Dungeoncrasher Variant: Why?

[Chester]

So I built I Warforged Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 on his way towards Warforged Juggernaut (3.5).

Some folks have urged me to use the Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant. I see how it could be great, but the abilities seem rather conditional. Why is it better than available fighter bonus feats that I could otherwise take?

I guess I need some convincing, is all.

[Waddacku]

Well, what bonus feats do you have available that would give larger benefits or open up more options?

[icefractal]

Free damage on a bull rush combines very well with other feats such as Knockback and Shock Trooper. There's no feat that would give you that, and if you continue taking more Fighter levels you'll end up with a lot of feats anyway.

The only reason not to take it would be:
1) You're just planning to dip in Fighter for a couple levels. AND ...
2) Your build is extremely feat-hungry, and wouldn't benefit from slamming people into things.

[Doctor Awkward]

So I built I Warforged Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 on his way towards Warforged Juggernaut (3.5).

Some folks have urged me to use the Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant. I see how it could be great, but the abilities seem rather conditional. Why is it better than available fighter bonus feats that I could otherwise take?

I guess I need some convincing, is all.


It's conditional in the sense that you need to be aware of your environment, or need to have a party member that can manipulate the environment for you (with walls of force for example).

Dungeoncrasher is only better than a normal fighter insofar as class features are almost always better than feats. And since Warforged Juggernaut is build around charging and bull rush, it's helpful to have abilities that compliment that.

[icefractal]

It becomes much less conditional if you can fly, however - simply attack from above and slam people into the ground. Or if you have Shock Trooper and can slam enemies into each-other.

[Chester]

Well, what bonus feats do you have available that would give larger benefits or open up more options?

It's more along the lines of eating up prerequisite feats, but yes, it is alluring.


Free damage on a bull rush combines very well with other feats such as Knockback and Shock Trooper. There's no feat that would give you that, and if you continue taking more Fighter levels you'll end up with a lot of feats anyway.

The only reason not to take it would be:
1) You're just planning to dip in Fighter for a couple levels. AND ...
2) Your build is extremely feat-hungry, and wouldn't benefit from slamming people into things.

Planning to jump to juggernaut ASAP, after 5 levels of fighter.


It's conditional in the sense that you need to be aware of your environment, or need to have a party member that can manipulate the environment for you (with walls of force for example).

Dungeoncrasher is only better than a normal fighter insofar as class features are almost always better than feats. And since Warforged Juggernaut is build around charging and bull rush, it's helpful to have abilities that compliment that.

True.

Question: does the damage from the charge happen BEFORE the attack, or does it count as the attack?


It becomes much less conditional if you can fly, however - simply attack from above and slam people into the ground. Or if you have Shock Trooper and can slam enemies into each-other.

Yes, I want Shock Trooper.

[Vogonjeltz]

Chester: a charge is an action in which you get to make a melee attack. The damage comes from the attack.

[TheThan]

So you can do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar6xC8KM-jk)

[NotScaryBats]

Dungeoncrasher can kinda just add 4d6 + str (or way more) to all of you damage rolls, depending on your environment. So, its kinda like sneak attack -- a situational buff to your damage.

[Blackhawk748]

So you can do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar6xC8KM-jk)

Pretty much the main reason i take it lol

Also take Leap Attack, now you can Bull Rush them into the floor, and what is the floor if not a horizontal wall?

Though be careful using the above joke/suggestion as your DM may beat you with a book :smalltongue:

[Rebel7284]

It's pretty silly with Knockback when you can get a free bull rush with every attack. Even without it, however, it does add a useful tactical option because moving opponents around = battlefield control. Still dealing significant damage when doing that is nice! However, without knockback, I would seriously consider NOT taking it depending on what other feats you want.

[Necroticplague]

You intend to go warforgeed juggernaut? You probably keep getting Dungeoncrasher as a suggestion because of the synergy, fluff and crunch wise. A dungeoncrasher is a guy who trains to be good at breaking crap and brutally smash people against things. a warforged juggernaut is a warforged who makes himself more machine-like so that he gets better at smashing crap and shoving people around. Both of them naturally want you to focus on STR, so their's some good stat synergy as well.

[Hurnn]

If you are going 5 fighter bite the bullet and go 6 to get the bump to all the dungeon-crasher stuff.
.

[Deox]

Planning to jump to juggernaut ASAP, after 5 levels of fighter.

I'm not familiar with the type of thing I'm seeing.

