Paladin + Rogue Hybrid Class

[LordErebus12]

Pathfinder's Hybrid classes are pretty cool. It got me thinking about potential class hybrids. Rogue and Paladin seem like an unusual combo, which could prove interesting.

My questions are... how would it function? what fluff? what class features would it have?

Im trying to get my head around it...

Ideas?

EDIT: Sacred Trickster, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

Witch-Hunter
The Witch-Hunter is an agent of an organization, such as a church or monastery, who protects the followers. They often work with the authorities to bring down dangerous elements of life. They work as private detectives, trackers, and bounty hunters in their free time. The Witch-Hunter is the bane of magic users and creatures with innate spell-like abilities when they run amok.

Role: The Witch-Hunter is the expert, the hunter that tracks down all threats to those they work for.

Alignment: Any Lawful.

Hit Die: d10.

Parent Classes: Paladin and Rogue.

Starting Wealth: 5d6 × 10 gp (average 175 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

Class Skills
The Witch-Hunter's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any; taken individually) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magical Device (Cha).

Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Table: The Witch-hunter


Level

Base Attack
Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Special

Spells per Day









1st

2nd

3rd

4th



1st

+1

+0

+2

+2

Detect Magic, Detection +20 ft., Insightful Education

—

—

—

—



2nd

+2

+0

+3

+3

Witch-Hunter Talent

—

—

—

—



3rd

+3

+1

+3

+3

Bane +1d6

—

—

—

—



4th

+4

+1

+4

+4

Witch-Hunter Talent

0

—

—

—



5th

+5

+1

+4

+4

Detection +40 ft.

1

—

—

—



6th

+6/+1

+2

+5

+5

Bane +2d6, Witch-Hunter Talent

1

—

—

—



7th

+7/+2

+2

+5

+5

Shroud
1

0

—

—



8th

+8/+3

+2

+6

+6

Witch-Hunter Talent

1

1

—

—



9th

+9/+4

+3

+6

+6

Bane +3d6

2

1

—

—



10th

+10/+5

+3

+7

+7

Advanced Talents, Detection +60 ft., Witch-Hunter Talent

2

1

0

—



11th

+11/+6/+1

+3

+7

+7

Dispelling Strike
2

1

1

—



12th

+12/+7/+2

+4

+8

+8

Bane +4d6, Witch-Hunter Talent

2

2

1

—



13th

+13/+8/+3

+4

+8

+8

Deflecting Shroud
3

2

1

0



14th

+14/+9/+4

+4

+9

+9

[Ability 2], Witch-Hunter Talent

3

2

1

1



15th

+15/+10/+5

+5

+9

+9

Bane +5d6, Detection +80 ft.

3

2

2

1



16th

+16/+11/+6/+1

+5

+10

+10

Witch-Hunter Talent

3

3

2

1



17th

+17/+12/+7/+2

+5

+10

+10

[Ability 3]
4

3

2

1



18th

+18/+13/+8/+3

+6

+11

+11

Bane +6d6, Witch-Hunter Talent

4

3

2

2



19th

+19/+14/+9/+4

+6

+11

+11

[Ability 4]

4

3

3

2



20th

+20/+15/+10/+5

+6

+12

+12

Detection +100 ft., Master Witch-Hunter, Witch-Hunter Talent

4

4

3

3





Spellcasting
Paladin Progression, using a toned down spell list drawn from the inquisitor list, and uses Wisdom as the primary ability score.

1st - Detect Magic (Sp):
At will as a spell-like ability. Caster level equals Witch-Hunter level.

1st - Detection (Ex):
Whenever the Witch-Hunter uses a 'Detect' spell, the range of detection increases by +20 feet. This bonus improves by +20 feet at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.

Insightful Education (Ex):
The Witch-Hunter have been trained and instructed by experts from many sources, with the attempt at making the Witch-Hunter as prepared and informed as possible. The Witch-Hunter gains a +2 bonus on intelligence based skill checks. This bonus increases by +2 at 8th level and every four levels beyond that.

