[PF] Dual shield fighter help needed

[skypse]

Hello Giants!

I am trying to create a character for a new campaign I am thinking of joining. The campaign is custom, Core/Advanced/Ultimate are allowed, no 3rd party, no campaign path books.

The concept I am thinking of, is taken from the video game Smite and it has to do with the God Cabrakan (http://www.hirezstudios.com/smite/nav/game-info/gods/god-info?god=2008) .

The specific God mainly fights using dual shields. He also uses his shields to alter the terrain around him but this isn't had to do in pathfinder. There is a Barbie archetype with the exact same effect. I wanna focus on the shields.

I have no idea if it is possible for a character to wield 2 shields and fight with them as per 2 weapon fighting, but I can't find any rulling against it. So I would like some tips on what I could do and if it is at all possible. Keep in mind that I am thinking of going high CON/DEX and thinking of getting the Stalwart Defender prestige later on.

Campaign starts level 5, 25point buy. Please advice. Thanks in advance.

[Spore]

Well, a shield is never a light weapon so you'd get penalties if you do not use at least a buckler in one hand.

[skypse]

What about a light shield? :)

Heavy Mithral Spiked Shield on primary hand, Light Mithral Spiked Shield on secondary.

Check this out. I tried to create something fast now.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvzhi1z6oqtjeg6/Cabrakan%201st%20try.pdf?dl=0

[The Random NPC]

Take Shield Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final) at 11th level, it removes all penalties to attack when Two-weapon Fighting with a shield.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The thread's gotten kind of dated by now, but still has lots of useful info: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?308795-Dual-Shield-Ranger-build-help

Basically, I suggest going Ranger 6 with Weapon and Shield style, and end up fighting with a pair of spiked Bashing heavy shields. Nabs Shield Slam at 2 (4 levels early) and Shield Master at 6 (5 levels early). From there...do whatever you want. Brawler archetype Fighter is tempting, but by RAW gloves of dueling don't work w/ its weapon training replacement, making it ultimately subpar. Lore Warden archetype Fighter is solid in general and will boost bull rush even more (along w/ all maneuvers). Maybe go with the new Brawler class, or Inquisitor (wisdom synergy w/ ranger; you can go some nice things w/ Solo Tactics).
Or stick with Ranger, though past 6 it's less impressive. Bashing Finish at 10 is only 1 level early and is only on criticals (so it's best to use w/ a "main hand: spiked bashing shield, off-hand kukri" type setup).

The idea behind my build is to team up w/ a battlefield control or area damage over time type caster, and use your "lots of attacks, all with bull rush attached to them" to force people back into the "mire of suck" the caster creates. Even if you don't do that, the fundamentals of Ranger 6 and some of the later mentioned feats like Squash Flat will likely be handy.

EDIT: I'd suggest prioritizing strength and only taking as much dex as you need for the TWF feats (admittedly, that's a lot, though magic items can help boost dex up too). Con isn't unimportant, but you should have high enough AC to not get hit as much. Shield AC may not stack for both shields, but you still *have* that shield bonus to AC and all the reason in the world to get them to +5 as soon as possible since it's also applying offensively.

[The Random NPC]

Brawler is a pretty decent class for this, it has a shield related Archetype, and Brawler's Flurry grants Two-weapon Fighting with the close weapon group. Also, if you do grab Shield Champion, you'll eventually be doing 2d10 with your shields. If you do decide to go Shield Champion, don't get Bashing put on your shield, as it will just delay the damage from Flurry. Or get Bashing and replace it when your Flurry catches up.

[grarrrg]

Thttp://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?308795-Dual-Shield-Ranger-build-help

Mostly what he said.


If you do decide to go Shield Champion, don't get Bashing put on your shield, as it will just delay the damage from Flurry. Or get Bashing and replace it when your Flurry catches up.

So...just go ahead and do whatever anyway?

Do note, that the Shield Champion is not restricted to using Flurry to replace the damage of their shield.
At level 5 they gain Close Weapon Mastery, which lets them use their Unarmed damage (with -4 level penalty) with any "close group" weapons.
And at level 12 they can use their Unarmed damage (no level penalty) with any/all Shields.
And Brawlers Flurry is effectively TWF, but you can use a Single weapon for all attacks.

Pre-level 10 build, Ranger is probably better, as you can get the sweet, sweet Shield Master feat online earlier.
After level 10 build, I'm kinda liking Brawler (with-or-without the Shield Champion archetype).

[The Random NPC]

So...just go ahead and do whatever anyway?

Basically, but I recommend not getting Bashing to save money.


And Brawlers Flurry is effectively TWF, but you can use a Single weapon for all attacks.

