Help me show off the cloistered cleric!

[WarKitty]

So I have a cloistered cleric who seems as far as I can tell a bit unaware of the power of the class other than healing and shooting a crossbow. I'd like to provide a bit more introduction to what the class can do, but so far I haven't had much luck. What I'd really like is to introduce a cleric figure that has a lot of minor spells that can really mess things up - preferably ones that won't just blow over after the party for once manages to roll super well on their saves.

So what do you say? Party's level 3, nearly 4.

[The Insaniac]

Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3
2 flaws (shaky, feeble)

Race Sunscorch Hobgoblin or human, removing the flaws and dropping extra turning

God: Hextor

Domains: War, Pride, Knowledge, Domination (bonus from ordained champion)

ACFs: Cloistered cleric, spontaneous domain casting (pride)

Skill tricks: collector of stories

Feats:
Weapon prof. (light flail) (B)
Weapon prof. (heavy flail) (B)
WF (light flail) (B)
WF (heavy flail) (B)
Knowledge devotion (traded with knowledge domain)
Extend spell (1st)
Persistent spell (flaw)
DMM persistent spell (flaw)
Power attack (3rd)
Spell Focus (Enchantment) (B)
Extra Turning (6th)
Diehard (B)

Gear: heavy flail, full plate, charisma boosting item, item for extra turn attempts

Have him running persisted divine favor and divine power and if he's got the turn attempts lesser infernal transformation, ring of blades, entropic shield or cloud of knives.

[WarKitty]

No flaws. Preferably not too many build-specific requirements, either. The ultimate goal of this is to get a PC to realize that she's got so much more power than a simple healbot in her.

PC domains are knowledge, trickery, and mind, so bonus points for using those. Oh and she has extra turning as a feat, so making use of turn attempts would also be good.

Sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=904475

[Seerow]

I'm curious, why did she take extra turning when she has no uses for turn undead?

Also she seems to have burned all of her feats into being able to perform a scout-esque role, while still being stuck with 1/2 ranks and no dex to back it up. No wonder she's feeling useless!


Right now her best bet is probably looking for save or suck spells she can cast. She's a 3rd level cleric, which means Hold Person is available, which is a big "I-Win" spell against a large swath of enemies. Command, Summon Monster, and Cause Fear are others that are going to be pretty good at this level. Those are just the core standout options, if you go digging there'll be a lot more.

Right now she isn't built at all for your typical cleric archer build. Replacing Guerilla Feats and/or trading out domains for Devotion feats would go a long way towards making her more combat capable immediately, but as it is she'll want to avoid physical attacks until at least level 7 when Divine Power comes online.

[Telonius]

Guerrilla Warrior in particular seems to be a completely wasted feat. MW studded leather removes the ACP, and Hide is already on the skill list because of the Trickery domain. You could change Guerrilla Scout and Guerrilla Warrior into Able Learner (from Races of Destiny) and Improved Initiative, and have a more powerful character.

[Galen]

So I have a cloistered cleric who seems as far as I can tell a bit unaware of the power of the class other than healing and shooting a crossbow. I'd like to provide a bit more introduction to what the class can do, but so far I haven't had much luck. What I'd really like is to introduce a cleric figure that has a lot of minor spells that can really mess things up - preferably ones that won't just blow over after the party for once manages to roll super well on their saves.

So what do you say? Party's level 3, nearly 4.

For that purpose, you probably want an ally that hangs around with the party for a session or two, and not just an enemy who lives for one encounter.

Spells to showcase:
Divine Insight (a skillmonkey that can outskill the Bard and the Rogue, a few times per day at least)
Sound Burst (some damage and battlefield control. Stunned is a very sweet condition to inflict on enemies)
Omen of Peril (guys, don't go there!)
Resurgence (you failed a save? Here's another one)
Spiritual Weapon (pretty good damage over time, that frees up the caster to do other things in the meanwhile)
Lore of the Gods (huge with Knowledge Devotion)
Mass Lesser Vigor (if you want to be a healbot, might as well do it right)

Feats:
Protection Devotion (+3 AC to everyone is pretty big at this level, and it even scales further with levels)
Knowledge Devotion (with Lore of the Gods and a modicum of ranks, usually will be about +3)

By the way, Collector of Stories doesn't work with Knowledge Devotion by strict RAW, but most DMs allow it, so might as well.

Note that I haven't even started with DMM madness, which is, like, a whole new level.

[Lightlawbliss]

I'm trying to figure out what your PC is trying to build. Her stats don't mesh with her feats and neither meshed with her equipment. I don't want to even get started going over her skills.

