Can any wizard become pun-pun?

[RoboEmperor]

It is my understanding that punpun is only possible by the exploit of the manipulate form ability of the sarrukh so my question is, why can't other wizards abuse sarrukhs too?

Level 5 Wizard
1. Buy a candle of invocation or summon pazuzu to get it (arguably you could take 20 on the knowledge checks to learn of his existence)
2. Do a wish loop
3. Get an efreeti to polymorph or PaO you into a Scaled One
4. Get an efreeti to gate in a Sarrukh or give you another candle of invocation to do it yourself
5. Get manipulate form ability

Level 17 Wizard
1. Polymorph or PaO yourself into a Scaled one
2. Gate in a Sarrukh
3. Get manipulate form ability

Level 21 Wizard
1. Create an epic spell that will turn you into a Scaled one
2. Gate in a Sarrukh
3. Get manipulate form ability

Also a question about punpun's ascent to divinity, how the hell does he get pieces of a Deity to cast ice assassin? Can he ignore the material component because it's a spell-like ability? If this is true, does this mean any level 22 wizard with ice assassin spell and Ignore material component can also ascend to divinity by paying couple of XP or abusing thought bottle?

I'm just confused why pun-pun has to be a kobold.

[With a box]

The first version of pun pun was a 17th wizard (or psion I can't remember witch is), and TOers optimize it to get it earlier level

[RoboEmperor]

The first version of pun pun was a 17th wizard, and TOers optimize it to get it earlier level

But the "earlier level" pun puns all abuse pazuzu, candle of invocation, and wish loops. Can't all that be done as a human?

[With a box]

But the "earlier level" pun puns all abuse pazuzu, candle of invocation, and wish loops. Can't all that be done as a human?
But the 5th kobolt punpun one doesn't need any wish item. He can do it by himself

[Gray Mage]

But the "earlier level" pun puns all abuse pazuzu, candle of invocation, and wish loops. Can't all that be done as a human?

No. If I'm not mistaken you must be a scaly one (or something like that, I haven't read it in a while Scaled One). Which Kobolds are.

[RoboEmperor]

No. If I'm not mistaken you must be a scaly one (or something like that, I haven't read it in a while). Which Kobolds are.

Right but through the wishloop, can't you get the efreeti to polymorph or PaO you into a scaly one?


But the 5th kobolt punpun one doesn't need any wish item. He can do it by himself

Right, Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3 is only level 5.


Pun-Pun can ascend at level one. Wizard 1. Feats: Endurance, Alertness (through viper familiar.) Here's how: Dragon Wrought kobold with near infinite age (they don't take penalties or die of old age) +6 to Wisdom and INT 18 base intelligence four ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) and a corresponding masterwork item will get you more than the neccesary skill check (25) while taking ten to know that you can summon Pazuzu like Beetlejuice (saying his name three times). Summon Pazuzu make a deal that ends up with you Lawful Neutral with a LE candle of invocation. summon an Efreeti with the candle. Use the 3 wishes. Wish 1: plane shift to the astral plane. Wish 2: Another candle of invocation and wish 3: another candle. Use one to summon a Sarruhk and have it manipulate your form to have manipulate form. Ascend..

I'm having trouble understanding this part. Efreeti has 10hd, so wouldn't you required to be at least level 5 to gate one in via candle of invocation? Same question regarding gating a Sarruhk.
Also, why do you need to be in the astral plane?

Also, why can't he take 20 for the pazuzu knowledge check? There's no penalty for failure.

[ThisIsZen]

I can't speak to anything else, but a knowledge check is a binary thing. It is a switch that starts ? and goes to either 'You know this' or 'you don't know this' once, and stays there permanently until altered by in-game events.

The implication in taking 20 is that you roll the die twenty times, eventually turning up a max value roll to succeed. This doesn't work because there actually IS a penalty for failing a knowledge check - "You don't know that." So taking 20 on knowledge checks doesn't work.

[Gray Mage]

Right but through the wishloop, can't you get the efreeti to polymorph or PaO you into a scaly one?


I don't think it works because it isn't permanent, but I could be (horribly) wrong, as my op-fu is not so strong.

[Erik Vale]

It would work through PAO, but as soon as it ended the ability wouldn't work on you any more, preventing you from continuing to improve your form, meaning you can't infinity loop unless you're also looping PAO, but at this level of cheese, why not?

As for the Knowledge check, there's a penalty for failure, therefore you can't take 20.

[RoboEmperor]

It would work through PAO, but as soon as it ended the ability wouldn't work on you any more, preventing you from continuing to improve your form, meaning you can't infinity loop unless you're also looping PAO, but at this level of cheese, why not?

But polymorph does not change your mental stuff, so any changes to the mind (like MEMORY or leveling up while in polymorphed form) should retain when you change back no? Including SLAs. PaO is a little fuzzy because it gives you a new INT score, but SLAs not being gained/removed should be the same, is what I am thinking anyways. So you only need to polymorph to receive the manipulate forms from your familiar, though it'll probably be impossible to permanently change your physical scores without epic spellcasting or a permanent PaO (which is still dispellable). But then again you could create a Manipulate Form that targets everything, not just scaled ones no?

Also, no one has any input on the level 22 wizard with ignore material component using the ice assassin trick to ascend to divinity without doing any of the pun pun sarrukh stuff?

[Inevitability]

Also, no one has any input on the level 22 wizard with ignore material component using the ice assassin trick to ascend to divinity without doing any of the pun pun sarrukh stuff?

You don't need to be 22th-level. You can do all that ascend-to-divinity-without-sarrukh by just exploiting spell component pouches.


A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

Lets take a look at Ice Assassin's material components:


This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated.
Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed.
In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp.

The diamond will obviously not be in the pouch, the ice statue only if you have a big pouch, but the nail clippings of Bane? I bet those fit. All completely legal.

EDIT: And then there's still god-blooded creatures. The MM those were in listed ways to become one, so you could also acquire part of a god that way.

[Erik Vale]

But polymorph does not change your mental stuff, so any changes to the mind (like MEMORY or leveling up while in polymorphed form) should retain when you change back no? Including SLAs. PaO is a little fuzzy because it gives you a new INT score, but SLAs not being gained/removed should be the same, is what I am thinking anyways. So you only need to polymorph to receive the manipulate forms from your familiar, though it'll probably be impossible to permanently change your physical scores without epic spellcasting or a permanent PaO (which is still dispellable). But then again you could create a Manipulate Form that targets everything, not just scaled ones no?

To my knowledge, reverting back would just disable Manipulate Form, and yes, you could make a all purpose Manipulate form.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anyone who can cast Shapechange once can go full Pun-Pun if they are so inclined using nothing but the abilities granted by that spell and a common garden snake (which they can actually create via Shapechange if they want).

Shapechange into a Sarrukh, give your pet Scaled One utter devotion to you and a working brain (more than within the power of Manipulate Form) before giving it Manipulate Form (ideally without the pesky "only works on scaled ones clause"), shift your form to that of any other Scaled One, have your pet snake give you Manipulate Form, give yourself all of the abilities that you want and use the classic Pun-Pun familiar loop for the few abilities that you need a second party to work with for.

Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, the entire Planar Binding line, a bit of wealth, a high Knowledge: Religion check, and diplomacy are just some of the myriad other ways that one can go Pun-Pun if they desire it.

Honestly, about 30 seconds after the idea of Pun-Pun was first recognized the whole thing became a competition to see what the lowest level it was possible at became. That ended up being level 1 immediately out of character creation.

[RoboEmperor]

Anyone who can cast Shapechange once can go full Pun-Pun if they are so inclined using nothing but the abilities granted by that spell and a common garden snake (which they can actually create via Shapechange if they want).

You're right! Manipulate Form is a supernatural ability! And I thought Zodars were the most broken.



Honestly, about 30 seconds after the idea of Pun-Pun was first recognized the whole thing became a competition to see what the lowest level it was possible at became. That ended up being level 1 immediately out of character creation.

Can't a human or any other race also get manipulate form at level 1 if they add a PaO or polymorph into the wish loop? And again, why do they need to be in the astral plane to gate in the Sarrukh? The level 1 versions they use an Efreeti ONLY to go to the astral plane and that's it.

[AnonymousPepper]

You're right! Manipulate Form is a supernatural ability! And I thought Zodars were the most broken.



Can't a human or any other race also get manipulate form at level 1 if they add a PaO or polymorph into the wish loop? And again, why do they need to be in the astral plane to gate in the Sarrukh? The level 1 versions they use an Efreeti ONLY to go to the astral plane and that's it.

Yeah, you can PaO/Shapechange. And if you're worried about losing the ability when you transform back for whatever reason (shouldn't be, because you just have the familiar use Manipulate Form to grant your natural form Manipulate Form), remember the whole "cast PaO twice to make your form permanent" schtick.

[Chronos]

Tippy has already demonstrated that the Pun-Pun ascension is possible using nothing but spells. Anything which is possible using nothing but spells is possible starting from nothing but a single Candle of Invocation, or a single Wish. So really, the only question is how to most quickly gain access to one of either. The current state of the art on this requires only first level, but you need to be a paladin (race irrelevant), so Pazuzu will be sure to grant you your Wish. The only room for improvement left at this point is to try to figure out how to do it at level 1 with a character of arbitrary class.

[Urpriest]

I'm having trouble understanding this part. Efreeti has 10hd, so wouldn't you required to be at least level 5 to gate one in via candle of invocation? Same question regarding gating a Sarruhk.
Also, why do you need to be in the astral plane?

This appears to have been missed: Candle of Invocation has CL 17 in its statblock, not CL "whoever happens to use it".

[RoboEmperor]

Ok, I guess the only question unanswered is why do those level 1 pun pun strategies involve going to the astral plane.

[Urpriest]

Ok, I guess the only question unanswered is why do those level 1 pun pun strategies involve going to the astral plane.

Not sure on this one, but I think it has to do with timelessness, so you can't be interfered with.

[Gemini476]

Really, the only things that are required for becoming Pun-Pun is to be from Toril, for Sarrukhs to be a thing that exist (which they are, in Toril), and for you to have some way to get access to Manipulate Form.

Being a kobold and gating in a Sarrukh to Manipulate your Form to give you Manipulate Form is the dirt-simple way, as is having a snake familiar (also from Toril) that you collaborate with. Shapechange also works, as does Ice Assassin. Or just regular old magical coercion should you actually meet a Sarrukh. You also don't necessarily need to be a kobold with a viper familiar, either.

Because really, the list of what counts as a Scaled One is positively massive.


scaled ones
This encompasses all creatures in the following subcategories.

SCALYKIND
The term scalykind includes all creatures with the reptilian subtype, as well as the following creatures from the books published for the D&D game.
Asabi, braxat, dragonkin, firenewt, frost salamander, khaasta, kobold, lizard king/queen, lizardfolk, pterafolk, sarkrith, stingtail, tren, troglodyte.
Rangers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting may select scalykind instead of a creature type or organization as a favored enemy.

LIZARDS
The term lizards includes all of the following creatures from the books published for the D&D game. The category includes all dinosaurs and hydras.
Allosaurus, ankylosaurus, basilisk, ceratosaur, crocodile, cryptoclidus, deinonychus, elasmosaurus, giant crocodile, giant lizard, hydra, lizard, megaraptor, nifern, pack lizard, pteradon, quetzalcoatlus, riding lizard, seismosaurus, shocker lizard, spinosaurus, spitting crawler, triceratops, tyrannosaurus, yrthak.

SERPENT CONSTRUCTS
The term serpent constructs includes all of the following creatures from the books published for the D&D game.
Bronze serpent, iron cobra, necrophidius, serpentflesh golem.

SERPENTS
The term serpents includes all of the following creatures from the books published for the D&D game.
Amphisbaena, constrictor snake, deathcoils, deathfang, dire snake, dung snake, flame snake, flying snake, giant constrictor snake, glacier snake, Ice serpent, jaculi, legendary snake, mlarraun, reed snake, sewerm, shadow asp, tree python, two-headed adder, viper, whipsnake, winged viper.

SERPENTFOLK
In addition to creatures with the Snake Blood feat (see Feats in FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting) or a yuan-ti graft, the term serpentfolk includes all of the following creatures from the books published for the D&D game.
average salamander, banelar naga, banelar, bone naga template, bone naga, couatl, dark naga, Faerûnian ha-naga, flamebrother salamander, guardian naga, iridescent naga, marilith, nagahydra, noble salamander, ophidian, sarrukh, spirit naga, ti-khana template, wereserpent, yuan-ti abomination, yuan-ti anathema, yuan-ti broodguard template, yuan-ti broodguard template, yuan-ti halfblood, yuan-ti holy guardian, yuan-ti mageslayer, yuan-ti pureblood, yuan-ti tainted one template, yuan-ti tainted one template.
Rangers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting may select serpentfolk instead of a creature type or organization as a favored enemy.





That's right, getting a yaun-ti graft is enough to make you a Scaled One.

Being "of Toril" should be pretty easy if Pun-Pun is even on the table, since 3.5 did a somewhat big attempt at divorcing the settings from each other. If Sarrukhs are a thing and you're playing in official campaign settings then you're probably a native to Toril unless you're playing a Planescape or Spelljammer game. Which isn't really all that supported in 3.5, to be honest.