know that other schools have awesome damage dealing, and lol yes disintegrate surprised me also when I found it wasnt an evocation spell!

You answered your own question about dropping evocation at the start of your post when you said fighting things was what the melee characters are for. A wizard is better off supporting the melee characters either through buffing or through controlling where the enemies are on the battlefield. And most of the battlefield control (BFC) spells are in conjuration. Think Stinking Cloud, Evards Black Tentacles, Web, Grease, Wall of X etc.

In terms of what schools I would choose to ban it really depends on what concept I am trying to fulfil. A good wizard might drop Evocation, Enchantment and/or Necromancy. Whereas an chaotic more rogue like wizard might want to keep illusion and enchantment so drop evocation, necromancy and/or abjuration. A necromancer might drop enchantment (lots of overlap with necromancy (minions and save or X spells)) and conjuration. Choose what schools you keep to fit your character concept rather than for absolute power.

Edit: But in terms of power, I agree with pretty much everyone else. Enchantment & Evocation < Illusion & Necromancy < Abjuration < Conjuration & Transmutation.
Also it depends a lot on what levels you are going to be playing at. At low levels enchantment and illusion are great due to sleep and colour spray and you want to ban schools to get the extra slots from specialising. At higher levels you'll have plenty of spell slots anyway so the greater versatility of generalist is superior to the extra spell slots of specialising.

[Galen]

Pick two among Necromancy, Enchantment, Evocation and you'll do fine no matter what you choose.

[Chronos]

If I were a D&D character, I'd be a wizard specializing in divination, with enchantment banned. Which is not necessarily the best mechanical choice, but it's not a bad one. I still say that generalist is better, though. Especially if domain wizard and/or elven generalist is allowed, but even if they're not.

[Petrocorus]

Enchantment: I like this school and it has some great spells in it but six of the sixteen creature types (constructs, deathless, oozes, plants, undead and vermin) have blanket immunity to every spell in the school (except for maybe freezing glance). Plus, mind blank provides immunity to the entire school.


And a level 1 Abjuration spell can completely block it.

[TheGeckoKing]

"Give up entire chunks of versatility for some spell slots? What am I, a Sorcerer?!"
No, but seriously, I don't get why you'd do it. :smallconfused:

[Petrocorus]

"Give up entire chunks of versatility for some spell slots? What am I, a Sorcerer?!"
No, but seriously, I don't get why you'd do it. :smallconfused:

You mean why being a specialist or a focused specialist? I'll reply with Treantmonk's take on the question (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491).

If you can be an Elven Generalist Domain Wizard, that's better of course. But specializing is a very solid option.
And i don't even speak of Abrupt Jaunt.

[Jeff the Green]

As the volcano gun or as a knife thrower's attack routine?

As throwing beakers!

[eggynack]

You mean why being a specialist or a focused specialist? I'll reply with Treantmonk's take on the question (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491).
It's a decent argument, but it's one that misses out somewhat on out of combat versatility in favor of purely in combat versatility. For some examples of lost effects from specialization that went unconsidered, there's contingency from evocation, assuming we're before level 15 and without craft contingent spell, mind rape from enchantment, along with the other long term brain control spells to a lesser extent, and minionmancy spells from necromancy, which are still somewhat relevant in the world of planar binding. Abjuration is mostly relevant along these lines, and also along other lines, if you don't happen to have other casters filling gaps for you.

[The Insaniac]

And a level 1 Abjuration spell can completely block it.

Only part of it. Protection from X only blocks (charm) and (compulsion) effects and while those are the signature effects in enchantment, there is a huge amount more to it. Still, losing your signature abilities to a level one spell that's on almost everyone's list is pretty bad.

[Jeff the Green]

Only part of it. Protection from X only blocks (charm) and (compulsion) effects and while those are the signature effects in enchantment, there is a huge amount more to it. Still, losing your signature abilities to a level one spell that's on almost everyone's list is pretty bad.

Not even that. Only ones that give the caster "ongoing control" over a person. So charm person and ray of stupidity are fine.

[eggynack]

Not even that. Only ones that give the caster "ongoing control" over a person. So charm person and ray of stupidity are fine.
Not necessarily the case. One way to parse the way it's written is as you've done so, treating charms and compulsions as a single object to be modified by, "that grant the caster ongoing control." However, you can also treat charms and compulsions as two separate objects, where the ongoing control line impacts only the latter. As ongoing control is strictly within the purview of compulsion, rather than of both subschools, it is fair to assume that the other reading, that the ongoing control line only applies to compulsion, is the correct one.

[Jeff the Green]

Not necessarily the case. One way to parse the way it's written is as you've done so, treating charms and compulsions as a single object to be modified by, "that grant the caster ongoing control." However, you can also treat charms and compulsions as two separate objects, where the ongoing control line impacts only the latter. As ongoing control is strictly within the purview of compulsion, rather than of both subschools, it is fair to assume that the other reading, that the ongoing control line only applies to compulsion, is the correct one.

That's not actually true. I was about to go back and remove charm person from my post. You can control someone you've charmed with a Charisma check.

[Petrocorus]

It's a decent argument, but it's one that misses out somewhat on out of combat versatility in favor of purely in combat versatility. For some examples of lost effects from specialization that went unconsidered, there's contingency from evocation, assuming we're before level 15 and without craft contingent spell, mind rape from enchantment, along with the other long term brain control spells to a lesser extent, and minionmancy spells from necromancy, which are still somewhat relevant in the world of planar binding. Abjuration is mostly relevant along these lines, and also along other lines, if you don't happen to have other casters filling gaps for you.
This is right, OOC versatility is more difficult for specialist, Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy have some pretty good utility spell. It's amazing what you can do with Continual Flame if your imaginative, or how much you'll miss a Gentle Repose when you need one. And of course i'm only speaking of low level spell.


Only part of it. Protection from X only blocks (charm) and (compulsion) effects and while those are the signature effects in enchantment, there is a huge amount more to it. Still, losing your signature abilities to a level one spell that's on almost everyone's list is pretty bad.
That's right, i should not have said "completely". Still a big kick in the family jewellery of Enchantment.


PS: Grammar nazi required, is this sentence "should not have said" is English?

[Jeff the Green]

PS: Grammar nazi required, is this sentence "should not have said" is English?

By itself, no. As you used it, yes, but "shouldn't have said" would probably be more idiomatic unless you're contradicting someone who said that saying that was a good idea and are thus stressing the "not".

[Petrocorus]

By itself, no. As you used it, yes, but "shouldn't have said" would probably be more idiomatic unless you're contradicting someone who said that saying that was a good idea and are thus stressing the "not".

So, it's the fact that didn't used the contraction that make it wrong? OK.
And their is no problem with having two auxiliaries together?

My Thor, i must grab an English teacher when i go back to work.

[eggynack]

That's not actually true. I was about to go back and remove charm person from my post. You can control someone you've charmed with a Charisma check.
That's not the charm inflicting ongoing control on the person's mind. It's you making use of the favorable way your words are heard in order to get the person to agree to stuff. Besides, either way protection from evil is stopping the spell. After all, if charm person does causes ongoing control, then it obviously causes ongoing control. In any case, even were charm spells capable of ongoing control, that still doesn't remove the ambiguity inherent in the text.