A meeting of Religous ways...

[TheWombatOfDoom]

...of views, of times, of yesterdays.

This is for the game Empire! and for the players TheWombatOfDoom and Zabbarot.

Please refrain from reading unless involved in the actual discussion by a character.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Alright. So Ramhsa (note the "h" and "s" placement, people will mess that up as much as your religion with the "d" and the "j". :smallbiggrin:) is a inclusive religion that believes there are greater and lesser deities. The lesser deities are aspects or children of the greater deities, and the three main deities represent fire, water, and earth. So, the Silver lady would be an aspect of fire, or rather the subset, air. The Frost religion would be a child of the water deity, and so on. Basically, a more classificational and orderly way of viewing Radurja, if I understand it all. The only kicker is viewing "importance". For instance, some groups might not like that thier deity is a lesser one, or that others are greater.

[zabbarot]

Sorry, didn't see this sooner @_@

Just a bit of side information, in the Salterri Imperium the LoF and the Silver Lady may be married(literally maybe?) to form a new religion. So keep the in mind while you flesh this out. It'd be weird if your religion suggested they were father/daughter or something...

That's cool in general. So Ramhsa is basically about the hierarchy of the gods then? Radurja mostly has the hierarchy as levels of power, with Asili Mkuu at the top and small things at the bottom(like actual grains of sand, would probably have bacteria or viruses or something else at the bottom if they had microscopes). Everything exists somewhere on that spectrum. People, planets, gods, trees. So there is a certain hierarchy implied.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Sorry, didn't see this sooner @_@

Just a bit of side information, in the Salterri Imperium the LoF and the Silver Lady may be married(literally maybe?) to form a new religion. So keep the in mind while you flesh this out. It'd be weird if your religion suggested they were father/daughter or something...

That's cool in general. So Ramhsa is basically about the hierarchy of the gods then? Radurja mostly has the hierarchy as levels of power, with Asili Mkuu at the top and small things at the bottom(like actual grains of sand, would probably have bacteria or viruses or something else at the bottom if they had microscopes). Everything exists somewhere on that spectrum. People, planets, gods, trees. So there is a certain hierarchy implied.

Lord / Lady of Fire, Lady of Water, and Lord of Earth are higher on the food chain, and about equal with each other. They're each seperate beings that the rest of the things decend from.

That actually could work in line with my religion. But you mentioned me being a...denomination off of Radurja? How would we work that?

[zabbarot]

Denomination isn't really what I meant... I'm not sure what a good word would be... but the general idea would be that they could be two separate religions that work well together. From Radurja's side this is easy, so it's Ramhsa we gotta figure out.

Not sure how strange of a concept it might be to you, since I don't know your background. Abrahamic religions tend towards monotheism and the exclusion of other faiths, but most others seem pretty open. Hinduism pretty much accepts everything (a major basis for Radurja). In China it was not uncommon for people to practice Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism all at the same time. Anyways the point is IRL it isn't that uncommon.

So let's think about the actual goals of the religion I guess. Radurja doesn't believe in an end to the cycle of rebirth, just betterment. What would you say Ramhsa is about?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Before I answer, just wanna post some of our PM stuff here so I can loose it from my inbox. :smalltongue:





So Lyradiss has agreed to have the spread of Rajurda throughout its provinces. That means we're likely to be interacting a lot more, albeit hessitant at first. In light of religous issues in the past with Lyradis, as well as the fact that I'd been wanting to create a parthenon religion myself, before I realized you'd done the same thing I wanted to do, but with a different spin, I wanted to speak on what we could plot out and roleplay together.
Sure sure... So uh... You got ideas on where to start then? Did Lyradis have any local gods, or was it pretty much monotheistic LoF previously?

Lyradis converted to LoF from elemental spirit worship a few decades after the settled in region 13, due to the adjacent Temple of Fire. Remenants of that basic faith emphasized the Lord of Fire, as Fire was one of the basic three Gods - Sky, Earth, and Ocean. Fire represented the sky and the sun, Water the ocean and other bodies of water, Earth the mountains and such. The merfolk of Borlmyn worship one of the three - Ocean, while the dwarves of Mularuhm at least at one point worshiped Earth. It is believed that the Salterri empire might have taken a portion of this general belief to form the Silver Sea teachings. With the other Gods and religions popping up, it might be believed that there are lesser and greater Gods, or perhaps the lessers are denizens or children of the greater enitities.

Selyra worships spirts, but they're elemental in origin.

I figure that you folk might like the idea of a Triad of Gods...:smallwink:

Saw your message, replying to this to keep the info here though.

Radurja is the over all belief in a unified reality, and that all things (gods included) are parts of a single whole. In general I've been letting the people who come up with things figure out how they fit in. I definitely think you should see about a link between the earth god and She of Silver Spear. You should do a write up of it in the Codex =D




So I've been thinking about this religion you've started for a bit. Have you fluffed up what it does yet?

Radurja is very open, but lawful neutral. So long as it can jive with that I'm thinkin' maybe we could find a way that the two religions could work in tandem? There are real world examples I can think of here and there where people embrace one religion but also keep practicing another at the same time. Like Haiti, Haiti is a great example. There's a saying that goes something like "Haiti is roughly 80% Catholic and 100% Voodoo."

