How to stop my players' metagaming from ruining the game

[hobbitkniver]

I have been the DM for my friends who were new to DnD many times without issue, but I recently began to DM for people who know the rules quite well. They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want. My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.

[Demidos]

Show them this post (or maybe a slightly kinder rant), then ask them what they want?

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?

Edit: Alternately, reskin monsters so as to make them unrecognizable -- e.g., use a displacer beast's statblock for the next guy they fight, but make him look humanoid so they don't know exactly what he can do. If they can't know what a monster's stats will be, perhaps they'll stop trying to metagame their way through it.

[Kesnit]

It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items.

Point out that selling price is 50% market value.


It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them.

I had a player who did that, so I reskinned everything. Orcs were green army men. An ooze was Jell-o. A balor became Cthulhu.


complain about too much combat,

What are their complaints (other than it is "too hard")?


start texting if I spend time on story,

Ban phones/iPads/laptops from the table.


and have no useful skill ranks between them.

Give them skill challenges. :smallbiggrin:

[Blackhawk748]

Wow, your players seem a tad bitchy. I had PCs like this once, needless to say i no longer DM for them. Its hard enough DMing when the players LIKE what your doing, when they complain about everything you just stop caring.

[nedz]

Sounds like a play-style mismatch.

Maybe they like kick-in-the-door style gaming ? At least that's what it sounds like from your description. You could try something old-school like the Tomb of Horrors — only don't let on or someone is likely to read the module :smallannoyed:

You could run home-brew monsters — just re skinning a stat block is the easy bake method here.

Run an Aboleth, or anything which uses Illusions, so that they don't know what they are up against — until it's too late.

[hobbitkniver]

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?
I'm not sure why, but they really don't like this idea. I think they are probably afraid of being responsible for such a tough crowd.



What are their complaints (other than it is "too hard")?


It's mostly the frequency of combat, but they don't actually try to participate in any other aspects of the game.

Wow, your players seem a tad bitchy. I had PCs like this once, needless to say i no longer DM for them. Its hard enough DMing when the players LIKE what your doing, when they complain about everything you just stop caring.
This is absolutely where I'm headed. Writing for sessions has become such a chore.

[Arbane]

Play something else? Like a really rules-light game like Fate or Risus.

or Paranoia...where knowing the rules is treason.

[Roncorps]

I don't think that will help you, but I always listen to what my players say about the rules and etc. but I make a point about "Eh, I'm the king here so last word is mine". They are happy with it, we talk about rules frequently and sometimes, it"s change my view of it.

So, from your story, it's more because they are a bunch of "I-wanna-have-it-all-my-way" than cooperative players.

[Petrocorus]

They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

Emphasis mine.
You should remember them that you're the DM. You make the rules. The books explicitly say the DM has the right to do anything and everything and you can houserule whatever you want and change whatever stat of whatever monsters, NPC, items, etc.
If they are not fine with that, then they should read the PHB and the DMG again.



They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want.


They don't want roleplay, they don't want combats, they don't want story, they don't have skills so they don't want non-combat challenge, apparently. So basically they want nothing? Do they want mystery / investigation style game? Have they told you anything about what they want?


My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.
Sadly, my first thought was to tell you to find other players. Not very constructive, i know.
I think you should ask them what kind of game they want. You won't solve anything without that.

[Honest Tiefling]

Remember, you can lead a dragon to royalty, but you cannot make it eat them. Your players just seem uninterested in story. Don't take it personally, just some people wanna have fun in that way.

I would comment on what I see as bad manners, but I say tackle that issue first. Tell them how you wish to DM ( presumably, with story, in-character knowledge, etc.) and see if a comprimise can be reached. Ask them what they like in a game. And I don't mean this rudely, but perhaps a multiplayer video game or a more combat focused system would appeal to them.

The reason I say tackle that issue first is that, hopefully, if they see you want a more RD centric game they'll stop metagaming. They might not see an issue if they think of it as a fun fantasy miniatures war game.

Sadly, some people just have incompatible desires.

[Tragak]

"Metagaming" isn't the problem here.

If you don't talk to your players out-of-game (what kind of game does everybody want to play, can everybody help each other [NOT everybody put the whole burden on you, everybody help each other] to get what everybody else wants out of the same game), then in-game band-aids (redesigning items, monsters, encounters) are not going to fix anything.

[Troacctid]

Maybe your players would be happier with a different system.

[Galen]

One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them.This is a line that cannot be crossed. Either he recants his accusations entirely, or you will no longer DM for him. There can be no middle ground. If the trust relationship between player and DM is this much broken, one of them must walk.

[emeraldstreak]

I have been the DM for my friends who were new to DnD many times without issue, but I recently began to DM for people who know the rules quite well. They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want. My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.

Frankly, you should throw the towel on this group and let someone else DM or leave it altogether.

That being said, if you really want to continue I suggest you move your setting/campaign to a New World exploration one; they'll be the first explorers. No infrastructure to rely on, no NPCs economy, no nothing. Everything around is unexplored. And so on.

[Petrocorus]

Maybe your players would be happier with a different system.

If that was not for the "too many combats" thing, i would have advised Dungeonquest.

[GreyBlack]

I have been the DM for my friends who were new to DnD many times without issue, but I recently began to DM for people who know the rules quite well. They constantly complain any time I deviate from the rules and constantly use their knowledge of the game in inappropriate ways. It has become problematic as they won't accept the prices that npcs pay for items and instead insist they should get 100% book price when selling all magic items. Any time I create an item from scratch, they try to estimate the price based on similarities to items from books. It has gotten to the point where they will challenge me on the monster's attack modifiers, AC, and other abilities. One player seems to memorize the stats of monsters in is free time and convinces the other players that I am cheating them. They whine about the difficulty even though they crush every encounter and have never been even remotely in danger.

They refuse to roleplay, complain about too much combat, start texting if I spend time on story, and have no useful skill ranks between them. I just can't figure out what they want. My biggest problem as a DM is that I'm too easy on the players, so it's pretty shocking to me that there's so much complaining about difficulty. I have never had so much issue with people not accepting the numbers I give for items, monsters, ect.

Is there any way to give them what they want or do they just want to complain about something? I suspect the latter may be the case because I got complaints for making them split 200 gold between four people and it doesn't get easier than that. Either way, I'm sure the playground has some useful or at least interesting thoughts on the issue of metagaming and players that think they know the world (custom setting) better than the DM.

Please refer your players to Dungeon Master's Guide pg. 6, section: Adjucating.



When everyone gathers around the table, you're in charge. That doesn't mean you can tell people what to do outside the boundaries of the game, but it does mean that you're the final arbiter of rules within a game.

If they cannot accept this utter indictment, then I suggest telling them this:

http://youtu.be/M5QGkOGZubQ

[atemu1234]

I mostly DM for new players, so I can't really help with the bit about extreme knowledge of the game.

But I do ban cellphones; I only allow things like Ipads if they have PDFs of D&D stuff on it. I use the caller method, where all the group's actions are given to one of the players and that player tells me.

If you have a problem with a player or two, tell them what they're doing wrong. Tell them you're the DM, point out Rule 0, show it to the entire group to get your point across. Don't be mean, but tell them that quite frankly they need to pay attention to story and not complain about odd monsters. I homebrew enough of my stuff and add class levels to most monsters so the PCs rarely know what's coming. I don't know if this works here, but it's the closest I can advise.

[Tohsaka Rin]

They won't roleplay, and they don't like combat. Story puts them to sleep.

....

WHAT.

That's 90% of the game (hyperbole, I know, but still) gone.

Sit them down, and ASK them WHAT they want out of the game. DO NOT let them avoid the question. DO NOT start the session until you get an answer. Don't be rude, don't raise your voice unless they repeatedly talk over you. Just make your position clear and firm. Don't give them wiggle-room to worm out of this.

There's literally nothing to DO otherwise in the game. If they either repeatedly refuse, or just give vague answers, tell them that until they can actually tell you what there is in the game for them to do that interests THEM, DnD is cancelled.

Then leave the table.

Can't play sports if nobody will take the field. Game called on account of zero sportsmanship.

[137beth]

They won't roleplay, and they don't like combat. Story puts them to sleep.

....

WHAT.

That's 90% of the game (hyperbole, I know, but still) gone.

Sit them down, and ASK them WHAT they want out of the game. DO NOT let them avoid the question. DO NOT start the session until you get an answer. Don't be rude, don't raise your voice unless they repeatedly talk over you. Just make your position clear and firm. Don't give them wiggle-room to worm out of this.

There's literally nothing to DO otherwise in the game. If they either repeatedly refuse, or just give vague answers, tell them that until they can actually tell you what there is in the game for them to do that interests THEM, DnD is cancelled.

Then leave the table.

Can't play sports if nobody will take the field. Game called on account of zero sportsmanship.
Emphasis mine.
I don't even think that that was a hyperbole. Certainly as far as what the rules are about it is not. Maybe you could get a rules-heavy 3.5 game with minimal combat by using almost exclusively rules from the DMGII, Stronghold builder's guide (3.0), a couple sections of complete scoundrel, and....maybe some 3rd party stuff (101 additional skill uses? Ultimate campaign?) But even a majority of CScoundrel is focused on combat.
If the players dislike combat, and don't want to roleplay, and don't like the story...it's going to be hard to enjoy 3.5.

[Petrocorus]

Emphasis mine.
I don't even think that that was a hyperbole. Certainly as far as what the rules are about it is not. Maybe you could get a rules-heavy 3.5 game with minimal combat by using almost exclusively rules from the DMGII, Stronghold builder's guide (3.0), a couple sections of complete scoundrel, and....maybe some 3rd party stuff (101 additional skill uses? Ultimate campaign?) But even a majority of CScoundrel is focused on combat.

And what is not focused on combat is about solving OOC challenges with skills, deductions and roleplay. That they don't like either.



If the players dislike combat, and don't want to roleplay, and don't like the story...it's going to be hard to enjoy 3.5.

Indeed, given that there almost nothing left then.