[WarKitty]

I'm trying to figure out what your PC is trying to build. Her stats don't mesh with her feats and neither meshed with her equipment. I don't want to even get started going over her skills.

I'm really not sure. She's been trying to play a healbot with some scouting abilities I think, though I've been strongly discouraging healbotting by showering them with healing stuff. And scouting just hasn't been working. The equipment's probably my fault admittedly for being stingy with stores (I'm fixing that next session). But yeah, the character does feel a bit grab bag. Especially the extra turning - though now that she's got it anything she could use it for? I might even be persuaded to allow some divine metamagic, with the rule that it doesn't mesh with any external turning attempts.

[Lightlawbliss]

I'm really not sure. She's been trying to play a healbot with some scouting abilities I think, though I've been strongly discouraging healbotting by showering them with healing stuff. And scouting just hasn't been working. The equipment's probably my fault admittedly for being stingy with stores (I'm fixing that next session). But yeah, the character does feel a bit grab bag.
Ok, I would recommend linking the player to the Handbook index (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0), or atleast to some handbooks related to her goals. That should help her to organize her character


Especially the extra turning - though now that she's got it anything she could use it for? I might even be persuaded to allow some divine metamagic, with the rule that it doesn't mesh with any external turning attempts.
I tend to use turn attempts for devotion feats and/or divine meta-magic. If I were to give suggestions on DMM, I would likely end up quoting the Handbooks, so I'll let them handle that.

[Jeff the Green]

I might even be persuaded to allow some divine metamagic, with the rule that it doesn't mesh with any external turning attempts.

DMM Quicken is fairly nice and less of a problem than DMM Persist. You might consider allowing her to use the turn attempts from a Reliquary Holy Symbol if not a Nightstick to get that second use (requires 5 attempts, she has 3 base + 2 Cha + 4 Extra Turning = 9). Spontaneously quickening a spell is particularly useful if you want to be a force multiplier and buff your friendly neighborhood meatshield.

[WarKitty]

It doesn't help here that I think she's used to being the optimizer, except I think she's also used to playing with people who don't really know what they're doing. So I'm trying to avoid coming in and saying "you're not as good an optimizer as you think you are" or anything to that effect. But the character isn't as good and given that there's also been some OOC tension I'm trying to be careful.

[Galen]

WarKitty,

I know it's crazy, but have you considered the unlikely option of leaving well enough alone? I mean, ok, I get it that the character isn't good. But whom exactly does it bother? Does your mention OOC tension refer to the fact the player is unhappy with the character, or that you are?

[nedz]

WarKitty,

I know it's crazy, but have you considered the unlikely option of leaving well enough alone? I mean, ok, I get it that the character isn't good. But whom exactly does it bother? Does your mention OOC tension refer to the fact the player is unhappy with the character, or that you are?

this.

People learn in all sorts of ways, and making mistakes is a good way to do it.

[WarKitty]

WarKitty,

I know it's crazy, but have you considered the unlikely option of leaving well enough alone? I mean, ok, I get it that the character isn't good. But whom exactly does it bother? Does your mention OOC tension refer to the fact the player is unhappy with the character, or that you are?

I'm definitely getting the feeling the the player is both a bit frustrated with not having much to do, and that it's not really helping with other players feeling like one PC isn't contributing much outside of a very stereotypical "I heal people". And it's coming out a bit on my campaign design with the one player feeling like the game is against her because there's not really much for her to do. So I want her to realize that there are a lot more things she could be doing than playing healbot.

Edit: I mean, I'm not going to force her to do anything. What I want to do really is just a demonstration. Basically I don't think the player is really aware that she can be doing more than what she's been doing, or if she is the times she's seen it have been very unoptimized and inefficient. She's not the type to be hanging out on optimization boards, after all - she still thinks monks are overpowered. This is just for providing knowledge.

[Galen]

Well, you could start by getting some 1-on-1 time with the player, and asking if she's happy with the game in general, with her character, with the way things are going, etc. Hopefully, at this time she can give you some indication she feels the character isn't doing much. "Well," you can ask, "what would you like the character to do?"

Hopefully, at this time she either gives you a shopping list of "this, this, and that", or at least just "I don't know, I'd just like to do more", at which point you can be ready with "well, would you like me to show you a few things?"

Oh, and I think it's best if such things are shown out of game, not ingame. If you're bringing a powerful cloistered cleric NPC and show him off ingame, players might get the message "of course he's powerful, he's the DM's character".

[WarKitty]

Well, you could start by getting some 1-on-1 time with the player, and asking if she's happy with the game in general, with her character, with the way things are going, etc. Hopefully, at this time she can give you some indication she feels the character isn't doing much. "Well," you can ask, "what would you like the character to do?"