Just a thought. Also sorry I haven't been able to contact you on skype :/ It's been a busy week.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Ramhsa is of the opinion that most religions are centered around one aspect of the greater picture that is the spectrum. So Lord of Fire is recognized as a religion, and accepted as a religion, but it's worshipers are seen as...part of Ramhsa, whether it is acknowledged by the other religions or not. It's basically a...we know that there have to be multiple gods, because we have seen evidence of their powers through different places...so they both exist and here is how.

On rebirth, that much is unclear. There is a sort of cycle. In terms of when you die, you become one with the elements - you body breaks down into purer substances, so I suppose there's this view of joining with these larger powers. It's more complicated than rebirth, but follows a similar notion.

I'd say Ramhsa is about finding order within the choas. Its about finding the way for many seperate ideas to come together, to exist simultaneously, in a way that doesn't contradict.

[zabbarot]

Alright. So far they're quite similar in many ways. The primary difference I'm seeing right now is that Radurja believes all things are facets of Asili Mkuu, and Ramhsa does not.

So... lets dig deeper. Ramhsa is an old religion right? Pre-cataclysm even. Maybe part of it's beliefs draw from that?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Alright. So far they're quite similar in many ways. The primary difference I'm seeing right now is that Radurja believes all things are facets of Asili Mkuu, and Ramhsa does not.

So... lets dig deeper. Ramhsa is an old religion right? Pre-cataclysm even. Maybe part of it's beliefs draw from that?

Pre-cataclysm, yes. (Call it the great caucauphony, as the cataclysm happened in the north, and the shockwave reached south and caused a mess down there).

Have we ever decided what actually caused the cataclysm? Is Radurja reaching from pre cataclysm? Is it connected to your people's past pre migration to the north at all? I ask, because our peoples both originated from the south, and it would be interesting what might have influenced both religions to be the way they are.

Ramhsa believes that everything is under the umbrella of "nature" and "law". Similar to the life cycle. Gods down to the bacteria, is all connected in a balance. Get off balance, and things start going a little haywire. Disasters and things.

[zabbarot]

Pre-cataclysm, yes. (Call it the great caucauphony, as the cataclysm happened in the north, and the shockwave reached south and caused a mess down there).

Have we ever decided what actually caused the cataclysm? Is Radurja reaching from pre cataclysm? Is it connected to your people's past pre migration to the north at all? I ask, because our peoples both originated from the south, and it would be interesting what might have influenced both religions to be the way they are.

Ramhsa believes that everything is under the umbrella of "nature" and "law". Similar to the life cycle. Gods down to the bacteria, is all connected in a balance. Get off balance, and things start going a little haywire. Disasters and things.

Radurja is not that old. It was established on the first turn of the game through a vision Mosi received. I forget what year that is, but it's definitely young. Still fairly old as far as the other in game religions go though. The religion doesn't have any historical ties though.

The immigration that brought the humans of the Triumvirate north could be related to the cacophony though. I hadn't really thought about it :smalltongue:

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Radurja is not that old. It was established on the first turn of the game through a vision Mosi received. I forget what year that is, but it's definitely young. Still fairly old as far as the other in game religions go though. The religion doesn't have any historical ties though.

The immigration that brought the humans of the Triumvirate north could be related to the cacophony though. I hadn't really thought about it :smalltongue:

Interesting. What was your reglion before enlightenment? And you moved North toward the source of the Cacophony? :smallconfused:

It would just be interesting if pre Genivanans were familiar with the religion of Ramhsa.

[zabbarot]

Interesting. What was your reglion before enlightenment? And you moved North toward the source of the Cacophony? :smallconfused:

It would just be interesting if pre Genivanans were familiar with the religion of Ramhsa.

Hey, I established that they went north in the pregame when I wrote Genivana up. There wasn't even a theory of a cataclysm at that point :smalltongue: And really it was only something they claimed until Morph made it true by having the first Salterri look like Genivanans. Not sure what's happened since then. They sort of just stopped being black for the most part. The Salterri I mean.

Before establishing Radurja, they worshiped the ocean to some degree. The mawa worshiped Mwalimu in their own way. I had some ancestor worship mixed in.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Hey, I established that they went north in the pregame when I wrote Genivana up. There wasn't even a theory of a cataclysm at that point :smalltongue: And really it was only something they claimed until Morph made it true by having the first Salterri look like Genivanans. Not sure what's happened since then. They sort of just stopped being black for the most part. The Salterri I mean.

Before establishing Radurja, they worshiped the ocean to some degree. The mawa worshiped Mwalimu in their own way. I had some ancestor worship mixed in.

Haha, I know, I'm just wondering if you wanted to cement some fluff for your prehistory. Morph agreed that they did, but did you ever get a region? Discordia's people have never been fluffed, and neither have Bracia's as far as I know. Yeah, I don't know what's going on with their skin tones. I know the Carmines are relatives of Old Lyradis, at least in rumor, same as New Lyradis, which is why Lyradis never charged in to reclaim their rightful place totally. But to figure out why your people traveled north to match the fluff would be fun. I like connecting dots. I'm a history nerd.

And then from ancestor worship, you went to grand ancestor which is what Mosi became. Hmmmmm. Does your religion have a problem with mine recognizing the Great Ancestor as actually the three great elementals? If not, then I think we'd be good. Reincarnation for you is rejoining for me.