[Psyren]

They won't roleplay, and they don't like combat. Story puts them to sleep.

....

WHAT.

That's 90% of the game (hyperbole, I know, but still) gone.

Sit them down, and ASK them WHAT they want out of the game. DO NOT let them avoid the question. DO NOT start the session until you get an answer. Don't be rude, don't raise your voice unless they repeatedly talk over you. Just make your position clear and firm. Don't give them wiggle-room to worm out of this.

There's literally nothing to DO otherwise in the game. If they either repeatedly refuse, or just give vague answers, tell them that until they can actually tell you what there is in the game for them to do that interests THEM, DnD is cancelled.

Then leave the table.

Can't play sports if nobody will take the field. Game called on account of zero sportsmanship.

This. You're really at an impasse until you know, clearly, what they want.

[Arcanist]

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?

This is the best thing to do. Ask them to DM for a few games or set up a DM rotation and have everyone take control of the story for a moment. During these times, take the time to note the kinds of stories that they run and when you feel you have enough information, run a story that appeals to them.

Setting up rules like "no phones" or "no OOG talking" is unnecessary, but if you feel they might help instead of hurt your game, by all means impose them. Good luck and enjoy your game.

[Yahzi]

What they want is to not get away with sh*t. But you can't ask them this, because they don't know.

What they really want is to be scared for their character's lives, engaged with their character's fates, concerned about their character's NPC friends. They want the world to be believable and dangerous so that when they do win, it's rewarding.

The way I would deal with a group like this would be a sandbox. First, reduce the rules down to a subset you feel comfortable with. Ban a few spells if you want, or even classes. During play, if they correct you, just make a note of it for next time - the rules don't really matter as long as they don't change. Create a world instead of a plot (although you can put a few plots in the world if you want, but remember, the plot is for them to survive and prosper, nobody cares about whatever drama your NPCs have going on). Don't panic - there are good guides on sandbox worlds and all you need at the start is one town and one dungeon. Start them out at 1st level. Roll all dice in the open. Above all enforce the rule of no take-backs: once a result has been announced, that's it. You tell them the AC, they roll, if they say they missed then they missed. Full stop. If they forgot a bonus then fine they can use it next time. And then... let them die. Over and over again, until they redefine the game as "surviving a single night."

Once they get used to the idea that 1st level characters die at the drop of a dice, they'll start thinking about what they want to do rather than just "kick door fight." When they come up with creative solutions (flood the dungeon to kill the monsters) let them work once, but then adjust the next encounter so it doesn't (the goblins on the 2nd level opened a drain so their level didn't get flooded).

They'll either quit on you because of the iron discipline, or they'll rediscover why they liked RPGs in the first place. Either way is a win for you.

[Melcar]

Show them this post (or maybe a slightly kinder rant), then ask them what they want?

Alternately, maybe let one of them DM?

Edit: Alternately, reskin monsters so as to make them unrecognizable -- e.g., use a displacer beast's statblock for the next guy they fight, but make him look humanoid so they don't know exactly what he can do. If they can't know what a monster's stats will be, perhaps they'll stop trying to metagame their way through it.

I like this idea of mixing up the stats blocks...

What I would do was tell them your feeliings and concern. Tell them that you are not there for them to have fun, your are all gathered so ALL of you can have fun, and the way the DM has fun is delivering interesting stories and challenges. And tell them that you do not like their meta-gaming, and that it is your prerogative as a DM to determine everything in the campain and that you do not what to hear any crap about it. If they do not respond well to this, then ask them what they would like, and see if its something that can be combined with your wishes. If not, then I guess there is not much to do.

Show them this post if all else fails.

[Chester]

What surprises me the most about this is the fact that "veteran players" (or whatever you'd call them) can't separate player knowledge from character knowledge (they talk openly about monster stats).

I had a somewhat noob player in our campaign who would look up the stats of every monster we fought. A simple "hey man, that's kind of not cool" was all it took to stop that. Seems like that won't work with this group, though.

We use Google Hangout with the Roll20 app. You're not having fun with this group; online options provide you with a wider outlet to find players who appreciate the game.

Move on.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Players that memorize a game's rules usually want that skill of theirs to matter.
In short, when you got munchkins, you can't satisfy them with easy combat or with homebrewed combat because their munchkinry doesn't come into play. Much like you need a good story to satisfy roleplayers, you need hard, by-the-rules encounters to satisfy munchkins.

2) Players that are rules-focused dislike it immensely when the rules change.
This doesn't apply only to DnD. Lots of card game players, board game players and chess players have specific sets of rules they prefer to play in, and many of them won't even discuss the idea of rules-changes. It might even happen in athletics, on occasion.

3) Players with the above issues often don't realize that they have them.
They either don't see something wrong with this or can't express what is wrong with the game, exactly. They'll often get annoyed and bitchy without realizing why the game doesn't satisfy them.




Solutions:

A) Find another DM. Not everyone can satisfy players of this type and still enjoy DMing.

B) Use rules-exact, hard, non-straightforward combat. Play to their strengths and they'll love you for it. For example, sic them a few half-black dragon firetrolls. In order to win, they'll have to realize normal damage is useless (using in-game or metagame skills) then find a way to overcome the issue. Or sic them a succubus disguised as a damsel in distress, or flirty barmaid or quest-giver that uses her social bonuses plus special abilities to defeat them - unless they find her out first.

C) Use a plot hook that will draw in munchkins. High-stealth thief to defeat their low perception and steal a couple of their magic items while they sleep will immediately cause outrage in such a group - especially if you do it by-the-rules instead of fiat, AND write down the relevant rolls to prove it weren't by fiat. See how they immediately hunt the thief for stealing from them and incidentally follow the plot.

[Astralia123]

I never GMed such a tough group, but I have been on the complaining side for numerous times.

It is the case where PCs are not satisfied, but are possibly unaware on what aspects they are unsatisfied. You are possibly not doing well enough, and some of the PCs (problematic type) may wish to gain extra advantage by complaining or arguing the rules, or they may just wish to show how they are good at the rules.

You may wish to, say, change to some more exciting plot to interest them. They already show a lot of signs of uninterested.
And about problematic PCs, I tend to point out directly that some their expectations are not realistic, or some behaviours are inappropriate. Complaining and unnecessary rule arguing are on the list. I'm not totally against rules arguing, but I am usually the winner.
As advice to GMs who are not that of a lawyer type, I would say, I'm-the-boss type of claim doesn't quite impress the rules lawyers, but you should make a point on "common sense/fun first".

[Kelb_Panthera]

Swat them with a steel folding chair and say "No! Bad players! Quit your whining!" Make sure to emphasize each of those exclamation points with another swat.

What? ..... It's no less reasonable than they're being.

Seriously though, you need to be firm with them. Demand that they stop whining about what you're doing wrong, you heard them the first X times, and tell you what they -do- want.

Then inform them, if you're so inclined, that the rules are what -you- say they are and if the book disagrees then -it- is wrong. If they can't deal with that, they're free to walk away or run the game themselves.

I prefer to cleave pretty close to RAW, myself, but the rules aren't the important thing here. The rules -have- to take a back seat to the DM's authority over the game. If they want you to take on the responsibility of building a world, populating it, and planning plots and quests then they -have- to cede you the authority to adjudicate those things.

[Melcar]

I have tried being the complaining one, but that was when I had built my character upon a rule. When that rule was not followed my whole build fell. I was annoyed or angry that the DM disregarded the rule, because that made me feel that he disregarded my character, feelings and well the point and power of my character was reduced to zero.

This could have been solved by some more openness between DM and players when first starting out. A discussion about what the players feel is the right amount of rules vs. fiat and how much RAW vs. RAI, and finally how much homebrew can be or should be added by DM and players alike.

It has taken me 10 years of playing before I figured this out... but it also took some years and different campaigns before it became an issue. When we started out we knew so little and knew none of the loops, no TO and knew none of the cheese we know now... only then did it actually become a problem for us... luckily we are in a good process of turning this around... we have tried our version of Tippyverse, so to speak. (And I mean that not in a derogatory way).

[animewatcha]

What is the cr for invisible spell Disjunction automatic reset spell trap? If they want to continue pulling this crap, one mysteriously goes off. Since they care about the rules so much, they should know where to find every single item for caster level ( item's will save can wind up larger than wielder's right based on caster level ? ). You kick back and read a book while they look. If they refuse to look, item is destroyed. Spellbook types likely won't like this since boccob's spellbook ( 1k pages and likely their spellbook ) is a magic item and if it goes poof, so do the spells within. If they spend the time doing other things, their stuff gets destroyed. As per the rules of disjunction spell, they have to roll for EVERY magic item.

If they get fussy from their stuff being harassed too many times, walk out the room and A if it your house ) spend the time to catch up on your shows or B if you are at a friends ) start up the car to go home.

[Sir Garanok]

Make quests ,and make it crystal-clear obvious, they can complete without fighting.

If they still choose to fight make the encounter very hard(which is a good thing),so no whining about that and
give them more to think for the next time.

You can't listen to them about prices.Have they maxed appraise skill?
And even if they do a merchant sells/buys in the price he wants to,and going by the book its half price.
(PHB 112 selling loot section)

[Krobar]

When my players started thinking they knew the stats for all the monsters I threw at them I started throwing NPC adventurers at them. Nothing like a party of evil bounty killers to challenge PCs. Lol.

As far as prices go, merchants are in business to make a profit. They don't pay retail prices. If your PCs want retail prices for what they sell they can open their own shop.

[Deophaun]

Spellbook types likely won't like this since boccob's spellbook ( 1k pages and likely their spellbook ) is a magic item and if it goes poof, so do the spells within.
What kind of spellcaster carries a spellbook that's out in the open, and not at least in a backpack/case of some kind that blocks LoE?

[Petrocorus]

What kind of spellcaster carries a spellbook that's out in the open, and not at least in a backpack/case of some kind that blocks LoE?

And what kind of spell-caster has not at least one back up?

[thematgreen]

I used to have this problem, so I tackled it another way, I made my own rules and only vaguely followed Pathinder rules. Characters would be rolled per Pathfinder rules and they would choose feats and skills and use the books in relation to their characters. Combat was typical Pathfinder rolls...but that was it.

For example, in a game I ran the main monsters were zombies...a lot of them.

The more expierenced characters were going nuts trying to figure out why they were being hit, and how these zombies re-died so easily.

Zombie:
HP -1
Claw attack - Hits on a 1 or 2 on a d6 for 1d4+1 damage
If the claw attack is successful they bite. Hits on a 3-6 for 1 damage - infects if a DC 20 fort save is failed.

Sometimes I would tell them to roll a d20 and the would be freaking out because I wouldn't tell them if it was for a skill or a save or anything, I wouldn't tell them what they needed to roll, I would just keep saying variations of "Roll your d20". Then they would roll and something would happen based on the tables I had made previously.

At first everyone was upset because they couldn't metagame and couldn't figure out my rules. They fought me every step of the way until mid session 2 they relaxed and enjoyed not knowing what to expect anymore...they were having fun until they didn't get to the little girl in the street in time, then they got the game faces on.

[loodwig]

It really grinds my gears when players don't respect the GM. If you've GM'd before and you've had fun doing it before (and so has your group), then you know what you're doing. I'm not sure where you live or who your friends are, but if they aren't involved in the game and driving the story, then they aren't playing. Give them a nice hot cup of "shut up and play," and if they don't like it and are unwilling to put forth the comparative monolithic difficulty of running versus playing, then tell them to go play WoW and form a new group. The rules, bestiary, and guides are simply a milquetoast framework for the extravagant tapestry you all weave together, and they need to figure that out sooner than later.

When I've encountered this situation, I usually find it to be true with 1 member in 6, and the rest sort of just kind of lump on. If it's just one jerk, tell him that his character had his tongue and hands removed in his sleep, and you're now on a quest to get them back. No gestures or speaking will be allowed, and if he so chooses to sit this one out, he may, and the party will continue without him on some other quest.

By chance, if it is everyone making a variety of different complaints, I usually find this to be the case when you have many experienced players who think they're "helping." I had this problem when I started my group, and while they were "friends" who had 10+ years experience (compared to my smaller number), the constant critique got old fast. So, I turned here and received probably the best advice I've ever received with regards to roll playing: ask questions at the end of the game before they leave.

"Did you guys have fun?" - They'll almost never say "no," but it forces them to remember this is a recreational activity and not a craft or profession. It also helped them contextualize that their critique is nit-picky, and not a complaint.

"What was your least favorite part?" - They'll almost always bring something up, but after the first question, it'll be (if they're mature enough) "Well, I'm just complaining because I nearly died." If they have a legitimate grievance, they'll bring it up later, and personally.

"What was your most favorite part?" - Again, before they leave, get them to focus on the positive. Take this as something that you want to do more of. Negative feedback is often whining, but positive feedback is a mandate.

[Optimator]

And I don't mean this rudely, but perhaps a multiplayer video game or a more combat focused system would appeal to them.


D&D already is one of the most combat-heavy RPGs out there.

[Alex12]

It's one thing for monster statblocks to be different, particularly those of intelligent monsters. That can be easily explained by saying that "this monster figured out an alternate racial trait/took a different feat/has an unusual class level/whatever."
For things when some other specific thing is different (say a spell works differently or something) "Roll Knowledge(*whatever*)" or "That is interesting, maybe you should try and figure out why that's so different from what you expect" and then let them actually figure out why it's different.
But if it's something that the PCs can use, such as a skill or a class or an item, it darn well better follow the rules. Because those are the rules their characters run on, and you don't change how a character works midgame without some really good justification.

[LyrissMajere]

OK I have been GM'n for about 28 years now. Ever since i was 10 years old. Started playing when i was 8 years old. Have memorized almost all the old 2nd edition books and have since started memorizing the 3.5e books. EVERY game I run is customized MASSIVELY! I change ALL the races, monsters, and create ALL my own magical items to pass out. ALL players start off with a new toon whether it starts at lv 1 or lv 7 is up to a die roll.

The largest game I have ever ran was in Ottawa, Illinois. 21 players (never do that again). out of those 21 players i had ONE that was just like the rule monger the OP has. I can't remember what rule he was trying to use but it was for the Barbarian class. He said according to the barbarian handbook he could do it and tried to start a fight over it! I finally looked at him and said flat out "IF it is in the book and you can prove it to me within the next 5 minutes I'll let you do it. HOWEVER< if it isn't then God smites your toon you are dead and have to leave!" I already knew it wasn't in the book.

That shut up ALL the other players he was inciting and he walked out when he was proved to be wrong. Granted it wasn't a friend like in the OP but it worked.

Another time one of my friends kept trying to argue with me and he was a noob. I finally told him that the GM is GOD and can do what they wish no matter what the books say! He kept it up so GOD hit him with a lightning bolt for over 99,999,999,999 damage and turned his body and soul into nothing, and never ran with him again.

[Theomniadept]

-snop- Okay, got a few issues.

1. Modifying the rules is....problematic. Nobody likes building a character only to find the DM hid his hidden rules to try and make you useless.

2. They do need to understand sell price is 50% because they're not merchants and they're not selling to an end user of the item but they should (with proper ranks and roleplaying) have the chance to find said end buyer and be the merchant guy selling at 100% price.

3. If they're combat hungry they need to be told that the game has way more than just combat.

4. If they're splitting 200 gold 4 ways, elaborate. If they mean you're not following WBL then it means you're reinforcing magic supremacy into magic mandatory. That and VoP becomes OP.

[YossarianLives]

or Paranoia...where knowing the rules is treason.
That's what the communists want you to think.

[georgie_leech]

That's what the communists want you to think.

Knowing what constitutes treason is treason!
--Friend Computer

[The Glyphstone]

That's what the communists want you to think.

Do you have a sufficient security clearance to know how communist think, citizen?

[animewatcha]

What kind of spellcaster carries a spellbook that's out in the open, and not at least in a backpack/case of some kind that blocks LoE?

Normally, I wouldn't have brought it up, but did the players declare it wasn't. Common sense would say no, but it's obvious players need to be stopped.

[Garktz]

I would make them win or die encounters, going "full tippy" on them...
I mean, the have to sneak in a wizards' mansion and steal something, the can either sneak and steal, talk to the wizard and manage to get the item from him or lie to him and take advantage of him, BUT if they fail....
Ask tippy for an uberopwizard and make him blow them in pieces...
Use hit squads with scry&die tactics, use "bird of pray tm" (psionic mind archer thing bird build from tippy) to poke them from far away, use all the broken cr creatures, go book diving for weird monsters they havent heard of, pile templates and use monster creation & advancement rules, use tuckers kobolds...
Go for monsers with classes instead of just plain monsters, they want to go by the rules? ok, you go by the rules, optimize the s***t out out your bad guys and then, ask them
Guys, do you still want to go by the rules and fight the unknown power of a dm and his world or do you guys want to go back as we were before and stop metaganing?
My opinion is, they want to make it hard for you and you arent having fun? feed on their tears, go full raw on them and make them ask you to go back to your old way of dming


Edit: they complain about you not giving them the full price for the items? ok, give them that, then, have a swarm attack type with rust monsters and adamantine horrors and get away all their toys and tell them how much safer ir to not have so many items...
You can always find an excuse for such attacks and they cant prevent them...

[Tohsaka Rin]

I really don't think being confrontational, and adopting passive/aggressive or just plain aggressive tactics are going to work very well.

The players really don't seem all that invested in the game as it is. Coming down hard on them isn't going to make any of them care any more than they already are. More likely, it'll cause a full-scale revolt.

That's pretty counter-productive to getting the players to open up, and explain their expectations for the game, which should be the goal of every DM out there.

It's supposed to be a collaborative storytelling game, not a 'who can be the biggest jerk' contest.

If that's anyone's aim, just run Tomb of Horrors or something, that's pregen'd in from the get-go.

[Deophaun]

Normally, I wouldn't have brought it up, but did the players declare it wasn't. Common sense would say no...
Huh? Considering that, in my experience, PCs buy containers (backpacks, chests, BoH, pouches, etc) and then list where their items are inside said containers on their character sheet in order to know what it takes to retrieve them, common sense would say "yes."

but it's obvious players need to be stopped.
This stops them from doing what, exactly? Complaining about combat? Looking at their phones? Accusing the DM of cheating? I was unaware misunderstand item cost rules was an actual spell. What level is it?

[Oryan77]

I'm not going to pretend to be an optimist here and give you advice that will only help to prolong the headaches you will be dealing with. People will always give you advice like, "talk to the players". Let's be honest, very few adult gamers with bad habits are going to change for the better. Yer wasting your time with these guys. How often has "talking" to problem players worked for any DM? I guarantee you that the success rate of rehabilitating a problem player is close to 0%.

You aren't even dealing with just one problem. You have a slew of problems and a lot of them are major issues. I have dealt with enough problem players and bad groups to know that the longer I put up with it, the more of my life I'm wasting. It's just not worth your time and sanity to deal with guys like this. Bad gaming is not better than no gaming. If you can't have fun DMing with a group of good players, why waste your time when you can be spending your time doing something that will be fun?

So to get to my point, do yourself a favor and either kick out the problem players or find a new group. There is no coming back from this if you continue playing with the same problem players. That's the reality when it comes to RPG groups. To be fair, I'll give a problem player one warning (politely) and let him know that disruptive players are not tolerated and will be removed from the group if they continue causing problems. In 15 years DMing, I have not had a single problem player respect that second chance and turn out to be a veteran player in our group.

BTW, doing things like customizing monsters to throw off metagamers that memorized monster stats is just bad advice unless you don't mind doing extra work to deal with a jerk. It already requires a lot of extra work on the DMs part. I'm not going to spend even more time just so I don't let some problem player ruin my game. A DM should be spending his time creating content so that the game is more fun for good players, not spending his time inventing ways to work around annoying habits of bad players.

It is a lot of work, but there are good players out there. I have had to weed through several dozen problem players before finally having an entire group (7 strong) of really great players. I've dealt with all the usual crap and gone through times where I pondered giving up on DMing. But I stuck it through and was determined to one day form a great group. And I can honestly say that I have a really good group of players to game with now.

[daremetoidareyo]

They are actively undermining your role as the GM. Memorization of creatures stat blocks means they want a RAW world, so deliver that to them: Use encumbrance, multi classing penalties, strict WBL.

If quitting isn't an option for you, my suggestion for an in game fix is to put them up against a party of optimized NPCS. Skillmonkey bard, druid, charge tripper, dragonwraught kobold sorcerer. But not in direct combat at first. Maybe a race to a mcguffin. Blow the WBL out of the water while you're at it. When the complaints start, "You are telling me that you cannot think of a way to beat these encounters?" If they can't go toe to toe, then they have to supersede that class's skills and forethought. Maybe the challenge they want is the one where predictability has been totally removed. If not, maybe they don't want to play a tabletop RPG; direct them to diablo 3.

[animewatcha]

Of course, this is all assuming the 'talk first' method don't work.

The common sense part was meant in that it would be common sense that spellbooks and it's like would not be out in the open. However, did the players say it wasn't out in the open?? Get what I mean?


It's been said that idiots ( the DM's players may be insulting to idiots in general, but let's just go with it ) drag you down to their level and beat you down with experience. I have experience dealing with idiots ( including workplace ) and have won. One of the main ways to win 'an argument / etc.' is to throw their own things like logic, thought process, etc. ( in this case, rules / mobs / events ) right back at them.

Going to the subject of containers. Secure facility? Gets attacked while they were away, did they do anything to help secure their stuff? ( go by the rules, if they have a bit of stronghold or guild or something. Bank robberies are not unheard of ). Backpacks, etc. on them? Consider all the stuff a metagamer ( versus a normal character in a story ) would carry. If non-magical bpacks and such, hello encumbrance. Magical stuff? Well disjunction ( in addition to neutering their weapons and equipment worn and I did mention automatic reset disjunction ?) de-magics the containers. Causing the containers to lose the weight reduction and space. Bursting from overfilling ( oh no exposed boccob's spellbook ) and/or enforce encumbrance ( gotta love rules ). Yay swarming ( by the rules, players can only get a certain number of attacks per turn ) for swarms of disarm and/or sunder attempts ( improved so no AoOs ) for cutting straps and pocketing non-properly secured items ( how often has that pickpocket made of with a bag of gold held by a belt-sash on tv shows/movies ?) and making off with them.

Complaining about combat --- DM is going easy on them and they complain. Take time away from game sessions ( if game session is every week, make it every other week ) to 'adjust encounters' and make them be in danger.

Cell phones are only allowed for emergencies or storage place for books. When having looking through books on there, they have a couple of minutes to find x thing or you are moving on through whatever means ( be it skip turn, story, etc. ) Cell phone 'used otherwise' means you leave.

Accusing the DM of cheating --- This is a matter onto itself. Some DMs do cheat ( too many horror stories on this forum alone ). Both against and/or for the player. I am assuming that the DM is not cheating so, couple of minutes to prove case if they wanna go through ( penalty if can't depending upon the harshness of accusation ) a slight miscalculation on bonuses is different than immense change in monster statblock. A disjunction once can be an eye-opening annoying warning. 10 times in a half hour can descend into accuser 'being asked by players' to shut up. Gentle inquiring about misunderstood item cost rules is one thing. Flat-out revolting against ( going by look of OP post ) is another.

-edit- this post was done over course of couple of hours due to doing other things. Sorry if repeats/ninjas.

[Deophaun]

Consider all the stuff a metagamer ( versus a normal character in a story ) would carry.
If that's the definition of a metagamer, then frankly there's no issue with metagamers. As your "normal character in a story" is either a) Batman or a similar archetype, and so always has what he needs to be prepared anyway, and is no different from what a metagamer would carry or b) is likely an idiot character who knowingly wanders into dangerous situations without preparation. The (b) types are kept alive by the needs of the narrative, and so aren't the standard you'd use in an Table-Top RPG.

If non-magical bpacks and such, hello encumbrance.
People keep talking about encumbrance. The only time I've ever seen it be an issue is with loot. And then they have a horse/donkey/mule and a cart. Or a wand of mount.

Magical stuff? Well disjunction ( in addition to neutering their weapons and equipment worn and I did mention automatic reset disjunction ?) de-magics the containers.
BoHs are, again in my experience, often within backpacks, so LoE is still blocked. Works on a Belt of Many Pouches. Although why you're just dropping L9 spells on them just to impose encumbrance, I have no idea.

Yay swarming ( by the rules, players can only get a certain number of attacks per turn ) for swarms of disarm and/or sunder attempts ( improved so no AoOs ) for cutting straps and pocketing non-properly secured items ( how often has that pickpocket made of with a bag of gold held by a belt-sash on tv shows/movies ?) and making off with them.
Who the heck swarms over an opponent that is going to slaughter either you or one of your friends just to slash at random leather straps?

Complaining about combat... Cell phones... Accusing the DM of cheating...
You miss the point: How is disjunctioning them to destroy their spellbooks (and now enforce encumbrance, apparently) the solution to these issues? These are the issues the DM is having. Why did you think that was the solution?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Always, ALWAYS talk to your problem players first.

ALWAYS

If there is a problem that can be worked out through explaining/discussion, you're never going to reach it by giving the player a hard time.



I was running a one-on-one game with one player, and he was dismayed that I wasn't giving him a chance to loot. It was a military-esque game, and I'd made the mistake of not telling him that I'd just be giving him WBL and free-reign of crafters. Once I explained this (it took 10 seconds, which I should've done upfront) he was all smiles and sunshine.

The problem here was that the player perceived that I was being a hardass. My mistake, and easily fixed.



I was running an opening session in turns with three players (each had taken various amounts of time to make their characters, and we had a non-playing guest in the house. They liked the idea of each getting their own prologue, while the other players kept our guest company playing MtG) before we got down to the session proper. (After the guest had left, he wasn't staying for too long, as he had plans)

One player basically exploded at me, claiming I was dictating how he'd made his character (I had not, and the feat in question another player had suggested, while I was away from the table, looking at ridiculous MtG plays) and he'd had enough.

After multiple attempts to calmly talk to the player (growing ever the more frustrated as he continued to cut me off) I finally pointed out that were he DMing, he wouldn't tolerate such behavior. "Yeah, so what?"

And I shut the book in my hands, and walked away from the table.

When I'd finally calmed down enough to explain to the other players (I cool down pretty quickly, but I need a minute to find my zen again) one pointed out the problem player seemed to just be looking for a fight.

He was not invited to play the rest of the session that night, nor will I allow him in any games I run for a good long while.

The first problem was solved by talking for a few seconds. The second problem was ALSO solved by talking for a few seconds (albeit loudly). In the first case, it was simply not being clear that I was not planning on screwing over the player.

In the second? He was a jerk, and wasn't interested in playing, so much as causing a snit.

By talking to the problem player, I was able to understand that the issue wasn't communication difficulties, but the player himself. The other two players got to enjoy a fun game that night, and didn't miss out because I decided to be heavy-handed and passive-aggressive/full-on aggressive.

Can all problems be fixed by talking? Well, no. Sometimes, there isn't a fix.

Sometimes, you have to apply the boot.

If rocks fall, and everyone dies, there is no game.

There is no fun.

[chaos_redefined]

Always, ALWAYS talk to your problem players first.

ALWAYS

If there is a problem that can be worked out through explaining/discussion, you're never going to reach it by giving the player a hard time.



I was running a one-on-one game with one player, and he was dismayed that I wasn't giving him a chance to loot. It was a military-esque game, and I'd made the mistake of not telling him that I'd just be giving him WBL and free-reign of crafters. Once I explained this (it took 10 seconds, which I should've done upfront) he was all smiles and sunshine.

The problem here was that the player perceived that I was being a hardass. My mistake, and easily fixed.



I was running an opening session in turns with three players (each had taken various amounts of time to make their characters, and we had a non-playing guest in the house. They liked the idea of each getting their own prologue, while the other players kept our guest company playing MtG) before we got down to the session proper. (After the guest had left, he wasn't staying for too long, as he had plans)

One player basically exploded at me, claiming I was dictating how he'd made his character (I had not, and the feat in question another player had suggested, while I was away from the table, looking at ridiculous MtG plays) and he'd had enough.

After multiple attempts to calmly talk to the player (growing ever the more frustrated as he continued to cut me off) I finally pointed out that were he DMing, he wouldn't tolerate such behavior. "Yeah, so what?"

And I shut the book in my hands, and walked away from the table.

When I'd finally calmed down enough to explain to the other players (I cool down pretty quickly, but I need a minute to find my zen again) one pointed out the problem player seemed to just be looking for a fight.

He was not invited to play the rest of the session that night, nor will I allow him in any games I run for a good long while.

The first problem was solved by talking for a few seconds. The second problem was ALSO solved by talking for a few seconds (albeit loudly). In the first case, it was simply not being clear that I was not planning on screwing over the player.

In the second? He was a jerk, and wasn't interested in playing, so much as causing a snit.

By talking to the problem player, I was able to understand that the issue wasn't communication difficulties, but the player himself. The other two players got to enjoy a fun game that night, and didn't miss out because I decided to be heavy-handed and passive-aggressive/full-on aggressive.

Can all problems be fixed by talking? Well, no. Sometimes, there isn't a fix.

Sometimes, you have to apply the boot.

If rocks fall, and everyone dies, there is no game.

There is no fun.

This whole post is too long to sig. This is very disappointing. I'm wondering which part is the best to sig. I'm tied between:

Always, ALWAYS talk to your problem players first.

ALWAYS

and


If rocks fall, and everyone dies, there is no game.