2nd - Witch-Hunter’s Talent (Ex/Su/Sp):
Every even level. Rogue talents, with some paladin abilities and other divine themed abilities.

3rd - Bane (Su):
Progression: as slayer's sneak attack.
Whenever the Witch-Hunter successfully attacks a creature with spellcasting abilities or spell-like abilities, all attacks deal an extra +Xd6 damage.

7th - Shroud (Su):
The Witch-Hunter gains spell resistance, equal to 5 + Witch-Hunter’s level + Intelligence Modifier. It can be dismissed as an immediate action, lowering the spell resistance for 1 round, allowing others to cast spells upon the Witch-hunter until the start of their next round. This does not impair the Witch-Hunter's own spells or spell-like abilities.

10th - Advanced Talents

11th - Dispelling Strike

13th - Deflecting Shroud

14th - Ability 2

17th - Ability 3

19th - Ability 4

20th - Master Witch-Hunter


Talents

Dimensional Lock (Sp):
When an attack is using the bane class feature, you also inflict the effects of the dimensional lock spell.

Evasion

Divine Grace

Lay On Hands

Track

Advanced Talents

Improved Evasion

Mercies

[Ziegander]

Shadowbane Infiltrator. Shadowbane Inquisitor. Witchhunters. Heck, even Pathfinder's own Inquisitor base class. All these concepts and flavors work with a Paladin/Rogue mashup. Slayer of Domiel. Any hunter and slayer of evil foes, specialized in holy acts of stealth and smiting. There's plenty you can do with this.

[Xuldarinar]

Well, an important question to answer is this: Will the class be a rogue first and a paladin second, a paladin first and a rogue second, a true hybridization of the concepts, or something that draws things (both abilities and concepts) from both but is ultimately its own thing?

[nonsi]

Well, an important question to answer is this: Will the class be a rogue first and a paladin second, a paladin first and a rogue second, a true hybridization of the concepts, or something that draws things (both abilities and concepts) from both but is ultimately its own thing?

Definitely.

@PMLordErebus12: to best answer your question, it is important to understand your design goals.

Another option to consider is the Trap Expert Ranger Dungeonscape, p.12 bottom right.
Since the Ranger is a divine caster, this might serve your purpose some of the times.

[KitsuneBoxing]

I started thinking of possible names and ideas for flavours. I found it quite difficult to think of options where the rogue part is more important, since that often leads me to what is basically an inquisitor. Here are some ideas that i came up with.

Preacher/Disciple/prophet: This would be a paladin that is more rougue-like in the sence of being poorer and more "of the people". It could keep the healing and the spellcasting, gain more skill ranks and perhaps gain some sort of skill bonus from charisma. Possibly it could gain some sneak attack, although it doesnt really fit for me. this feels more like a cleric/rogue really, but it's an idea.

Converted: This is not the best name, but the concept is solid i think, being someone who has had a rough past and then got saved or choosen (another possible not-very-good-name?). It could be like a rogue but with a smite-like ability and some of the paladin's defensive abilities.

Zealot: This would be something that is very like an inquisitor in flavour, although it could obviously have very different class features. This would (in my opinion) be the option for a name if you wanna keep the sneak attack or have a similar ability. But the name has a very nasty flavour, once again it feels more like a cleric/rogue than paladin.

Anyway, just some loose thoughts, hope they are helpful in some way.

[Ziegander]

Zealot is a great idea. I think that's an almost perfect amalgamation of Paladin and Rogue.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'd go with the Avenger PrC from 3.5 as a basis. The PrC was essentially a refluff of the Assassin, and the Paladin/Rogue hybrid would work along those lines. While the Inquisitor is to an extent an operative of the faith, the Paladin/Rogue hybrid would be the enforcer, the one called when the enemy of the faith has to be taken down, no questions asked.

For starters, the hybrid class chassis should be that of the Rogue, except with good Will saves, 6 skill points per level rather than 8 and class skills related to religion, stealth, stalking, all social skills, mobility and spellcasting. Your choice if said hybrid class should retain Use Magic Device. Proficiencies should be with all simple and martial weapons (plus maybe hand crossbows and repeating crossbows), light armor and shields (your choice if you want to include medium armor).