The main thing here is I'm not sure how well "what would you like your character to do" works with a player who doesn't know the system all that well (and is perhaps not the most imaginative). So we're dealing with a player who seems to think, I'm a cleric, clerics heal, so I want to heal people because I'm playing a cleric. And every party needs a dedicated healbot so I'm filling that role!

Not that they wouldn't enjoy doing something else, but it doesn't occur to them as an option on the table. Or they don't really know how an option works so they pass it up because it's been terrible when they've seen it done. We're talking more on the level of my crossbow is a better option than inflict spells so I'll stick with my crossbow as my offensive weapon.

[Petrocorus]

No flaws. Preferably not too many build-specific requirements, either. The ultimate goal of this is to get a PC to realize that she's got so much more power than a simple healbot in her.

PC domains are knowledge, trickery, and mind, so bonus points for using those. Oh and she has extra turning as a feat, so making use of turn attempts would also be good.

Sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=904475

Guerilla Scout and Warrior, what book are they from? And what do they bring to the build?

I guess the "grotesque" adjective is your personal addition? :smalltongue:
On an unrelated note, the PC is a 6' 5'' female human. A bit anormally tall, no?


Guerrilla Warrior in particular seems to be a completely wasted feat. MW studded leather removes the ACP, and Hide is already on the skill list because of the Trickery domain. You could change Guerrilla Scout and Guerrilla Warrior into Able Learner (from Races of Destiny) and Improved Initiative, and have a more powerful character.
I second that.

There are many feat interesting.
Touch of Healing (CChamp), if she want to be a Healbot, at least will let her do this without wasting spell.
She could also take Draconic Aura, and with DM fiat, chose the Dragon Shaman's aura of Vigor.

Summon Elemental (CM) and Holy Warrior (CChamp) are very good also, but available at level 7.

She could also take Spontaneous Domain from CChamp or Domain Spontaneity from FoE to be able to cast some spell spontaneously.

There is also the obvious DMM route, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM. Good for persisting Mass Lesser Vigor

Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion are considered very good.

There are many possibilities, she must decide what exactly she want her PC to do.


I'm definitely getting the feeling the the player is both a bit frustrated with not having much to do, and that it's not really helping with other players feeling like one PC isn't contributing much outside of a very stereotypical "I heal people". And it's coming out a bit on my campaign design with the one player feeling like the game is against her because there's not really much for her to do. So I want her to realize that there are a lot more things she could be doing than playing healbot.

Edit: I mean, I'm not going to force her to do anything. What I want to do really is just a demonstration. Basically I don't think the player is really aware that she can be doing more than what she's been doing, or if she is the times she's seen it have been very unoptimized and inefficient. She's not the type to be hanging out on optimization boards, after all - she still thinks monks are overpowered. This is just for providing knowledge.
Here's a build i made:
Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 3/PrC Paladin 2/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1
BAB +13 CL 19 Fort +11 Ref +5 Will +16 Skill points 80
Playable at every level. It progress from knowledgeable cleric into good melee-er with the right feats.
There are builds out there which make the cleric into a real melee powerhouse. They are not call Clericzilla for nothing.

Incidentally, stealth is maybe the thing the cleric is the less good at.


The main thing here is I'm not sure how well "what would you like your character to do" works with a player who doesn't know the system all that well (and is perhaps not the most imaginative). So we're dealing with a player who seems to think, I'm a cleric, clerics heal, so I want to heal people because I'm playing a cleric. And every party needs a dedicated healbot so I'm filling that role!

Point her the "Beginner's" Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.msg153181#msg153181).
And also Treantmonk's Handbook about wizard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0), he explain very well what are the different main roles OOC and IC.
And of course, the handbook index (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=skifnivd54dv5g3ll4j1n3rqb4&topic=399.0) others already pointed out, so she can see cleric handbook.

[WarKitty]

That wasn't the word I used, but yes grotesque is a decent description of the armor. Doesn't do anything mechanically other than make no one want to buy it.

It unfortunately sounds like the player is attached by now to the idea of doing a sneaky cleric. Grab some sneak attack and go shadowbane stalker. The character doesn't need to be super optimized, just competent enough to not look silly next to the rogue. She's planning on going into http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowbane-stalker/ .

