3.5 Daggerspell Shaper advice

[Trianas]

I’m new to playing a Druid and have looked at many Druid prestige classes. (The DM is not limiting us to the core rulebooks) The prestige class I have decided on is the Daggerspell Shaper from Complete Adventurer. I would like to get advice on the best way to build him; I’m starting as a level 2 character. I put my 1st class as a rogue to get the extra skill points at lvl 1 and my second class as a Druid. I originally planned to go to lvl 8 as a Druid before I changed over to the prestige (I want to be able to wildshape into large creatures a.s.a.p.).I picked up two-weapon fighting for my 1st feat and I plan on getting weapon focus (dagger) for my lvl 3 feat and natural spell for my 6th lvl feat.

My role in the campaign is the off-healer, but I would also like to be melee in animal form and ranged in my natural form and heal only when needed.

The main questions I have are:

What level should I switch over to Daggerspell Shaper?

What feats do you recommend for my future levels?

What spells should I have on the ready to do the most damage?

and what equipment would suit me best?

Thank you in advance for the help
Also this is my first post here so be gentle… :)

[Amphetryon]

What, specifically, attracts you to the Daggerspell Shaper? Was there a particular feature you hoped to get from it, or do you intend to finish the PrC? I ask, because it's generally regarded as a relatively weak choice, particularly when compared to a simple straight Druid. If you're sure this is the route you wish to take, that's fine; I'm just clarifying your goals with the class. In any event, I'd stick with Druid through 9, if you intend to take DSh through to completion.

Aside from the prerequisites for DSh, you'll want Natural Spell. If melee in wild shape is your main goal, you might want to consider the Aberration Blood and Aberration Wild Shape feats from Lords of Madness to increase your combat options, while Tome of Battle's Martial Study (Shadow Hand: Clinging Shadow Strike) and Martial Stance (Shadow Hand: Assassin's Stance) would up your sneak attack damage; you could even use the latter two feats to qualify for DSh without a Rogue level, thereby only losing a single caster level if taking DSh to completion.

[Trianas]

Thank you for the reply-

I’m not 100% set on this class yet- I have played D&D for a few years now and I have always been asked by the DM and other party members to play the Rogue- this campaign we have another victim to play the Rogue which allowed me to pick up something new,

I have always been intrigued by the Druid and really wanted to get my first one going, I guess the reason I was attracted to the DSh is because I have experience with the Rogue style of play and this PrC is keeping me a bit tied to the rogue class still.... wow now that i have dug into my inner feelings I see I’m trying to still play a rogue through being a Druid... ugh!

Anyway our DM is real big on stealth and sneaking into situations, however it is always soo soo difficult and we ALWAYS get busted and then a big loud battle ends up taking place, I know that a Druid will give me the stealth required, I just was under the impression that I could do more melee damage with this PrC than straight Druid...

I believe another one of my issues is I don’t fully understand the Wild shape feature and what stats change with your new form and which meld into it... I wanted to make my "natural" shape to be more powerful until I can fully grasp what Wild shaping entails I have another post on a separate forum for that called "wild shape for the lazy" lol

I’m level 2 at the moment and have about 2 weeks till our next session so I have a bit of time to still get things straight-

What recommendations do you have as far as feats if I can drop the Rogue class and go straight Druid? I know at lvl 6 I need the natural spell feat which is awesome!

[Phelix-Mu]

Druid can definitely do stealth. It probably has some of the best buffs for many of the out-of-combat things, and being able to get Tiny Wild Shape and high-dex forms pretty much caps off their being able to sneak around. Plus, who suspects the housecat?

Wild Shape is unfortunately pretty complicated compared to the rest of the class. The main thing to remember is that your physical stats change, your mental ones don't, you don't gain more bonus hp from the change to Constitution, and you gain movement modes, attacks, and special attacks from the creature's statblock. There are other things you get, too, but I believe you get all of those without limitation (could be wrong though).

Someone may well be along in a moment with a link to a guide or something; in which case, I urge you to read up. Wild Shape has lots of potential, even without Daggerspell Shaper, but it all depends on how you use it.

And don't worry about the power handicap. A druid can take some pretty intense suboptimal choices and still end up capable.

[eggynack]

You can find a comprehensive set of rules governing wild shape hereabouts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). Should clear up weirdness thereabouts. As for build, that depends some on what you want to do, and what books you have. My general druid feat list template is basically that you want one wild shape form adding feat, generally out of aberration wild shape, dragon wild shape, exalted wild shape, and maybe frozen wild shape, one major summoning feat, either greenbound summoning or rashemi elemental summoning, and then you flavor that with some animal companion feats, like natural bond and companion spellbond, as well as magic enhancing feats like initiate feats or versatile spellcaster. It's a setup that tends to make pretty full use of feat resources, and gets you a good amount of power.

[Trianas]

Eggynack, thank you for the advice I am planning on using a fleshripper as my main companion and picking up a second possible with the wild cohort feat with natural bond and companion spellbond, and again ill have to wait till I get back to the states to open the link, but I will open them and hopefully it will do me a world of good..

Phelix-Mu
You mentioned the housecat and I’m glad you did as that was one of the ideas I was contemplating, however with an AC of 14 and an average of 2 HP I can see the DM having the "cat" getting kicked by a disgruntle guard and rolling 1d6 or so damage and splat.... re-roll a new character!

I know that the "cat" will gain more HD but, (for example) a level 12 cat will still get one shot by other level 12 characters.

I know I’m missing something in the text and wild shape is one of the best aspects of being a druid. Whatever I’m missing is making me think changing into some forms is a weakness and gives a moment of extreme vulnerability to the class.