[zabbarot]

after some thought I've decided that keeping the quotes when this is a two way conversation is kinda silly : P

Anyways, I remember Morph saying something about darker skin=lower class due to working outdoors and old conquering. So the basics of the story are something like, the cacophony made a mess of things, that put more pressure on the lower class, large groups left to find a better life. This may or may not assume that the Imperium predates the cataclysm, just that life was hard on those at the bottom.

I would clarify that Mosi is not the great ancestor. He doesn't even consider himself an avatar of the great ancestor. He's just gained some small degree of mastery over his own will. And within Radurja Asili Mkuu is everything. The comparison I usually go with is the ocean. Within the ocean there are individual currents and tides, but these all eventually subside. Asili Mkuu is the ocean. We are the currents. So of course he's the three great elementals :smallwink:

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Interesting...and you guys get along with the imperium? Haha. With their attack of Hrathan Tuor, and your back history with them, its interesting how things have worked out. The Imperium (in canon) does indeed predate the Cataclysm, but they didn't become very involved in the mainland of the south until after the fall of Old Lyradis, as my people wandered about Bracia and Saltiere and it was just filled with monsters (orcs) and animals and plains and no people to speak of. It wasn't until they went north to Qarimos that they encountered people.

So, you all probably came up from the penninsula, and either crossed on ships or by land through Grizzland.

Between when the Lyradissians fled the south and when the Salterri attacked Hrthan-Tuor, the Imperium got a large hold on the southern continent, drove away the Kells (presumably into the polar regions) and then Vassalized the regions it liberated. There's been some speculation that not all the Lyradissians fled, and these were the people vassalize, and still others speculate that the Kells and the Imperium are one and the same. Who knows. I sure don't. But i aim to find out.

Anyway, back to religion...

It seems the key elements (hur hur) of our religions are similar enough for this to work. I suppose we could go through Girard's pilgrimage then, and reverse fluff what's been happening, since I've been intentionally vague on things.

Tell me, have you tried doing this with other religions, such as Ashmar, or the Children of Kina?

[zabbarot]

To be honest... Genivana probably has the shakiest relation with the Imperium, just because the Church has a much longer memory than most institutions. We did do our good will attempts though, like reigning in Ignato when he tried to conquer the Priory.

But back to religion; I actually had an idea last night while driving to get my wife ice cream.So the whole tech tree I've got relies on Osuro, and more specifically people trained to use osuro and then manipulate the world around them. While cool and fluffy, this isn't really the best way to have a wide spread power source. But then this song came on the radio.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HLF9a1UF6Y

The song isn't the most relevant thing, but I like it so I linked it anyways :smalltongue: See, if Osuro tech is all powered basically by force of will, then the next step to make it usable by the wider populace might be to power it with bound spirits. That's just a bit outside of what Radurja would consider though.

However, we haven't really gotten into Ramhsa's beliefs on the relationship between men and spirits. Perhaps the idea of spirit binding might not be so strange to them? Then we can work together to have a future of clean burning magic, instead of that awful coal :smallwink:

About other religions, I spoke to lt_murgen briefly and Waylmader even more briefly. Murgen is ok with collaboration, but has his own goals long term. Way has no interest in it whatsoever, even going so far as to consider Radurja heretical in his lands. There is a much juicier conversion in the works though... I'll pm you about it actually, because I won't risk someone hearing about it before things are finalized.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Well well well...I've been dabbling with the idea that Ramhsa flows both ways in the "cycle". In terms of, not only do when we die, we flow back to the elements and spirits, but while we live, they can flow into us. Maybe in that sense, tapping the power of the deities and the spirits would be pretty much what the Avatar of Fire is doing, or even what Mosi is doing. A spirit has flowed into him, and his sense of awareness allows him to control that power. Even the windbenders that Lt_murgen has seems to line up with this so far...

[zabbarot]

I see. And do you think we could translate that into 'spirit batteries' that effectively could allow these technological advances to be used by the uninitiated (read: average citizen)? Perhaps we could tap into what Snowfire wants to do with the Illuminated texts. We have text that can record effectively living memories, so maybe with a step further we can effectively record 'power'. So now we've effectively worked out enchantment. Just items with long bits of scripture on them as a power source. It would look cool at least.

I like where this is going regardless. I say we need to build up the differences between the religions a bit. Ramhsa is significantly older than Radurja, maybe it should have a few more hardline practices here and there?

[Snowfire]

I see. And do you think we could translate that into 'spirit batteries' that effectively could allow these technological advances to be used by the uninitiated (read: average citizen)? Perhaps we could tap into what Snowfire wants to do with the Illuminated texts. We have text that can record effectively living memories, so maybe with a step further we can effectively record 'power'. So now we've effectively worked out enchantment. Just items with long bits of scripture on them as a power source. It would look cool at least.

I like where this is going regardless. I say we need to build up the differences between the religions a bit. Ramhsa is significantly older than Radurja, maybe it should have a few more hardline practices here and there?

Wombat linked me in after I told him that you said could join in on the conversation at his say -so. As we seem to be using secretsecret protocols here:

Greater Illumination is something that will require a not insignificant amount of internal 'soul strength', the main reason for which is that it's forcing reality to do what a story says it should be doing. Whilst the Illuminated Passages will hold a degree of power in themselves, actually activating and directing that power will be...harder. On the note of enchantment though, the current state of Illumination is basically that. Illuminated Texts are books under an enchantment of Illusion. Greater Illumination will simply take it from Illusion to more concrete things. That said, it wouldn't necessarily be too difficult to modify Illumination - assuming you could give the Holy Order responsible for it a good reason for doing so, which I think the above would count as - into a stepping stone to some form of spirit battery technology.

