What's a Summoner to do?

[Lappy9001]

I have a player in my campaign right now who is playing a 3rd-level (just leveled last session) gnome summoner, and really doesn't know what to do with his summoner's turns. His limited spell selection has been helped by some scrolls (the party even pooled their starting gold together so he could buff his available spells) and he has a crossbow, although the character is not especially good with. Now the eidolon is working great with an ent-like creature with reach and a good feeling of invulnerability, but when his gnome's turn comes around, there's not too much to be done.

I'm letting Augment Summoning apply to his eidolon, but that still doesn't fix the issue with the summoner himself. Does anyone have some advice to help him out?

[Dezea]

I have a player in my campaign right now who is playing a 3rd-level (just leveled last session) gnome summoner, and really doesn't know what to do with his summoner's turns. His limited spell selection has been helped by some scrolls (the party even pooled their starting gold together so he could buff his available spells) and he has a crossbow, although the character is not especially good with. Now the eidolon is working great with an ent-like creature with reach and a good feeling of invulnerability, but when his gnome's turn comes around, there's not too much to be done.

I'm letting Augment Summoning apply to his eidolon, but that still doesn't fix the issue with the summoner himself. Does anyone have some advice to help him out?

Hmmm, some idea for you :

- Same initiative for Eidolon & Summoner : This way, it will feel less that one turn for being useful, and one for...Dealing a D8 crossbow damage. Tho, even with a low level and few spell slot, a summoner is still by himself a Cha-based caster with UMD, and a midle BaB, he should be able not to feel to useless by himself.

- Don't aply augment summoning to eidolon. Seriously. There is some things you can do to add fun to a summoner, but making an eidolon even more OP isn't one of them. This things is already able to wreck even-leveled enemy in one turn, each turn, you don't want it to be even stronger : o

- Overall, summoner is a pretty strong class, and you shouldn't be in a situation where your summoner is feeling useless. Are the other playing over optimizing ? You could maybe look at your player spell and feats, for there should be an easy way to enhance his character without homeruling it

Hope it helped!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Unfortunitely, 3 is probably the most lackluster level of Summoner. It's the last level before getting 2nd level spells and Summoner has some real gems at that level.

For now most Summoners will basically be a band-aid box for the Eidolon and an extra attack each round that isn't oticably better than a commoner's. The best solution to low level Summoner blues is attitude. Think of the Eidolon as th PC when your in combat and compare their capabilities to a martial character of the same level, then add on whatever the Summoner manages to do.

A few touch attack alchemical items wouldn't hurt though especially at this level. You could also consider casting Enlarge Person on any humanoid melee. Other than that and rejuvenate Eidolon, I'm a fan on Ant Haul for utility and Summon Monster to drop flanking buddies into the fight.

4 is a big power boost with either Haste if there are enough full attackers to make it worthwhile or Evolution Surge the first spell in an outrageously versatile line. I'm also a fan of Create Pit which is also the first spell in a line.

[jaydubs]

I second the same initiative suggestion. I'm currently playing a vanilla summoner in a campaign. The summoner himself usually throws out maybe 1 or 2 buff/support spells per combat, and then just tosses around acid splash. But I never feel useless as a player, since my turns also involve a very powerful eidolon that eats face.

Besides - at the end of the day, it's not about how much spotlight a character gets, but how much a player gets. He (and the group) needs to start thinking about the summoner and his eidolon as a package.

I'd also second Dezea about augment summoning - be careful. The summoner is a very powerful class, and doesn't need much help unless the player is at a much lower level of optimization than the rest of the party. Edit: Letting augment summoning work with the SLA is probably reasonable though, at least for normal summoners, since it means the eidolon isn't currently in play.

[Lappy9001]

The shared initiative is a good idea, I'll talk to him about it. Thanks!

The party is at a decent level of optimization; we're all pretty experienced, but everyone's more about finding fun builds than powerful ones. As for Augment Summoning, well, I'm giving everyone plenty to work with so I don't have to pull punches during encounters. Plus, aside from a dwarf fighter, they're all phenomenally squishy and definitely need the tanking.

Party is level 3 and contains:
Human Vitalist
Dwarf Fighter
Aasimar Bloodrager (squishiness will change; character was previously a very martial cross-blooded sorcerer who I let re-stat)
Gnome Summoner
Tiefling Rogue

[VexingFool]

1) Use acid splash instead of crossbow. Less damage but in most cases will hit significantly more often. I probably would have gone for a pyromaniac gnome for a summoner. Produce flame at 3rd level would give you 4x touch/ranged attacks doing 1d6+4 dmg. Throw in Naturally gifted trait or extra Gnome magic for additional uses.

2) Use the aid another action to give the eidolon or other companions +2 to hit or +2 AC. You only have to hit AC-10 so should be easy even for a summoner. Can buff this bonus with the Helpful trait and Benevolent armor enchant.

3) Instead of scrolls get a wand, its cheaper. At 3rd level a summoner should have UMD of at least +10 which is a 50% chance to activate a wand. Color spray, magic missile, sleep etc.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I mostly agree with the above suggestions. The real power of the Summoner comes not from its hands, but from the powerful hordes it can conjure to the party's aid, and the force multipliers it can stack on its party. It is not a glory-hogging sort of class (synthesists notwithstanding) but it is an extremely powerful class, one of the more powerful in the whole of Pathfinder if you will pardon the opinion.