Again thanks for the help and sorry for being such a newb on the topic :smallannoyed:

[eggynack]

Phelix-Mu
You mentioned the housecat and I’m glad you did as that was one of the ideas I was contemplating, however with an AC of 14 and an average of 2 HP I can see the DM having the "cat" getting kicked by a disgruntle guard and rolling 1d6 or so damage and splat.... re-roll a new character!

I know that the "cat" will gain more HD but, (for example) a level 12 cat will still get one shot by other level 12 characters.

I know I’m missing something in the text and will shape is one of the best aspects of being a druid. Whatever I’m missing is making me think changing into some forms is a weakness and gives a moment of extreme vulnerability to the class.
HP isn't impacted by wild shape. Your constitution changes, but your total HP just remains perfectly static regardless of what form you take. Your HD also stays the same. So, you don't have too much to fear from getting kicked by guards.

[Trianas]

That makes me feel a lot better I have been known to upset some guards in my time-

I am scrolling through the PHB and DMG and I don’t see anything else as far as wild shape besides what is listed in the Druids class description-

I have most of the books saved onto my tablet, is there someplace else to look to for the rules of wild shaping?

[Phelix-Mu]

That makes me feel a lot better I have been known to upset some guards in my time-

I am scrolling through the PHB and DMG and I don’t see anything else as far as wild shape besides what is listed in the Druids class description-

I have most of the books saved onto my tablet, is there someplace else to look to for the rules of wild shaping?

There were some errata and updates to Wild Shape. I believe they have been incorporated into the SRD, but they relate mainly to two areas, aside from the basic Wild Shape class feature in the druid section.

1.) Polymorph Spell: some of the text is inherited from polymorph. Polymorph was changed a couple of times as 3.5 evolved.

2.) A section in the Monster Manual, I think. Alternate Form, perhaps, in the glossary. Also ended up getting changed.

You should be able to download the errata and such from the WotC site; google or someone else may provide a link, I'm sure.

EDIT: eggy is the resident and well-regarded druid aficionado round these parts, so I defer entirely to him on these matters. His advice is all over this forum, and I'm sure there are more ppl than just me reserving HD space/bookmarks for his ever-expanding, yet-to-be-released druid handbook.

[eggynack]

There were some errata and updates to Wild Shape. I believe they have been incorporated into the SRD, but they relate mainly to two areas, aside from the basic Wild Shape class feature in the druid section.

1.) Polymorph Spell: some of the text is inherited from polymorph. Polymorph was changed a couple of times as 3.5 evolved.

2.) A section in the Monster Manual, I think. Alternate Form, perhaps, in the glossary. Also ended up getting changed.

You should be able to download the errata and such from the WotC site; google or someone else may provide a link, I'm sure.

The errata fully caused wild shape to inherit its text from wild shape, where it was once pulled from polymorph. By my understanding, it was because they were trying to distance stuff from the borked polymorph rules as much as possible. Alternate form was apparently also changed, though I wasn't particularly aware of that until about five seconds ago. Information on alternate form can be found on page 305 of the monster manual, and also apparently in the errata, which can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata).

[Phelix-Mu]

The errata fully caused wild shape to inherit its text from wild shape, where it was once pulled from polymorph. By my understanding, it was because they were trying to distance stuff from the borked polymorph rules as much as possible. Alternate form was apparently also changed, though I wasn't particularly aware of that until about five seconds ago. Information on alternate form can be found on page 305 of the monster manual, and also apparently in the errata, which can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata).

It was particularly frustrating if you were playing at the time they were changing stuff, because the one source in the class feature pointed you to one place, which had been errata'd, and which in turn pointed you to the other place, which had also been errata'd. It was like a wild goose chase, but where the goose is made of rage-inducing rules text instead of goose.

I know they were likely working with different departments and dev teams over at WotC, but they could hardly have made a bigger hash of how errata was dealt with in 3e, late 3.5 in particular. Granted, they had laid their proverbial bed with the mother of all systemic unforeseen consequences (the reason we all both love and hate 3.5), but still, debacles like Complete Psionics and Tome of Battle make my inner copy editor seethe with fury.

[eggynack]

It was particularly frustrating if you were playing at the time they were changing stuff, because the one source in the class feature pointed you to one place, which had been errata'd, and which in turn pointed you to the other place, which had also been errata'd. It was like a wild goose chase, but where the goose is made of rage-inducing rules text instead of goose.

I know they were likely working with different departments and dev teams over at WotC, but they could hardly have made a bigger hash of how errata was dealt with in 3e, late 3.5 in particular. Granted, they had laid their proverbial bed with the mother of all systemic unforeseen consequences (the reason we all both love and hate 3.5), but still, debacles like Complete Psionics and Tome of Battle make my inner copy editor seethe with fury.
Yeah, ridiculous cross referencing is part and parcel of the D&D experience. The SRD is a step in the right direction, though sourcing things based on it can be annoying in a different manner. In particular, I was trying to cite a source on my earlier alternate form linking, and foolishly sought out the DMG's special abilities section, as that's the section of the SRD it's in. Took awhile to recall that the monster manual also has that kinda stuff.

Anyway, on the topic of both druids and things that require annoying cross referencing, am I the only person who is a massive fan of the fiend folio's fhorge as a 13th level animal companion option? It's just such a ridiculous amalgam of abilities from other animal companions, reading as some sort of extraplanar constrictor/rhino/badger/boar. Perfectly reasonable stats to boot, as it's roughly comparable to a dire bear.

[Trianas]

Guys, thank you again for the help, I believe that I have what I need now.... I have decided to steer clear of the daggerspell shaper and stick with straight Druid. It seems with my new understanding of Wildshape I will be much happier sticking to the basics!