Achieve good dmg with swashbuckling rapier Rogue w/o Assisinate?

[odigity]

Friend of mine is playing a Half-Elf Rogue, planning to take Arcane Trickster to 5th, then add 8 levels of Fighter and 7 levels of either Bard or Warlock.

Problem is, all the Rogue builds with high DPR seem to either be two-weapon fighters, archers, or assassins. The last two don't fit the swashbuckler flavor, and the first one is problematic because it conflicts with spellcasting (unless you take War Caster), and also uses up your Bonus Action (he wants to use Cunning Action heavily for mobility), and even then only gives you one attack with less damage than your normal attack.

So, how does one beef up a solo rapier build without something out-of-character like Paladin smites?

[Rilak]

You go up to Fighter 11 or 12 for that extra attack. Sneak attacks add some damage, too.

[Yorrin]

Just because you have Assassin class features doesn't mean you have to roleplay as an Assassin. I think the archetype works perfectly fine for a Swashbuckler. That being said, if you don't like it, just go with a Rogue 2/Fighter X with expertise in Acrobatics.

[Demonic Spoon]

Just because you have Assassin class features doesn't mean you have to roleplay as an Assassin. I think the archetype works perfectly fine for a Swashbuckler. That being said, if you don't like it, just go with a Rogue 2/Fighter X with expertise in Acrobatics.

Assassin rewards skulking about and attacking from hiding, which isn't all that swashbuckler-y.

Is there any reason a straight DEX fighter wouldn't work for this?

[odigity]

Just because you have Assassin class features doesn't mean you have to roleplay as an Assassin.

True, but you still have to mechnically play like an assassin in order to benefit from it's sole mechnical contribution: Assassinate. Which is an ability that is all about a first-round nova when going solo. It's not a solution to doing decent sustained damage during combat.


Assassin rewards skulking about and attacking from hiding, which isn't all that swashbuckler-y.

He'll be doing some in-combat hiding as one way of activating sneak attack (also flanking, faerie faire, Feint maneuver, etc). It's swashbuckler-y in that it's an exercise of skill in place of brute force, just like jumping off a table or whatever. But that only gets you so far in the DPR game, especially when hiding takes actions.


You go up to Fighter 11 or 12 for that extra attack.

Extra attacks are nice, but without additional effects, that extra attack is still just a 1d8+5.


Sneak attacks add some damage, too.

Agreed. As currently planned, he'll have 3d6, which could be added once per round if conditions are met, or twice per round if he gets in a reaction attack with Riposte while conditions are met. Still somewhat limited. Getting more sneak attack helps in those situations, but doesn't help in non-sneak attack attacks, which are still the majority of attacks.

---

What ways are there to add damage to rapier attacks that are reasonably accessible and not totally out of character? I suggested Warlock as the third class instead of Bard because of Lifedrinker (+Cha with pact weapon) and Hex (+1d6 necrotic to hex target on each attack). But if he takes Warlock (which he's considering), then he wants the Chain boon to get a better familiar for scouting and combat assistance, which also makes sense.

[Finieous]

Agreed. As currently planned, he'll have 3d6, which could be added once per round if conditions are met, or twice per round if he gets in a reaction attack with Riposte while conditions are met. Still somewhat limited. Getting more sneak attack helps in those situations, but doesn't help in non-sneak attack attacks, which are still the majority of attacks.


* Shield Master + Athletics Expertise + Sneak Attack
* Sentinel + Sneak Attack
* Riposte + Sneak Attack

Otherwise, maximizing standard attacks, you're down to spells (hex, hunter's mark) and a few class abilities (smite, colossus slayer) that you indicate would be out of character.

[edge2054]

He'll be doing some in-combat hiding as one way of activating sneak attack (also flanking, faerie faire, Feint maneuver, etc). It's swashbuckler-y in that it's an exercise of skill in place of brute force, just like jumping off a table or whatever. But that only gets you so far in the DPR game, especially when hiding takes actions.

