True Polymorph

[Eslin]

Is it just me, or is True Polymorph by far the most effective combat option at high levels? The moment you get it you can turn into a death knight or adult gold dragon, and by 20 you can use it to turn into a pit fiend or ancient brass dragon - and since it's permanent past the first hour, you don't even have to use your 9th level spell for the day to do it (use that on foresight instead for even greater combat ability).

Isn't that far and away the most powerful option (apart from simulacrum chaining) available to someone of that level?

[Noldo]

Well, it depends. If my serves me right, You do net get to keep your abilities. So you will not becom a dead knight or dragon or pit fiend with 9th level spells, you take a copy from the relevant page of MM and use that as your character sheet.

[Baveboi]

Yeaaaah, you definitely don't want to make that permanent. I remember an old tale (from 2nd edition, I guess) about this Deep Gnome that was polymorphed into a Hook Horror by a random bitter wizard and was loosing his mind more and more everyday until one day he simply snapped and fully believed he was a Hook Horror, thus killing the wizard and the only person capable of returning him to his original form.

That is one hell of a cautionary tale about the dangers of spellcasting if I ever seen one. I know you are one reckless spellslinger, Esling, but I will still voice my concerns; you have to be more prudent about this things. They are supposed to be dangerous and unfathomable forces you are dealing with there, dude, or else it's not magical. Just... numbers.

[Eslin]

Yeaaaah, you definitely don't want to make that permanent. I remember an old tale (from 2nd edition, I guess) about this Deep Gnome that was polymorphed into a Hook Horror by a random bitter wizard and was loosing his mind more and more everyday until one day he simply snapped and fully believed he was a Hook Horror, thus killing the wizard and the only person capable of returning him to his original form.

That is one hell of a cautionary tale about the dangers of spellcasting if I ever seen one. I know you are one reckless spellslinger, Esling, but I will still voice my concerns; you have to be more prudent about this things. They are supposed to be dangerous and unfathomable forces you are dealing with there, dude, or else it's not magical. Just... numbers.

I remember that from a drizzt book, but that's explictly not how the spell works. You gain the creature's statistics, but retain your alignment and personality.

What you're describing sounds more like a baleful polymorph variant (retains personality, will saves after a while which if failed means it loses its grip on its old self) that turns them into a large creature.

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, level != CR, and True Polymorph's straight conversion is a heck of a boost. Most parties will try something like this to some extent. Even with class features replaced, heavy melee might have some tempting trades.

That said, the others are right. Most interesting campaigns will subvert this after a while. Though my favorite to play is when True Seeing comes back to bite you. Seeing behind the masks that things in the world wear gets you noticed. I love seeing what horrors my DM's keep behind the veils of reality. :smallamused:

[Scirocco]

Fun with True Seeing: Room full of invisible bodaks.

[MaxWilson]

I remember that from a drizzt book, but that's explictly not how the spell works. You gain the creature's statistics, but retain your alignment and personality.

What you're describing sounds more like a baleful polymorph variant (retains personality, will saves after a while which if failed means it loses its grip on its old self) that turns them into a large creature.

The Drizzt book (Exile) was written during 2nd edition, when the Polymorph spell did work exactly that way: you retain your alignment/personality for a while, but eventually you lose it, gain all the personality and abilities of the creature into which you are polymorphed, and in fact become convinced that you are in fact a Hook Horror/whatever. Even if the spell is dispelled you remain convinced that you are actually a Hook Horror in a gnome's body.

So the Drizzt book was quite accurate, even though Polymorph doesn't work that way in 5E.

Question for everyone: so what happens if you True Polymorph into a Black Pudding, and then get split in half by a Slashing attack? When the spell wears off, are you now two PCs?

[Demonicattorney]

Is it just me, or is True Polymorph by far the most effective combat option at high levels? The moment you get it you can turn into a death knight or adult gold dragon, and by 20 you can use it to turn into a pit fiend or ancient brass dragon - and since it's permanent past the first hour, you don't even have to use your 9th level spell for the day to do it (use that on foresight instead for even greater combat ability).

Isn't that far and away the most powerful option (apart from simulacrum chaining) available to someone of that level?

Dragon doesn't have magic weapons, so its basically half damage most of the time. Death Knight is worse than just playing a Paladin, so no, its really not.

[JoeJ]

If you True Polymorph into an adult gold dragon you're no longer a spellcaster unless the DM is using the Variant rules, and in which case you know a maximum of 7 spell of no higher than 5th level, and are able to cast each of those spells once per day. If you're a 17th level wizard that might be okay temporarily, but letting it become permanent doesn't sound like a very good deal to me.

[Symphony]

On the subject of True Polymorph, what happens when a True Polymorphed target who has been "permanently" changed is reduced to 0 hp? I'm pretty sure RAI they start death saving throws, but RAW they might just revert back to their original form?

I can kinda see it both ways, though.

[pwykersotz]

On the subject of True Polymorph, what happens when a True Polymorphed target who has been "permanently" changed is reduced to 0 hp? I'm pretty sure RAI they start death saving throws, but RAW they might just revert back to their original form?

I can kinda see it both ways, though.

Why not both? :smalltongue:

In seriousness, I think you have the right of it. RAW they revert, but depending on how long they've been in the form, or how traumatic the damage was, there might be fallout. That's supposition, however.

[LTwerewolf]

The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions.

This doesn't say to me "You don't get to keep your own spellcasting." It says to me "If you turn into something that's not capable of performing the actions needed to spellcast, you can't do it." Thus An ooze would be right out, but a dragon has the requisite needs to perform spellcasting, and therefore can. Nowhere else in the spell does it say you lose your spellcasting ability.