Taking all that with what else is in this thread, this gives a solid basis for expansion on the use of the limited magics we have available at present - and Sucheta's Ascension will probably only quicken the pace as she won't be standing idle once she's worked out which way is up when you're a deity. She will also - given my projected path for her as a mortal and portfolio for her afterwards - be very supportive of the proliferation of Illumination and the other more refined uses of Osuro Mirc.

Let's make something awesome :smallsmile:

[zabbarot]

The spoilers are really only there to make people feel guilty for reading them when they know they're not supposed to : P
Yeah, we know you're reading these things. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I'm glad you could join us though. Reading your post reminded me that you probably missed out on the best example of magic this game has so far. Three witches fought a demon once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347290-Fires-in-the-North-APXONTAS-KAINE-OA-TON-KOSMO-EMPIRE!/page2). It was pretty righteous. Also it canonized the idea that Osuro is a basically a spiritual steroid. Consume enough and you will go super saiyan :smalltongue:

Back on topic though
If we get Illumination to the point where it's effectively "read this passage, create this effect" the real next step might be learning to right fiction. Then it goes from reproducing things you've seen to ... well anything :smalltongue: And now we've got a world where the primary magic classes are Psion and Artificer.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I see. And do you think we could translate that into 'spirit batteries' that effectively could allow these technological advances to be used by the uninitiated (read: average citizen)? Perhaps we could tap into what Snowfire wants to do with the Illuminated texts. We have text that can record effectively living memories, so maybe with a step further we can effectively record 'power'. So now we've effectively worked out enchantment. Just items with long bits of scripture on them as a power source. It would look cool at least.

I like where this is going regardless. I say we need to build up the differences between the religions a bit. Ramhsa is significantly older than Radurja, maybe it should have a few more hardline practices here and there?

Maybe. First, we'd have to see what kind of spiritual energy is permissable for imbuing things. For instance, I anticipate it might be something like putting a spirit into an object, and enlightening it. Meaning, the wielder of the object would then also have to attune to the object/spirit or be rejected.

Standby for more... gotta head home first though.

[zabbarot]

Wombat, we're still standing by, mate.

[Snowfire]

http://i.imgur.com/3KcnrPm.jpg

This cat is stuck in that box until you reply. Please don't make him suffer! :smalleek::smalltongue: Not any of my cats, nor actually stuck.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I'm so sorry! Things didn't happen the way I wanted them yesterday....

Anyway, I think thinking of spirits as batteries for powering items isn't the way to go with this. Instead, think of them as mergers. OR in Radurja - reincarnations. An object for instance can have a soul or spirit or entity merged with it, in some small or large part. Then, the object must become "illuminated", to be aware of its previous incarnations, or perhaps aware of the abilities it can possess. Then the person who would use it must attune to that spirit, or perhaps when it is illuminated it becomes illuminated through the person who would wield it.

In other words, its an action that can have multiple interpretations. For Ramhsa, they see it as gathering a denizen, representative, or energy from a deity or spirit, and then using then attuning with them toward a purpose. So making a blade cut better, or making things grow faster, or creating water, or something of the sort.

For Radurja, its more like taking a spirit and guiding its reincarnation into the object. Choosing the correct spirit not only takes time, but choosing the right person to attune to it is also not as easy.

For Ayava, it might even be that it's all just spiritual energy, and illuminating the object creates an awareness within the object, similar to how creating things out of stories might be.

In all three cases, the same thing occurs, for the same reasons, but has three different and equally viable applications. This would not limit the use of an object to only priests, but it would likely be a special kind of person to wield these objects, and it would be facilitated BY the church in all of these circumstance.

[zabbarot]

I started to drift away from the idea of actually binding a spirit into an item, partially because I still dunno how it'd work, but I got this:

Batteries was an over simplification, but as of right now Osuro-tech is powered by a trained mystic who channels the required energy out of the sort of background static around them. So the goal is to find more... transferable way to do that. So the uninitiated could conceivably also use technology.

This is why I like the idea of using Illumination for it in Radurja. Illumination recreates a memory from first person perspective, to the point that it can kill someone. So if the memory recreated was the channeling of energy to a specific purpose I imagine it would effectively be like a scroll in DnD. Basically the Illumination would autopilot them through the activation of the item.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Alright. So what else do you need from me right now? I found the action with Girard, he did the visitation in round 24, so about 15 years ago. I was looking to do another faith action/clairfy what my action was from last round to Quinton in keeping with the rules, so I need to know how we're spinning Ramhsa and Radurja.

[zabbarot]

For right now, I suppose the main things are our IC conversation between Girard and Shahidi Barasa or Antim... Barasa is likely bed ridden, but he can still talk so we can do that.

I guess the last thing for Ramhsa is keep working out what the major differences between it and Radurja are. Right now they seem similar enough that I think Radurja could overtake it completely as it gains favor in the rest of your Empire, and I'd rather not just sideline it.

For spin though, I guess you could say something like "Ramhsa is an ancient, ancestral religion that was recently rediscovered. It's general similarities with Radurja explain why, Radurja caught on so easily within the Empire."