Why 5 levels of Fighter? End in an even level. Go the 6th level, get the Dungeoncrasher boost. Maybe even a martial study for Charging Minotaur for an additional charge (which doesn't provoke) and adds another 2d6 + strength mod in damage.

As was posted earlier, the amount of synergy is amazing.

[Divide by Zero]

Or if you're determined not to take that sixth level for some reason, replace the fifth level with literally any other full BAB class, because it will give you more than Fighter 5 will.

[Curmudgeon]

Also take Leap Attack, now you can Bull Rush them into the floor, and what is the floor if not a horizontal wall?

Though be careful using the above joke/suggestion as your DM may beat you with a book :smalltongue:
Worse yet, the DM may beat you with the book held horizontally. :smallwink:

[georgie_leech]

Or if you're determined not to take that sixth level for some reason, replace the fifth level with literally any other full BAB class, because it will give you more than Fighter 5 will.

Heck, as long as you're taking Barbarian 1, take Barbarian 2. Bigger HD, +1 to Fort instead of nothing, Uncanny dodge.

[Chester]

Chester: a charge is an action in which you get to make a melee attack. The damage comes from the attack.

What I mean is: can I charge, do the Dungeoncrasher damage, then swing with my weapon?

[Deox]

What I mean is: can I charge, do the Dungeoncrasher damage, then swing with my weapon?

No. Dungeoncrasher is activated after the previous conditions (initiating and succeeding in a bull rush against an opponent into a wall) are met. As part of a charge, you can bull rush or you can swing with your weapon, not both.

Edit: I believe with pounce, you can do a mixing of dungeoncrashing / weapon swinging per iterative.

[Eslin]

No. Dungeoncrasher is activated after the previous conditions (initiating and succeeding in a bull rush against an opponent into a wall) are met. As part of a charge, you can bull rush or you can swing with your weapon, not both.

Edit: I believe with pounce, you can do a mixing of dungeoncrashing / weapon swinging per iterative.

Which is where knockback comes in. Dives in from above, smash them against the ground a bunch of times

[OldTrees1]

What I mean is: can I charge, do the Dungeoncrasher damage, then swing with my weapon?

If and only if you have the ability to do a bullrush and then an attack on a charge.

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.
This implies you can combine a Bullrush and an attack if Pounce would give you multiple attacks on a charge(since bullrush eats one of the attacks).

So yes if you have Pounce, BAB +6 or higher, and Dungeoncrasher, then you can do a charging bullrush(+dungeoncrasher damage if applicable) + you 2nd attack.


However if you have Knockback then you would go: Charge, Attack 1 -> Bullrush 1 -> Dungeoncrasher 1, Attack 2(if BAB+6) -> Bullrush 2 -> Dungeoncrasher 2, Attack 3(if BAB +11)...

[Deox]

Which is where knockback comes in. Dives in from above, smash them against the ground a bunch of times

Agreed. I realized that right after the post and had to edit accordingly.

[Deox]

However if you have Knockback then you would go: Charge, Attack 1 -> Bullrush 1 -> Dungeoncrasher 1, Attack 2(if BAB+6) -> Bullrush 2 -> Dungeoncrasher 2, Attack 3(if BAB +11)...

Courtesy of JaronK (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0;wap2)

[OldTrees1]

Courtesy of JaronK (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0;wap2)

Build 2: The Bulldozer :smallsmile:
Although I would delay Fighter 3-6 until after Warhulk 4. It only delays you by 1 feat for 4 levels and gets you your target multiplier faster.

Feat change
8 (old bonus feat) delayed to 9 (HD feat): Shield Slam
9 (HD feat) delayed to 12 (new bonus feat): Shock Trooper

[StreamOfTheSky]

I love Knockback, it's one of my favorite feats. The problem with it is needing to be large or have powerful build or the like. Does Juggernaut make you large?

Also, even if the DM is opposed to the "floors are walls" argument, dungeoncrasher is much less situational if anyone in the party can cast blockade, or at least use a wand of it. C.Scoundrel, 1st level spell, swift action (nice!), places a heavy 5 ft cube of wood in a space you want. Instant wall, anywhere you want!

[Chester]

I'm not familiar with the type of thing I'm seeing.

Why 5 levels of Fighter?

I don't have my build notes on me; I may have meant Fighter 4, ECL 5.


I love Knockback, it's one of my favorite feats. The problem with it is needing to be large or have powerful build or the like. Does Juggernaut make you large?

No, but I'm trying to "cheat" my way into large in order to qualify for War Hulk. Maybe permanence on an enlarge spell. Flavor-wise, my friend's building an artificer who rebuilds me and adds components, so we can go that route.

EDIT: Warforged Charger (race) is off the table.

[Rebel7284]

I don't have my build notes on me; I may have meant Fighter 4, ECL 5.



No, but I'm trying to "cheat" my way into large in order to qualify for War Hulk. Maybe permanence on an enlarge spell. Flavor-wise, my friend's building an artificer who rebuilds me and adds components, so we can go that route.

EDIT: Warforged Charger (race) is off the table.


Note that Enlarge Person can't affect warforged.

[OldTrees1]

Note that Enlarge Person can't affect warforged.

Unless the 6th level spell Greater Humanoid Essence was cast first. Once Enlarge Person is in place and Permanent(via Permanancy), then you remain Large when Greater Humanoid Essence wears off.

[torrasque666]

Unless the 6th level spell Greater Humanoid Essence was cast first. Once Enlarge Person is in place and Permanent(via Permanancy), then you remain Large when Greater Humanoid Essence wears off.


If you're relying on spells, better to instead get Polymorphed into a Warforged Charger. Gets you large, free 20 STR, 10 Dex(bah), 20 CON. Also allows you to buff your mental stats instead a bit.

[Deophaun]

Also, even if the DM is opposed to the "floors are walls" argument...
Why do people focus on "walls?" It's "wall or other solid object." If your DM is opposed to the "floors are solid objects" argument, find one that's less crazy.

[Extra Anchovies]

Why do people focus on "walls?" It's "wall or other solid object." If your DM is opposed to the "floors are solid objects" argument, find one that's less crazy.

Like an exceptionally stable Warforged buddy! Or get a friend to stand behind your enemies and cast Blockade for portable walls.

[OldTrees1]

If you're relying on spells, better to instead get Polymorphed into a Warforged Charger. Gets you large, free 20 STR, 10 Dex(bah), 20 CON. Also allows you to buff your mental stats instead a bit.

I think the only way to get permanent polymorph is to cast Polymorph any Object. Since the Warforged Charger race is off the table, why would we assume permanent Polymorphing into it would be on the table?

[torrasque666]

Missed that bit. Whoops.

Then again, its possibly off the table due to the game starting off at a lower level than 10.

[Curmudgeon]

Why do people focus on "walls?" It's "wall or other solid object." If your DM is opposed to the "floors are solid objects" argument, find one that's less crazy.
That's not the issue. The issue is that Dungeon Crasher is a modified Bull Rush, which requires that you push an opponent straight back, which refers to retrograde movement on the 2D battle grid. Up and down pushing doesn't make for a Bull Rush.

[Deophaun]

That's not the issue. The issue is that Dungeon Crasher is a modified Bull Rush, which requires that you push an opponent straight back, which refers to retrograde movement on the 2D battle grid.
Citation needed. Otherwise, I see no reason why "away from me" is not a valid interpretation, especially as there is no facing in 3.5. Also, this would put us in the ridiculous situation of you bullrushing someone through you who had been running away from you last round.

[The Random NPC]

Citation needed. Otherwise, I see no reason why "away from me" is not a valid interpretation, especially as there is no facing in 3.5. Also, this would put us in the ridiculous situation of you bullrushing someone through you who had been running away from you last round.

I think Curmudgeon meant "away from me" not "towards the opponents back". Especially since there is no facing.

[Deophaun]

I think Curmudgeon meant "away from me" not "towards the opponents back". Especially since there is no facing.
That's a charitable interpretation, considering we are talking about this in the context of PCs that are flying or jumping on top of their opponents.

[Sir Chuckles]

Like an exceptionally stable Warforged buddy! Or get a friend to stand behind your enemies and cast Blockade for portable walls.

I onced used the Bulldozer build in combination with a bunch of mooks who had The Gentle Way Mastery as a substitute for a wall. It was a minor villain.

Though Blockade would work just as well or better, especially since it's a swift action to cast.

[Thiyr]

I just had an amusing realization. I looked up bull rush, because reasons. Now, normally for a bullrush you move into your opponent's square. This is typically the means people use to determine where the target will be moved (a straight line following the path the player entered their opponent's square, the only reasonable means of determining the relative "back" given the circumstances*). Pop quiz: You're an abnormally strong, abnormally tiny creature. You're already in someone's square and proceed to bullrush them, or you're bullrushed (doesn't matter either way). Where do you go?



