Temporary HP Barbarian Build?

[Das_Uberboat]

So my group will be playing a campaign of 4e soon, and I wanted to play a Warforged Barbarian.
I'm trying to specialize towards a Barbarian who can amass large amounts of temporary HP quickly, but i'm not 100% sure how to optimize this. So far I picked Rageblood Vigor for Constitution modifier temporary HP when i reduce an enemy to 0 HP, and I took Macetail Rage as my daily power. I can give myself more temporary HP from my Warforged racial power(but only while Bloodied); what other things should I be looking at to get as much of this temp HP as possible, and as quickly as possible?
What should I be looking for to gain Temporary HP as often as possible?

[Tegu8788]

THPs don't stack. So getting them often is more important than getting tons of them.

[Sol]

So my group will be playing a campaign of 4e soon, and I wanted to play a Warforged Barbarian.
I'm trying to specialize towards a Barbarian who can amass large amounts of temporary HP quickly, but i'm not 100% sure how to optimize this. So far I picked Rageblood Vigor for Constitution modifier temporary HP when i reduce an enemy to 0 HP, and I took Macetail Rage as my daily power. I can give myself more temporary HP from my Warforged racial power(but only while Bloodied); what other things should I be looking at to get as much of this temp HP as possible, and as quickly as possible?

So, firstly and most importantly, it's vital to note that this build path is somewhat of a trap and to understand why that's the case. Both of the martial THP-fountain builds in 4e are STR/CON builds, which is a very thematic combination, but in 4e, it's almost always best to diversify your non-AC defenses, leaving only one weak spot. And that weak spot should never be in Will, because attacks vs Will almost always come with the nastiest status effects. On top of this, barbarians wear light armor (and their baked in AC bonus is dependant upon this), which means in order to maintain vaguely competitive defenses, you need to treat DEX as your secondary stat, instead of CON. DEX also solves the double-FORT stat issue (though still leaves will open, sadly), and gives you +init, which is vital for a striker. And no, THP is not a substitute for better AC/defenses. Getting hit more often for less damage (and full status effects) is vastly inferior to getting hit less often for more damage.

That said, it's workable, if you treat the THP as a nice bonus rather than the thing protecting you -- in that case it becomes getting hit less often for less damage, which is obviously the best case scenario.

The most important bits are the Improved Rageblood Vigor feat, which adds +5 and the Belt of Feral Might (which is only a level 3 item!) , which adds +STR to the THP you gain when you kill an enemy. And at that point, the difference between a dual-primary CON mod and a tertiary-at-best CON mod is small enough that it's really, really not worth focusing on CON over DEX. If you go 16/12/16/10/8/12 (18/14/16/10/8/12 post-racial, and this still won't really cover your will defense), you still start with a (pretty bad) 17 AC, and that's 11 THP every time Rageblood triggers. A 18/18 build would only give you 2THP more, but would have 2AC, Fort, and init less, and I don't feel that's even sort of an even trade.

[Laserlight]

Our paladin had a minor action encounter power, Deliverance of Faith, which let him burn a surge and get his surge value in THP. A preemptive heal, as it were, and one which didn't require a healer's action.

[masteraleph]

Our paladin had a minor action encounter power, Deliverance of Faith, which let him burn a surge and get his surge value in THP. A preemptive heal, as it were, and one which didn't require a healer's action.

In theory he could actually have 2, since the Paladin level two utility Virtue does the same thing.

[Dimers]

Barbarians wear light armor (and their baked in AC bonus is dependant upon this), which means in order to maintain vaguely competitive defenses, you need to treat DEX as your secondary stat, instead of CON. DEX also solves the double-FORT stat issue (though still leaves will open, sadly), and gives you +init, which is vital for a striker.

It would also be reasonable to spend a feat on chain armor proficiency so that Dexterity isn't so completely necessary. A warforged barbarian will have enough Str and Con for the feat, pretty much by default. Then points could be spent more equitably on Con+Dex+Wis or Con+Dex+Cha, helping Will stay good too (plus Perception or Intimidate).

It feels wrong to me to ignore a class feature like the barbarian defense bonus, but if it isn't really helping ... *shrug*

[MeeposFire]

generally speaking you get better defenses from using light armor and going dex secondary rather than picking up heavy armor. Con just isn't THAT useful to barbarians ever since they changed how storm of blades work. Essentially as a barb you want a positive con score with just enough so that you can pick up all the feats you want and then you want to go str/dex on a rageborn. Generally this leads to the best results.

