How to weaken saving throws?

[odigity]

I see many ways of weakening an opponents attacks and ability checks -- Hex, Cutting Words, Fear -- but very few that weaken an opponent's saving throws.

Looking at the list of conditions for some easy answers, the only relevant ones are:

Paralyzed: autofail Str/Dex saves
Restrained: disadvantage on Dex saves
Stunned: autofail Str/Dex saves


And most of the ways of inflicting the above conditions involve spells or Stunning Fist, both of which themselves usually require a saving throw to work. :)

So, what are some good ways of debuffing saves to make save spells more reliable?

[Finieous]

EK's Eldritch Strike.

[odigity]

EK's Eldritch Strike.

"When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn."

That's pretty good. Assuming you want to take 10 levels of fighter, this method is easy to achieve and weakens any save, though only against your own spells, so you can't use it to set up a team play.

[Eslin]

Contagion, in addition to its many other uses, allows you to inflict disadvantage on the save of your choice.

[MaxWilson]

"When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn."

That's pretty good. Assuming you want to take 10 levels of fighter, this method is easy to achieve and weakens any save, though only against your own spells, so you can't use it to set up a team play.

You can set up a team play by using your Eldritch Strike to prep for your Bestow Curse to weaken the attribute your teammate is planning on attacking. Convoluted but can be worth doing, e.g. to weaken the vampire's Charisma saves so the Necromancer can take control of it permanently. (Well, almost permanently, once you Feeblemind it. Order it not to use its Legendary Resistance against Feeblemind.)

[Morukai]

You can set up a team play by using your Eldritch Strike to prep for your Bestow Curse to weaken the attribute your teammate is planning on attacking. Convoluted but can be worth doing, e.g. to weaken the vampire's Charisma saves so the Necromancer can take control of it permanently. (Well, almost permanently, once you Feeblemind it. Order it not to use its Legendary Resistance against Feeblemind.)


A Necromancer couldn't really use Feeblemind in the way that you're intending, because it precludes the understanding of any language. It would be difficult to use the Necromancer's 14th level ability if the undead could not understand the Necromancer's commands.

[Yorrin]

Light Domain's Corona of Light imposes disadvantage vs Radiant and Fire damage spells, fwiw...

[Person_Man]

Read the Monster Manual.

Full spellcasters have spells that can target each of the six ability score Saving Throws. (Though IIRC, only the Wizard or Lore Bard can do all six at low-mid levels. Most others are limited to 3-4ish. Though that's just a guess-timate). Non-Proficient Saving Throws do not scale, and most monsters have at least one low or mediocre ability score that they are not proficient in.

Therefore, if you target an enemy's "weak Save" you are highly likely to succeed against it, even if you don't have some other factor imposing Disadvantage or whatever on it.

[odigity]

Full spellcasters have spells that can target each of the six ability score Saving Throws. (Though IIRC, only the Wizard or Lore Bard can do all six at low-mid levels. Most others are limited to 3-4ish. Though that's just a guess-timate). Non-Proficient Saving Throws do not scale, and most monsters have at least one low or mediocre ability score that they are not proficient in.

Therefore, if you target an enemy's "weak Save" you are highly likely to succeed against it, even if you don't have some other factor imposing Disadvantage or whatever on it.

That's an excellent point, and I plan to tell the full spellcasters (Bard, Wizard) to do just that. But I'm a half-caster (Paladin/Warlock), I have more specific effects that target certain saves, and wanted to know if there's any way to get an edge to make those more useful. Also asking for my Battle Master friend who's considering Disarming and Menacing attacks, both of which grant saves (Str and Wis, respectively).

[edge2054]

Also asking for my Battle Master friend who's considering Disarming and Menacing attacks, both of which grant saves (Str and Wis, respectively).

Same advice applies to the Battlemaster. Use Wis saves vs. other melee guys. Strength saves vs. squishies. Disarming a Wizard's Arcane Focus sounds quite effective to me.

[odigity]

Same advice applies to the Battlemaster. Use Wis saves vs. other melee guys. Strength saves vs. squishies. Disarming a Wizard's Arcane Focus sounds quite effective to me.

Assuming he makes it to level 7 for manuevers #4 & #5, I agree. At level 3, he has to take both Riposte and Feint to make sure he can land Sneak Attack reliably and often. That's a must. So he'll pick either Menacing or Disarming -- probably Menacing because it targets Wis, and applies to more foes than Disarming.

[edge2054]

Assuming he makes it to level 7 for manuevers #4 & #5, I agree. At level 3, he has to take both Riposte and Feint to make sure he can land Sneak Attack reliably and often. That's a must. So he'll pick either Menacing or Disarming -- probably Menacing because it targets Wis, and applies to more foes than Disarming.

Yeah, honestly I'd avoid Disarming all together but I didn't want to dismiss it as an option if your friend had their heart set on it.

The knockdown one works well with sneak attacks too if you have an offhand attack.

But now we're getting a bit offtopic.

[rlc]

bane spell, i believe

[odigity]

bane spell, i believe

Thanks for reminding me, Bane is friggin amazing.

[Yagyujubei]

bane spell, i believe

came to say this. in a world where the typical DC is 12-15, a d4 deduction is clutchballs

[Ashrym]

A 9th level arcane trickster applies disadvantage a save using magical ambush.

[odigity]

A 9th level arcane trickster applies disadvantage a save using magical ambush.

Interesting that both the Fighter and Rogue have an ability at level 9/10 to weaken saving throws as part of their magical archetypes (EK and AT).