[TheWombatOfDoom]

For right now, I suppose the main things are our IC conversation between Girard and Shahidi Barasa or Antim... Barasa is likely bed ridden, but he can still talk so we can do that.

I guess the last thing for Ramhsa is keep working out what the major differences between it and Radurja are. Right now they seem similar enough that I think Radurja could overtake it completely as it gains favor in the rest of your Empire, and I'd rather not just sideline it.

So, when you say over take it completely, how should we do that in terms of game mechanics?

Alright, let me get into RP mode. Kinda rusty. :smallredface:

[zabbarot]

So, when you say over take it completely, how should we do that in terms of game mechanics?

Alright, let me get into RP mode. Kinda rusty. :smallredface:

If it was completely overtaken, I guess the way to go would be to convert the leader of Ramhsa to Radurja. Along with most the regions. I dunno, we could ask Morph for general things. Way back he talked about the number of regions following a religion effecting 'Miracle rolls' or somethin. Maybe we could work it so all regions worshiping either religion counted for both, or maybe at least require a majority of one and a minority of the other.

I kind of would like for Religions to have their own little bonuses to give some sort of mechanical thing to 'em, but that's maybe a bit too gamey :smalltongue:

[TheWombatOfDoom]

If it was completely overtaken, I guess the way to go would be to convert the leader of Ramhsa to Radurja. Along with most the regions. I dunno, we could ask Morph for general things. Way back he talked about the number of regions following a religion effecting 'Miracle rolls' or somethin. Maybe we could work it so all regions worshiping either religion counted for both, or maybe at least require a majority of one and a minority of the other.

I kind of would like for Religions to have their own little bonuses to give some sort of mechanical thing to 'em, but that's maybe a bit too gamey :smalltongue:

I really think we should stop having morph add rules, and instead, have the rules added by miracles, curiosity actions, and ect. I think it could be pretty cool to have develop that way, but that's just me. Perhaps that's a bit too far, but it would be a neat idea to try on a second incarnation of this game.

It would be a shame for the Religion name to go away...what about just having it classified as under Radurja.

[zabbarot]

Yeah, I understand. I've been trying to angle my techs towards offering different options, more than just giving bonuses to things. And miracles can do so many things... Actually I will have a miracle available turn after next. 29? We could do something to 'unite' them with that?

I didn't think you'd want to have Ramhsa be overtaken by Radurja. Maybe it might be best to take it back to the drawing board? Right now the reason that I think Radurja worship might just gobble it up is because they're very similar and Radurja already has more momentum. If we can come up with something much more distinct, that might work better. What I really hoped for was a separate religion that could be practiced alongside Radurja.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Yeah, I understand. I've been trying to angle my techs towards offering different options, more than just giving bonuses to things. And miracles can do so many things... Actually I will have a miracle available turn after next. 29? We could do something to 'unite' them with that?

I didn't think you'd want to have Ramhsa be overtaken by Radurja. Maybe it might be best to take it back to the drawing board? Right now the reason that I think Radurja worship might just gobble it up is because they're very similar and Radurja already has more momentum. If we can come up with something much more distinct, that might work better. What I really hoped for was a separate religion that could be practiced alongside Radurja.

That's what I'm hoping for as well. SO how do we get THAT?

[zabbarot]

That is the tricky part : P

Did some reading. Syncretism is probably the right word for what we're thinking. It's when a people follow multiple belief systems side by side, sometimes forming a new system through the combination. For real world examples I think we should look at Three Teachings which was the combination of Buddhism, Confuscianism, and Taoism. Radurja is this comparison is most like Buddhism, so if Ramhsa was something like Taoism or Confuscianism I think it'd be easy to work out how they can work together. That would make Ramhsa a bit less about gods and more about how to act.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

That is the tricky part : P

Did some reading. Syncretism is probably the right word for what we're thinking. It's when a people follow multiple belief systems side by side, sometimes forming a new system through the combination. For real world examples I think we should look at Three Teachings which was the combination of Buddhism, Confuscianism, and Taoism. Radurja is this comparison is most like Buddhism, so if Ramhsa was something like Taoism or Confuscianism I think it'd be easy to work out how they can work together. That would make Ramhsa a bit less about gods and more about how to act.

You know, considering that the Lyradissians have a pacifist sort of mindset, or at least a "act in defence, not in envy or rage", having a "how to act" philosophy as part of the religion might be interesting to accomodate. Perhaps there would be different ways, based on a deity, that would draw you closer to them for when you joined upon death, or something of the sort....

[zabbarot]

Oh, yeah that could work. So you have your great elementals, and each one can embody a mindset or certain traits. Perhaps Ramhsa preaches a middle road that tries to embraces the best qualities of each while tempering their faults. Or maybe it's about sort of picking a sort of totem god to attempt to epitomize. Though the elements have pretty standard personifications if you go with something like this. Fire is passion and action. Earth is steadfast and reliable. That sort of thing.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Oh, yeah that could work. So you have your great elementals, and each one can embody a mindset or certain traits. Perhaps Ramhsa preaches a middle road that tries to embraces the best qualities of each while tempering their faults. Or maybe it's about sort of picking a sort of totem god to attempt to epitomize. Though the elements have pretty standard personifications if you go with something like this. Fire is passion and action. Earth is steadfast and reliable. That sort of thing.