Bonus actions for the rogue. But hiding in combat is pretty hard without being a halfling, the skulker feat, or being a wood elf while in a natural setting.

That said if he can manage to get advantage every turn not making two attacks isn't that big of a deal. Once he's high enough level Versatile Trickster can give advantage via mage hand (13th... which is pretty high). A much faster, though cheesier, alternative is to pick up an owl familiar at level three and have it help him.

Drawing an offhand weapon is free as is dropping it. So he can always offhand a dagger when he's not using his bonus actions for other things and drop it when he wants to cast a spell.

[Easy_Lee]

Taking levels of warlock at the right time can net you thirsting blade and lifedrinker (extra attack and cha to damage respectively). I'd submit that both are mandatory for a rogue/warlock who doesn't get extra attack somewhere else.

[edge2054]

Taking levels of warlock at the right time can net you thirsting blade and lifedrinker (extra attack and cha to damage respectively). I'd submit that both are mandatory for a rogue/warlock who doesn't get extra attack somewhere else.

I can totally imagine the swashbuckler who sold his soul for a demon blade too. Reminds me of soul caliber.

[Scirocco]

I can totally imagine the swashbuckler who sold his soul for a demon blade too. Reminds me of soul caliber.

Thirsting blade + TWF + something == Cervantes?

[Shadow]

Am I the only one that's questioning the need for Bard or Warlock here?
For this concept (being a magical swashbuckler-ish Rogue with some Fighter) I'd just make a Battle Master 3 (or 4 or 5) / Arcane Trickster 17 (or 16 or 15).
BM maneuvers: disarming, feinting, riposte (choose 2)
Dueling style (or possibly Defense).
Eventually spend a feat on Martial Adept for 1 more SupDie, grab the other maneuver that you didn't choose before and 1 more (trip).
Lucky is almost a no brainer for a swashbuckler.
Possibly Defensive Duelist (better than Uncanny Dodge if that attack was in your proficiency range).
Crossbow Expert would also be extremely thematic for a magical swashbuckling type (which is why I mentioned Defense style). Using a rapier and a handbow whilst catsing (your extremely limited) spells would be awesome. Even better if you can talk your DM into letting you find a craftsman to design a wrist mounted handbow on a bracer.
Warcaster isn't even needed. Bonus action Disengage, move out of reach (and sheathe your rapier), cast. On the next round, you can draw your blade again as part of the attack. So Warcaster isn't needed because Cunning Action Disengage works just as well. You just won't be able to take OAs in the same round that you cast because you sheathed your weapon.
(edit: or sheathe the handbow and still get OAs if they trigger)

That's 2-4 feats out of your 5 (or 6) ASIs, depending on what you want to do with it.
I'd go with Crossbow Expert (while trying to talk the DM into the bracer/handbow thing, just because it's cool), Martial Adept, and Lucky, in that order if possible.

1d8+5 (rapier) +8or9d6 (sneak attack) +1d6+5 (bonus action handbow, applies SA if rapier misses)
If you went to 5th level fighter, you'd get another 1d8+5 rapier attack.
It's not the best, but it's still pretty damned good, and it holds true to the flavor you want.
And if the rapier hits, save your bonus action for cunning action fun.

Feinting allows sneak attack when you're fighting 1v1.
Tripping allows sneak attack when you're fighting 1v1 (if used with the xbow attack first or with action surge) and offers a little BF control.
Riposte and Uncanny Dodge create a situation where, once per turn, anytime someone rolls an attack against you you can either choose to take half damage or OA (with SA if anyone else is in melee or if the attacker is prone [or whatever for Adv] - which increases your potential DPR).
And this whole thing works better if you drop the magical theme and go Thief rogue, as every one of the Thief's abilities (with the exception of supreme sneak) fits the theme perfectly, but here's the best one:
Disarm > bonus cunning action use object > kick the weapon away so he can't pick it up.

