Ultimate Magus of Cheeseland. Question.

[D4rkh0rus]

Some time ago I was browsing the forums for OP builds and I stumbled Upon the Ultimate Magus RaW Trick where you grab the spontaneous divination on a wizard and thus advance 17 wizard levels throughout the Ultimate magus chassis.

so theoretically, by character level 14 (Wiz 5/UM 9) you would have the casting of a 20th level wizard.

the main question, is that I had read (somewhere, cant remember) that afterwards, you could learn epic spells. Some time passed, and reading the rules for epic spellcasting, It said it required 24 ranks in Knowledge (Arcane) and Spellcraft. So, what I'm Asking is...


Is there a way for a lvl 14 Ultimate magus with 20th lvl wizard spellcasting to attain epic spells? (or in the case that I had read, a 15th level wizard/ultimate magus with effective wizard spellcasting level of 22).


also they should really add a cheese tag for forums posts :P

[Troacctid]

At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

If your casting class is both a prepared casting class and a spontaneous casting class, then every level you advance in that class is advancing both a prepared casting class and a spontaneous casting class. Ultimate Magus doesn't double up any more than taking more levels in the base class would.

[Gemini476]

Epic Spellcasting requires 24 ranks in two skills, so you can't take it before level 21.
Also, you need to be level 21 (or an old dragon) to even get access to [Epic] feats.
You could turn into a Barghest to get around that, or get a bard to sing some hit dice on you, but so could any caster with ninth-level spells.

By the way, a Sha'ir 3/Mystic Theurge 7 would get ninth-level spells even faster than your Ultimate Magus (if the trick works, which is pretty debatable.)

[D4rkh0rus]

Epic Spellcasting requires 24 ranks in two skills, so you can't take it before level 21.
Also, you need to be level 21 (or an old dragon) to even get access to [Epic] feats.
You could turn into a Barghest to get around that, or get a bard to sing some hit dice on you, but so could any caster with ninth-level spells.

By the way, a Sha'ir 3/Mystic Theurge 7 would get ninth-level spells even faster than your Ultimate Magus (if the trick works, which is pretty debatable.)

I can understand shapeshifting into a barghest and devouring a ton of corpses, but what would happen to all the extra HD when I shape back into my base form?

[Heliomance]

I can understand shapeshifting into a barghest and devouring a ton of corpses, but what would happen to all the extra HD when I shape back into my base form?

I believe the idea is that you gain the HD, assign skill points to get you up to 24 ranks in Spellcraft, then shift back, lose the HD, and lose that many skill points. There is, however, no rule saying that you have to remove the skill points from the same skills you put them into, so you end up with 24 in Spellcraft, above your normal cap, and pretty much nothing in anything else.

[Gemini476]

I can understand shapeshifting into a barghest and devouring a ton of corpses, but what would happen to all the extra HD when I shape back into my base form?

They probably disappear when you lose the ability, but that's not important. What's important is that getting additional hit dice heightens your maximum skill ranks, so if you get some method to adjust your ranks (I think some powers work?) then you could boost your Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft up to 24 ranks so that you could later get Epic Spell casting through whatever other method you choose. (I'd prefer a dragonwrought kobold, but an old half-dragon would work just as well.)

Or, if they don't dissappear, you could just use them to boost yourself up to 24 ranks and [Epic] hit dice and feats. That would be a bit simpler, I suppose.

This is all going off of what I've gleaned of the topic before, though - I haven't actually looked through what works and what doesn't.

[D4rkh0rus]

They probably disappear when you lose the ability, but that's not important. What's important is that getting additional hit dice heightens your maximum skill ranks, so if you get some method to adjust your ranks (I think some powers work?) then you could boost your Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft up to 24 ranks so that you could later get Epic Spell casting through whatever other method you choose. (I'd prefer a dragonwrought kobold, but an old half-dragon would work just as well.)

Or, if they don't dissappear, you could just use them to boost yourself up to 24 ranks and [Epic] hit dice and feats. That would be a bit simpler, I suppose.

This is all going off of what I've gleaned of the topic before, though - I haven't actually looked through what works and what doesn't.


I see, Would transforming into a Barghest and om-nom-nom'ing humanoids till epic level count towards the max HD? (I.E needs to be done at wizard 17+ for shapechange and with CL boosters...)

[sideswipe]

if shapeshifting is not your thing then a major bloodline could give you 24 ranks by level 18, add primary contact and that feat (i think from ebberon that i always forget the name of) that gives +2 ranks above normal for knowledges and you get down to qualifying for it at level 17. as a DM if i was allowing such cheese anyway i would allow you to take the feat at level 17. but i would never allow the ultimate magus trick or anything like it.