I really like that, and think I could have a lot of fun not only coming up with things, but having people bring in their own interpretations to things, based on their adherance. This works for me.

So, now that that's the case, do I tell Quinton that my Faith 5 worked as in the rules and everyone gets a minority? Does it convert all my Radurja to Ramhsa? Does it do what I originally thought it did but was wrong and have it start in Triumph and Requiem, and I spread it manually? :smallconfused:

[zabbarot]

I really like that, and think I could have a lot of fun not only coming up with things, but having people bring in their own interpretations to things, based on their adherance. This works for me.

So, now that that's the case, do I tell Quinton that my Faith 5 worked as in the rules and everyone gets a minority? Does it convert all my Radurja to Ramhsa? Does it do what I originally thought it did but was wrong and have it start in Triumph and Requiem, and I spread it manually? :smallconfused:

Well, Requiem was an honest mistake. So I'm sure you can start it in Triumph. By rules you have a majority there and a minority in all other holdings. And that's fine, IMO. Converting all your Radurja to Ramhsa would be beyond the scope of the rules, also it would make me sad :smalltongue:

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Well, Requiem was an honest mistake. So I'm sure you can start it in Triumph. By rules you have a majority there and a minority in all other holdings. And that's fine, IMO. Converting all your Radurja to Ramhsa would be beyond the scope of the rules, also it would make me sad :smalltongue:

Then what is our goal for how we do it? Have a majority of Ramhsa AND Radurja, and have it where they maintain a union, which is why they can both be a mojority?

[zabbarot]

Then what is our goal for how we do it? Have a majority of Ramhsa AND Radurja, and have it where they maintain a union, which is why they can both be a mojority?

Well, there a couple things we could possibly do.


Dual Majority Radurja/Ramhsa in all holdings - probably a lot of work, and dual majorities bug me
Majority Ramhsa in your holdings, Majority Radurja in mine, minorities of the other
Majority Ramhsa in Triumph, Minority in all Radurjic regions.
Any of the above routes followed by an official unification when we feel it's appropriate.


Actually in this case dual majority wouldn't bother me as much since it's fluffed as the populace following both religions. The only existing case was fluffed as half the populace following one religion and the other half following another, but they're both monotheistic religions so I guess that was the best they could do at the time.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Well, there a couple things we could possibly do.


Dual Majority Radurja/Ramhsa in all holdings - probably a lot of work, and dual majorities bug me
Majority Ramhsa in your holdings, Majority Radurja in mine, minorities of the other
Majority Ramhsa in Triumph, Minority in all Radurjic regions.
Any of the above routes followed by an official unification when we feel it's appropriate.


Let's for now go with minorities in all Radurjic regions. If we decide a better method, or a different one on the list, then we'll be in prime shape to do so with that. I'm fine with minorities, but I'd like a Majority in Requiem (in case I lose/give up/something else Triumph). Especially since I've started a temple in Requiem anyways. :smallwink:

Edit: Just saw your edit. Alright. Well for now lets just build up what I just said, and we can go from there. We'll merger the religions at some point. :smallwink:

I think I'm ready for that Roleplay now. :) Could you set the setting Girard would be coming to?

[zabbarot]

Let's for now go with minorities in all Radurjic regions. If we decide a better method, or a different one on the list, then we'll be in prime shape to do so with that. I'm fine with minorities, but I'd like a Majority in Requiem (in case I lose/give up/something else Triumph). Especially since I've started a temple in Requiem anyways. :smallwink:

Edit: Just saw your edit. Alright. Well for now lets just build up what I just said, and we can go from there. We'll merger the religions at some point. :smallwink:

I think I'm ready for that Roleplay now. :) Could you set the setting Girard would be coming to?

In that case the Faith action puts you halfway there. You'll have majority in requiem and minority in the rest of your regions... So only... 15 more regions to put minorities in :smalltongue:. You'll have to check with Logic about his.


-------------------------------------------

[Msikiti wa Asili Mkuu, Elder Shahidi's living quarters, Miji Mkuu, Genivana]

It was a balmy day in Miji Mkuu, but that largely open air structure of the temple combined with the shade of the massive trees, and the cool breeze from the Nadanada kept the temperature down to comfortable levels. Not to the point that someone would recommend anything but short pants, but livable. The temple hallways were full of activity, and now and then on the way through there were glimpses of internal vegetable gardens being worked by young watafiti. The temples fed their own after all, not to mention the needy.

A pair of mashahidi led Girard up to Eldest Shahidi Barasa's door. "We ask that you enter alone so as not to crowd him. He is getting on in years." Inside was a comfortable looking bed and some sparse furniture. Most notably one wall was completely open to a balcony that looked north-east across Unification Square. A lone attendant sat bedside.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

[10/31/14 4:54:58 PM] TheWombatOfDoom: Girard nods to the cleric, and enters the room quietly. Respectfully. He bows to the attendant, and then bows deeply to the Eldest. He waited acknowledgement from the Eldest, not presuming to interrupt his meditation.

[10/31/14 4:58:29 PM] Zabbarot (Lukas Maximus): Elder Barasa doesn't move but he has a presence that seems to fill the room. "You seem troubled. Come. Pull up a chair and tell me what ails you." He coughed lightly.