The other trouble I'm running into right now is that the player seems convinced the problem is the campaign isn't giving her opportunities to do what she saw her character doing. Which is...a bit complicated. Some of it's just miscommunication. Some of it's that a few of her ideas rely a bit too much on the game going the way she anticipated (including the actions of the other players). A lot of it is just that her build doesn't do what she wants it to do.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
The other trouble I'm running into right now is that the player seems convinced the problem is the campaign isn't giving her opportunities to do what she saw her character doing. Which is...a bit complicated. Some of it's just miscommunication. Some of it's that a few of her ideas rely a bit too much on the game going the way she anticipated (including the actions of the other players). A lot of it is just that her build doesn't do what she wants it to do.

What exactly does she see her character doing? Why does she say she took the options she did? We may be able to help you with that problem.

[WarKitty]

What exactly does she see her character doing? Why does she say she took the options she did? We may be able to help you with that problem.

Near as I can tell she sees her character as being a rogue with healing abilities. Sneaky and stabbity, with a side of social skills. She flat-out said she chose cleric because no one else had any healing abilities and she felt like the group needed one. But now that she's playing a cleric she wants to play a cleric, not another class.

She also had the impression we were going to do a more urban fantasy idea than we were doing and wanted to lead a big popular revolt, which doesn't seem to fit well with the game (especially as she was planning on doing this at low levels). She also wants to talk things out a LOT, more than other characters seem to want to. I feel like she's blaming the fact that we haven't been doing the shadow-run style urban game she was expecting for her character not being that good, when I really don't think that would solve anything.

[Lightlawbliss]

Near as I can tell she sees her character as being a rogue with healing abilities. Sneaky and stabbity, with a side of social skills. She flat-out said she chose cleric because no one else had any healing abilities and she felt like the group needed one. But now that she's playing a cleric she wants to play a cleric, not another class.

She also had the impression we were going to do a more urban fantasy idea than we were doing and wanted to lead a big popular revolt, which doesn't seem to fit well with the game (especially as she was planning on doing this at low levels). She also wants to talk things out a LOT, more than other characters seem to want to. I feel like she's blaming the fact that we haven't been doing the shadow-run style urban game she was expecting for her character not being that good, when I really don't think that would solve anything.

Others may disagree, but I would suggest you give them some leads on a possible side plot fitting with this players goals. More diplomatic, in the city, espionage potential. Give it the token 4 hints. If they don't bite, you can honestly say you gave the option. If they do bite, you can both see if her character is as good as she thinks it should be.

As for leading a rebellion: If she has shown a truly rebellious nature then a letter might find it's way into her bag some place. If she hasn't shown any reason why a rebellion would care she exists, then you have no reason for a rebellion to even contact her. Obviously she doesn't care enough to start her own.

[Petrocorus]

That wasn't the word I used, but yes grotesque is a decent description of the armor. Doesn't do anything mechanically other than make no one want to buy it.

On the sheet you linked, the weapons are described as "grotesque light crossbow" and "grotesque sickle".


It unfortunately sounds like the player is attached by now to the idea of doing a sneaky cleric. Grab some sneak attack and go shadowbane stalker. The character doesn't need to be super optimized, just competent enough to not look silly next to the rogue. She's planning on going into http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowbane-stalker/ .

There are ways to make a cleric sneaky, even if that need more work than with a wizard.
The Trickery domain is a good start. Good skill addition and good spell, notably Invisibility.
She need a way to Move Silently or to Fly. The already suggested Able Learner is possible. You can let her take the feat Cosmopolitan from FRCS, despite the fact he has been updated in PGtF with another effect. It's like Aereni Focus from PGtE. Or let her take Aereni Focus despite the fact she's not an elf.
There's also Skill Knowledge from UA (p81), allow to take 2 skill as class skill.
Alternative Ways to Get Class Skills (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9691.msg157252#msg157252)

One other way is to take a 1 level dip into Rogue, Factotum, Human Paragon. Human Paragon is good since it can give an ability boost.
The Shadowbane Stalker assume you'll multiclass before, even if there are ways not to do it, since it require Sneak Attack.

You should let her rebuild her character. Guerilla Scout and Warrior are really inferior to the Able Learner / Improved Initiative combo, or to any other combo actually. And she need a way to get SA. Some proficiencies with short bow, long bow or short sword would be welcome.
You can also let her take the Dark template from ToM, it gives huge bonus to stealth, and let her buy off the LA.
The mind domain could be replaced potentially (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/domains.html), Time, Travel, Mentalism.


The other trouble I'm running into right now is that the player seems convinced the problem is the campaign isn't giving her opportunities to do what she saw her character doing. Which is...a bit complicated. Some of it's just miscommunication. Some of it's that a few of her ideas rely a bit too much on the game going the way she anticipated (including the actions of the other players). A lot of it is just that her build doesn't do what she wants it to do.
She not really to do what she want to do by now. Skill point lost on cross-class skill, no SA, no proficiencies, etc...