[JoeJ]

This doesn't say to me "You don't get to keep your own spellcasting." It says to me "If you turn into something that's not capable of performing the actions needed to spellcast, you can't do it." Thus An ooze would be right out, but a dragon has the requisite needs to perform spellcasting, and therefore can. Nowhere else in the spell does it say you lose your spellcasting ability.

The target's game stats are replaced by those of the new form. The only thing you get to keep are alignment and personality.

[HugeC]

I'm going to use True Polymorphing into a Pit Fiend as my warlock's Epic Destiny. :P

[Eslin]

On the subject of True Polymorph, what happens when a True Polymorphed target who has been "permanently" changed is reduced to 0 hp? I'm pretty sure RAI they start death saving throws, but RAW they might just revert back to their original form?

I can kinda see it both ways, though.

It says they change back when they hit 0hp, and doesn't say they don't if the duration is permanent. All the duration changing does is exactly that, change how long it lasts - it can still be dispelled, for instance.

[Endarire]

I prefer Angel (Planetar) form for true polymorph.

[EugeneVoid]

Then comes RAW English debates if it means you can only cast up to the new form's abilities or your old one's or yada-yada.

[Kyutaru]

Make sure you only cast True Polymorph AFTER the encounter has started. Otherwise the DM can and very likely will adjust the encounter difficulty to provide "a more suitable challenge for the party's strength".

[Eslin]

Make sure you only cast True Polymorph AFTER the encounter has started. Otherwise the DM can and very likely will adjust the encounter difficulty to provide "a more suitable challenge for the party's strength".

Except true polymorph is one of your spells. It's supposed to be already included in your strength.

[Kyutaru]

Except true polymorph is one of your spells. It's supposed to be already included in your strength.

Yeah that's why you cast it during combat! If you cast it beforehand and become a Tyrannosaurus, he now has to provide a challenge that suits a T-Rex.

[Eslin]

Yeah that's why you cast it during combat! If you cast it beforehand and become a Tyrannosaurus, he now has to provide a challenge that suits a T-Rex.

Well, not really. The whole point about CR is it's supposed to match the players' combat potential - the CR for a bard with elemental weapon shouldn't be any different after he casts it on the fighter's sword. True polymorph's potential is supposed to be part of being the level that you are, casting it should not change that.

[Kyutaru]

Thing is I'd argue as a DM that if you just shapechanged into something of a significantly high CR, you're actually changing your party's potential. Heck, I can even argue that a CR 8 is a balanced encounter for four level 8 adventurers, so becoming anything CR 8 would make your "actual level" something like 12.

[JoeJ]

It probably doesn't matter whether you cast the spell before or during combat. I, for one, certainly wouldn't reduce the difficulty of an encounter just because the level 17+ spellcaster decided to turn into a Challenge 8 dinosaur.

[Forum Explorer]

Make sure you only cast True Polymorph AFTER the encounter has started. Otherwise the DM can and very likely will adjust the encounter difficulty to provide "a more suitable challenge for the party's strength".

That's a bad idea I think. Because until it becomes permanent it can be broken from a failed concentration check.

Anyways, I think it's not suited for a buff on the Wizard, but on the fighter. Turn him into a dragon or some other intelligent monster, then let him solo the next encounter (cause when he hits zero hp he's just back to normal). You can do it while the rest of the party gets a short rest in even.

[Eslin]

That's a bad idea I think. Because until it becomes permanent it can be broken from a failed concentration check.

Anyways, I think it's not suited for a buff on the Wizard, but on the fighter. Turn him into a dragon or some other intelligent monster, then let him solo the next encounter (cause when he hits zero hp he's just back to normal). You can do it while the rest of the party gets a short rest in even.

It's an appropriate buff for everybody, it's ancient dragon party time!

[LTwerewolf]

It probably doesn't matter whether you cast the spell before or during combat. I, for one, certainly wouldn't reduce the difficulty of an encounter just because the level 17+ spellcaster decided to turn into a Challenge 8 dinosaur.

Agree, they're no more powerful than they were before the match, as they still had the same capability. There's little difference between "He's an angel" and "Hey look, enemies have been spotted and he turned into an angel" as far as power goes.

[Shining Wrath]

You are limited to a CR less than or equal to your level.

All your worn equipment melds into your new form and becomes unusable, so unless you're going to take the time to drop your spell component pouch, wands, et cetera, those are lost to you. RAW you lose the use of all your equipment, but I think RAI is that if you set it down first you can pick it back up in your new form. This requires some time, though, which makes this spell a little less useful in combat.

[Eslin]

You are limited to a CR less than or equal to your level.

All your worn equipment melds into your new form and becomes unusable, so unless you're going to take the time to drop your spell component pouch, wands, et cetera, those are lost to you. RAW you lose the use of all your equipment, but I think RAI is that if you set it down first you can pick it back up in your new form. This requires some time, though, which makes this spell a little less useful in combat.

You don't cast it in combat, man. You cast it several days before combat, you have all the prep time you need.

[slachance6]

If you True Polymorph into an adult gold dragon you're no longer a spellcaster unless the DM is using the Variant rules, and in which case you know a maximum of 7 spell of no higher than 5th level, and are able to cast each of those spells once per day. If you're a 17th level wizard that might be okay temporarily, but letting it become permanent doesn't sound like a very good deal to me.

Some DMs might let you keep your spells, as the True Poly spell says that you can't use your class features unless the new form is capable of such actions. Dragons can certainly become spell casters, so it's definitely the DM's decision, but you might be able to keep your spells.

Or you can just turn into an Archmage if you're a metallic dragon (it's a humanoid with a CR less than an adult gold dragon) :p

Anyway, that spell is broken.