The hybrid class should have a reduced Sneak Attack progression, sort of like the Slayer. The trick is that the Paladin's Mark (Disclaimer: I refuse to call it a Smite) can be reworked into another kind of mark, which makes that Sneak Attack go from little to a lot. Nothing can be more dangerous than being marked by you, and suddenly you can easily make Sneak Attacks OR double the damage from them. You can also gain other benefits, such as Charisma to attack rolls and as a deflection bonus to AC against your target.

Spellcasting-wise, the class would gain spells like the Paladin, but its spell list would be changed completely, into something that works as a rework of the Inquisitor but with more Illusion and Enchantment spells. This would imply a loss of the Paladin's unique spells for the most part.

The subsequent class features would include Rogue Talents (but instead referring to your class; Avenger Talents, for example), perhaps Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, but no Trapfinding or Trap Sense (the class isn't meant for defusing traps, after all). Harder to work what to do with the Paladin side, but you could turn their Lay on Hands pool into something else, maybe a source that can empower unique Talents (which can include Inquisitor Judgments, a nerfed version of the Paladin's Lay on Hands and so forth). Bonuses to Stealth based on, say, Charisma or 1/2 level would be also nice to have; alternatively, much like the Inquisitor, a bonus to Initiative based on Charisma (that would be the equivalent of Divine Grace). As another idea, you could have the Paladin/Rogue hybrid gain bonuses or immunities much like the Paladin gets but towards different focuses, such as stun or paralysis (at much later level), perhaps retaining bonuses against fear. Of course, the capstone would be much like Master Rogue, except only against the target of your mark.

The idea behind it is that you'd have a "divine assassin", which would work alongside an Inquisitor to swiftly and quietly deal with enemy cultists, disguised outsiders and other threats of the faith. Whereas the Paladin deals openly against the forces of evil, the Cleric supports through prayer and spell, the Warpriest leads the ranks of the faithful and the Inquisitor roots them out, the new hybrid class would do the dirty work of assassination in the name of the faith.

[gr8artist]

Here's a fun idea: Antipaladin/Rogue

Oh yes.
Suggested class features include...

sneak attack (1/4 levels)
supernatural touch (usable 1/2 level + Cha per day) that deals SA damage
cruelties (applied with successful sneak attacks)
a debuff that makes all the A/R's successful attacks against the victim deal SA damage, and his allies' attacks deal damage = his SA dice. Damage doubled if victim has a "good" alignment.
morale bonus to saves/AC/attack rolls after dealing SA or critical hit damage to a creature
ability to hide his alignment
aura that forces enemies to roll twice on fort saves, concentration, and caster-level checks and take the worse roll. Good creatures take a -2/3/4 penalty on their rolls.


Pally/Rog doesn't have quite the same thematic synergy.
Interestingly, Zealot is an archetype someone made for the PGB Competition that gives a paladin "rage" which was pretty cool.

[JBPuffin]

Details to brilliance.

This. Wizards went back to this to design the 4e divine rogue-type. Suffice to say, it's gotten a lot of popularity :smallbiggrin:. If you want a Pally/Rogue, not much can compete with a greatsword-wielding assassin sent to wreak havoc on some poor unsuspecting demon cult.

[LordErebus12]

just trying to flesh it out. i dont think very highly of it, but its a rough draft.

what does everyone think?

[Aergoth]

Recommend either editing the first post or starting a new thread for the actual class.

[nonsi]

just trying to flesh it out. i dont think very highly of it, but its a rough draft.

what does everyone think?

Dimensional Lock is powerful no matter where you put it.
At 2nd level, it's ridiculous.
Talents should have prereqs.

Also, drop Insightful Education (doesn't fit thematically) and put Track instead (and Swift Tracker as a talent instead (and maybe "Uncanny Tracker" something later on)).

Shroud - if one serves as the bane of magic and philosophically opposes magic, then if you give it SR, dropping it shouldn't be an option (as in I fight it, but I embrace it when it suits me).