We recently had a similar topic brought up by a player of a slightly higher-level Summoner who was encountering a similar problem. Your player will probably not ever be, himself, terribly important to the battle. I think of the Summoner as something akin to a Bard, this way; he's not there to smack enemies for hundreds of points of damage. He's there to ensure his team is more effective, that the party fighters have their Haste active and that the enemy is wasting its attacks burning down the disposable HP of his summoned monsters.

All that said, archery can be extremely cool if he chooses to invest in it. Summoners don't really need many feats, and picking up a few archery combat feats over the course of the next few levels could ensure he still contributes admirably to a fight after he's sent in his army and expended the required buff or two. Arcane Strike and Deadly Aim both contribute scaling damage per shot; Point Blank, Rapid and Precise Shot help with attack bonus and increase iterative attacks; and either Rapid Reload or Weapon Proficiency (Longbow) would allow him to full attack every round at range. He won't be the world's best archer, but with a few feats' worth of investment, he could certainly contribute a considerable amount on top of his army.

[Dezea]

I mostly agree with the above suggestions. The real power of the Summoner comes not from its hands, but from the powerful hordes it can conjure to the party's aid, and the force multipliers it can stack on its party. It is not a glory-hogging sort of class (synthesists notwithstanding) but it is an extremely powerful class, one of the more powerful in the whole of Pathfinder if you will pardon the opinion.

We recently had a similar topic brought up by a player of a slightly higher-level Summoner who was encountering a similar problem. Your player will probably not ever be, himself, terribly important to the battle. I think of the Summoner as something akin to a Bard, this way; he's not there to smack enemies for hundreds of points of damage. He's there to ensure his team is more effective, that the party fighters have their Haste active and that the enemy is wasting its attacks burning down the disposable HP of his summoned monsters.

All that said, archery can be extremely cool if he chooses to invest in it. Summoners don't really need many feats, and picking up a few archery combat feats over the course of the next few levels could ensure he still contributes admirably to a fight after he's sent in his army and expended the required buff or two. Arcane Strike and Deadly Aim both contribute scaling damage per shot; Point Blank, Rapid and Precise Shot help with attack bonus and increase iterative attacks; and either Rapid Reload or Weapon Proficiency (Longbow) would allow him to full attack every round at range. He won't be the world's best archer, but with a few feats' worth of investment, he could certainly contribute a considerable amount on top of his army.

Actually, he can actually totally do a hundred damage each turn to the enemy thanks to his litle friendly pet. And cast haste. On lvl 4. I'm not sure bard is the best classes to compare the summoner.

And really, you might regret letting Augment Summoning on eidolon, when that things will turn into a Pouncing death machine : o

[grarrrg]

Now the eidolon is working great with an ent-like creature with reach and a good feeling of invulnerability, but when his gnome's turn comes around, there's not too much to be done.

:smallconfused:
I'm confused.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work?
The Eidolon is the "real" PC, and it has a class feature to get you a Spellcaster-Companion. :smalltongue:

[Desiani]

:smallconfused:
I'm confused.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work?
The Eidolon is the "real" PC, and it has a class feature pet spellcaster-Companion. :smalltongue:

I had a half orc summoner that was a giant beef bat. I didn't take synthesist or the half orc arche type... juat gave my half orc 18 CHA 16 STR and a falchion... Jillian and I wrecked face! :D

[Ssalarn]

** You could also consider casting Enlarge Person on any humanoid melee.

With Share Spells you can (and should) be casting Enlarge Person on your eidolon!

Other good 1st level spells you can make wicked use of:

Compel Hostility - Let your eidolon truly tank with a spell that lets it force enemies to attack it instead of you or your allies

Grease - This is one of the best 1st level spells available

Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser - It's very reasonable healing, and probably necessary if you use Compel Hostility

Summon Monster I - May seem like a waste due to your SLA, but since you can't use your SLA while your eidolon is out, it's actually reasonable.

Daze Monster - Actually pretty solid for the first chunk of the game, and when you hit 5th level you can swap it out for something that will be useful now that you're not worried about critters in the 1-6 hit die range.

Side note - Summoner is a pre-optimized conjuration specialist with a good array of options available. He gets some of the best options in the game, like Haste, before any other class can access them, and can always make immediate and lethal use of buff spells. These stack up even better when smartly combined with his swath of available control effects. Even without his eidolon he's a solid Tier 2 class thanks to always having more of the highest level spells available than any other class (even if they are all automatically dedicated to summoning). The Eidolon is (or should be) the big glowing face that distracts you from the real wizard hiding behind the curtain.

[stack]

Regarding the archery suggestion above, I would be wary of adding too many penalties on attacks from a medium bab class that has nothing to really facilitate archery built in. Point blank shot and precise shot are obviously required for any ranged combatant, but rapid shot and deadly aim combined May tank your rolls too far to be really effective without devoting significant resources that would be better spent elsewhere. Archery on any chassis without bonus feats hurts and remains lackluster without bonus damage.

[Vortenger]

I went through this at low levels with my summoner as well.

Intimidate is your friend on a charisma based caster. Trading your standard to grant a -2 to most of the things you care about to the target of your eidolon/party is never a waste. Tanglefoot bags and smoke sticks allow you to have some other inexpensive crowd control that will benefit the party. Entangling is an excellent condition to hand out at low levels. Using the alchemical combining device oft mentioned in N. Jolly's Alchemist guide (AFB, sorry for the lack of name) lets you pair (some) alchemical items together for decent damage output if that's more your thing (I always think of damage as the eidolon's thing). The crossbow is your last resort.

As having played a summoner for over a year I suggest you do not let augment summoning work on a regular eidolon. It's way to strong if they're damaged focused. There's already a way to do that baked into the game using the Summon Eidolon spell, and that is a much more balanced approach.



I mean, sure it's a good feat, but that's only a +2 to Attack/Damage/CMB/ etc, and +2 HP/level (and Fort).

And it just lets me use pouncing death machines against the party and not feel bad about it

Good?! Name one other feat that grants that kind of benefit to another full-time party member. Just one. I would take it every time. If you can't imagine not taking a feat, it's too good. [In this instance we're talking about weapon focus, imp. weapon focus, weapon specialization, Greater Fortitude and Toughness+ as one feat...] Finding Halleen, eat your heart out.

[Lappy9001]

Good?! Name one other feat that grants that kind of benefit to another full-time party member. Just one. I would take it every time. If you can't imagine not taking a feat, it's too good. [In this instance we're talking about weapon focus, imp. weapon focus, weapon specialization, Greater Fortitude and Toughness+ as one feat...] Finding Halleen, eat your heart out.You do realize this is turning into an argument about giving something really nice to a melee character? Nevermind, terrible idea :smalleek:

[Anlashok]

Good?! Name one other feat that grants that kind of benefit to another full-time party member.

Leadership... Dazing Spell... Sacred Geometry, Divine Protection...

Frankly Power Attack is probably a comparable force multiplier too. The ones above blow that stuff out of the water though.

[NightbringerGGZ]

You do realize this is turning into an argument about giving something really nice to a melee character?

A melee character who can already have natural flight, energy attack, tons of attack at full BAB and a private buff bot? Eidelons out shining low tier martials is a legitimate problem.

[Spore]

:smallconfused:
I'm confused.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work?
The Eidolon is the "real" PC, and it has a class feature to get you a Spellcaster-Companion. :smalltongue:

It is. And that is why I prefer the Master Summoner. It still has the toolkit of summons, the go-to eidolon is a tool kit one (yes they outshine rogues, but how doesn't? :smallamused:) instead of a big mean destruction machine and your PC is kind of bard-light.

It's a decent T3 caster with a T4 assistant. The standard summoner is a T3 caster with a T3 melee. And that is the main problem here. Summoners aren't as powerful as say wizards. But they are effectively two very good characters. And they can effectively do things better than other PCs, say fighters.

E.g.: My Summoner with his Eidolon (Angel, so one heavy twohander attack, magical flight, large size) could've dumped all of his spell slots on his eidolon. Then the rogue would've been ineffective (ranged with arcane archer levels and terrible BAB) and the fighter could not even reach the flying lich we were fighting.

My character did everything he could to support the weak T5 classes and still the angel outdamaged them by a truckload.

[Killer Angel]

- Don't aply augment summoning to eidolon. Seriously.

+1.

Possibly, you may consider to apply it to the spell "summon eidolon".

[Vortenger]

You do realize this is turning into an argument about giving something really nice to a melee character?



A melee character who can already have natural flight, energy attack, tons of attack at full BAB and a private buff bot? Eidelons out shining low tier martials is a legitimate problem.

This. After a year in campaign with a mildly optimized summoner, the eidolon I ran was emasculating the battle performance of the barbarian, the ninja, the gunslinger, and the blaster sorcerer. An eidolon is not a character. It is a class feature that is a T3 character on its own, let alone the T2 or 3 caster that swings it like its his greatsword. This is about preserving nice things for melee classes, not adding another reason why casters do it better. A summoner taking one feat that eclipses a level or two of a real martial class hurts martials.


Leadership... Dazing Spell... Sacred Geometry, Divine Protection...

Frankly Power Attack is probably a comparable force multiplier too. The ones above blow that stuff out of the water though.

Don't those benefit yourself, primarily? The request was, "Name one other feat that grants that kind of benefit to another full-time party member." Not indirectly making their lives easier through the power of your own awesomeness. Thats easy. Play a wizard. (who coincidently benefits most from several of the above)

None of this was meant to incite an argument, just offering my opinion based on a couple of years experience dealing with the class in question. Note that several others heartily agree.

[Ssalarn]

You do realize this is turning into an argument about giving something really nice to a melee character?

Actually, it's about giving something really nice to a full caster's class feature, which itself is already capable of filling several party roles as good as or better than some classes (and doing so efficiently pretty much straight out the gate and only widening the gap as the party levels up).