[Zaq]

If you go for a Berserker instead of a Barbarian (Heroes of the Feywild), you can take the feat Berserk Vitality, which gives you your surge value in THP whenever you enter your frenzy. Since you can take normal Barbarian powers with a Berserker, you can just load up on Primal powers and enter your frenzy pretty much right away. You'll lose out on your Feral Might feature, but you can still take all the same powers you would take on a normal Barbarian. Add in the Deliverance of Faith skill power (use your background or your multiclass feat to pick up training in Religion), and that's another dose of THP equal to your healing surge value every encounter.

[Titan]

If you are trying for a Temp HP build you will not want the Barbarian at all. You want a Battlerager Fighter, which can be located in the Martial Power 1 book.

Battlerager Vigor
Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close
attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your
Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).

Normally Temp HP does not stack. Battlerager has this line.

When you gain temporary hit points by hitting
with an attack that has the invigorating keyword,
those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary
hit points you already have.

This requires you to take Invigorating powers, but it states it stacks with other TempHP therefore as long as you keep attacking you can keep getting more. It is the only way to stack TmpHP with itself. Invigorating is explained here as well

Invigorating: If you are trained in the Endurance
skill, you gain temporary hit points equal to
your Constitution modifier when you hit with a
power that has this keyword. No invigorating power
grants temporary hit points more than once per
turn, even if you hit more than once with the power
or use more than one power with the invigorating
keyword in a round.

Sure it isn't a lot, but it adds up.

You will most likely be using Chainmail so you are more durable. Then to top it all off you are still a fighter.

[tcrudisi]

If you are trying for a Temp HP build you will not want the Barbarian at all. You want a Battlerager Fighter, which can be located in the Martial Power 1 book.

I ... disagree. Those 2 classes play very differently, even if they both generate temp hp as one of their core mechanics.

I'm basically going to repeat what others have said, but the advice is 100% accurate:

Str is your #1 stat.
Dex is #2, unless you find another way to raise up your AC, such as heavy armor feats
Wis or Cha is #3 (So if you chose a race that boosts Cha, Cha would be your tertiary stat. If it boosted Wis, then Wis would be your secondary stat. If it doesn't boost either, choose based on which one the party needs more.)
Con is #4

"But tcrudisi, Con is important for generating temporary hp! Why is Con such a poor choice?" It's not a poor choice. You're just MAD.

Improved Rageblood Vigor. It's a feat. Take it. You've just negated the major problem of having Con as the 4th most important stat. You're now gaining at least 10 temp hp every time you kill a monster. Make it a VERY early feat acquisition.

Belt of Feral Might. It's a level 3 waist item. Take it at your first opportunity. You're now adding your Str mod to your temp hp from Rageblood Vigor. You are now gaining probably 15 temp hp whenever you kill a monster.

More generic advice:
Some good feats are, in no particular order:
1. Weapon Proficiency (get that big weapon early). Gouge is great. So is Fullblade. Executioner Axe isn't quite as effective as the Gouge, but so what? It lets you roll a bunch of d12s! And its still great. Also, the Fullblade is very good. And don't forget about the Fullblade - it has the advantage of being a +3 prof bonus.
2. ___ Expertise. Probably Two-Handed Weapon Expertise.
3. Improved Rageblood Vigor
4. Did you go Wis 13? If so, Battle Awareness. Off-action attacks are your money-maker.

Powers:
1. Brutal Slam at level 3 is awesome. Do note that its two separate damage instances, so that means you get mods twice! Loads of damage, loads of fun.
2. Curtain of Steel at level 7 is awesome. Off-action attacks are always awesome.

One final thing. If you are dead-set on playing a straight Barbarian, I won't stop you. I even hesitate to mention this right now, but its a straight optimization boost at a funny cost: You can Hybrid Cleric. Hear me out.

It fixes your AC, no Dex required. Take Battle Clerics Lore and you automatically get AC 19 at level 1. That's freaking amazing. Your AC will be on par with Fighters for the rest of your career. People warn you about hybrids and how they can be dangerous. So let's go over what you need to know about this hybrid.

What you lose:
1. A little bit of your man card. People will point and laugh at you, saying that you aren't a real Barbarian. Don't let their cruel words hurt you. Punch them in the face. Do it enough and the hate will stop.
2. An encounter power, a daily power, and a utility power. Of these, Cleric gives you a GREAT encounter power at level 1 (immediate interrupt attack), a GREAT daily at level 1 (Hammer of something-something; it lets you attack as a minor action. Off-action attacks are great), and BETTER utility powers at almost every level because WotC loves Clerics and Wizards.

BUT ... you lose a rage. Rages are fun. Even if that level 1 Cleric daily is better than most rages you'll get until level 100? Rages are fun. <cry>

And you'll notice that you get some fantastic powers at level 1. Cleric powers. At level 1. If you start at level 1, will you feel like much of a Barbarian? *Note: You can fix this by picking Barbarian powers and retraining them at level 3 and 5 to the appropriate Cleric powers.*
3. A feat. You now have to take a feat *at level 1 since this is your character concept*. It's Hybrid Talent. Use it to pick up Rageblood Vigor. Congrats!