[10/31/14 7:48:44 PM] TheWombatOfDoom: Girard steps forward, and brings the chair. He sits next to the old man, and settles into it. He pauses for a moment. "Elder, I seek many answers, but I know not the questions to ask."

[zabbarot]

OOC: sorry it was a busy weekend.

The elder sat quiet for a moment before responding. "Is this about Adam?" It had been years, but the event had left it's scars.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

OOC: sorry it was a busy weekend.

The elder sat quiet for a moment before responding. "Is this about Adam?" It had been years, but Girard had been there in person. Few who had were still living. "Don't let a madman shake your faith. If someone began shouting that night was light and day was dark would you begin to doubt the sun?"

OOC: It was for me as well! I don't believe Girard was there. That was Liam, his Cousin. Or something like that, I'm not really sure how cousins work. Liam was his Grandmother, Lyra's - Brother's - son. Or something like that.

[zabbarot]

OOC: It was for me as well! I don't believe Girard was there. That was Liam, his Cousin. Or something like that, I'm not really sure how cousins work. Liam was his Grandmother, Lyra's - Brother's - son. Or something like that.

my bad, edited

[TheWombatOfDoom]

The elder sat quiet for a moment before responding. "Is this about Adam?" It had been years, but the event had left it's scars.

Girard paused. "I suppose that it does have something to do with Adam the Chard, but not directly. Those events happened before the Empire of Dawn had fully formed, after all. But he is partly responisible to where we are today, at least in regards to faith. After the events at the Blazing Temple, the Serendel family, including myself, fell into a time of...searching. Who wouldn't, in such a time? The Lord of Fire seemed to have been used in such a way...to spread evil...the man used his power to become...a demon. A blasphem. He caused drought, and dispair. As devout followers of the Lord of Fire, we had hoped for more after such loyalty. Even though faithful, Lord Liam still was eventually killed, and before that maimed, for protecting his Kingdom."

Girard shook his head. He hadn't been alive more than a smattering of years when the events of the temple had occured, and Liam had been changed afterward. As his page, Girard had witnessed first hand the drastic change in his mentor's demeanor. Hardened. Unfriendly. In pain. He hoped that wherever he had passed on, that he was whole again. He was a good man, and deserved a better end.

"After those events, the belief in the Lord of Fire began to wane. Not that he existed, but an unwillingness to follow a God that seemed to have turned his back on his people. Since Radurja had played a part in Adam's defeat, it was only natural for them to begin following Radurja, with Raanka's help to spread it."

[zabbarot]

OOC: Adam the Chard? I think you mean Charred.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/SwissChard.jpg
This probably isn't as funny as I think it is.


"You weren't the first to follow the Lord of Fire, and you won't be the last. I believe Shahidi Mkuu Mosi II had quite a bit to say on this subject. He saw the Lord of Fire in person at least once..." He coughed softly, and looked to his attendant. "Could you ask Shahidi Prabhat to go to the library and see what he can find on Mosi's talks with the Blazing Avatar." The attendant nodded eagerly and headed outside.

"The Lord of Fire is a ... distant god at times. In truth he has never been a specialty of mine. I grew up in Woodwind. There were a few religious movements in my youth, but the Lord of Fire never ... spoke to me particularly. I'm sorry if you feel you have lost your way, but you must remember that the events of that time were the acts of men, not the Lord of Fire."

[TheWombatOfDoom]

OOC: Adam the Chard? I think you mean Charred.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/SwissChard.jpg
This probably isn't as funny as I think it is.


"You weren't the first to follow the Lord of Fire, and you won't be the last. I believe Shahidi Mkuu Mosi II had quite a bit to say on this subject. He saw the Lord of Fire in person at least once..." He coughed softly, and looked to his attendant. "Could you ask Shahidi Prabhat to go to the library and see what he can find on Mosi's talks with the Blazing Avatar." The attendant nodded eagerly and headed outside.

"The Lord of Fire is a ... distant god at times. In truth he has never been a specialty of mine. I grew up in Woodwind. There were a few religious movements in my youth, but the Lord of Fire never ... spoke to me particularly. I'm sorry if you feel you have lost your way, but you must remember that the events of that time were the acts of men, not the Lord of Fire."

OOC: That is hilarious. I grinned like an idiot. Oh spelling errors.


Girard thought about this for a time. His people, his family, had all turned their backs on the Lord of Fire, seeing the acts of men speaking as patrons of their lord.

"If that is so, then why do the Gods have patrons at all? Weren't the Priest of the Blazing temple suppose to act in the name of the Lord of Fire?"

[zabbarot]

"Well... Let me put it this way. Do you have any children of your own? How often do they stray from what they're supposed to do? We are all lost children in a way," He paused briefly to take a drink of water. "We try to do what we're supposed to to, but often it is left to us to decide what that is. Adam was led astray by his own anger, and eventually used his own beliefs to justify his violence, to even call it necessary."

The elder shook his head. "Luckily it's rare that people like Adam manage to take such prominent positions. It's up to people like us to keep that from happening."

[TheWombatOfDoom]

"Well... Let me put it this way. Do you have any children of your own? How often do they stray from what they're supposed to do? We are all lost children in a way," He paused briefly to take a drink of water. "We try to do what we're supposed to to, but often it is left to us to decide what that is. Adam was led astray by his own anger, and eventually used his own beliefs to justify his violence, to even call it necessary."

