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Assassinfox
2007-03-18, 11:55 PM
Is it possible to use a greatsword + power attack AND use TWF with armor spikes? Would there be anything wrong with this setup?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-18, 11:57 PM
The armor spikes would be taking the penalty to hit but wouldn't be gaining any bonus damage; they'd just be doing 1d6+0.5STR if you hit with them at all. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not a very good use of feats. It's better than, say, longsword+shortsword TWF if you're strength-based, though.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-18, 11:58 PM
Longsword + TWF + Imp. Shield Bash is probably the best application of TWF I've seen so far.

Zincorium
2007-03-19, 01:19 AM
Greatsword + natural weapon or imp. unarmed strike is the best way for the average character to get some use out of power attack and two weapon fighting, since you get the double use on the greatsword and natural attacks and unarmed strikes specify in the power attack description they function along with the feat. Unless you're a shifter with the razorclaw trait, natural weapons as a secondary you aren't even using TWF, you'd just get an additional attack at -5 with no penalty to the primary, so you aren't spending a feat. The main disadvantage is that it's hard to make the secondary attack meaningful, given the difficulty in enchanting it.

As far as shields go, it's better to get a weapon that functions as light (either normally or through OTWF) and a heavy spiked shield with the bashing enchantment upon it, then use that as primary. You'll get 2d6 base damage which is not bad.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-19, 04:17 AM
Add in Improved Buckler Defence and you can do 2H, 2W and Sword and Boad all at once. Better to pick one to be good at though.

Zincorium
2007-03-19, 04:42 AM
Add in Improved Buckler Defence and you can do 2H, 2W and Sword and Boad all at once. Better to pick one to be good at though.

Imp. buckler defense is nice at lower levels and all, but once you can afford an animated shield, the additional AC is worth it. Plus, if I'm reading the buckler description correctly, you take a -1 to attack with the greatsword while wearing a buckler, which means at best you're getting the equivalent of 1 point combat expertise at the beginning of your career whether you want it at a given time or not.

And really, the best shield is a level or two of sorceror and five levels of Abjurant Champion.

Charity
2007-03-19, 08:11 AM
I'm sure my current DM wouldnt allow me an off hand attack and a two handed attack, (though my TWF rogue would love it) It's all very well by RAW but who allows this?
It does rather seem to fly in the face of practicality.

Sornas
2007-03-19, 09:09 AM
I'm sure my current DM wouldnt allow me an off hand attack and a two handed attack, (though my TWF rogue would love it) It's all very well by RAW but who allows this?
It does rather seem to fly in the face of practicality.

What's wrong with hitting someone with your weapon, then body slamming them? Not the smartest move realistically, but I have no troubles imagining it.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 09:34 AM
loads of things are wrong with that.

Not the least of which is that if you slam someone with your body, it makes it awfully easy for them to stab you with their pointed stick (or whatever they have)

Sornas
2007-03-19, 09:41 AM
I did say it wasn't smart. ^^; But it's not impossible to do.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 09:52 AM
ah, but you did ask what was wrong with it; I was pointing out from a mechanics standpoint one of the things wrong with it (specifically that it doesn't make it any easier to stab you with a pointy stick, which it should), and why it's a silly idea to have mechanics that encourage that sort of behavior as "optimal"

Sornas
2007-03-19, 09:59 AM
Ah, I see. ^^ We are debating two different points, I was just trying to say that it isn't something impossible to do, while you were saying that the mechanics for it in game aren't what they should be. I fully agree with you on that. ^_^

ravenkith
2007-03-19, 10:17 AM
A THF can use armor spikes to get an extra attack, but his is usually best used with a whip (to offset the non-threatening aspect of that weapon) or a spiked chain as part as a battlefield controllers repertoire.

Spell: Girallon's Blessing (Spell Compendium).

This is a 4th level spell (IIRC, AFB) that gives you an extra pair of arms.

If you're a gish, this spell could be very useful in conjunction with the whole TWF + THF thing.

You could actually fight using both swords and get the full benefit from both sets of feats simultaneously, in theory.

