Overchannel and Cantrips

[Galen]

Overchannel, the 14th level Evoker ability, allows you to deal maximal damage with spells up to 5th level at the cost of taking 2d12 Necrotic damage per spell level. Cantrips have a spell level of zero. Does this mean a 14th level Evoker can deal maximal damage with Cantrips at no cost to himself? Is this a bug or a feature?

[pwykersotz]

It's a bug. Mearls suggests (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/489177462505353216) 1d12 necrotic for cantrips, but the wording can definitely be interpreted that RAW is no damage. It can also be interpreted with the marginal necrotic, but that's a less common reading. (Even if it's mine :smalltongue:) Crawford suggests (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/514844002500083712) similarly, that RAW there is no damage, but DM's may rule otherwise.

[MaxWilson]

Overchannel, the 14th level Evoker ability, allows you to deal maximal damage with spells up to 5th level at the cost of taking 2d12 Necrotic damage per spell level. Cantrips have a spell level of zero. Does this mean a 14th level Evoker can deal maximal damage with Cantrips at no cost to himself? Is this a bug or a feature?

I'd call it a feature. If someone is maximizing his Fire Bolt in order to stay in shouting distance of the Sharpshooter, he won't have maximization available for spike damage Scorching Ray IX or Meteor Swarm when he needs it. Seems like a valid choice to me but not a no-brainer.

(Hmmm, what happens if you maximize Wall of Fire? Automatic 40 damage for as long as you maintain it?)

[Shadow]

I'd call it a feature.

It's not a feature. It wasn't intended to be used with cantrips. There's a tweet somewhere that specifically says the words "Overchannel wasn't intended to be used with cantrips."
The fact that the text prohibiting its use with cantrips wasn't included was an oversight, so it falls to DM fiat.

[Lokiare]

Actually RAW you do maximize it. Due to Mearl's and Co's carelessness it is broken. I should actually put that into my build and see if it out does the others.

However Mearl's and Co suggest a house rule that makes the caster take damage as do others.

That's up to your DM, but since you have to house rule about half the game at this point to make it playable, why not. Unless of course you just give up and go find another game to play.

[Glarnog]

Has anyone crunched the numbers? It doesn't seem all that OP to me. I mean it is an Evoker after all.

[Shadow]

Has anyone crunched the numbers? It doesn't seem all that OP to me. I mean it is an Evoker after all.

straight level 20 Rogue with no multiclass, average damage with +3 rapier:
1d8 (rapier) +3 (magic) +5 (mod) +10d6 ~ 47.5

evoker at level 17 with firebolt:
4d10 (maximized) +5 = 45 at-will, every round, using no spell slots

Cantrips exist to provide casters with something to do, even when it isn't going to be great, when they don't want to use slots. Maximized cantrips at will is broken.

edit:
To put it another way, it's the same damage that any other wizard gets from a fireball spell cast in AN 8th LEVEL SLOT!

[Yagyujubei]

well....here's the problem (and why this is absurdly broken), cantrips scale with level due to the nature of the system, so at level 20 a cantrip is going to be stronger then any level 1 dps spell in existence. Obviously you're not meant to be using cantrips that have level 2-3 spell strength for free. otherwise you could be throwing around 60 damage eldritch blasts every turn for nothing.

or TWO of them if you also had meta magic. 120 dmg at no real cost is not balanced in any way.

[Eslin]

well....here's the problem (and why this is absurdly broken), cantrips scale with level due to the nature of the system, so at level 20 a cantrip is going to be stronger then any level 1 dps spell in existence. Obviously you're not meant to be using cantrips that have level 2-3 spell strength for free. otherwise you could be throwing around 60 damage eldritch blasts every turn for nothing.

or TWO of them if you also had meta magic. 120 dmg at no real cost is not balanced in any way.

You're already doing 4(5.5+3.5+5)= 56 damage eldritch blasts (112 if you're quickening) at that stage anyway, so are things unbalanced already?

[Lokiare]

You're already doing 4(5.5+3.5+5)= 56 damage eldritch blasts (112 if you're quickening) at that stage anyway, so are things unbalanced already?

I ran the numbers in my DPR thread. It causes the Wizard to pull ahead of some builds, but still not topped out on the top build which is supposedly 90+ DPR. I got it up past 56+ DPR which means its less broken than some builds, but more broken than others.

[Shadow]

I ran the numbers in my DPR thread. It causes the Wizard to pull ahead of some builds, but still not topped out on the top build which is supposedly 90+ DPR. I got it up past 56+ DPR which means its less broken than some builds, but more broken than others.

That's not broken for a warlock. EB is the main damage dealing aspect of the class. It's competetive, which means it's working.

Cantrips are not the main damage dealing aspect of the wizard class, so if the wizard is casting one of his cantrips in a competetive manner witrh the warlock's EB, while still having a full compliment of spell slots to use in addition to competetive at-will damage, that makes it broken.
There is a good reason that wiz & sorc cantrips are comparatively weak.