The elder shook his head. "Luckily it's rare that people like Adam manage to take such prominent positions. It's up to people like us to keep that from happening."

"But our children grow to be like us, where as we do not grow into Gods. What you seem to be suggesting is that religion isn't neccessary. Why worship the Lord of Fire, if he chooses to let us find our own path, and not give any guidence, help, or what not? How would one who worships, and one who does not, differ?"

"For instance, for some, they are granted a certain power from the Lord of Fire. The Blazing Avatar. The Brotherhood of Fire at the Blazing Temple. Doesn't that dictate who he trusts, who he believes should have the power. Brother Adam thought so. I think all who have this power might. And for those that don't...how would I have any means to stand up to one such as that? Liam tried, and he was cut down."

[zabbarot]

"But our children grow to be like us, where as we do not grow into Gods. What you seem to be suggesting is that religion isn't neccessary. Why worship the Lord of Fire, if he chooses to let us find our own path, and not give any guidence, help, or what not? How would one who worships, and one who does not, differ?"

"For instance, for some, they are granted a certain power from the Lord of Fire. The Blazing Avatar. The Brotherhood of Fire at the Blazing Temple. Doesn't that dictate who he trusts, who he believes should have the power. Brother Adam thought so. I think all who have this power might. And for those that don't...how would I have any means to stand up to one such as that? Liam tried, and he was cut down."

"Are you so certain? Mosi grew into what he is. Loki Ethmorl grew into Lunakellai. It's happened before and it will likely happen again. The world is more complicated than you might believe just now. The Blazing Avatar carries a burden. He is the Lord of Fire's emissary among us, and despite that he is still just a mortal. The difference between him and you is clarity of purpose. The Blazing Avatar does not doubt. The Brotherhood of Fire devotes their every waking moment to the Lord of Fire. What do you do? Pray before meals? Before you go to bed each night? When you're preparing to take on a challenge? Do you honestly think these things are comparable to a life of worship?"

"Of course not, but still you are more blessed than you know. You have been a good king, emperor even. Your people trust you. They think you wise. Certainly you hold more power than Brother Adam."

[TheWombatOfDoom]

So Lyradiss has agreed to have the spread of Rajurda throughout its provinces. That means we're likely to be interacting a lot more, albeit hessitant at first. In light of religous issues in the past with Lyradis, as well as the fact that I'd been wanting to create a parthenon religion myself, before I realized you'd done the same thing I wanted to do, but with a different spin, I wanted to speak on what we could plot out and roleplay together.
Sure sure... So uh... You got ideas on where to start then? Did Lyradis have any local gods, or was it pretty much monotheistic LoF previously?

Lyradis converted to LoF from elemental spirit worship a few decades after the settled in region 13, due to the adjacent Temple of Fire. Remenants of that basic faith emphasized the Lord of Fire, as Fire was one of the basic three Gods - Sky, Earth, and Ocean. Fire represented the sky and the sun, Water the ocean and other bodies of water, Earth the mountains and such. The merfolk of Borlmyn worship one of the three - Ocean, while the dwarves of Mularuhm at least at one point worshiped Earth. It is believed that the Salterri empire might have taken a portion of this general belief to form the Silver Sea teachings. With the other Gods and religions popping up, it might be believed that there are lesser and greater Gods, or perhaps the lessers are denizens or children of the greater enitities.

Selyra worships spirts, but they're elemental in origin.

I figure that you folk might like the idea of a Triad of Gods...:smallwink:

Saw your message, replying to this to keep the info here though.

Radurja is the over all belief in a unified reality, and that all things (gods included) are parts of a single whole. In general I've been letting the people who come up with things figure out how they fit in. I definitely think you should see about a link between the earth god and She of Silver Spear. You should do a write up of it in the Codex =D

Girard still wasn't convinced that a mere mortal could ever attain Deity status, and he said so. "You and I don't seem to be talking about the same power. I have the power in terms of leadership, but even there I am a servant of my people. Should I decide to strike down a man for being wrong, I must also face those that believe he is right. In that sense, we both have power - the ability to influence others. The power I speak of is the power that also matched Adam the Charred, where Lord Liam failed. The ability to manipulate the very forces of the universe. Your ancestors who sparred magically with Adam, and those of Sycia. Without their abilities to quench Adam, perhaps Lyradis would have been lost to him. Not even other Brothers at the Blazing Temple could raise this power, despite their lives of Worship. So I ask: How does one who is devout, such as my Ancestor, Lord Liam, have the ability to do what the Gods wish of him. He thought it a test of his faith. But if the Lord of Fire is not so close to the events of the world, perhaps he was wrong."

[zabbarot]

"If Brother Adam has anything to teach you it's that seeking that kind of power can be dangerous. Just because he believed it was the Lord of Fire who answered him doesn't mean it's true. I have studied Shahidi Mkuu Shvedrishti's writings on Brother Adam. He was a monster. The power he held did not come from the Lord of Fire. In her own words "he rose up, a horned beast twice the height of a man. His skin was like cooling embers." That was his true form, as perceived through the anga lingine. There are creatures that are anathema to the gods. You have heard the tales of the demon toad? Or even the more recent rumors of Ridovo? These are not the work of the gods.

"The Lord of Fire may be distant at times, but as all gods he has a duty. And so too do you have a duty. You are an Emperor. Sometimes you will have to settle for the power to seek assistance. This is humility."