And you're doing all of that stuff with a rapier / handbow combo.
If that doesn't sound swashbuckly, I don't know what does.

[Person_Man]

My 2cp:

Evasion is an extremely potent ability. So it seems odd to me to go Rogue 5 and not Rogue 7 (which would also give him another 1d6 Sneak Attack and 2 more Expertise Skills).

If your DM plans to use magic items, Thief Rogue is a perfectly viable option, because Fast Hands lets them Use an Object as a Bonus Action. Rapier + Sneak Attack + Wand or whatever could be crazy effective.

5E multi-classing in general has lots and lots of trap options. For example, strait Rogue (of any subclass) has excellent at-will damage output, thanks to fully scaled Sneak Attack. But once you start mucking around in other classes, it starts falling off. So any benefit gained from Extra Attack or Fighting Style or whatever is pretty much off-set by the proportionate decrease in Sneak Attack dice, AND you're denying yourself access to higher level class abilities like Evasion, Elusive, and Stroke of Luck, for more limited use abilities like Action Surge or low level spells or whatever.

Strait Valor Bard seems like a better option for what this player wants. The fluff is very swashbuckling, Bard gets Expertise and Inspiration, and a Bard's spells can provide excellent bonus damage and other effects. (In particular, you can cherry pick the Paladin's Smite spells or Ranger's archery spells).

[Easy_Lee]

If your DM plans to use magic items, Thief Rogue is a perfectly viable option, because Fast Hands lets them Use an Object as a Bonus Action. Rapier + Sneak Attack + Wand or whatever could be crazy effective.

WoTC actually said fast hands doesn't work with wands, recently. It's a terrible ruling, and many are going to straight ignore it. But don't count on fast hands wands working until you check it with your DM.

[edge2054]

My 2cp:

Evasion is an extremely potent ability. So it seems odd to me to go Rogue 5 and not Rogue 7 (which would also give him another 1d6 Sneak Attack and 2 more Expertise Skills).

If your DM plans to use magic items, Thief Rogue is a perfectly viable option, because Fast Hands lets them Use an Object as a Bonus Action. Rapier + Sneak Attack + Wand or whatever could be crazy effective.

I actually agree with you and play a straight rogue myself.

That said Thief is probably the worst rogue archetype as Fast Hands is very limited in scope. Jeremy Crawford told me yesterday that Use an Object will not cover using magical items. That this will be clarified in the DMG and that Fast Hands is even mentioned specifically.

So Rapier + Sneak Attack + Wand won't work. Which really devalues Use Magic Device as well (why take the staves, wands, and scrolls when you could sneak attack and leave those items instead for the classes that need to conserve resources?).

To add insult to injury, just about everything that you can do with Fast Hands can be done with Mage Hand Legerdemain, but at a range of 30'.

The only saving grace for Thief is Supreme Sneak and Thief's Reflexis. Which I don't think compare with the spellcasting ability of the Arcane Trickster.

So for a pure rogue, I think AT is easily a better choice over the Thief at this point (before I tweeted Jeremy yesterday I would have said otherwise).

[Person_Man]

That said Thief is probably the worst rogue archetype as Fast Hands is very limited in scope. Jeremy Crawford told me yesterday that Use an Object will not cover using magical items. That this will be clarified in the DMG and that Fast Hands is even mentioned specifically.

It was already a terrible decision to make a subclass with Use Magic Device as a class ability the default Basic option when the default Basic option does not include magic items. But completely nerfing Fast Hands so that it can't be used with Magic Items is a terrible, terrible decision. I intend to ignore it.

Can someone start a Twitter campaign (or whatever the kids are doing now a days) to save Fast Hands?