*This includes vertical motion. D&D is conveniently not a 2d game, even if there are times we simplify it to act as such for convenience. Assuming you're coming from at least 5 ft above your opponent, however, bullrushing down is a viable direction, so long as if the trajectory of movement is followed in such a way that the next area entered by the target would result in movement on that axis. Thus, a shallow angle will -eventually- provide downward motion, but generally won't provide it quickly enough to matter unless you're really outperforming on your str checks, while steeper angles make it far easier to do. Just sayin'.

[Deophaun]

Pop quiz: You're an abnormally strong, abnormally tiny creature. You're already in someone's square and proceed to bullrush them, or you're bullrushed (doesn't matter either way). Where do you go?
I don't think you can bulrush the person whose square you are already in:

First, you move into the defender’s space.
This is part of the standard action needed to Bull Rush. If you're already in the square, then you cannot move into the defender's space, which means you cannot initiate the Bull Rush.

Of course, if you're bull rushed, then you go in the opposite direction that the other tiny creature that entered the square you were sharing with the larger creature came from. :P

[Divide by Zero]

I think Curmudgeon meant "away from me" not "towards the opponents back". Especially since there is no facing.

And if you are in the cube above your opponent, then "away from me" is in fact the floor.

[The Random NPC]

That's a charitable interpretation, considering we are talking about this in the context of PCs that are flying or jumping on top of their opponents.

Ah, but with Curmudgeon's reference to 2D, I believe Curmudgeon was misunderstanding the conversation. Now, Curmudgeon may be saying that Bullrushing can only be done on the 2D plane, but I'm going to assume that isn't the case.


And if you are in the cube above your opponent, then "away from me" is in fact the floor.

No argument there. Unless there is no floor :smalltongue:.

[Curmudgeon]

Ah, but with Curmudgeon's reference to 2D, I believe Curmudgeon was misunderstanding the conversation. Now, Curmudgeon may be saying that Bullrushing can only be done on the 2D plane, but I'm going to assume that isn't the case.
Actually, that is what I was saying. Quite a lot of the game assumes it's only playing on a 2D grid. See, for instance, Missing with a Thrown Weapon (Player's Handbook, page 158). You can only miss in 8 surrounding squares in the same plane, rather than 26 surrounding cubes.

[Chester]

Missed that bit. Whoops.

Then again, its possibly off the table due to the game starting off at a lower level than 10.

Yes, exactly. We'd be starting at level 2.

[Deophaun]

Actually, that is what I was saying. Quite a lot of the game assumes it's only playing on a 2D grid. See, for instance, Missing with a Thrown Weapon (Player's Handbook, page 158). You can only miss in 8 surrounding squares in the same plane, rather than 26 surrounding cubes.
The rules for a thrown weapon don't assume a 2D space; they assume gravity.

[Blackhawk748]

The rules for a thrown weapon don't assume a 2D space; they assume gravity.

You can still miss by throwing over them, which would then mean it would fly way past them.

[Curmudgeon]

The rules for a thrown weapon don't assume a 2D space; they assume gravity.
No, they assume gravity and a 2D space. If you aim at a creature on a hunting stand (a portable platform, approximately the iconic D&D size of 5'x5', cantilevered off one side of a tree) you can miss in all 26 directions around the creature, 3 of which will be occupied by tree trunk. Except, of course, the rules don't work that way; you can only miss in 8 cubes in the horizontal plane shared by the target creature, 1 of which will hit the tree instead but all the other 7 cubes will be full of air.

[Deophaun]

No, they assume gravity and a 2D space. If you aim at a creature on a hunting stand (a portable platform, approximately the iconic D&D size of 5'x5', cantilevered off one side of a tree) you can miss in all 26 directions around the creature, 3 of which will be occupied by tree trunk. Except, of course, the rules don't work that way; you can only miss in 8 cubes in the horizontal plane shared by the target creature, 1 of which will hit the tree instead but all the other 7 cubes will be full of air.
Wrong.

When a thrown weapon misses, roll d8 and refer to this diagram to determine where the weapon lands.

After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in adjacent squares.
The roll is not determining what cube you accidentally throw the weapon into, it's determining where the weapon ends up after you have missed and gravity has had its say.

So if a knife is thrown at a creature in a hunting stand, the knife doesn't end up in any of the 26 cubes around the stand. It lands in the 8 cubes around the base of the tree.

[torrasque666]

Yes, exactly. We'd be starting at level 2.

Alright, so then my point about Polymorphing into a Warforged Charger still applies. Now time to figure out how to Permanency it.

PaO is an 8th level spell, so that's too far out...

GHE and EP rely on 6th level slots, so that can't come online until 11th level...

[georgie_leech]

Wrong.


The roll is not determining what cube you accidentally throw the weapon into, it's determining where the weapon ends up after you have missed and gravity has had its say.