Near as I can tell she sees her character as being a rogue with healing abilities. Sneaky and stabbity, with a side of social skills. She flat-out said she chose cleric because no one else had any healing abilities and she felt like the group needed one. But now that she's playing a cleric she wants to play a cleric, not another class.

She also had the impression we were going to do a more urban fantasy idea than we were doing and wanted to lead a big popular revolt, which doesn't seem to fit well with the game (especially as she was planning on doing this at low levels). She also wants to talk things out a LOT, more than other characters seem to want to. I feel like she's blaming the fact that we haven't been doing the shadow-run style urban game she was expecting for her character not being that good, when I really don't think that would solve anything.
A cleric can be built to to anything, but she started badly. A badly built and played cleric can be just as much a waste of space as a monk. If she build the character with the capability to do want she want it to do, and to be useful to the party, she will have fun even if it's not exactly the kind of campaign she expected.

[WarKitty]

As for leading a rebellion: If she has shown a truly rebellious nature then a letter might find it's way into her bag some place. If she hasn't shown any reason why a rebellion would care she exists, then you have no reason for a rebellion to even contact her. Obviously she doesn't care enough to start her own.

Well the trouble here is that the plot she wanted to do relied on staying in a specific location for a while under specific circumstances. Those weren't the circumstances planned out in the campaign nor were they compatible with what the rest of the party wanted to do. I'll certainly let her do the rebellion if they want to go back eventually, but I don't have anything for them in the starting city and I don't think anyone else wants to go back just yet. That's been the issue with wanting to talk too, which she does a lot - she may want to bluff and diplomacize but that doesn't always mean the rest of the party wants to wait for it.

Edit: The trouble isn't letting her rebuild her character as much as convincing her that the build's bad in the first place, rather than the campaign and the other PC's.

[Petrocorus]

Edit: The trouble isn't letting her rebuild her character as much as convincing her that the build's bad in the first place, rather than the campaign and the other PC's.

OK. Much more complex.

You still have the possibility to show her that thread. Not the best way to do it, but given the numerous comments on her build she'll understand.

You can also point out to her all the feats we suggested and explain to her why they are mechanically better that the guerilla feats. And explain her the extra turning is useless without divine feats to spend the turnings on.
Show her Touch of Healing and Draconic Aura, she'll quickly understand how this is better that spending all her spells.
Show her how Fly and Invisibility can make Hide and Move Silently redundant.

Maybe just show her the Noob handbook and the handbook index and let her come to her own conclusions.

[Jeff the Green]

As for leading a rebellion: If she has shown a truly rebellious nature then a letter might find it's way into her bag some place. If she hasn't shown any reason why a rebellion would care she exists, then you have no reason for a rebellion to even contact her. Obviously she doesn't care enough to start her own.

The problem here is that, unless you're in a very low-level setting, a level 3 unoptimized cleric isn't going to be leading anything. Yes, she might be recruited, but from what WarKitty wrote, I somewhat doubt that would satisfy her.

[Aegis013]

A few recommendations on spells to introduce:
Guidance of the Avatar (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a), gives the Cleric, or ally a +20 Competence bonus to a skill check. At this level, that's "Yes I pass the skill check". It can also be combined with Divine Insight, which provides an Insight bonus, so you can do things like roll a 1d20+28+ranks+ability modifier on a skill check, allowing you to pull off some impressive skill stunts.

As far as combat, if you as the DM are ok with side stepping the rule that if a thing of the same name is printed in a more recent book the other one is old and busted, Darkbolt from Lords or Madness or Book of Vile Darkness are both pretty good blast spells for Cleric, dealing 1d8/2 levels (max 5d8) and making the target roll against Stun. It was reprinted in Spell Compendium as 5th level spell only available to the Darkness domain, with the same effect.

If you can find a way to get past the sacrifice damage and the corruption (or opt not to use those rules), Lahm's Finger Darts from Book of Vile Darkness can be extremely powerful, capable of competing with the more well known Shivering Touch, which your Cleric can't access until later.

Although Darkbolt and Lahm's Finger Darts are both Evil and Corrupt spells respectively, refluffing them wouldn't be particularly difficult for use in your campaign.

[WarKitty]

The problem here is that, unless you're in a very low-level setting, a level 3 unoptimized cleric isn't going to be leading anything. Yes, she might be recruited, but from what WarKitty wrote, I somewhat doubt that would satisfy her.

I'm definitely getting the feeling she's used to both lower optimization and lower magic games.