Interestingly, Brawlers actually have TWF while Flurrying, they just lose it when they stop.

EDIT: I just remembered I had made a thread about the Shield Champion, here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369797-Brawler-Shield-Champion), though we've covered most of that thread.

[Crimson Wolf]

I would suggest taking prideful flaw to gain another trait for your character. Also there is a feat bashing finish, free shield bash after each crit you do. Missile shield would be good to deflect a range hit against you. Of course take all the fighter weapon focus and specialization feats for shield. Shield master to take all negatives away for TWF. If you have an ally with you using shields go with Shield wall to further increase your living chances, but only if an ally is going shield route too. The extra trait you can get can be Shield Bearer if you wanna protect your ally while still keeping your shield bonus and also get a bonus point of damage on your bash attacks.

Edit: Whoops accidently hit submit before I was done.

[skypse]

Ok so 6 levels of ranger save me the trouble of going for mithral shields and light shield on my off hand as well as 11BAB for the best shield feat ever. But how can I increase the damage dice on the shields so much? Also, I notice that noone cared to comment on the Stalwart Defender thing. Is this because you are mainly focusing on damage builts or is the prestige THAT bad? :D

I have to add here that I don't really care about being the main dps in the party as long as I am the annoying-undying dude with the big shields pushing people around on the battlefield. After all I believe that battlefield control will always beat high dmg fights.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok so 6 levels of ranger save me the trouble of going for mithral shields and light shield on my off hand as well as 11BAB for the best shield feat ever. But how can I increase the damage dice on the shields so much? Also, I notice that noone cared to comment on the Stalwart Defender thing. Is this because you are mainly focusing on damage builts or is the prestige THAT bad? :D

I have to add here that I don't really care about being the main dps in the party as long as I am the annoying-undying dude with the big shields pushing people around on the battlefield. After all I believe that battlefield control will always beat high dmg fights.

The PrC isn't that good, and in general offensive abilities are usually better than defense. (And it's a lot cheaper to boost defense via magic items than offense [so many different types of AC bonus; cloak of minor displacement, etc..], class features and feats tend to go the opposite way.) In any case, what's the problem? You can't PrC at level 1 anyway, so just do Ranger 6 then go into it if you like it. The Ranger build is nice precisely b/c you get all that you need right around the time all the fighter PrC's start to become available.

You won't do a lot of damage with the shields, but with Bashing and spiked, you'll at least have 2d6 base damage (it's more the fact that they're so simple to add and increase damage by like +5 or so on average that it's a no-brainer, not because we think it'll make you a dps monster), and high str will help, too. You want high str no matter what, it affects chance to hit and bull rushing, not just damage. Whether your goal is control or dps, strength is what you need.

Sidenote: I have no idea where you were going w/ the mithral shields thing. Mithral doesn't make a weapon a lighter category for wielding, that was never an option to you, if that's what you were thinking. Mithral would remove all check penalty from skills, which might be worthwhile, but that's about it. That and beating silver DR, but I'm really not sure if mithral shield, paying the +1000 gp for it as a shield also confers mithral weapon benefits. I mean, it makes sense logically, but I don't know if that is "RAW."


An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed).

[skypse]

The PrC isn't that good, and in general offensive abilities are usually better than defense. (And it's a lot cheaper to boost defense via magic items than offense [so many different types of AC bonus; cloak of minor displacement, etc..], class features and feats tend to go the opposite way.) In any case, what's the problem? You can't PrC at level 1 anyway, so just do Ranger 6 then go into it if you like it. The Ranger build is nice precisely b/c you get all that you need right around the time all the fighter PrC's start to become available.
It's not that I don't like the ranger. I just have imagined the character a bit more "brute" than a ranger (that's why I also gave the example of Cabrakan) and I wanna check if there's any other paths to follow instead of full ranger. Something more "flavourful" let's say..




You won't do a lot of damage with the shields, but with Bashing and spiked, you'll at least have 2d6 base damage (it's more the fact that they're so simple to add and increase damage by like +5 or so on average that it's a no-brainer, not because we think it'll make you a dps monster), and high str will help, too. You want high str no matter what, it affects chance to hit and bull rushing, not just damage. Whether your goal is control or dps, strength is what you need.


A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

Still can't see where the 2d6 comes from.



Sidenote: I have no idea where you were going w/ the mithral shields thing. Mithral doesn't make a weapon a lighter category for wielding, that was never an option to you, if that's what you were thinking. Mithral would remove all check penalty from skills, which might be worthwhile, but that's about it. That and beating silver DR, but I'm really not sure if mithral shield, paying the +1000 gp for it as a shield also confers mithral weapon benefits. I mean, it makes sense logically, but I don't know if that is "RAW."