So if a knife is thrown at a creature in a hunting stand, the knife doesn't end up in any of the 26 cubes around the stand. It lands in the 8 cubes around the base of the tree.

Which in turn implies that if you threw a dagger while flying at someone also flying 10 feet away, it would immediately drop almost straight down in order to match the diagram.

[OldTrees1]

Alright, so then my point about Polymorphing into a Warforged Charger still applies. Now time to figure out how to Permanency it.

PaO is an 8th level spell, so that's too far out...

GHE and EP rely on 6th level slots, so that can't come online until 11th level...

Well you only want 1 casting of each(PaO or GHE,EP,&P) so you could go with hiring an NPC caster when at a much lower level.


@Thrown weapons missing:
I only see rules for thrown splash weapons(not daggers). So the weapon falling after missing makes sense for lobbed splash weapons.

[Troacctid]

Which in turn implies that if you threw a dagger while flying at someone also flying 10 feet away, it would immediately drop almost straight down in order to match the diagram.

That's not unreasonable if you visualize the miss as it hitting handle-first and bouncing off harmlessly.

[torrasque666]

Well you only want 1 casting of each(PaO or GHE,EP,&P) so you could go with hiring an NPC caster when at a much lower level.

True, and then it comes to cost.

PaO would cost minimum 15*80=1,200gp

GHE+EP+Permenancy would cost 3,620gp together.

[OldTrees1]

True, and then it comes to cost.

PaO would cost minimum 15*80=1,200gp

GHE+EP+Permenancy would cost 3,620gp together.

Yep.
I would still ask your DM though. PaO used this way can be seen as cheating your way around the RHD+LA of the race.

[torrasque666]

Yep.
I would still ask your DM though. PaO used this way can be seen as cheating your way around the RHD+LA of the race.

True, and considering that there is also the possibility that a DM could rule that since you have become that creature, you inherit all of the LA at the very least. Could be counted under "gross physical qualities."

[Deophaun]

Which in turn implies that if you threw a dagger while flying at someone also flying 10 feet away, it would immediately drop almost straight down in order to match the diagram.
Yes, it would. Just as if you missed trying to throw a knife at someone right next to you, it wouldn't fly an additional 30 feet; it, too, would drop straight down.

All this time, is it still a surprise that 3.5 doesn't do momentum?

[Curmudgeon]

So if you throw a javelin at some flying creature that's at a 45 degree up angle from you, and you miss by overshooting 5', that javelin is going to then halt in mid-air (immediately lose all forward and upward momentum) and drop directly to the ground below. :smallamused:

[Thiyr]

Thankfully, sudden loss of momentum isn't a thing except for thrown splash weapons.

Also, I get the feeling that they intended to have you think of it as lobbing them in an arc rather than going for a straight throw, which would explain why you can't miss in any more than 8 directions. Plus, yknow, that whole "simplify it to act as 2d for convenience" bit. Man but it'd be a pain to figure out how to make a d26.

(intentionally ninja'd by Old Man Trees, but I figure it can't hurt to reiterate that point)

[OldTrees1]

(intentionally ninja'd by Old Man Trees, but I figure it can't hurt to reiterate that point)
:) Funny new nickname. (and thanks for reiterating the point, it seemed to have been missed)

[Hiro Protagonest]

D&D battles do have a 3D plane, even if the battlegrid used is unable to show it. Otherwise the rules for flying would be like Legend's, which are greatly simplified where it's basically just a status effect.

[Deophaun]

So if you throw a javelin at some flying creature that's at a 45 degree up angle from you, and you miss by overshooting 5', that javelin is going to then halt in mid-air (immediately lose all forward and upward momentum) and drop directly to the ground below. :smallamused:
Distinguish that scenario with the one I posited earlier, please. Or do you imagine that people throwing weapons use only just enough force to get the weapon to their target, much like they're playing a game of horseshoes?

[Drelua]

I could be missing something here, but it seems to me that the argument being used to prove that D&D is a 2D game is that there's one rule that only works 2D. A rule that has plenty of reasons to only function in such a way. As someone said, a weapon wouldn't land in midair or bury itself five feet underground. The assumption there isn't that the game is 2D, it's that you'll probably be standing on the ground most of the time. The rule only works right where this is the case, unless you say that the weapon stops in any square beside the target, then it falls in whatever direction is appropriate.

I'm sorry, but that is a massively flawed argument.

[The Glyphstone]

If D&D is a 2d game, why are there specific rules for Moving In Three Dimensions? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions)