A question I will regret asking

[...]

I was just looking in a 4e thread and it mentioned the 3.5 exploits known as "commoner rail gun" and "invisible tower shield." What do these things do and how do they work?

[Galen]

Invisible Tower Shield
Step 1: you can use the Tower Shield to gain cover.
Step 2: if you have cover, you can Hide.
Step 3: when you're hidden, all your equipment is also hidden.
Step 4: including the Tower Shield.

paradox ....


I'll let someone else to the rail gun

[Venger]

commoner railgun:

have a bunch of commoners stand in a line with each of them readying an action to pass a thing to the next one in line. hand the object from the first one to the second and it travels any distance in only 1 round. with enough guys, it can travel at nigh-infinite speed, hence the name.

[eggynack]

commoner railgun:

have a bunch of commoners stand in a line with each of them readying an action to pass a thing to the next one in line. hand the object from the first one to the second and it travels any distance in only 1 round. with enough guys, it can travel at nigh-infinite speed, hence the name.
I think There's also a step after that, where the final commoner tosses the object at something, causing some form of ridiculousness.

[Extra Anchovies]

The thing with the Commoner Railgun is that it's more of an immediate transit service: the railgun gains no speed unless you switch from D&D physics to real physics halfway through. Good for moving messages, but Ring Gates do that better anyways because commoners are hard to protect in large numbers.

[eggynack]

The thing with the Commoner Railgun is that it's more of an immediate transit service: the railgun gains no speed unless you switch from D&D physics to real physics halfway through. Good for moving messages, but Ring Gates do that better anyways because commoners are hard to protect in large numbers.
Except the game actually does just switch from D&D physics to real physics halfway through, producing the silly result. In particular, there are rules that govern passing objects from one person to another, so that part gets exception'd into working on D&D physics, and the end toss has no such rule, so it defaults to real physics.

[Hamste]

Except the game actually does just switch from D&D physics to real physics halfway through, producing the silly result. In particular, there are rules that govern passing objects from one person to another, so that part gets exception'd into working on D&D physics, and the end toss has no such rule, so it defaults to real physics.

The end toss should default to D&D's natural damage for thrown improvised weapons so despite it having the ability to go faster than the speed of light it still does almost no damage.

[Extra Anchovies]

Except the game actually does just switch from D&D physics to real physics halfway through, producing the silly result. In particular, there are rules that govern passing objects from one person to another, so that part gets exception'd into working on D&D physics, and the end toss has no such rule, so it defaults to real physics.

There are no velocity-to-damage calculations native to D&D (or to real life), so the speed of a thrown object does not affect its damage.

ETA: Railgun'd by Hamste

[eggynack]

The end result doesn't have to necessarily be direct damage caused by hitting someone in the face. Just tossing something at a reasonable fraction of light speed can have ridiculous results, and tossing it beyond light speed does something or another, presumably.

[emeraldstreak]

There are no velocity-to-damage calculations native to D&D (or to real life), so the speed of a thrown object does not affect its damage.

ETA: Railgun'd by Hamste


there certainly are velocity-to-damage calculations native to real life.

[Divide by Zero]

and the end toss has no such rule, so it defaults to real physics.

Sure it does. The final commoner makes a normal ranged attack roll, and the object does its normal damage if it's a weapon, or uses the improvised weapon table otherwise.


there certainly are velocity-to-damage calculations native to real life.

Except the D&D concept of damage isn't a thing in real life.

[nedz]

there certainly are velocity-to-damage calculations native to real life.

Kinetic Energy = One half x Mass x Velocity Squared
KE = 1/2 m v2

Relativisticly this looks something like
KE = 1/2 m (c2 - v2)

so if v > c then things get weird.

[emeraldstreak]

Kinetic Energy = One half x Mass x Velocity Squared
KE = 1/2 m v2

Relativisticly this looks something like
KE = 1/2 m (c2 - v2)

so if v > c then things get weird.


If we get all technical the commoners will die long before that.

[Extra Anchovies]

Except the D&D concept of damage isn't a thing in real life.

Exactly. There's no (real-world) force to (D&D) damage equation. Hit points are abstract, while force is absolute (within a frame of reference, at least); the two can't be converted back and forth.

[heavyfuel]

Unless you switch from D&D physics to real world physics mid way like Anchovies said, then all that happens is that the object has moved at ridiculous speed for 6 seconds (1 round) and at the end of this round the last commoner throws the object and deals like 1d4+Str damage (if he hits, because he's probably taking a -4 to his attack) because there are rules regarding tossing an object. It's an attack.

Also, just to correct a bit regarding the Invisible Tower Shield. It's not that you can hide therefore your shield is also hidden. Total cover (usually) negates the need to hide. They simply can't see you, no matter if you're in plain sight or if they have epic level Spot.

[KillianHawkeye]

The problem with this idea is that D&D simply does not take into account acceleration or momentum/inertia. A 20th level Monk with the Run feat can do a x5 movement on his turn to travel 450 feet in 6 seconds (equivalent to just over 51 mph), and that's without any other bonuses. He can do this regardless of being completely stationary on the turns before and/or after the turn he runs.

Compare that to real life, where I can barely run 5 mph, and it takes me a couple seconds to reach top speed and I cover several extra yards of distance slowing down before I can completely stop.

Similarly, in real life, it takes a noticeable fraction of time to physically hand something to someone else to the effect of it being impossible for that transaction to take place infinitely over the span of 6 seconds. Despite this, the rules of D&D allow it.



What people fail to realize is that the rules of D&D form a simulation of reality, but like any simulation is that (for the sake of simplicity) it is not by any means a perfect copy. All simulations, by nature, must have an area of focus over which the rules accurately portray reality, but when you push the simulation beyond its limitations or the scope it was designed for there comes a point where the simulation breaks down.

The strong point of D&D (i.e. where the rules offer the greatest real-world accuracy) is in the parts that simulate combat between small groups or individuals, and perhaps some of the outright physical skills like jumping and climbing. And to be honest, even here it isn't very realistic (and note that I'm only talking about the basic combat engine, I'm not referring to magic or unreal creatures or any of those explicitly fantasy elements).

So I guess what I'm getting at is two things: Don't use an abstract simulation for things it wasn't designed to handle and expect things to still make sense, and don't try to use real world physics to explain what happens when you simulate an event or series of events that are physically impossible in the real world.

[Elkad]

.....A 20th level Monk with the Run feat can do a x5 movement on his turn to travel 450 feet in 6 seconds (equivalent to just over 51 mph)......

Compare that to real life, where I can barely run 5 mph...........


Olympic sprint speed is 22mph, and any high-school kid running a 10k can manage 10mph at least.

The monk is slightly faster than a greyhound, but it's a rational speed at least. He's not even as fast as the Bionic Man.
Unlike the commoner railgun, which is just silly.

[eggynack]

Sure it does. The final commoner makes a normal ranged attack roll, and the object does its normal damage if it's a weapon, or uses the improvised weapon table otherwise.

The damage isn't the thing being changed. The speed is. Damage can go on its merry way, and the speed, completely ungoverned by the rules, will break the world in half. The speed of the object is intrinsically powerful, with scope beyond the direct thing it's hitting. Come to think of it, we might be better off abandoning the end-toss model. Assuming we're working purely off of the impact of an object moving really fast, it doesn't really matter what happens in the end. Things will start breaking down on the chain itself, and as the commoners are doing their thing at these apparently infinite speeds, they can probably achieve the effect before being incinerated by contact with an object moving at near light speed.

[Deophaun]

Things will start breaking down on the chain itself, and as the commoners are doing their thing at these apparently infinite speeds, they can probably achieve the effect before being incinerated by contact with an object moving at near light speed.
It's worse than that. Because the commoner rail gun assumes that free actions take place with a t = 0, any free action takes place faster than c, and thus any free action under this assumption emits infinite energy.

When you speak, you shatter worlds.

[eggynack]

It's worse than that. Because the commoner rail gun assumes that free actions take place with a t = 0, any free action takes place faster than c, and thus any free action under this assumption emits infinite energy.

When you speak, you shatter worlds.
Seems plausible, though it might also work out that free actions take as long as they have the ability to take. If one commoner just wants to pass another commoner a water bucket within 6 seconds, then he's got all the time in the world and doesn't need to move at infinite speed. By contrast, in this situation, the commoner is necessarily moving at those speeds just to move the bucket the necessary distance in the time-frame allotted. In other words, by this interpretation, free actions don't necessarily take zero time. They take an small and meaningless period of time, and we're forcing that period of time to approach zero with the situation.

[Deophaun]

Seems plausible, though it might also work out that free actions take as long as they have the ability to take.
So the whole game world is just one big Schrodinger's Cat, where the state of the first action is undetermined until the last action collapses the wave function.

Though this would set up a paradox where the chain is so long and the last action requires the first to move so fast that the last action cannot actually take place because the first two commoners spontaneously combusted in the exchange. At which point, the bucket can take the full six seconds to move, so the first two commoners are ok, but then the last commoner will get the bucket, causing the first two to burn to death again...

[Erik Vale]

Invisible Tower Shield
Step 1: you can use the Tower Shield to gain cover.
Step 2: if you have cover, you can Hide.
Step 3: when you're hidden, all your equipment is also hidden.
Step 4: including the Tower Shield.

paradox ....

Error.
You get total cover, if you have total cover you can't be seen, if you can't be seen, your gear can't be seen.
No hide check required.

Also, it's worth noting you only get total cover from one direction, so the enemy moving will result in you suddenly appearing. If they were to completely circle you [impossible with normal movement speeds], you would wink in and out of existence.

What's extra amusing though, is that it doesn't apply to certain spells, so if a wizards casting, he may see the fighter hiding behind his tower shield, but if he's not, he wont, creating a similar effect.

[eggynack]

So the whole game world is just one big Schrodinger's Cat, where the state of the first action is undetermined until the last action collapses the wave function.

Though this would set up a paradox where the chain is so long and the last action requires the first to move so fast that the last action cannot actually take place because the first two commoners spontaneously combusted in the exchange. At which point, the bucket can take the full six seconds to move, so the first two commoners are ok, but then the last commoner will get the bucket, causing the first two to burn to death again...
The way I arbitrarily figure it, the commoners are actually choosing to move that fast. Like, they say, "This bucket's gotta get to the other end of the world, and quick!" and then they start passing the bucket and near light speed. I think that resolves the paradox in reasonably neat fashion, and certainly makes more sense then retroactive combustion.

[Divide by Zero]

The damage isn't the thing being changed. The speed is. Damage can go on its merry way, and the speed, completely ungoverned by the rules, will break the world in half. The speed of the object is intrinsically powerful, with scope beyond the direct thing it's hitting. Come to think of it, we might be better off abandoning the end-toss model. Assuming we're working purely off of the impact of an object moving really fast, it doesn't really matter what happens in the end. Things will start breaking down on the chain itself, and as the commoners are doing their thing at these apparently infinite speeds, they can probably achieve the effect before being incinerated by contact with an object moving at near light speed.

But there are no rules governing what effect any of that would have in the game. And once you bring DM adjudication into it, then the whole thing falls apart anyway unless the DM plays by strict RAW, in which case we're back to only the last commoner's action mattering.

[Deophaun]

The way I arbitrarily figure it, the commoners are actually choosing to move that fast. Like, they say, "This bucket's gotta get to the other end of the world, and quick!" and then they start passing the bucket and near light speed. I think that resolves the paradox in reasonably neat fashion, and certainly makes more sense then retroactive combustion.
But they'll combust anyway, as they need to move the bucket that fast, which requires an unbelievable amount of energy. We're back to the original problem: every free action offers a character the opportunity to unleash near-infinite energy. It's a little better in that it's not required to unleash that much, but still, a commoner that decides he hates the world and everything in it can still ignite the atmosphere if he wants.

[eggynack]

But there are no rules governing what effect any of that would have in the game. And once you bring DM adjudication into it, then the whole thing falls apart anyway unless the DM plays by strict RAW, in which case we're back to only the last commoner's action mattering.
It's true that there are no rules governing what effect that would have in the game. However, that means that we default to physics, if possible, rather than to DM adjudication. Such is the nature of the game.

But they'll combust anyway, as they need to move the bucket that fast, which requires an unbelievable amount of energy. We're back to the original problem: every free action offers a character the opportunity to unleash near-infinite energy. It's a little better in that it's not required to unleash that much, but still, a commoner that decides he hates the world and everything in it can still ignite the atmosphere if he wants.
Yeah, it's a weird thing. I don't think you necessarily explode things by talking, but it looks like anyone can do so if they choose to. I guess the question is whether it's possible to pass the bucket so fast that you can pass it off before being incinerated, or if you can take advantage of that initial speed to make the first commoner's actions damaging. In the latter case though, I think you'd run into your stated paradox but from the other direction, in that the bucket never had the opportunity to travel far enough that it justifies forcing the bucket to move that fast.

[SiuiS]

The end result doesn't have to necessarily be direct damage caused by hitting someone in the face. Just tossing something at a reasonable fraction of light speed can have ridiculous results, and tossing it beyond light speed does something or another, presumably.

I dunno. It's still under the game rules at that point, so the object travels incredibly fast, and then...
Gets tossed at about 20' in 6s., and the rest of the kinetic energy disappears somewhere. Because the rail gun slug's velocity when thrown is calculated from the final commoner's turn.


Honestly, this is probably how Evocation works. Multiple infinities of energy areped into reality as background radiation, to be called forth by magic at a later (or earlier, for railgun shenanigans) time.

[KillianHawkeye]

Olympic sprint speed is 22mph, and any high-school kid running a 10k can manage 10mph at least.

The monk is slightly faster than a greyhound, but it's a rational speed at least. He's not even as fast as the Bionic Man.
Unlike the commoner railgun, which is just silly.

Great job missing the point in the most condescending way possible! :smallmad:

My point was not that a Monk can run 50 mph, it was the fact that in D&D he can do so from a dead stop and later come back to a dead stop with infinite acceleration and infinite deceleration. And that this is not realistic because the simulation model is not trying to model movement speed at that level of realism. All of this was an example of how simulations have limits for simplicity, and that it's not logical to exploit the limits of the simulation in order to justify anything that takes place when you push those limits to their extremes.

[Larrx]

D&D does model acceleration. Not very well, but it does. There's a reason you take more damage from a 70' fall than you do from a 20' fall. There are also rules for how far you fall per turn, and while "velocity" only changes once, it does change. I get that the rules default to real world physics if not otherwise defined (bad idea), and while the rules don't tell us how long a free action takes they also don't allow accelerating past c. Neither does physics. I think normal free actions are nicely bounded. The railgun is still broken though . . . :(

[eggynack]

I dunno. It's still under the game rules at that point, so the object travels incredibly fast, and then...
Gets tossed at about 20' in 6s., and the rest of the kinetic energy disappears somewhere. Because the rail gun slug's velocity when thrown is calculated from the final commoner's turn.
But, as I noted, there's no rules item to my knowledge that determines the speed at which a thrown object travels at. We know the damage said item will deal to a given target, but we don't know the item's kinetic energy, or we do, because it follows standard physical laws.

[Erik Vale]

And there's also that, were you to try and pull off light speed/[other arbitrary but similar speed], the DM would be perfectly justified in those near the end being caught in a nuclear explosion due to physics.

[Larrx]

And there's also that, were you to try and pull off light speed/[other arbitrary but similar speed], the DM would be perfectly justified in those near the end being caught in a nuclear explosion due to physics.

While there may be consequences depending on how you approached c, there is nothing inherently dangerous about a near c object being close to you. There is even theory to deal with velocities greater than c, but that gets weird fast and should probably be avoided.

[SiuiS]

But, as I noted, there's no rules item to my knowledge that determines the speed at which a thrown object travels at. We know the damage said item will deal to a given target, but we don't know the item's kinetic energy, or we do, because it follows standard physical laws.

Sure we do. The speed an item travels at is the distance traveled divided by the action economy segment it occupies. Because the rule is that in situations where the speed is relevant, common sense for that action applies; high velocity thrown objects would behave as falling objects, and the thrown object does not.

I guess it's open ended enough, vaguely, to go either way. It depends on if you apply 'defaults to real world' to the entire thig or to each action individually.

[Erik Vale]

While there may be consequences depending on how you approached c, there is nothing inherently dangerous about a near c object being close to you. There is even theory to deal with velocities greater than c, but that gets weird fast and should probably be avoided.

Actually, a object moving near C would interact with the surrounding air such as to cause a nuclear reaction, due to all the atoms in the air smashing into the object because they can't move out of it's way fast enough. Effectively, the object you've just thrown initiates nuclear fusion with the molecules in it's path, and promptly explodes.

[Larrx]

Actually, a object moving near C would interact with the surrounding air such as to cause a nuclear reaction, due to all the atoms in the air smashing into the object because they can't move out of it's way fast enough. Effectively, the object you've just thrown initiates nuclear fusion with the molecules in it's path, and promptly explodes.

Fair enough. I typically imagine particles traveling at these speeds interacting with ordinary matter weakly (if at all), but you are correct . . . if regular protons and neutrons were at relativistic speeds there would be . . . consequences.

edit: typo

[Desiani]

Here's a question/curiosity... For DMs who more or less stick with raw but discounts pun pun cheese... Would you argue that by Raw... You become nonexistent to people in the direction your hidden? Or would you claim reality kicks in and they see your tower shield?

Also... If you hide behind it and move slowly or up to your base speed...mod you have to make hide checks or are you still considered totally concealed?

[SiuiS]

Here's a question/curiosity... For DMs who more or less stick with raw but discounts pun pun cheese... Would you argue that by Raw... You become nonexistent to people in the direction your hidden? Or would you claim reality kicks in and they see your tower shield?

Also... If you hide behind it and move slowly or up to your base speed...mod you have to make hide checks or are you still considered totally concealed?

I throw camoflage netting on any tower shield I plan to hide behind, myself. It gives the DM that extra sense of "they know they're being ridiculous but they're playing it straight" that they tend to find comforting.

[Desiani]

I throw camoflage netting on any tower shield I plan to hide behind, myself. It gives the DM that extra sense of "they know they're being ridiculous but they're playing it straight" that they tend to find comforting.

Lol why is that? My DM is super anti cheese and hardly lets RP fluff explain -why- you are cheesing. Just wondering what it would be like to play under a more liberal Dm... One can wonder.

[nedz]

Lol why is that? My DM is super anti cheese and hardly lets RP fluff explain -why- you are cheesing. Just wondering what it would be like to play under a more liberal Dm... One can wonder.

There is another type of DM who says "Anything you can do, so can the bad guys", ..., which in this case would lead to situations such as: "As you walk down a corridor an Orc drops the Tower Shield he was hiding behind and full-attacks you with his Falchion.

[Gemini476]

While the Commoner Railgun (or, more practically, the Skeleton Delivery Tubes) move the object from spot A to B within six seconds no matter the distance, the object does not retain any momentum. At the end of it the last skellington just receives the object and hurls it however far he would at what is probably less than relativistic speeds.

More obvious, however, is bow physics. Most of the time there is no such thing as an arc of fire in D&D, after all - your arrow travels in a somewhat straight line from A to B to the extent of your range, and a low ceiling is not an issue. Arc of fire is only a thing once you bring in stuff like volley rules, and even then only when you volley or try to shoot over a wall.
Also, it travels from A to B nigh-instantaneously. Less than six seconds, at least, no matter the distance. The arrow always hits or misses before the end of your round, or indeed before your next attack that turn since you get to shoot at a second orc if you deem it appropriate.

And with an [Epic] feat you have a range increment of "line of sight".

The moon is roughly 1,3 light-seconds away. Do you think you could resolve a ranged attack in less than a fifth of a turn?

[eggynack]

Sure we do. The speed an item travels at is the distance traveled divided by the action economy segment it occupies. Because the rule is that in situations where the speed is relevant, common sense for that action applies; high velocity thrown objects would behave as falling objects, and the thrown object does not.

If that holds, then I'll probably have to default again to the speed at which the object is being passed. Come to think of it, if that's the model being used, just constructing a ring of commoners could be the best way to pull this off. Just have them stand where you want the explosion to be, and fwapoom. Might not work as well though, because incineration has a higher chance of just breaking the chain.

[LeonCross]

On the plus side, if you appropriately space out your ring of commoners, the object being passed will drastically outpace the chain of nuclear detonations.

[Gemini476]

Why a ring? You can generally only ready one action per turn, after all.

[eggynack]

Why a ring? You can generally only ready one action per turn, after all.
I was thinking that the free actions would just occur, but you're correct that the not off-turn nature of free actions would be a hindrance to that plan.

[Galen]

While there may be consequences depending on how you approached c, there is nothing inherently dangerous about a near c object being close to you.Except the fact that a near-c object generates so much heat and light just by colliding with air molecules, that you will be instantly incinerated. Otherwise, no problems.

[SiuiS]

There is another type of DM who says "Anything you can do, so can the bad guys", ..., which in this case would lead to situations such as: "As you walk down a corridor an Orc drops the Tower Shield he was hiding behind and full-attacks you with his Falchion.

That's pretty canon, actually, being the modern version of the illusory wall with a goblin ambush behind it.


While the Commoner Railgun (or, more practically, the Skeleton Delivery Tubes) move the object from spot A to B within six seconds no matter the distance, the object does not retain any momentum. At the end of it the last skellington just receives the object and hurls it however far he would at what is probably less than relativistic speeds.

More obvious, however, is bow physics. Most of the time there is no such thing as an arc of fire in D&D, after all - your arrow travels in a somewhat straight line from A to B to the extent of your range, and a low ceiling is not an issue. Arc of fire is only a thing once you bring in stuff like volley rules, and even then only when you volley or try to shoot over a wall.
Also, it travels from A to B nigh-instantaneously. Less than six seconds, at least, no matter the distance. The arrow always hits or misses before the end of your round, or indeed before your next attack that turn since you get to shoot at a second orc if you deem it appropriate.

And with an [Epic] feat you have a range increment of "line of sight".

The moon is roughly 1,3 light-seconds away. Do you think you could resolve a ranged attack in less than a fifth of a turn?

Yeah, all this basically. A crag top archer is shooting multiple arrows thousands of feet in fractions of seconds.

[Gemini476]

I was thinking that the free actions would just occur, but you're correct that the not off-turn nature of free actions would be a hindrance to that plan.

I'm pretty sure that handing an object to someone else is a move action, hence why everyone readies it.

As an aside, here's some informative stuff re:handling objects at relativistic velocities (https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/).

[Lord of Shadows]

Error.
You get total cover, if you have total cover you can't be seen, if you can't be seen, your gear can't be seen.
No hide check required.

Also, it's worth noting you only get total cover from one direction, so the enemy moving will result in you suddenly appearing. If they were to completely circle you [impossible with normal movement speeds], you would wink in and out of existence.

That would be the Pathfinder RPG version.... :smallbiggrin:

[SiuiS]

That would be the Pathfinder RPG version.... :smallbiggrin:

That's how the 3.5 PHB handles it too.

[Deophaun]

And with an [Epic] feat you have a range increment of "line of sight".

The moon is roughly 1,3 light-seconds away. Do you think you could resolve a ranged attack in less than a fifth of a turn?
Why stop at the Moon, when the Andromeda Galaxy is visible with the naked eye? I see your 1.3 light-seconds and raise you 2.5 million light years.

Though at this point it must be restated: the problem isn't the game's rules. The problem is trying to transition between the rules and real-world physics.

[Forrestfire]

That's how the 3.5 PHB handles it too.

I have my PHB in front of me, and there's no facing rules. Same with the SRD. :smallconfused:

[SiuiS]

I have my PHB in front of me, and there's no facing rules. Same with the SRD. :smallconfused:

No, there aren't facing rules. But the tower shield specifies a direction. It's the one instance of facing remaining.

Or so I remember; not only noticing but seeing others comment on. I can't check and you can, so perhaps I'm wrong. Iunno.

[Judge_Worm]

Except the fact that a near-c object generates so much heat and light just by colliding with air molecules, that you will be instantly incinerated. Otherwise, no problems.

We have to default to the rules here, a nuclear explosion (even a quasar caused by relativistic velocity and acceleration), causes no damage, because then it would be an attack, which defaults to rules and not real world physics.

Edit: Does being knocked prone cause falling damage? Someone could be flying through deep space and get tripped by an epic fighter with a bow and a natural 20 with ungodly ranks in spot lesser deity using portfolio sense. And that person might travel billions of light years instantaneously.

[Phelix-Mu]

Don't the falling rules already imply that there is no effect caused by the speed an object moves at and the surrounding air? Wouldn't this stop the railgun from causing explosions as it approached relativistic speeds? A falling character can fall any distance and never explodes, and generally just totally fails to interact with air particles at all. To me, it sounds like there is a fixed coefficient of friction, and that the damage caused by it is either negligible or capped at some pretty low value (low in the sense of non-nuclear).

Could be totally wrong though.

[Erik Vale]

No, there aren't facing rules. But the tower shield specifies a direction. It's the one instance of facing remaining.

Or so I remember; not only noticing but seeing others comment on. I can't check and you can, so perhaps I'm wrong. Iunno.

*Looks*
Huh, Facing is pathfinder.
So you could be a great wyrm dragon using a diminutive tower shield, set it away from the other guy, and become invisible.

[Phelix-Mu]

*Looks*
Huh, Facing is pathfinder.
So you could be a great wyrm dragon using a diminutive tower shield, set it away from the other guy, and become invisible.

Now designing a bit-system form of adaptive camouflage for d&d.:smallsmile:

[Fitz10019]

No, there aren't facing rules. But the tower shield specifies a direction. It's the one instance of facing remaining.

Or so I remember; not only noticing but seeing others comment on. I can't check and you can, so perhaps I'm wrong. Iunno.

Some forms of vision are almost like facing, because they're effects are cone-shaped: the bullseye lantern's light, detecting evil/good/magic.