Some Ideas on the Crazy Alchemist

[Krymoar]

Was considering a Crazy Alchemist as a character concept, mainly looking at using:

Tavern Brawler for proficiency with improvised weapons

Items like Acid, Alchemist's Fire, Holy Water, and Oil/Torch combos

Rogue for Sneak Attack damage by throwing them as a ranged weapon.

I made this write-up (http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2k325x/the_crazy_alchemist_ideas_and_discussion_welcome/) for it, but didn't really get the discussion out of it or other class ideas I was looking for.

What are your ideas?

P.S.: I have lurked around here for a while now, but just registered, if I did anything wrong, please don't be too harsh.

[GutterFace]

I can see at lower levels this being not exactly cost effective, and or you might run out of supplies when you are in the wilds.
having minor creation will be a boon, if you can get it.

Other than that i want to see where this goes... how does this work with reactions and such.

[Krymoar]

Sure, throwing an acid vial that costs 25 gp at an enemy that only has 12 hp wouldn't be cost effective, but it would be AWESOME.

I would just love doing (1d4)+13+(4d6) damage at level four though, and just watch everyone look as the poor Bandit die in a most horrific way.

I think a lot of the time, you might find yourself throwing oil(2sp) flasks and then maybe running up and smacking them with a torch, or throwing it if your DM will still allow the fire damage, so you can get your sneak attack bonus.

Maybe even run up and grab them, maybe more effective if you just put the ground under them on fire, by setting a trap beforehand.

The rules for item creation don't help much either because (I guess) they were trying to avoid abusing the economy, it will technically take you five days to create an acid vial.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Excellent writeup, but you really do run up against rules problems with the damage scaling poorly.

I think its important to emphasize using alchemical items in ways not explicitly addressed by the rules.

*weaken ropes with acid
*splash someone in the face with acid (dex to avoid blinded?)
*spreading oil or alchemical fire across water and setting the water surface on fire

Its also probably worth mentioning that the Wizard's School of Transmutation bonuses can be played pretty well as an alchemist. The Transmuter's Stone is basically a Philosopher's Stone, including being able to transmute objects to another substance.

[GutterFace]

100% agree, it is AWESOME :)

i had a goblin rogue in 3.5 with a custom aspergillium that stored acid for SA. hilarity ensued. he spent his time dressed as a crazy priest. ranged touch attack for all the SA....yes please.

anyways i digress. i love acid in D&D. but wait....just wait....rumors have it the DMG might have gunpowder. how you can throw grenades as well....

[Krymoar]

@TheDeadlyShoe Thanks


Excellent writeup, but you really do run up against rules problems with the damage scaling poorly.

What do you mean by run up against rules problems with the damage scaling poorly?

I think the rules work, I just think they would be intimidating to a DM, who may basically just tell you no because of how much you are stacking on/explaining all at once. It is all very simple but some people may just be unfamiliar with it. You are basically saccing resources to do more damage.

As far as scaling, if you compare to a shortbow (1d6) + 13 + (2d6) at level 4, assuming you are optimizing the same say, you will see you are an entire 1d6 and 1d4 ahead of the game. And this is just with what's in the PHB, hopefully there will be more stuff with the DMG, also the possibility of if you crafted your own stuff, maybe seeing if you could roll to create HQ versions.

Definitely would look into other uses for alchemical stuff, I mentioned pre-applying oil to an area before you fought enemies, but finding utility in a thousand other ways is also amazing.


Its also probably worth mentioning that the Wizard's School of Transmutation bonuses can be played pretty well as an alchemist. The Transmuter's Stone is basically a Philosopher's Stone, including being able to transmute objects to another substance.

This is an awesome idea, and should probably be expanded on, I was looking more for a Science vs. Magic feel.

Also, I wanted to make throwing the potions a GOOD option, as a wizard (because of your poor dex, no sneak attack damage, among other things) most situations it would just be better to use your spells. Where I posted it, someone mentioned acid splash, which works for fluff, but then your alchemy becomes "CounterSpellable" and has you using Somatic and Verbal components, which I really dislike, I want it to work thematically and mechanically.

[Krymoar]

anyways i digress. i love acid in D&D. but wait....just wait....rumors have it the DMG might have gunpowder. how you can throw grenades as well....

Keeping my fingers crossed.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

My worry with the rules is that throwing a vial does the same damage always, absent Sneak Attack bonuses. Using them doesnt seem to count as an attack but rather as an action in and of themselves so it doesnt scale with Extra Attack. Though that's up to the DM.


Also, I wanted to make throwing the potions a GOOD option, as a wizard (because of your poor dex, no sneak attack damage, among other things) most situations it would just be better to use your spells. Where I posted it, someone mentioned acid splash, which works for fluff, but then your alchemy becomes "CounterSpellable" and has you using Somatic and Verbal components, which I really dislike, I want it to work thematically and mechanically.

I was thinking more like going Rogue 5/Wizard 6/ Rogue +9. There's nothing wrong with having Dex on a wizard after all.

it's true you are technically counterspellable, but the components are pretty easy to fluff away with some thought. Pick spells carefully and make sure they fit the theme and it can work.

For example, Cloudkill is Verbal/Somatic - I can see a 'crazy alchemist' huffing and puffing on some sort of air-pumped gas thrower. Silence means he cant get enough breath, and obviously he needs his hands free to work the device... :D

a quick glance through some low level "Alchemy" spells -

Continual Flame (pure form of alchemical fire!)
Counterspell (thrown shards of countermagical essence!)
Expeditious Retreat/Jump/Longstrider (drugs!)
Grease (o come on)
Sleep (Sleepy gas!)

That's all largely utility stuff - you can still use it with a potion chucker!

[Krymoar]

My worry with the rules is that throwing a vial does the same damage always, absent Sneak Attack bonuses. Using them doesnt seem to count as an attack but rather as an action in and of themselves so it doesnt scale with Extra Attack. Though that's up to the DM.

Yeah, very aware of this, which is why I think Rogue is definitely the way to go, he scales on having a single attack/turn, Fighter is basically out unless you can have a DM rule against the way potions say they work.


it's true you are technically counterspellable, but the components are pretty easy to fluff away with some thought. Pick spells carefully and make sure they fit the theme and it can work.

Definitely a way to add some flavor with spells, you could call them alchemy or you could go for a Full Metal Alchemist style, where they are basically the same thing.

I just meant that that wasn't what I was going for, a lot of concepts I see just seem to be "add magic until desired result is achieved" and that's just not for me. Feel free to theory-craft away, don't let what I want hinder your imagination in any way. :smallsmile: