Critique my build, please.

[tcrudisi]

I'm currently level 2. I've got it "planned" up to level 5 or 6. I was given the stats to use by the DM. He rolled those in another game and they align pretty darn closely to the point buy (excepting the 17 instead of a 15), so he likes them.

My goal: Skill Monkey. I want to be decent in combat, but so far I've been completely overshadowed in combat by the other rogue who can actually roll a d20 and hit double-digits. My dice have failed me this game. I don't mind being the weak link in combat; I just don't want to suck.

What I have so far:
Half-Elf Rogue 1 / Cleric of Knowledge 1 / Sage Background
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 14

Trained Skills at Prof x2: Arcana, Deception, Nature, Perception
Trained Skills at Normal Prof bonus: History, Insight, Investigation, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Stealth

That leaves my untrained skills as: Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, Intimidation, Medicine, Performance, Religion, Survival

I also have the Guidance cantrip which I'm abusing like crazy.

So I already have /most/ skills trained. We'll hit level 3 next session.

My character was raised in an academic family. He was taught that self-improvement and knowledge were everything. So, when he became of age, he decided to work at a Temple to Oghma. He's not afraid to steal knowledge that isn't given away freely.

Tentatively planned:
Levels 3, 4, 5: Bard. I get a free skill when I MC into Bard. At level 3, the College of Lore gives me training in 3 more skills. This will put me at 4 untrained skills. It also lets me pick 2 more skills to have the doubled-prof bonus.

Level 6: Bard? This would give me an ability score boost. I'd take the Skilled feat instead and get training in 3 more skills. This would leave me at 1 untrained skill.

From there? I was thinking of going straight Rogue to help my combat capabilities. I've got the stats to also MC into Ranger to pick up that last skill - but how dang important is Performance anyway? Meh. I'd also love to pick up a Familiar somehow. We aren't getting advantage ... ever. The DM is only handing out inspiration to one guy (the new player in the group), so we aren't even getting to use that. I could at least use the Familiar to perform the Help action so I'd have permanent Advantage in combat. Sounds like a sweet deal for a Rogue. But how to go about that? 1 level dip in Wizard? Magic Initiate feat? Something else that I'm missing? Both of those feel like bad options: waste one of my ability score increases on Int or take a feat that increases Int by 1 (Keen Mind seems like the least craptacular option). The Magic Initiate feat itself doesn't seem to be very good; I'd be picking up a 1st level spell that I'd use once. Ever. But those benefits are so dang nice.

I dunno; I'm just mostly at a loss here. I'm still new to this system having only played 2 sessions and DM'ed 2 sessions and looking for advice. Where should I go beyond level 5? And if/when I do eventually go into Rogue, which sub-Rogue should I take?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

you're really losing out on class features with all these dips and it's really going to hurt at levels 4-6. Other players will be gaining Attribute Boosts, Feats, and Extra Attacks while you are just getting basic stuff from all your different classes. That other rogue in particularly will really be laughing with a 3d6 sneak attack while you are sitting at 1d6. If you don't have a firm objective in mind I would highly recommend against multiclassing.

IMO: Pick one of your existing classes and roll with it. Dump your other level if the DM will let you...

I'd pick the Knowledge Cleric. Their Channel Divinity gives you the ability to close literally any gap in your skills in a pinch. Clerics also get useful relevant spells, such as Enhance Ability to gain advantage on ability checks (=better at skills).


EDIT: Relevant for Rogues - hiding in combat can give you advantage on attacks. You need to duck behind cover then hide, which rogues can do as a bonus action using Cunning Action (level 2 ability). A number of things can give you bonuses to Hide.

[Gwendol]

A bard dip (2 levels) give you Jack of all Trades, which is covers all skills.
Other than that I agree that you need to gain advantage or always hit a target who has an enemy adjacent to trigger SA.

[MadBear]

I'd just like to jump on with what TheDeadlyShoe said. Multiclassing as much as you are will probably be a trap in the long run, and hurt you in the short term.

Pure rogue would suite you better if you want to focus on a couple skills to be really good at overall.

On the otherhand if you want to be the jack of all trades, a bard might suite your skill monkey idea better. Damage wise, you'll just need to grab offensive wizard spells, and other then that you'll contribute through making everyone else awesome. (or go valor bard and just be awesome yourself, albeit at less versatility).

With few exceptions, I've found that multiclassing generally makes you weaker, because during levels that others are getting more powerful abilities, you're still just getting basic features.

Edit: warning with the hiding mechanic. Some DM's will not let you hide using your cunning action if you've already been spotted. I disagree with this ruling, but there have been some who have argued the case vehemently, so just make sure your DM's on board before you try and rely on it.

[edge2054]

You can pick up find familiar at rogue 3 as one of your arcane trickster spells.

[Easy_Lee]

If you just want to play skill monkey, you should have gone warlock 2 / bard X. That gets you several expertise options and Jack of all trades. Your bard levels keep you useful to the party and warlock lets you get agonizing blast so you deal competitive damage.

With the build you have...I really don't know what to tell you. Retrain into something with more synergies, ideally. Or get yourself killed and reroll. But like they said, too much multiclassing wrecks your character this gen. You could be a rogue 2 / cleric and maybe do alright, if you get more wisdom.

[tcrudisi]

The DM is very flexible when it comes to character creation. I could show up next session with an entirely new character and he wouldn't bat an eye.

The other Rogue is going up to Rogue 3, then fully into Wizard. The 3rd player will change classes every session. He was a cleric the first session, then a warlock the second session. It wouldn't surprise me to see him as a wizard the 3rd session. The 4th player shows up to maybe 1/3 of all sessions.

I fail to see where I'm lagging behind in pure strength. In combat a little? Sure. My SA will lag behind a few dice to a pure rogue, but I'll offer to much more outside of combat. The other abilities a rogue gets are mostly crap excepting Reliable Talent at 11 and Stroke of Luck at 20. Those are far enough away that I'm not too worried about it.

I'll lag about 1 level behind on ability score increases (2 on the first one, 1 on all other ones), but gain an extra one at Rogue 10. So I won't really fall behind there.

I'm confused as to how stealth would work in combat. I duck behind a wall and hide as a bonus action (assuming Rogue 2). Next turn, I take part of my move action to walk out from behind the wall, get spotted before attacking thereby burning my stealth, and then attack without advantage. Right? Because as soon as they can see me: p.177 PHB states "You can't hide from a creature that can see you. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." So how am I supposed to use stealth to gain advantage on an enemy beyond round 1?

[Scirocco]

Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion are all good abilities, plus your archetype ability at level 6, so no Rogue levels are not terrible.

As for the whole Hiding in combat thing: it's mostly for Sniper rogues or for enemies really close by. Lightfoot Halflings and characters with the Skulker feat (sort of Hide in Plain Sight) will have a much easier time Hiding in melee as they can spring out of their easily created hiding places (unless your DM is a total **** that wishes to negate 1/3 of a class feature).

[Easy_Lee]

Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion are all good abilities, plus your archetype ability at level 6, so no Rogue levels are not terrible.

As for the whole Hiding in combat thing: it's mostly for Sniper rogues or for enemies really close by. Lightfoot Halflings and characters with the Skulker feat (sort of Hide in Plain Sight) will have a much easier time Hiding in melee as they can spring out of their easily created hiding places (unless your DM is a total **** that wishes to negate 1/3 of a class feature).

Note, if your DM is an ass he still has to give you SA if you've another ally within 5' of the target. Keep a familiar in your pocket and melee, and you force him to literally go against RAW to deny your SA. Technically, you can get SA on opportunity attacks as well due to SA working once per turn, not round (can trigger on another's turn).

If he still won't allow it, he probably hates rogues or hates you. Best to find another group. Better yet, reroll a warlock 2 / sorcerer X and destroy his campaign.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I'm confused as to how stealth would work in combat. I duck behind a wall and hide as a bonus action (assuming Rogue 2). Next turn, I take part of my move action to walk out from behind the wall, get spotted before attacking thereby burning my stealth, and then attack without advantage. Right? Because as soon as they can see me: p.177 PHB states "You can't hide from a creature that can see you. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." So how am I supposed to use stealth to gain advantage on an enemy beyond round 1?

That rule is to block people who want to run 20 feet out of cover, sneak attack, go 20 feet back, and cunning action hide. since that's obviously dumb. You can't hide from a creature that can see you - that's why you need total cover in order to make a stealth roll. It's like running behind cover and then moving sneakily or with a certain amount of misdirection so people arn't expecting you to pop up where you do. If you fail your stealth roll it means you were bad at misdirection!

[Easy_Lee]

That rule is to block people who want to run 20 feet out of cover, sneak attack, go 20 feet back, and cunning action hide. since that's obviously dumb. You can't hide from a creature that can see you - that's why you need total cover in order to make a stealth roll. It's like running behind cover and then moving sneakily or with a certain amount of misdirection so people arn't expecting you to pop up where you do. If you fail your stealth roll it means you were bad at misdirection!

Can't see how rogues are supposed to hide in a plain, open room, unless they take shadow monk levels or something. For DMs who want to deny a rogue ever getting sneak attack, there's always the pocket familiar trick, or mounted rogue option, or halflings hiding in their friend's backpack.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Can't see how rogues are supposed to hide in a plain, open room, unless they take shadow monk levels or something. For DMs who want to deny a rogue ever getting sneak attack, there's always the pocket familiar trick, or mounted rogue option, or halflings hiding in their friend's backpack.

??? you need total cover, im not sure where plain open room enters into it.

[Easy_Lee]

??? you need total cover, im not sure where plain open room enters into it.

Sorry, should have said there will be circumstances where hiding is not an option, and some stingy DMs will rule to prevent its use in combat whenever they can. So IMO, it's best to rely on other maneuvers for SA.

[MadBear]

I fail to see where I'm lagging behind in pure strength. In combat a little? Sure. My SA will lag behind a few dice to a pure rogue, but I'll offer to much more outside of combat. The other abilities a rogue gets are mostly crap excepting Reliable Talent at 11 and Stroke of Luck at 20. Those are far enough away that I'm not too worried about it.

I'll lag about 1 level behind on ability score increases (2 on the first one, 1 on all other ones), but gain an extra one at Rogue 10. So I won't really fall behind there.

Just to be clear, when I say be careful of multiclassing, I mean that it can often be a trap.

If we take a trip down memory lane, there existed the Mystic Theurge. Now a Wizard 7/Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 10 was not a bad class. By that level, you were pretty darn powerful. What isn't fun is Wizard 3/ Cleric 3. Now in our current edition, things are better then they were in 3.x, but not always 100% so.

Let us take your friend who's playing the Rogue 3/Wizard X. At level 4, he'll know at best lvl 1 wizard spells that he can cast in a 2nd level slot (assuming he wen't arcane trickster). By level 5 he'll still only know lvl 1 spells when a wizard will have learned lvl 3 spells. That's not a good place to be in. In fact for the rest of his career he'll be 2 full spell levels behind in what he knows. Sure, he'll have some higher level slots, and a few good rogue tricks up his sleeve, but the build will suffer.

Now when we look at your rogue, I see a similar problem happening when multiclassing happens too much. Rogues, don't get extra attacks and rely almost solely on SA. 1 level dipping will not cost you anything in terms of SA at lvl 20, but it will cost you 3.5 damage at every other level leading up to 20 your entire career. Is that a bad trade? I don't know it's up to you. And it's not just SA. Every single feature that the rogue offers will be taken later for the feature the Cleric is giving you. Again, I'm not saying it's not worth it, but that you need to keep in mind that it is a true cost, that's easy to loose track of.

Heck, it's one reason I hate the Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18 build. yes at Lvl 20, it's a strictly better sorcerer, but it comes at the cost of being 1 lvl of spell-casting behind your entire career to be slightly better at blasting. It's not that it doesn't work (it can/does), it's that I see it tossed out as if there is no lost opportunity costs when you really do have to realize there is a cost to it.

As you level, you'll spend more sessions in-between leveling up. The more you multi-class there more sessions you play without getting real tangible benefits of a class to gain a usually mediocre gain in power, that sure at lvl 20 is totally worth it, but I'm not convinced is worth it at every level prior to 20.

anyways I hope that clears up the point I was attempting to make. Although I made have muddle it up more. :-/

[MaxWilson]

Heck, it's one reason I hate the Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18 build. yes at Lvl 20, it's a strictly better sorcerer, but it comes at the cost of being 1 lvl of spell-casting behind your entire career to be slightly better at blasting. It's not that it doesn't work (it can/does), it's that I see it tossed out as if there is no lost opportunity costs when you really do have to realize there is a cost to it.

How are you inferring whether someone is or is not cognizant of the opportunity cost? I'm curious because I've had people respond to me saying "Warlock 2 is tempting for a necromancer" by jumping on that statement to point out that it delays your high-level spells, as if I weren't aware of that already. (After all, if there weren't opportunity costs it wouldn't just be tempting, it would be the clearly best decision.)

When it comes specifically to Warlock/Sorcerer: RP is a separate issue, but from the standpoint of pure utility I would totally take that trade. At level 17 I will briefly regret being a Warlock 2/Sorcerer 15 instead of a Sorcerer 17 (because of no Wishing for Clone/Find Steed/Simulacrum/etc.), but from level 5 (Sorc 3/Warlock 2) to 16 and from levels 19-20 I will be nothing but happy about my Agonizing Eldritch Spears (or Repelling Blasts), free telepathy, and bonus 1st level spells. I may be less happy about my patron's demands, but that's the RP part. Not everybody who has the CHA to become a warlock should become one, it takes a certain kind of personality...

[Easy_Lee]

How are you inferring whether someone is or is not cognizant of the opportunity cost? I'm curious because I've had people respond to me saying "Warlock 2 is tempting for a necromancer" by jumping on that statement to point out that it delays your high-level spells, as if I weren't aware of that already. (After all, if there weren't opportunity costs it wouldn't just be tempting, it would be the clearly best decision.)

When it comes specifically to Warlock/Sorcerer: RP is a separate issue, but from the standpoint of pure utility I would totally take that trade. At level 17 I will briefly regret being a Warlock 2/Sorcerer 15 instead of a Sorcerer 17 (because of no Wishing for Clone/Find Steed/Simulacrum/etc.), but from level 5 (Sorc 3/Warlock 2) to 16 and from levels 19-20 I will be nothing but happy about my Agonizing Eldritch Spears (or Repelling Blasts), free telepathy, and bonus 1st level spells. I may be less happy about my patron's demands, but that's the RP part. Not everybody who has the CHA to become a warlock should become one, it takes a certain kind of personality...

And only certain DMs will even try to abuse the pact parts of it anyway. For the warlock/sorcerer option, since you take so little warlock, it'd be easy to say something like "I thought the power came from my pact, but I quickly learned the power actually came from my ancient draconic roots." Doesn't make sense why you still have eldritch blast, but whatever, it could pass.

[MaxWilson]

And only certain DMs will even try to abuse the pact parts of it anyway. For the warlock/sorcerer option, since you take so little warlock, it'd be easy to say something like "I thought the power came from my pact, but I quickly learned the power actually came from my ancient draconic roots." Doesn't make sense why you still have eldritch blast, but whatever, it could pass.

That explanation wouldn't sit right with me, but as far as the mechanics go: I'm AFB, but I believe in D&D 5E, all magic is powered by the Weave no matter who you learned it from, which is why wizards can dispel spells granted by Thor and bards can steal and cast Eldritch Blast. The warlock fluff has it that the most common patron-warlock relationship is akin to "master-apprentice" relationships, so presumably your patron is (normally) teaching you how to manipulate the Weave as opposed to supplying the power directly. Eldritch Invocations are fluffed as arcane secrets that you learn, so they're just more of the same, akin to spellcasting feats.

Arguably, your Pact boon and perhaps your Pact Magic spell slots should evaporate if you displease your patron, but that wouldn't apply to your Eldritch Invocations as I understand the fluff. However, you have to be a pretty seriously evil dude to make a deal with Mab or Cthulhu in the first place, which is why Warlock dipping isn't for everyone. IMHO. YMMV.

[JoeJ]

Note, if your DM is an ass he still has to give you SA if you've another ally within 5' of the target. Keep a familiar in your pocket and melee, and you force him to literally go against RAW to deny your SA. Technically, you can get SA on opportunity attacks as well due to SA working once per turn, not round (can trigger on another's turn).

If he still won't allow it, he probably hates rogues or hates you. Best to find another group. Better yet, reroll a warlock 2 / sorcerer X and destroy his campaign.

I doubt that having a familiar hiding in your pocket is going to work with most DMs. It certainly wouldn't with me. If the familiar is running or flying around the bad guy and possibly distracting them, that's one thing, but not completely hidden inside your pocket.

[Easy_Lee]

I doubt that having a familiar hiding in your pocket is going to work with most DMs. It certainly wouldn't with me. If the familiar is running or flying around the bad guy and possibly distracting them, that's one thing, but not completely hidden inside your pocket.

Naw, you keep it inside your pocket till it's your turn, then let it jump out as a distraction. No opportunity attacks because it never leaves reach and is hidden while you move.

[tcrudisi]

Naw, you keep it inside your pocket till it's your turn, then let it jump out as a distraction. No opportunity attacks because it never leaves reach and is hidden while you move.

The DM doesn't penalize our SA any. I get it frequently enough when the Barbarian player is around. Not quite as often when he's not.

The problem is getting advantage. I've gotten to play 3 sessions now. In those 3 sessions we have done 7 combats. In all of those combats, I have had advantage once: the time that I used my inspiration. Despite this being a mostly RP game, I've not gotten my inspiration back. This is why I want the familiar; getting to roll twice for every attack (or at least negating disadvantage) is a bigger boost than any level 20 capstone could give me and it works from the moment I pick it up.

I'm aware of the trap nature of MC'ing too often. I rarely/never MC'ed in 3.5, though this is a different beast. Skills are very important in this campaign or I wouldn't be prioritizing them so much. The other players can and will focus on combat, making me less necessary in that aspect. As long as I'm pulling enough weight so that I'm not weighing down the party -- so a few levels of Rogue will bring in the SA damage to do that. What I really need is advice: How can I go about improving my combat capability with the knowledge that skills are going to take top priority? Is it possible for me to get a quick boost by MCing even further? lol. Or should I just go straight Rogue after getting 3 or 4 levels in Bard? Or should I just stick with Bard? Though that seems ... silly. I've read that Bards are the worst damage-dealers in the game. I feel like I'd do more damage by going back to Rogue after that, but I'm not sure.

[JoeJ]

Naw, you keep it inside your pocket till it's your turn, then let it jump out as a distraction. No opportunity attacks because it never leaves reach and is hidden while you move.

If it's your familiar it has its own turn; it doesn't act on yours.

[Yagyujubei]

didn't read other posts bust just wanted to share my similar build.

Also a half elf rogue with Charlatan (con man flavor: deception, investigation)

-Rolls aside, I started with Perception, Insight, Deception, Investigation, Persuasion, Stealth, Acrobatics, and Sleight of hand.

lvl plan

1. rogue - Sneak attack(1d6), Thieves cant, Expertise: Sleight of hand/Perception
2. cleric - Knowledge, Expertise: Arcana/History, medium armor/shield proficiency
3. rogue - cunning action
4. rogue - sneak attack 2d6, Arcane Trickster: Mage Hand Legerdemain
5. rogue - Medium Armor Master (due to stats, I'll realistically only get to 18DEX)
6. rogue - sneak attack 3d6, Uncanny dodge
7. rogue - Expertise: Stealth, Thieves tools
8. rogue - sneak attack 4d6, Evasion
9. rogue - Dex+2

so now rogue is pretty much fully online, and arcane trickster is giving you tons of magical tricks to aid you while fighting and it's time to pick up the bard splash

10. bard - bardic inspiration, Athletics
11. bard - JooT, SoR
12. bard - College of Lore: Nature, Religion, Survival, Expertise: Investigation, Deception
13. bard - couple options here: crossbow exp. or dual wielder, dungeon delver, observant(INT), or INT+2

then it's just rogue all the rest of the way letting you pick up 2 more stat bumps, sneak attack 8d6, blindsense/slippery mind, reliable talent, and mystical ambush/versatile trickster. All the while getting 3 total spell slots more than a pure 20 arcane trickster (1 4th from MC caster, and 2 1st from cleric domain)

building this way lets you rock Half plate and a dual wielder for 19 AC which is more than respectable as well without incurring any penalties.

you could also take the 4 bard levels starting at level 6 if you REALLY wanted to rush your max skill proficiency but I think this curve is much more survivable and well rounded.

[Easy_Lee]

If it's your familiar it has its own turn; it doesn't act on yours.

Doesn't matter. You don't have to share the same turn to use the help action. This is exactly what the help action entails. Or, if you really want to, you can just have it hold its "do that" action until the rogue's next turn.

Seriously, making two characters act at the same time is as basic as it gets.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The problem is getting advantage. I've gotten to play 3 sessions now. In those 3 sessions we have done 7 combats. In all of those combats, I have had advantage once: the time that I used my inspiration. Despite this being a mostly RP game, I've not gotten my inspiration back. This is why I want the familiar; getting to roll twice for every attack (or at least negating disadvantage) is a bigger boost than any level 20 capstone could give me and it works from the moment I pick it up.

just to be clear, since we started talking about sneak attack: attacking from hidden (as in move behind cover, Cunning Action Hide) gives you advantage

[JoeJ]

Doesn't matter. You don't have to share the same turn to use the help action. This is exactly what the help action entails. Or, if you really want to, you can just have it hold its "do that" action until the rogue's next turn.

Seriously, making two characters act at the same time is as basic as it gets.

Helping is not a problem. That's one of the things a familiar is good for. You just can't have the familiar jump out of your pocket, help, and then jump back into your pocket all on your turn. If it's able to help you it has to be out where it can be attacked (unlikely unless there just isn't any better use of the monster's action) or affected by AoE spells.

[tcrudisi]

just to be clear, since we started talking about sneak attack: attacking from hidden (as in move behind cover, Cunning Action Hide) gives you advantage

Right - I get that. My problem is that, per RAW, it seems like that is impossible to do once combat begins. The rules on Stealth are very ambiguous beyond, "You can't hide from a creature that can see you. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." I must be missing something on Stealth because this basically says that the moment you step out of total cover, your Stealth is busted and you won't be getting Advantage. Even the rules for 3/4 cover says that "about 3/4 of the target is covered by an obstacle." Which means that you can see 1/4 of it. Ergo, you can't hide from a creature that can see you, so even 3/4 cover isn't adequate. If 3/4 cover isn't adequate, then it would take total cover to receive advantage on the attack roll. But if you've got total cover, how are you going to attack the target?

You can see where this is confusing the crap out of me. It feels like Stealth is worthless inside combat without having an Invisibility or darkness spell of some kind.

[JoeJ]

Right - I get that. My problem is that, per RAW, it seems like that is impossible to do once combat begins. The rules on Stealth are very ambiguous beyond, "You can't hide from a creature that can see you. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." I must be missing something on Stealth because this basically says that the moment you step out of total cover, your Stealth is busted and you won't be getting Advantage. Even the rules for 3/4 cover says that "about 3/4 of the target is covered by an obstacle." Which means that you can see 1/4 of it. Ergo, you can't hide from a creature that can see you, so even 3/4 cover isn't adequate. If 3/4 cover isn't adequate, then it would take total cover to receive advantage on the attack roll. But if you've got total cover, how are you going to attack the target?

You can see where this is confusing the crap out of me. It feels like Stealth is worthless inside combat without having an Invisibility or darkness spell of some kind.

Sneaking up on somebody to attack at melee range is very hard, as it should be. Use a ranged weapon instead. Get the party spellcasters to help too, with Fog Cloud, Darkness, or an illusion you can hide behind. And take the Skulker feat as early as you possibly can, because that will help out a lot.

Also, talk to the DM. There may be something specific to your table that will help out, or it could be that a rogue is not the best character for this campaign.

[Yagyujubei]

just to be clear, since we started talking about sneak attack: attacking from hidden (as in move behind cover, Cunning Action Hide) gives you advantage

also to be clear, you don't need advantage to be able to sneak attack. you simply need an ally within attacking range of the enemy, or the enemy needs to be incapacitated (stunned, paralyzed, asleep, ensnared, grappled, etc.)

if your DM isn't letting you sneak attack when an ally is in attacking range he's straight up playing wrong, and you should tell him as much. this works for melee and ranged sneak attacks alike, if he disagrees tell him to read the PHB for rogues.

also, get an owl. flyby allows the owl to help action you every turn from safety, and keeping it from dying is as simple as strapping a shield loosely to your back, and having the owl start and end under the shield each turn. now you have at will advantage that is RAW so he cant stop it.

[Scirocco]

Don't forget that the owl has 120 ft darkvision, which you can borrow as an action. Long dark hallway? No problem.

[Yagyujubei]

i think it's low light rather than dark, but it also has advantage on perception checks so sweet deals all around for the owl. oh and it will allow you to deliver touch attack from range if you go arcane trickster which is also really useful.

[Scirocco]

It's darkvision, right there in the entry. I don't think low-light vision exists in 5th?

[JoeJ]

also to be clear, you don't need advantage to be able to sneak attack. you simply need an ally within attacking range of the enemy, or the enemy needs to be incapacitated (stunned, paralyzed, asleep, ensnared, grappled, etc.)

if your DM isn't letting you sneak attack when an ally is in attacking range he's straight up playing wrong, and you should tell him as much. this works for melee and ranged sneak attacks alike, if he disagrees tell him to read the PHB for rogues.

also, get an owl. flyby allows the owl to help action you every turn from safety, and keeping it from dying is as simple as strapping a shield loosely to your back, and having the owl start and end under the shield each turn. now you have at will advantage that is RAW so he cant stop it.

If it both starts and ends it's turn under the shield how can it help on your turn? That's no different from Brak the Barbarian running up to the monster and immediately running away. If he's not in place while you're attacking then you don't gain advantage from his having been there at some point in the past.

Also, taking an antagonistic attitude toward the DM is not likely to improve the game for either of you. It's not a competition, and if it were the DM would automatically win because, without exception, the DM's rulings trump RAW.

[Yagyujubei]

If it both starts and ends it's turn under the shield how can it help on your turn? That's no different from Brak the Barbarian running up to the monster and immediately running away. If he's not in place while you're attacking then you don't gain advantage from his having been there at some point in the past.

Also, taking an antagonistic attitude toward the DM is not likely to improve the game for either of you. It's not a competition, and if it were the DM would automatically win because, without exception, the DM's rulings trump RAW.



1. RAW a help action grants advantage until the start of the person who used it's next turn, so owl swoop in > help action > swoop out > you attack with advantage.

2. if your DM doesn't rule that way? ok, owl holds action to do everything I said in point 1 whenever I make my attack during the turn. this works no matter how you slice it, if a DM doesn't allow it he's literally ignoring the core mechanics of combat in DnD, and why would anyone play with a bad DM that gimped his players by not following the rules of the game? if a DM is gonna pull crap like that they better make it plainly clear that they will before characters are even rolled or they're a failure.

[Easy_Lee]

Helping is not a problem. That's one of the things a familiar is good for. You just can't have the familiar jump out of your pocket, help, and then jump back into your pocket all on your turn.

"Help" is just a word. What do you imagine the familiar is doing when it "helps" you hit someone? The "jump out and distract" option is how I imagine it going down.


If it's able to help you it has to be out where it can be attacked (unlikely unless there just isn't any better use of the monster's action) or affected by AoE spells.

You literally just made every bit of that up. Absolutely nothing in the text states you have to have line of sight to either the creature you're helping nor the target you're helping them hit. You just have to be within 5'. Hopping out of the pocket as a distraction is a completely legitimate way it could happen.

And even if something does decide to attack a small familiar while on your person, we have precedent via the Mounted Combatant feat that you could conceivably take the attack for your familiar. Unlike with mounted combatant, where you're somehow protecting a mount's entire body without even using your reaction, you'd just be moving your arm in the way of your bat or snake or whatever. Very reasonable.

[Yagyujubei]

people seem to forget the an entire round constitutes 6 seconds of time, even when things happen out of turn they're basically happening simultaneously, so your owl goes two turns before you? thats like 1 second of lag. she swoops by claws raking at the dudes face, covers his face for one second, and you slip in with the knife. it makes perfect sense...

[JoeJ]

"Help" is just a word. What do you imagine the familiar is doing when it "helps" you hit someone? The "jump out and distract" option is how I imagine it going down.



You literally just made every bit of that up. Absolutely nothing in the text states you have to have line of sight to either the creature you're helping nor the target you're helping them hit. You just have to be within 5'. Hopping out of the pocket as a distraction is a completely legitimate way it could happen.

And even if something does decide to attack a small familiar while on your person, we have precedent via the Mounted Combatant feat that you could conceivably take the attack for your familiar. Unlike with mounted combatant, where you're somehow protecting a mount's entire body without even using your reaction, you'd just be moving your arm in the way of your bat or snake or whatever. Very reasonable.

Nothing in the text says it has to be alive either, so I guess you can use the bones of one of your ancestors to gain advantage?

Having a familiar help you gain advantage is perfectly fine, as I already stated. Having it take both its move and its action in the middle of your turn so that it can't be hit is not. Nor is having it both Help and Hide (which is what it's doing when it goes back into your pocket, or under your shield) on the same turn unless some circumstance lets it take a bonus action. The bottom line is that, at least when I'm running the game, you don't get a no-fail guaranteed advantage at no cost because it's cheesy, as well as unfair to the other players. If your DM lets you get away with it, go for it.

To the OP, is there someone in your party who can cast Silent Image? That would give you something to hide behind that the bad guy can't see through unless they either physically interact with it, or use their action and make a successful Investigation check.

[Easy_Lee]

Nothing in the text says it has to be alive either, so I guess you can use the bones of one of your ancestors to gain advantage?

Having a familiar help you gain advantage is perfectly fine, as I already stated. Having it take both its move and its action in the middle of your turn so that it can't be hit is not. Nor is having it both Help and Hide (which is what it's doing when it goes back into your pocket, or under your shield) on the same turn unless some circumstance lets it take a bonus action. The bottom line is that, at least when I'm running the game, you don't get a no-fail guaranteed advantage at no cost because it's cheesy, as well as unfair to the other players. If your DM lets you get away with it, go for it.

To the OP, is there someone in your party who can cast Silent Image? That would give you something to hide behind that the bad guy can't see through unless they either physically interact with it, or use their action and make a successful Investigation check.

A couple of things:

If it's still within the same 5' square, it did not move according to RAW
Help is basically the same thing as holding an action. You can hold an action to do something specific, such as what I described.
You are not the DM of this thread. If you want to say why something doesn't work, state the official rule that shows why. Saying "I would rule X" doesn't help anyone because, again, you are not the DM of this thread.

[Yagyujubei]

Nothing in the text says it has to be alive either, so I guess you can use the bones of one of your ancestors to gain advantage?

Having a familiar help you gain advantage is perfectly fine, as I already stated. Having it take both its move and its action in the middle of your turn so that it can't be hit is not. Nor is having it both Help and Hide (which is what it's doing when it goes back into your pocket, or under your shield) on the same turn unless some circumstance lets it take a bonus action. The bottom line is that, at least when I'm running the game, you don't get a no-fail guaranteed advantage at no cost because it's cheesy, as well as unfair to the other players. If your DM lets you get away with it, go for it.

To the OP, is there someone in your party who can cast Silent Image? That would give you something to hide behind that the bad guy can't see through unless they either physically interact with it, or use their action and make a successful Investigation check.

your game sounds un-fun. a Good DM doesn't tell players they can't do the things they want to do. If a good DM thinks a technique is too cheesy or strong they would use the game mechanics to counter it. in this example there's nothing stopping you from having your NPC that's being targeted by familiar cheese to ready THEIR action, and murder the hell out of the familiar the second it comes into range. Taking RP into account it's likely that the familiar surprise would work the first time, and after the NPC would prepare a counter for it.

this way the PERFECTLY RAW LEGAL technique gets some mileage, but the DM can control just how much. use your imagination please, dont just be like "too stronk no in game! i DM my word law"

[JoeJ]

this way the PERFECTLY RAW LEGAL technique gets some mileage, but the DM can control just how much. use your imagination please, dont just be like "too stronk no in game! i DM my word law"

5e is not 3.5 or Pathfinder. PERFECTLY RAW LEGAL is not a convincing argument for something that comes across as cheesy and a violation of RAI.

However, this argument no longer has anything to do with the topic of the thread, so I'll bow out.

[tcrudisi]

To the OP, is there someone in your party who can cast Silent Image? That would give you something to hide behind that the bad guy can't see through unless they either physically interact with it, or use their action and make a successful Investigation check.

Unfortunately, no. We currently have: Barbarian, Rogue, 1 player who will not play the same character more than twice before trying something new, and myself. So I like the idea - but it would have to be me doing it.

Side note: The player who won't play the same character? He was a Cleric our first session, a Warlock our second session, a Bard our third session, and he's talking about being a Sorc for our fourth session. The only guarantee with him is that he'll never play a melee character.

[JoeJ]

Unfortunately, no. We currently have: Barbarian, Rogue, 1 player who will not play the same character more than twice before trying something new, and myself. So I like the idea - but it would have to be me doing it.

Side note: The player who won't play the same character? He was a Cleric our first session, a Warlock our second session, a Bard our third session, and he's talking about being a Sorc for our fourth session. The only guarantee with him is that he'll never play a melee character.

You can stay with Rogue for another couple of levels and take the Arcane Trickster archetype. That will let you cast Silent Image yourself. Or you can go Assassin and automatically have advantage on the first round of combat against anybody who hasn't acted yet. If having a reliable sneak attack is at all important you should at least go to Rogue 2 and get Cunning Action. Plus, as a cleric you can use Guiding Bolt to set up a sneak attack.

Thinking outside the box a little, you can also use questions to the DM to help establish an environment with hiding places. For example, if you're in an alley you could ask, "are there are empty boxes or piles of trash big enough to hide behind?" In the wilderness you can ask if there's a convenient tree or bush. Gaining advantage in 5e is often situational, and the DM might simply not have thought about some of the details of the environment until you ask for them. Open ended questions are less useful here; ask for something specific and you're much more likely to get it.

I would also recommend asking between games about what your character can do in the game to gain Inspiration.

[Person_Man]

I would personally go with strait Lore Bard. Expertise, Inspiration, Pass without Trace (+10 Stealth), and Enhance Ability will allow your party to pass whatever it needs.