Suggested build:

Fighter 4/Wizard (Martial Transmuter?) 2/Abjurant Champion 5

Combine with Arcane Strike and Karmic Strike (combat reflexes to boot) in order to maximize the outgoing pain.

At higher levels, seguing into Shocktrooper ought to help out, by allowing you to drop AC instead of BAB.

When not going 'all out', simply fight with smaller weapons.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-19, 10:23 AM
Girallon's Blessing is 3rd level, and therefore potionable!

Ikkitosen
2007-03-19, 10:56 AM
Imp. buckler defense is nice at lower levels and all, but once you can afford an animated shield, the additional AC is worth it. Plus, if I'm reading the buckler description correctly, you take a -1 to attack with the greatsword while wearing a buckler, which means at best you're getting the equivalent of 1 point combat expertise at the beginning of your career whether you want it at a given time or not.

And really, the best shield is a level or two of sorceror and five levels of Abjurant Champion.

I don't use animated shields, I think they're awful. But that's just my opinion. IBD isn't for the start of your career, it's for when you can afford a great magic item or MV one up at the start of each day.

I agree about Abjurant Champion, but you'll miss out on a lot of the offensive options offered by more combat-oriented PrCs. I'd play a fighter-based AbjChamp but then I'm often not that bothered about being fully twinked out.

Zherog
2007-03-19, 10:57 AM
Girallon's Blessing is 3rd level, and therefore potionable!

Is it a personal range spell? If so, it can't be made into a potion regardless of the level.

note: I don't have SC, so I'm not familiar with the spell

Fax Celestis
2007-03-19, 10:57 AM
It is touch range.

Zherog
2007-03-19, 11:07 AM
In that case, enjoy your potion brewing... :)

Charity
2007-03-19, 11:25 AM
I gotta put a potion of that in my game just to freak out my players (they will never of heard of it, we're PHB only)
Can anyone point me to the spell?
Oh and can one put armour spikes on any armour? or does it need to be rigid?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-19, 11:27 AM
It's in the Spell Compendium. Don't know where it came from originally.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-19, 12:23 PM
Savage Species, natch.

Charity
2007-03-19, 08:22 PM
Ta KitKat, Let them try sipping that one.
What happens to their kit?

Oh I'll just read it myself, note to self 'look with your eyes man!'

ooh nasty it distroys non magic armour -2 o attacks and saves, this is more of a curse than a blessing.

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 09:17 AM
That's why I recommended and abjurant champion build for using it: you get 5 full levels of bab and never need armor again :D

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 10:00 AM
I dunno: Thri-Kreen Totemist binds Girallon Arms, Sphinx Claws, and Unicorn Horn before drinking a potion of Girallon's Blessing. Now he has eight claws, a gore, and a bite, with which he can full-attack with at the end of charge. A little higher level, and he can burn a feat on Thunderstep Boots, bind them to his feet, and have each of those attacks deal an extra 3d4 damage. Yeehaw.

Stormcrow
2007-03-20, 10:34 PM
Some martial arts combine two weapon styles with unarmed strikes into combinations. That would be a good use of THF and TWF. I'm thinking... Naginata plus left boot style.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 10:34 PM
Some martial arts combine two weapon styles with unarmed strikes into combinations. That would be a good use of THF and TWF. I'm thinking... Naginata plus left boot style.

Boot to the head?

Stormcrow
2007-03-20, 11:33 PM
Its basically about hitting the guy in front of you with your weapon and the guy behind/to the side of you with your feet/Elbow/other.

Wehrkind
2007-03-20, 11:42 PM
Actually, hitting someone with your greatsword then body slamming them isn't a bad move in real life. Presumably you would be knocking them off balance or back a bit, hopefully to line them up for your next shot.
I say that because a buddy of mine fights greatsword and does that all the time to shield men. He hits them with the sword high to move their shield, then throws his shoulder into the bottom of the shield to get them moving backwards and disappear from sight, then stabs to the belly while they are trying to recover. Works well if you don't know it is coming.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-20, 11:45 PM
It's also good when you're halfswording.

Jayabalard
2007-03-21, 08:35 AM
halfswording isn't really power attacking though.

Hoggmaster
2007-03-21, 09:02 AM
It would be impossible to PA then body slam/shoulder block/knee to groin/headbut. Think about the mechanics of power attack you are putting extra strength behind your swing to increase you damage output. You have a greater chance to miss but you make up for that with the increased damage. you won't have the time to TWF... (in future pnp d20 game that I will run power attack will add a penalty to AC the round following you PA to emphasize the power behind your swing)

marjan
2007-03-21, 09:09 AM
If it is imposible to PA then body slam it is also imposible to execute full attack in the same round you PA.

Hoggmaster
2007-03-21, 09:10 AM
Excellent point (which I like very much!!!) Power Attack should be a full round Action but my Ideas disable anyone being likely to use it!!!

Charity
2007-03-21, 09:11 AM
Am I alone in not knowing what halfswording is?

In truth the realism isn't really the issue, a dervish can dance about walk 40 foot and make in the realms of 18 seperate attacks on a dozen different creatures in 6 seconds, this is no more unrealistic than that...
I will have to see if I can convince my DM to allow it.
As no-one answered earlier I'll ask again, is there any restrictions on what armour one can add spikes to?


If it is imposible to PA then body slam it is also imposible to execute full attack in the same round you PA.
why?

kamikasei
2007-03-21, 09:13 AM
Am I alone in not knowing what halfswording is?

As ever, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword) knows all.

Hoggmaster
2007-03-21, 09:13 AM
Maybe this would be a valid compromise; Power Attack as a Full round Action, -1 AB = +1 Dmg (2x if 2h weapon) will relent on the penalty to AC.

marjan
2007-03-21, 09:19 AM
To answer why:
If you consider hoggmaster to be right on this it would mean that you can't recover balance fast enough to make body slam attack so it is logical that you also cannot recover balance to swing one more time. Not saying that it is true (I never tried PA or sword fight) but I think that is what hoggmaster is aiming at.

Assassinfox
2007-03-21, 01:06 PM
... because fighters need to be nerfed some more?

Charity
2007-03-21, 01:22 PM
To answer why:
If you consider hoggmaster to be right on this it would mean that you can't recover balance fast enough to make body slam attack so it is logical that you also cannot recover balance to swing one more time. Not saying that it is true (I never tried PA or sword fight) but I think that is what hoggmaster is aiming at.
Let me refer you to the TWF thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-460864), I think a fighter making a couple of attacks (even with some extra power behind them) is far less unrealistic in 6 seconds.
Let's face it the rather arbitary 6 second round is totaly unrealistic. D&D is an heroic game where folk can do all sorts of crazy stuff, cast aside any hope of realism and support your local fighter, they are an endangered species.

ravenkith
2007-03-21, 02:06 PM
... because fighters need to be nerfed some more?

*snerk*

Comedy gold, just gold.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-21, 08:02 PM
... because fighters need to be nerfed some more?


Nonono, THFighters need to be nerfed in comparison to TWFighters.Or TWFighters need to be buffed up to compete. I'm good either way. :smallbiggrin:

marjan
2007-03-21, 09:54 PM
Like I said I think if it is not possible to PA and body slam then it is not possible to get multiple attacks in the same round you PA. I didn't say it should be so, just that if you make one rule a houserule it makes sense to make the other too.

ravenkith
2007-03-22, 11:40 AM
It's a game.

The fighter class sucks anyways.

Let it go.

Jayabalard
2007-03-22, 03:44 PM
Like I said I think if it is not possible to PA and body slam then it is not possible to get multiple attacks in the same round you PA. I didn't say it should be so, just that if you make one rule a houserule it makes sense to make the other too.not necessarily.

Power attacking several times with a 2her keeps you at weapon distance; which is just short of being a reach weapon for most 2 handers.

Body slamming someone means that you step into them, basically stepping into their square where you're too close to get much power behind your attacks.

to me that makes less sense than the dervish dancing around.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-22, 03:50 PM
Why not just triple the damage of all melee'rs and call it even?

Even with casters, that is :)