If Beholders had a LA what would it be?

[Ramza00]

I am just curious, if you were to assign a LA for a Beholder, what would it be?

Str +0, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +4

Fly 20 Good

Antimagic Cone

and all those Eyestalk goodies.

[Fax Celestis]

+3 for good stats, +1 for flight, +1 for AMC, +3 for eyestalk SLAs. +8 total, up there with the Mind Flayer.

Of course, you have to remember to keep RHD too.

[Ramza00]

+3 for good stats, +1 for flight, +1 for AMC, +3 for eyestalk SLAs. +8 total, up there with the Mind Flayer.

Of course, you have to remember to keep RHD too.
Yes never forget the RHD :smallwink: So are you saying it is ECL 19 for a player?

[Fax Celestis]

I would say that's underpowered for ECL 19, but that's also how I'd LA it.

[Ramza00]

I would say that's underpowered for ECL 19, but that's also how I'd LA it.

Well you are supposed to do LA based off how that character would compare to a similar ECL character (not in a duel situation but generally). You factor LA+HD, not just LA alone for its abilities.

For example a Tarrasque would probably have a LA of 0 (or even negative) for those 48 magical beast hd paid for his abilities. Compare a tarrasque to a lvl 48 PC. Of course this is an extreme example, and factoring LA is a headache for some monsters were never meant to be played as players.

So now its ECL 17? Is this good, bad, right? Asking other people's opinions.

Yet hypotheticallly... :smallwink::smallsmile: I would drop at least 1 LA for at that LA flight isn't anything good especially at that speed and maneuverability (compare it to the raptoran). Perhaps another LA by folding in the eyestalks with the amf cone. Those two things are the primary abilities you get for those 11 monster HD.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, +6 is probably better. I'd say that any DR/SR/NA it has is equally countermanded by its lack of item slots (what's it get, ring/ring/amulet/brow/head?).

[Ramza00]

It has no DR or Spell Resistance. Just All-around vision, antimagic cone, darkvision, 60 ft., flight, and its eyestalks.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah. Definitely +6 then.

[Fixer]

But it has 10 eyestalks! I don't have my MM handy and it isn't in the SRD to say what they are.

Oh, right, they published them http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a

Charm Person - Level 1
Inflict Moderate Wounds - Level 2
Telekinesis - Level 5
Slow - Level 3
Disintegrate - Level 6
Charm Monster - Level 4
Fear - Level 4
Finger of Death - Level 7
Flesh to Stone - Level 6
Sleep - Level 1
and the central Anti-Magic Cone - Level 6

Even assuming you cannot use more than three rays per opponent is not much hindrance because PCs are usually outnumbered anyway. You only need four opponents and you can use ALL your rays on them each round.

The LA for the eyestalks should be at least +9, due to the spell levels they can duplicate at the very least. One level 7. Three level 6. One level 5. Two level 4. One level 3. One level 2. Two level 1. As they are each usable at will they are similar to invocations. At what level would a warlock know so many invocations? The Beholder would even have decent HP to match as well as natural levitation and the all-round sight. Do I need to remind that each of these are ranged touch attacks?

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, so it's equivalent to a L11 warlock with the rays. So? Making it ECL 17 would compensate for that, I believe.

[Ramza00]

Fixer makes some comments about 10 eyestalks (my wording not his)

You can only fire 3 rays at a person per round (due to you can only orient 3 rays in one direction). In all other directions you can only fire 2 rays.

Remember with LA you aren't figuring out the most "opportune" use of your abilities, only the "average" use of them as a player. Unless you are fighing armies 24/7 firing 10 blasts a round in a total of 5 different directions isn't as good as you make it. As a PC you will be firing 3 eyes, and perhaps 5, and maybe 7 once in your character life.

Now as a BBEG who is attacking a throne room full of people (after teleporting in) you may use all 10, but remember LA is for players, not for NPCs. How often will you be able to do such an encounter?

ECL 17, this is the time when a wizard has 9th lvl spells. Thus he can quicken a spell, normal casting, +familiar with imbue spell like ability. This is before timestop and/or chocker via shapechange.

[the_tick_rules]

are you planning to play a beholder, that'd be something new.

[Ramza00]

are you planning to play a beholder, that'd be something new.
Yes in a short term adventure that is "counter game". Revenge of the monsters. (DM deciding to push back his gestalt game we were planning and wants to do something "fun" as a break thus some short games before a real campaign) A random group of monsters are adventuring together killing the "wierdos" (aka normal pc adventurers, not the non npc humans and similar playable races).

The Plot: After being hunted by such "wierdos" for so long your group of misfit monsters have agreed to work together and hunt such creatures that your associated monster governments have put bounties on. Kill this adventuring group and collect the bounty.

My plan is to be a beholder and eventually go beholder mage (just a few levels we will be high levels won't be epic). DM said we can play races that don't typically have an LA if we can figure out a good one (thus this thread). Additionally 3 LA will be removed (Thus an LA of 6 will be counted as LA of 3, or if the monster has no LA you get 3 LA of templates to mess with). Everybody is forced to be a monster but you can do so "semi pc" related monsters for example I know one person is wanting to be a slyph gish. We dont' know what lvl the game will start besides it will be mid to high lvl possibly nearing epic but not epic.

I don't know what the rest of the party will be besides this (6 people):
One person may do a troll but he isnt' for sure yet, he may do a momf with a monster race instead and thus just assume forms such as the troll. He may do something else entirely.
Another person wants to do a hydra with half dragon applied (he needs to figure a LA of hydra and how many heads)
Another person is thinking slyph
2 more people
MeSo if the character is ECL 17, he will be ECL 14 after the rules. Any future lvls will be in beholder mage (I will sacrifice the crappy eyestalks first, though losing the Anti Magic Cone will hurt.) Won't really catch on into an unstoppable abomination that is beholder mage till epic lvls anyway. What to cast 9th lvl spells with beholder mage if beholder is ECL 17 I need to be lvl 26 (23 with DM rules), then again I can cast 9 spells per round (6 of them have to be something like personal or an area that those eyestalks can't face a direction). At lvl 20 probably the end point of the temporary adventurer (more or less) I will be casting 6th lvl spells spells but then again I can cast 6 spells per round and still have 4 of my eyestalks left.

All the while facing some near epic adventurers.

Sounds fun?

This thread was designed to get an idea of the LA since I will feel more comfortable asking other people and not just guess myself. Plus I can show the DM my plan.

[Fax Celestis]

Man, in your shoes I'd play a psionic Aboleth. Or maybe a phrenic Bluespawn Godslayer. :D I dream...

[Ramza00]

Man, in your shoes I'd play a psionic Aboleth. Or maybe a phrenic Bluespawn Godslayer. :D I dream...

Don't feel like psionic right now :smallsmile: (what is your fascination though fax with psionics and the mm4 spawn :P anyway) Psionics are simpler bookwork (which I feel like/crave right now) but I just don't feel like psionic. Thus the beholder :smallsmile:

Plus wouldn't it be fun to be a beholder, teleport into a place with adventurers, an army, and/or a throne room. Create true havoc and destruction. And after its done get paid (the bounty) for all your fun :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

So anybody's else opinion on what the LA should be? Also I am thinking about crossposting this post on the wizard boards I just don't know which section to post it under :(

[Fax Celestis]

That is rather nifty.

As for my obsession? I just don't see them used enough. I want to run a game one of these days where the 'spawn take over. Postapocalyptic steampunk high fantasy, if you will.

[Ramza00]

Oh one more thing I have Lords of Madness (obviously) though I haven't read all the details about beholders and such for a long time. I am going to do so with this character. Anything in particular I should look out for/add to the character? I know they have some variant options...

[brian c]

Lords of Madness has some really good stuff for Beholders, there's a Beholder Mage class and a bunch of beholder-only feats.

Also, Fax, I was totally confused seeing that you have a new avatar.

[Ramza00]

Also, Fax, I was totally confused seeing that you have a new avatar.
I second the new avatar confusement business, I noticed it today, I don't know I like it. Yet this may be due to the confusement and not yet associating it with you. If I don't like it after confusement I will use my infinite divine ranks to force you to change back :smallwink:

[Quietus]

Thirding Fax's ava-change. Threw me off as well. I saw someone refer to Fax, and had to go back and check, 'cause I hadn't see the old 'tar.

[Ramza00]

Now as much as Fax is great and he deserves his own thread, he doesn't deserve this thread( which is mine *acts all greedy* ) Thus what LA should Beholder be, and any other helpful suggestions on what I am planning?

[Fax Celestis]

I switched avvies because Silence is no longer adventuring. Now it's Vakiah. I may yet switch back, if someone starts an ECL 8+ campaign that allows Shadowcasters that I'm interested in. *hint hint nudge nudge*.