[Finieous]

5E multi-classing in general has lots and lots of trap options. For example, strait Rogue (of any subclass) has excellent at-will damage output, thanks to fully scaled Sneak Attack. But once you start mucking around in other classes, it starts falling off. So any benefit gained from Extra Attack or Fighting Style or whatever is pretty much off-set by the proportionate decrease in Sneak Attack dice, AND you're denying yourself access to higher level class abilities like Evasion, Elusive, and Stroke of Luck, for more limited use abilities like Action Surge or low level spells or whatever.


True that a straight rogue can probably deal about as much damage to one target as a fighter-rogue, as long as he can sneak attack. But the fighter-rogue can kill an enemy (first attack), swing across to the other ship (Cunning Action, Fast Hands), kill two more guys (second and third attack), then riposte/sneak attack to kill a fourth guy while the rogue is still trying to pull his rapier out of the first guy's back. You know, swashbuckling. :)

[Person_Man]

True that a straight rogue can probably deal about as much damage to one target as a fighter-rogue, as long as he can sneak attack. But the fighter-rogue can kill an enemy (first attack), swing across to the other ship (Cunning Action, Fast Hands), kill two more guys (second and third attack), then riposte/sneak attack to kill a fourth guy while the rogue is still trying to pull his rapier out of the first guy's back. You know, swashbuckling. :)

That's a very niche situation you just described.

First, I've played an Assassin Rogue extensively, and I have yet to come across a situation where Fast Hands would have been a useful ability to have. (Other then to activate a Magic Item, which apparently is not RAI). The basic versatile nature of movement, free actions, and the theater of the mind in 5E, when added to the flexibility from Cunning Action, makes you capable of getting pretty much anywhere you need to be on the battlefield on each of your turns.

Second, remember that Sneak Attack only applies once per turn, regardless of how many attacks you have. So being able to target multiple different enemies per turn with weapon attacks (as opposed to area of effect spells, which deal a lot more damage) is only useful if those enemies are mooks that you can kill with one attack.

Also, if I want to target enemies in three different places on the battlefield, then I want to use a ranged weapon, cantrip, or spell. There is no benefit to moving next to an enemy to attack them with a melee weapon, other then the fact that it allows Rogues to more easily trigger Sneak Attack (from "flanking") and for heavy weapon builds to use Great Weapon Master Feat in situations where the Sharpshooter Feat wouldn't apply.

[Easy_Lee]

Also, if I want to target enemies in three different places on the battlefield, then I want to use a ranged weapon, cantrip, or spell. There is no benefit to moving next to an enemy to attack them with a melee weapon, other then the fact that it allows Rogues to more easily trigger Sneak Attack (from "flanking") and for heavy weapon builds to use Great Weapon Master Feat in situations where the Sharpshooter Feat wouldn't apply.

The wording of SA says once per turn, not round, so technically it works with OA's when the conditions are met. So up to two SA's per round. Also, it says that you get it if another non-incapacitated enemy of the target is within 5'. You can keep a familiar in your pocket and always get SA, RAW.

[Finieous]

That's a very niche situation you just described.


For a swashbuckler? Really? I think it's completely typical for a swashbuckler.



First, I've played an Assassin Rogue extensively, and I have yet to come across a situation where Fast Hands would have been a useful ability to have. (Other then to activate a Magic Item, which apparently is not RAI). The basic versatile nature of movement, free actions, and the theater of the mind in 5E, when added to the flexibility from Cunning Action, makes you capable of getting pretty much anywhere you need to be on the battlefield on each of your turns.


Okay, I think it would be useful for doing swashbuckly things like swinging on ropes, pulling ropes to drop chandeliers on people's heads, pulling the rug out from under them, etc. But it's really not required for my point about fighter-rogues vs. pure rogues, if you hate fun.



Second, remember that Sneak Attack only applies once per turn, regardless of how many attacks you have. So being able to target multiple different enemies per turn with weapon attacks (as opposed to area of effect spells, which deal a lot more damage) is only useful if those enemies are mooks that you can kill with one attack.