What you gain:
1. More damage - that daily and encounter power are freaking awesome compared to the crap that Barbarians get in heroic tier.
2. MORE AC! - Seriously, scale mail + 2 shield bonus, even when using a 2-handed weapon, out of the gate? Most Barbarians will get something like AC 16. You'll be rocking a 19. You will survive so much more.
3. Higher Will defense! - Now that Dex isn't as important, you can afford to make Wis or Cha your secondary stat. Thank goodness. Superior Will, baby. You've got some important feats to take, so look for this one around level 8 or 10. But now its a lot less likely that you'll be taken out of a combat by some puny caster.
4. Some cool RP potential. After all, you angrily worship a god. hehehe.
5. A once-per-encounter heal. Haha. Your enemies have finally hit you enough that they've chewed through temporary hp after temporary hp. You are finally bloodied. Their end is nigh; they know that they have been defeated, but by god, they are going to take you with them. And they score a crit! FINALLY! They may just down you!

You scream at your god, demanding that he/she give you the strength to crush your enemies. Your god looks down upon you, terrified of angering you even further. He grants you your heal. You're no longer bloodied; your enemies subjugate themselves before you, offering up their first-borns and begging for your forgiveness. You show no mercy, for you are such an angry Barbarian that even a god listens to you once an encounter and heals you. Or someone else. Whatever. (Or you heal an ally by getting angry at them. Kinda cool flavor, too.)

This is one of those few hybrids where you get more than you lose. You DO lose a Rage which, well, I mean, that hurts. Rages are fun. And a feat. But that's pretty much it. And you gain so much.

If you do decide to go with a hybrid and you are fairly new to 4e, please stop by here for some advise. Its really hard to screw up this particular hybrid, but I'd feel bad if I suggested it and it somehow fell apart.

[DragonBaneDM]

insert cleric hybrid build here


I'm really really glad I read this thread.

[Tegu8788]

I played with one once, it was a great build, and made for an incredible Valkyrie type character.

[vasharanpaladin]

*advice based on pre-errata stuff*

Wow, it's really too bad they took that line out. Battlerager Vigor currently grants Conmod THPs on a miss with an Invigorating power and Conmod x2 THPs on a hit.

[eggabubu8e]

I can attest to tcrudisi's claim that Cleric /Barbarian works. For the past year and a half I have been playing a Goliath Cleric/Barbarian (now MC Fighter) that generated a lot of Temp hit points and abused chain killing to get more hp than I could ever need. But it got boring after a few levels and I decided to restructure my feats and stats and I found an even better cleric/barbarian combo that required me to change my hybrid talent feat. My DM ruled that the way the hybrid talent channel divinity feat for clerics worked it would allow me to choose any CD feat I wanted because I quote "This class feature functions as the cleric class feature, except that you start with a single cleric CD power of your choice". Now I know that you wanted to play a temp hp generator, but if you were open to other cleric/barbarian options consider taking the Hybrid talent CD feat, because if you worship Tempus, you get access to Righteous Rage of Tempus, a CD power that makes Barbarians incredibly powerful by allowing hits to turn into crits as a MINOR ACTION ENCOUNTER POWER, in practice it is just ridiculous how much damage this adds and how many turns it can potentially shave off.
Sorry if this was off topic I just wanted to point this potential build out as an option.:smalltongue:

[GPuzzle]

RRoT has been nerfed. Now the best way to pull off a max-crit is to go Divine Oracle, cast E11, use RRoT, AP, charge for a guaranteed max crit+double attack.

[Sol]

My DM ruled that the way the hybrid talent channel divinity feat for clerics worked it would allow me to choose any CD feat I wanted because I quote "This class feature functions as the cleric class feature, except that you start with a single cleric CD power of your choice". Now I know that you wanted to play a temp hp generator, but if you were open to other cleric/barbarian options consider taking the Hybrid talent CD feat, because if you worship Tempus, you get access to Righteous Rage of Tempus,

It's cool that your DM is letting you do that, but it's not even sort of following the rules. The key word is that with HT:CD you start with any cleric CD power. RRoT is not a cleric CD power, it's a feat CD power. Also, as mentioned, it was heavily hit with the nerf bat, though it's still very decent if you roll lots of dice.

[bloodshed343]

If you have the channel divinity class feature, you have access to righteous rage of tempus through the feat.

[Sol]

If you have the channel divinity class feature, you have access to righteous rage of tempus through the feat.

Yes. And if that's all he meant, disregard my last post. It looked to me like he said his DM let him have it for free as part of selecting hybrid talent: channel divinity