Mithral removes check penalties and it is a pretty cheap boost for the begining if you combine it with armor mastery trait and the fact that Medium armor can really screw my skill ranks. At the time I was also thinking that since I won't have a high STR score, half weight would be pretty useful :D

[StreamOfTheSky]

Adding spikes to a shield further increases its size by 1, so the 1d8 of Bashing goes to 2d6.

I don't see why Ranger can't be "brutish". It's a full BAB d10 HD class with good fort saves, and a nature / shun-civilization theme built in. It's certainly more brutish than Fighter, only class that's more so would be Barbarian, if you want to limit your options that starkly.
If you want something more interesting, there's Soulknife with archetypes for created mind armor and one for creating a mind shield, the latter getting some unique blade skills to use the shield. But you said no 3rd party, which psionics sadly is. I'm guessing Path of War also has some cool shield goodies if your DM allows it in.

If your main concern is weight and check penalty, it'd be much less expensive to just get Darkwood heavy shields than mithral.

[skypse]

I don't see why Ranger can't be "brutish". It's a full BAB d10 HD class with good fort saves, and a nature / shun-civilization theme built in. It's certainly more brutish than Fighter, only class that's more so would be Barbarian, if you want to limit your options that starkly.
If you want something more interesting, there's Soulknife with archetypes for created mind armor and one for creating a mind shield, the latter getting some unique blade skills to use the shield. But you said no 3rd party, which psionics sadly is. I'm guessing Path of War also has some cool shield goodies if your DM allows it in.

What is your opinion on this? 6lvl Ranger (no animal companion), 4 levels Fighter (brawler for the bonuses) and 10 levels of this Prestige (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/ulfen-guard)

[grarrrg]

What is your opinion on this? 6lvl Ranger (no animal companion), 4 levels Fighter (brawler for the bonuses) and 10 levels of this Prestige (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/ulfen-guard)

That prestige is solid enough.
But there is still the question of "why not just go Barbarian?" Unless you're planning to be Lawful-alignment, you're probably better off just going Barb.

[skypse]

This is something I need help with. I know that I can only take 1 favoured class bonus (unless I am half elf) but this doesn't apply on prestige. That's why I wanna go with a PrC. If my DM lets this go by, I would go pure barbie.

[grarrrg]

I don't see why Ranger can't be "brutish". It's a full BAB d10 HD class with good fort saves, and a nature / shun-civilization theme built in.
I'd like to suggest the Wild Stalker archetype here, but it trades away the bonus Feats, so it wouldn't work for this build.


This is something I need help with. I know that I can only take 1 favoured class bonus (unless I am half elf) but this doesn't apply on prestige. That's why I wanna go with a PrC. If my DM lets this go by, I would go pure barbie.

:smallconfused:
I'm kinda confused here now...
(we're going to ignore Half-Elves and similar for now)

Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement)
You can only ever have 1 Favored Class.
That Favored Class can NOT be a Prestige Class.

So going Ranger 6/Fighter 4/PrC 10 gets you at most 6 levels of Favored Bonuses (from Ranger).
Going Pure [any class] 20 you would get 20 levels of Favored Bonuses.
Going Ranger 6/Fighter 14 would get you at most 14 levels of Favored Bonuses.

[JusticeZero]

Honestly, two shield is a bit goofy as well as being system difficult - it's much easier to do two handed shield.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Honestly, two shield is a bit goofy as well as being system difficult - it's much easier to do two handed shield.

I helped a current party member come up with a 2-Shield build as well. He's generally finding it to be more effective to simply Two-Hand a single shield.

[grarrrg]

Honestly, two shield is a bit goofy as well as being system difficult - it's much easier to do two handed shield.

But...but...number of attacks...
(and there's that feat that gives you bonuses when you get a Critical, it works MUCH better with the increased attacks/chances of Two-Weapon)

[skypse]

:smallconfused:
I'm kinda confused here now...


Yeah sorry I wrote it completely wrong. I wanted to say that I am worried about the fact that the non-favoured classes have lower xp progression than the favoured classes. Which (in my little, confused head) means that if I need (let's say) 100 xp to go from lvl 6 (insert favoured class) to lvl 7 (insert favoured class) I would need more than 100 to go from lvl 6 (insert favoured class) to lvl 7 (insert random non-favoured class). PrC however as far as I know is unnafected by this. So I am looking for a PrC that sattisfies me and covers the "flavour" of the built in order not to stall in my overall level progression.

In case that this whole logic is wrong, please forgive me for wasting your time on explaining to me the correct one :D

EDIT: 2-handed shield is lame and doesn't fit the character. If I could do this with FCKNG DUAL TOWER SHIELDS I would :D

[grarrrg]

Yeah sorry I wrote it completely wrong. I wanted to say that I am worried about the fact that the non-favoured classes have lower xp progression than the favoured classes.

In case that this whole logic is wrong, please forgive me for wasting your time on explaining to me the correct one :D

Your logic is fine, but you have the wrong game.

3.5 has XP penalties for multi-classing with non-favored classes.

PF does NOT have any penalties for Multi-classing. Instead they have minor bonuses for sticking with just 1 class.

[skypse]

Oh I see... Thanks for the clarification. This helps things quite a bit. So I guess I'll go 6 ranger, 4 brawler fighter and 10 barbie.

Now that I come to think of it, (although I think I already know the answer), will I be able to use Titan Mauler and Jotungrip class feature to dual-wield 2 LARGE shields? (idk if they exist at all but it is worth the try considering the Shield Mastery feat)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Oh I see... Thanks for the clarification. This helps things quite a bit. So I guess I'll go 6 ranger, 4 brawler fighter and 10 barbie.

Now that I come to think of it, (although I think I already know the answer), will I be able to use Titan Mauler and Jotungrip class feature to dual-wield 2 LARGE shields? (idk if they exist at all but it is worth the try considering the Shield Mastery feat)

Jotungrip looks largely useless, it's ONLY to use a 2h weapon of your size in 1h, nothing else. I'd ignore that archetype entirely.
You can use the Lead Blades ranger spell to make your shields large for damage, though.

[skypse]

Yeah but if there is any 2h shield wouldn't it make sense that it makes more than the 1h shield dmg? So if I could fight with 2 of them with Jotungrip, if I add up all the properties and the lvl1 ranger spell, it would result in 3d8 or maybe more :D

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah but if there is any 2h shield wouldn't it make sense that it makes more than the 1h shield dmg? So if I could fight with 2 of them with Jotungrip, if I add up all the properties and the lvl1 ranger spell, it would result in 3d8 or maybe more :D

The problem is that Jotungrip itself doesn't make sense and is poorly written, albeit intentionally, to do almost nothing. The archetype is fluffed as weilding ridiculous anime-sized swords. And indeed, a large 1H weapon not only has a size penalty but takes up 2H for a medium user. But the thing to use a 2H weapon in 1H (Jotungrip) in the archetype fluffed around using Cloud Strife's sword...restricts you to weapons of your size.

Ask the DM for a houserule, or move on, because unfortunately Jotungrip wasn't designed to be sensible or particularly useful.

[NightbringerGGZ]

If you want to boot the damage dice of your shield, there's a ton of things you can do without resorting to oversized weapons.

Shield Spikes - Cost 10g to add to a shield, increase the damage dice by 1 size category and can be enchanted separately from the shield itself.

Bashing (Armor Property) - A +1 Armor Property that increases the damage dice of your shield by 2 size categories. Shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash.

Impact (Weapon Property) - A +2 Weapon Property that increases damage dice by 1 size category. Also you gain the weapon's enhancement bonus on Bullrush attempts.

Lead Blades - A ranger spell that boosts weapon damage by another 1 size category.

Enlarge Humanoid - A staple buffing spell that actually boosts your size category. Buy a wand for a buddy and have him cast it on you each combat.

Note, Shield Spikes + Bashing is the most economical during early game play. For 4180 gold you get a +1 Shield and a +1 2d6 weapon in the same hand.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Impact sounds way overpriced for normal use. That said, w/ shield master, you're using the shield's AC enhancement for attack/damage, so later on tacking on an actual weapon enhancement of +1 impact for 18,000 gp might be worth it. Only because you'll never have to enhance it again.

The other option is to just find bonus sources of damage, like Sneak Attack from a Vivisectionist Alchemist multiclass or something. Can use Mutagen to boost Strength more, too.

[skypse]

The problem is that Jotungrip itself doesn't make sense and is poorly written, albeit intentionally, to do almost nothing. The archetype is fluffed as weilding ridiculous anime-sized swords. And indeed, a large 1H weapon not only has a size penalty but takes up 2H for a medium user. But the thing to use a 2H weapon in 1H (Jotungrip) in the archetype fluffed around using Cloud Strife's sword...restricts you to weapons of your size.

Ask the DM for a houserule, or move on, because unfortunately Jotungrip wasn't designed to be sensible or particularly useful.

Longsword: 1h weapon, 1d8 dmg. 19-20 x2
Elven Curve Blade: 2h weapon, 1d10 dmg. 18-20 x2

With Jotungrip I can wield 2 Curve Blades so I can have 2 weapons that deal 1d10 each instead of 2 weaps with 1d8 each. Who doesn't like this?

So in case there is a 2h shield that deals (let's say) 1d6 dmg on its own, instead of the 1d4 that the 1h shield deals, when I put on properties that increase the damage dice, the result would be bigger which means more damage. The question here is: Is there any 2h shield so I can use 2 of them with Jotungrip and get the most out of bashing dmg?

[StreamOfTheSky]

With Jotungrip I can wield 2 Curve Blades so I can have 2 weapons that deal 1d10 each instead of 2 weaps with 1d8 each. Who doesn't like this?

When you're taking -2 to hit, I don't like it...

[skypse]

When you're taking -2 to hit, I don't like it...

Shield mastery says that ignores ANY penalty on attack rolls.

[grarrrg]

Shield mastery says that ignores ANY penalty on attack rolls.

By strict RAW yes (but only when you're wielding another weapon).

But the RAI is generally accepted to only ignore the TWF penalties (i.e. the "-2"). Otherwise things get pretty silly pretty fast (Free Power Attack? yes please!).

[The Random NPC]

Don't forget, shields are weapons, so you can dual wield shields and get Shield Master to apply to both. Though you may want to double check that with your GM, mine was cool with it, but I hear others are not.

[skypse]

Don't forget, shields are weapons, so you can dual wield shields and get Shield Master to apply to both. Though you may want to double check that with your GM, mine was cool with it, but I hear others are not.

That. Exactly that. Book says any, no errata or FAQ to disregard it and it has been there long enough to be "by fault" ignored. I saw in another post that some Developer alone said that it is supposed to work for TWF only, but nothing official has been posted.

Shields are under the close weapon group so shield mastery works perfectly for both my shields since they have each other to rely as weapons on, so it's in the hands of my DM.

Having that cleared, I want to resume to the previous question about anyone knowing the existance of a 2h shield that has higher damage dice than the normal 1h shields out there so I can start thinking of character progression after lvl 10.

[The Random NPC]

Having that cleared, I want to resume to the previous question about anyone knowing the existance of a 2h shield that has higher damage dice than the normal 1h shields out there so I can start thinking of character progression after lvl 10.

I don't think they exist, since D&D (and by extension Pathfinder) is so combat focused, not being able to attack would be a huge detriment. I realize that there are better forms of attacking than hitting things with a sharp stick, but I'm not convinced the Devs do.

[StreamOfTheSky]

By strict RAW yes (but only when you're wielding another weapon).

But the RAI is generally accepted to only ignore the TWF penalties (i.e. the "-2"). Otherwise things get pretty silly pretty fast (Free Power Attack? yes please!).

This, except it can be worth more than removing a -2 (dual heavy shields is worth a -4 removal for TWF, for example). If your DM is cool with it, then sure. But I wouldn't try and ask for "all penalties" RAW version...

[Yael]

I don't know if this was already mentioned but there is a feat from a 3rd party source called Plot & Poison, which is called: Double Shielding. This feat allows to add both shield bonuses to AC, it requires Dex 15+, Ambidexterity (which could be translated to Two-Weapon Fighting, because this was 3.0), Shield Proficiency (obviously), and a BAB of +3 or higher. For the use of this feat, you must be wielding two shields with -1 ACP or less, you apply both shield bonuses to your AC, and both ACP as well. Also says you can shield bash with the primary hand, losing your Shield AC until your next turn (which you mend up with a feat), so with TWF you could shield bash the hell out of people around and still defend like a boss.

If haven't already mentioned too, check for the Riverine special material (Stormwrack), deflection bonus is cool.

[MasterFu]

Another option might be the Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/shielded-blade) (3rd party PF, but good) with the "Shielded Blade" archetype. Basically, you're considered to be wielding a masterwork heavy steel shield in any available hand.

You can also enchant this shield for free using class abilities, and bash is one of the available options. For extra fun, apply to a race with more than 2 arms.

[skypse]

Another option might be the Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/shielded-blade) (3rd party PF, but good) with the "Shielded Blade" archetype. Basically, you're considered to be wielding a masterwork heavy steel shield in any available hand.

You can also enchant this shield for free using class abilities, and bash is one of the available options. For extra fun, apply to a race with more than 2 arms.

Thanks for that but I can't use 3rd party material. On the other hand, I was thinking maybe it was possible to get that weird alchemist thing in order to wield more than 2 shields, but that goes completely out of the flavour I want my character to have. Would be funny if it was possible though :D