Right. And after all, how many swashbuckling set piece battles have you wading through mooks before the showdown duel with the villain? Oh yeah...pretty much all of them. Actually, I think it's mandatory.



Also, if I want to target enemies in three different places on the battlefield, then I want to use a ranged weapon, cantrip, or spell.


That doesn't sound like a swashbuckler to me. In any case, how does your pure rogue target three separate enemies at once with a ranged weapon?



There is no benefit to moving next to an enemy to attack them with a melee weapon, other then the fact that it allows Rogues to more easily trigger Sneak Attack (from "flanking") and for heavy weapon builds to use Great Weapon Master Feat in situations where the Sharpshooter Feat wouldn't apply.

This is incorrect. The benefit is that you can engage the villain before he pushes the damsel off the plank into the ocean. Or you can test your swordsmanship against the villain in an honorable duel on the edge of a cliff. Or you can repel boarders while your ship drifts in an eerie fog that restricts visibility to a few feet. Or, I suppose, because you are a warrior and master swordsman who stands in the front rank and defends the helpless and squishy, including spellcasters and pure rogues. :)

(Less importantly, being in melee lets you knock the enemy prone with your Shield Master feat, and use your reaction every round -- Uncanny Dodge if the opponent attacks you, Sentinel reaction sneak attack if the opponent attacks your ally. But really, it's more about the duel with the villain on a cliff.)

[Tenmujiin]

Crossbow Expert would also be extremely thematic for a magical swashbuckling type (which is why I mentioned Defense style). Using a rapier and a handbow whilst catsing (your extremely limited) spells would be awesome. Even better if you can talk your DM into letting you find a craftsman to design a wrist mounted handbow on a bracer..

I will now be running Corvo as my next charcter.

[silveralen]

Friend of mine is playing a Half-Elf Rogue, planning to take Arcane Trickster to 5th, then add 8 levels of Fighter and 7 levels of either Bard or Warlock.

Problem is, all the Rogue builds with high DPR seem to either be two-weapon fighters, archers, or assassins. The last two don't fit the swashbuckler flavor, and the first one is problematic because it conflicts with spellcasting (unless you take War Caster), and also uses up your Bonus Action (he wants to use Cunning Action heavily for mobility), and even then only gives you one attack with less damage than your normal attack.

So, how does one beef up a solo rapier build without something out-of-character like Paladin smites?

Well, he is fighter so he has dueling and he gets two attacks per round, plus sneak attack.

Really what is hurting his potential DPR are those last 7 levels of warlock/bard, and taking fighter to 8 rather than 11. Unless he is getting thirsting blade by using class rather than warlock level (in which case he only needs 3 levels) it isn't real clear what he is trying to do there. Of course, just spamming eldritch blast with a 20 charisma is going to get him decent DPR since cantrips scale on character level, but it doesn't seem very swashbuckler.

So yeah, ditch the extra class and take 9 rogue 11 fighter. That's 5d6 sneak attack and 3*1d8+7 (plus any magical effects) per turn. That's fairly reasonable, he will have fairly good DPR even without advantage, though if he grabs a buckler and shield master he can get that sneak attack damage every round. A reasonable DM would probably allow him to use shield master's abilities when wielding a one handed weapon and no shield, making it more about fighting in an agile/mobile manner, given that it wouldn't have any major benefit besides spell casting.

If he is allowed to grab life drinker at lvl 3 of warlock, instead I'd recommend rogue 5, fighter 11, warlock 4. That's only 3d6 sneak attack, but he had 3*1d8+12, assuming he can max charisma and dexterity and the DM allows it, which a lot probably will not as it's going to be potentially beating everything that isn't a pure fighter in DPR.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, he is fighter so he has dueling and he gets two attacks per round, plus sneak attack.

Really what is hurting his potential DPR are those last 7 levels of warlock/bard, and taking fighter to 8 rather than 11. Unless he is getting thirsting blade by using class rather than warlock level (in which case he only needs 3 levels) it isn't real clear what he is trying to do there. Of course, just spamming eldritch blast with a 20 charisma is going to get him decent DPR since cantrips scale on character level, but it doesn't seem very swashbuckler.

So yeah, ditch the extra class and take 9 rogue 11 fighter. That's 5d6 sneak attack and 3*1d8+7 (plus any magical effects) per turn. That's fairly reasonable, he will have fairly good DPR even without advantage, though if he grabs a buckler and shield master he can get that sneak attack damage every round. A reasonable DM would probably allow him to use shield master's abilities when wielding a one handed weapon and no shield, making it more about fighting in an agile/mobile manner, given that it wouldn't have any major benefit besides spell casting.

If he is allowed to grab life drinker at lvl 3 of warlock, instead I'd recommend rogue 5, fighter 11, warlock 4. That's only 3d6 sneak attack, but he had 3*1d8+12, assuming he can max charisma and dexterity and the DM allows it, which a lot probably will not as it's going to be potentially beating everything that isn't a pure fighter in DPR.

Build is going to suffer at certain levels regardless, the crux of multiclassing. I think getting just enough levels of fighter for duelist, feint, and one extra attack would suit the build fine, though I generally prefer pure rogues personally for max SA. Alternatively, get just enough levels of rogue for the stuff you need, then go fighter for the rest.

Could probably fluff the shield as a parrying dagger if he wants a shield. If he gets shield master, he doesn't need evasion from rogue.

[silveralen]

Build is going to suffer at certain levels regardless, the crux of multiclassing. I think getting just enough levels of fighter for duelist, feint, and one extra attack would suit the build fine, though I generally prefer pure rogues personally for max SA. Alternatively, get just enough levels of rogue for the stuff you need, then go fighter for the rest.

Could probably fluff the shield as a parrying dagger if he wants a shield. If he gets shield master, he doesn't need evasion from rogue.

Rogue actually is one of the more multiclass friendly classes though, as SA grows every other level, rather than the non stacking buffs to damage most melee classes get at 5 and 11.

2 attacks and focusing on sneak attack would be viable as well, but didn't seem to fit as well thematically.

[Easy_Lee]

Rogue actually is one of the more multiclass friendly classes though, as SA grows every other level, rather than the non stacking buffs to damage most melee classes get at 5 and 11.

2 attacks and focusing on sneak attack would be viable as well, but didn't seem to fit as well thematically.

Said another way, every two levels of rogue you spend elsewhere gives up 1D6 sneak attack and, usually, a class feature. It's kind of like monk in that regard; you always have to give up major resources by multiclassing. Rogue's more of a class you dip into, not out of, IMO.

[Shadow]

I will now be running Corvo as my next charcter.

I had to Google that to figure out the reference, as I haven't played it. He doesn't "sound" very swashbuckler-esque in personality (that may have just been lost in translation), but he certainly fits the bill in his style.

[silveralen]

Said another way, every two levels of rogue you spend elsewhere gives up 1D6 sneak attack and, usually, a class feature. It's kind of like monk in that regard; you always have to give up major resources by multiclassing. Rogue's more of a class you dip into, not out of, IMO.

In either case you aren't gaining redundant features, namely the non stacking extra attacks. A five level dip out of rogue loses 2d6-3d6 sneak attack but gets you an extra attack at 1d8+5 (before counting magic weapons) and a second chance to proc sneak attack if you miss. If you can sneak attack every turn and never miss you still lose only a point of average damage per turn, otherwise it is outright superior. If we consider the rogue is dipping into fighter and grabs dueling it overall improves his damage even if he always has advantage, same for a duel wield rogue. The extra ability score at 10 means the 15/5 doesn't even set you back compared to most classes.

The only things I'd be upset about delaying are versatile trickster and slippery mind, and those really depend alot on the table in question (teamwork, the sort of enemies you encounter, how easy it is to gain advantage via stealth etc).