In any case, I was thinking: it might even be a +5 LA, for loss of body slots. That's a lot of gear you can't use. No boots, no capes, x4 cost for strange armor, no gloves, no bracers, no rings (unless your dm will let you put them on your eyestalks), no weapons (unless you upgrade the beholder mouthpick from 2e), no amulets (see ring note).

That's a *lot* of gear you're missing out on.

PS: You know what'd be interesting? A Beholder Totemist.

[Ramza00]

Why no capes? I flying eyball with multiple eyeballs can wear a cape *acts defiant*

Rings, and amulet the DM will allow probably... same with hat and facial thingy.

No boots, bracers, gloves, belt.

Isn't it 2x cost and not 4x cost for slotless items?

Also no to the totemist. Maybe in gestalt game or if I were playing a beholderkin instead.

[Fax Celestis]

it is x2 for slotless, but custom-shaped armor costs as barding does and is x4.

[Ramza00]

Well I probably won't be wearing armor anyway due to me planning to go into beholder mage which has ASF. Slotless bracers+spells will be my only armor. (Though expensive armor :smalleek: )

Seriously anybody know which section I should crosspost this on the wizard site?

[Fax Celestis]

Unfortunately, no idea.

[Ramza00]

Well I am thinking Monsters' Lair (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25), What's a Player to Do? (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=48), or Unearthed Arcana and House Rules. (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=480)

[Jack Mann]

Monsters' Lair, I should think.

[AtomicKitKat]

Beholder Mage rocks(All the spells known of a Wizard, with the "On the fly" choice of a Sorceror), but burns slots fast. That and you need to think long and hard about which eyes you want to put together(so that you can best maximise a combination of 2-3 spells).

[Ramza00]

yes beholders rock at novaing or just being useful at always having the right spell ready.

Well I crossposted here
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=812583

[Ramza00]

Start reading Lords of Madness section on Beholders and I found this.


A creature with a beholder-shaped body can wear the following magic items:
• One headband, hat, or phylactery on the body. A beholder can only wear a helmet specially designed to fit over the creature’s entire body.
• Three pairs of eye lenses or goggles over the central eye and up to two eyestalks (one pair per eye or eyestalk).
• Three amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, or scarabs on up to three eyestalks (one item per eyestalk).
• One belt worn about an eyestalk.
• One pair of bracers or bracelets on a pair of eyestalks.
• Up to three rings on up to three eyestalks (one ring per eyestalk).
Beholders cannot wear vests, vestments, shirts, robes, suits of armor, cloaks, capes, mantles, gloves, gauntlets, boots, or shoes.

Beholder mages and elder orbs are exceptions to the rule that beholders do not create magic items. Some of the items fashioned by these powerful creatures are among the treasures sought after by their lesser kin and adventurers alike.

[Ramza00]

Well if anybody is reading the above thread, somebody posted the "offical" answer according to Dragon #293 (March '02) is ECL 24. I argued that is an irrational LA (LA of 13). (You can read it in an above thread why, with that LA might as well just do the shapechange route)

I am thinking about arguing LA of 6 or 7. I am sorry if it seems I am wasting your people time, I just want some input on how you would do it and what your rational would be :)

[storybookknight]

*hiss* no beholder LA's!

[Ramza00]

*hiss* no beholder LA's!

*hiss back* don't make me bite your tongue :smallwink:

Under normal play/type of games I would agree with you.

[Vik]

I have a question for you : will this game be, as it seems, mostly about tracking and TPK-ing NPCs with PC classes ? If so, you might as well just consider CR. After all, it's designed to measure the strength of a given creature vs a standard party. LA are there to take into account the fact that a PC is not only fighting one group of adventurers before dying painfully and giving them exp ... or TPK-ing them :smallwink:

[Ramza00]

That is a good way to look at it Vik. I will still say as a DM it would be higher LA than CR due to you using better scores and better wealth.

CR 13 Base, Elite Array adds 1 CR. CR 14.
Now NPC wealth at lvl 14 is 45,000 gp. A value a normal player should get about lvl 10, thus a 4 lvl difference. NPC wealth at lvl 18 is a little less what a PC should get lvl 14.

So +2 CR (13 CR vs 11 HD) for base monster abilities+1 CR for rolling scores+4 CR for wealth.

So I am guessing about 7LA.

Did what I say make sense?

[marjan]

I would say +5 or +6 LA at most. The LA of most monsters isn't much bigger then adjustment in their CR so I guess this would be enough. Although he has those nice eyestalks there is no much use of spells cast as an 13lvl caster when your ECL is 24, plus you lose some of the slots on your body.