How broken are CRs?

[Strigon]

I'm fairly new to DMing, and I've made a 1-session campaign for my players to play next weekend.
They'll likely have a wizard, a paladin/cleric, a barbarian, and one wildcard. None will be really optimized, but I don't expect any incompetence.
The issue is, I'm still getting used to balancing encounters; most of mine have been a touch on the easy side. For this next game, I've mostly based the encounters off of the CR rankings in the rulebooks.
However, everyone here is firmly of the opinion that CRs are a joke, and I've made my a couple of my encounters a bit more interesting than a standard fight, due to external events.
Now, I'm absolutely certain these encounters will cause a fun time to be had, but I'm concerned it might cause a TPK if the numbers in the book are really that far off base.
If things start going bad, I could fudge the numbers, but I'd rather have them scrape through the encounter on their own.
I realize this sort of thing normally comes from experience, but can you guys give me some general tips, or would you need to see the encounters themselves?

[Blackhawk748]

CR isnt completely borked, just pretty close. CR is best used as a ballpark figure, and on some creatures (That Damn Crab being one) are just plain wrong. Its best to look at the creatures statblock and compare it to other creatures of a similar CR. Personally i use Ogres as my baseline for CR 3, as they have proven to me that they are CR 3, and i have multiple other creatures for other CRs, generally Dragons or Hydras once they hit CR 8 and up. Now obviously this method only works one single bruiser creatures, but it is a fairly good ruler.

[Larrx]

As Blackhawk said, the CR system is . . . less than perfect, but not completely useless. If you're unsure how tough an encounter might be I would recommend using a low CR encounter and increasing the HP of the enemies. Extra health might require the PCs to expend more resources to win, but unlike higher BAB/saves/extra minions the result will be very predictable. Once you're more comfortable, start exploring other (more fun) ways to increase encounter difficulty.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

You might try this homebrew CR calculator.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192329-CR

I just wing it based on how the party handled the last group of similar monsters. In other words I build my goblinoid encounter based on the last goblinoid encounter. A dragon encounter off the last dragon encounter. An undead encounter off the last undead encounter. Gets kind of messy when it's a mixed monster type encounter (a beholder and a bunch of kobolds), but otherwise it works well for me.

The real trouble is my NPCs versus their PCs.....

[Strigon]

All right, I think I'll do that.
And, with it being a single session, I can always bump up the loot if things get too tough.

[oxybe]

It really depends on three factors:

1 - How optimized are the players? The kind of encounters that will be challenging depends quite a bit on if we're looking at wizards who focus on blasting and barbs that think toughness, endurance and diehard are great feats then wizards who focus on batmanning/debuffing to high heck and barbs who took a pounce variant and power attack/shock trooper

2 - the monsters themselves. A group of kobolds warriors who bumrush the party is far less dangerous then a group of kobolds who have a sorceror stick the party in place while a cleric of Kurtulmak who buffs up a group of spear chuckers with returning ammo.

One note monsters are simply less threatening then those who can react to what the players can throw out. Vice versa is also true in that if the players can find a way around your one note, they're kinda screwed.

You also want to make sure you're putting monsters the players can actually fight. A shadow might seem like a weak monster, but if the PCs can't actually hit the incorporeal undead, they're gonna get strength drained until they die.

3 - the location/situation. fighting kobolds in an open plains is a much different fight then if you're going at them in their tunnels, which are likely sized for kobolds and not humans/elf/dwarfs/half-orcs and filled with traps. Catching the enemy unaware and getting a free round can be absolutely debilitating if it's used right, on the flipside if those kobolds can get a free go at the PCs, they may very well have to hoof it back.

In short, this is basically why CRs are sketchy since they're only an eyeball at best and in some situations (like the infernal hellbeast of a thousand wailing player characters: the damned crab) the CR simply isn't indicative of the trouble it can pose.

The more we know, the more we can advise.

[Kelb_Panthera]

CR is based on a minimal base-line level of capability. If you're capable of accurately adding a couple of numbers together you should easily meet or exceed that base-line.

Consequently, cr is typically going to swing low for a group that does even a modest job of optimizing their characters.

There are, of course, exceptions. True dragons tend to swing a bit high for their listed CR's and virtually everything in MM2 is somewhere between way off and "wtf were they thinking," but for the most part a low-op group should be adequately challenged by enemies of a CR equal to or slightly above their level.

Realistically, trial and error are going to be the most accurate determinants for what's appropriate. Start low and gradually turn up the heat until things really get cooking.

[nedz]

One thing I sometime do with new parties is run structured encounters where reinforcements may, or may not, turn up.

The thing with new parties is not so much have they optimised their characters, rather than have they worked out what their characters can do and have they worked out how to work together as a team. I find that this is the big variable, though after a few encounters they will suddenly improve even without levelling.

[sideswipe]

Don't use any creature in this post, and you should be fine

how to be evil to player's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so))

or the rhemoraz......

[Phelix-Mu]

A good policy is to google something like "CR adamantine horror" or whatever it is you are looking to use for important encounters. If you get multiple hits from ppl ranting about how badly overpowered the creature is, there's your indication to use a different means of estimating it.

A whole bunch of thread on this forum have dealt with erroneous/misleading CRs, so you could also search GitP and do some advanced reading on the usual problem children.

[Extra Anchovies]

A good policy is to google something like "CR adamantine horror" or whatever it is you are looking to use for important encounters. If you get multiple hits from ppl ranting about how badly overpowered the creature is, there's your indication to use a different means of estimating it.

Oh man, the Adamantine Horror. I love that thing, since it showcases how terrible MM2's CR system is. Initiative +8 (so it will very often get in a turn before most of the party), plus at-will Disintegrate, Implosion and Disjunction. For CR 9. I like to think they forgot to put a "1" at the front of that CR number.

[Necroticplague]

Some of the more basic problems with CR that aren't related to specific monsters (like the online Monstrous Crab or the Adamantine Horror)

1. Too much emphasis on numbers instead of utility. Simply put, in terms of "weight", the CR system likes to think "giant wall of HP and damage=high CR". That's why CR and size tend to trend in similar directions (which hilariously means touch AC trends downward as CR goes up). However, handy abilities with little means of protection are more relevant to how hard a challenge actually is. Incorporeal, ability damage, save-or-loses, no-save-just-loses, flight, perfect defenses, are all more relevant than simply "how big is this thing's numbers".

2.Weighs amount by too much. Simply pt, the way the CR system works makes it so that large amounts of weak creatures are supposedely equal to one strong creature. Except for the fact that, often, if the component creatures are too weak, even an infinite amount would be a trivial threat. There's no amount of level1 goblin warriors that could threaten a level 20 character, even if the CR system says there is an amount (albiet, a very large one).

This is why we have nigh-epic CR20 creatures you can beat with CR3 ones with 100% success rate, CR3s that could trivially TPK a level 6 party, CR9 that can kill a party member every round unless they have ridiculous saves, and creatures that, played as PCs, would get no experience defeating an identical member that is an NPC.

[Zombimode]

There's no amount of level1 goblin warriors that could threaten a level 20 character, even if the CR system says there is an amount (albiet, a very large one).

Except it doesn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

[Phelix-Mu]

The game's mass combat rules are pretty terrible, too, so beyond numbers of enemies in the low 10s, none of the math really shakes out very well.

Much of this, as stated before, is best fixed with experience in the system. I know that a group of four ogres is seriously a danger, but six bugbears are probably less so (assuming a straight up fight and not an ambush playing to bugbear strengths). But, generally speaking, as the optimization level of the party increases, the more likely they are to punch substantially above their weight-class. So an moderately optimized party can school both of those combats without batting an eyelid, since the threat they pose is mainly hp damage and brute force (neither clocking in as optimal strategies).

Avoid too much monster optimization, as well, until you get the hang of it. Nothing makes those ogres worse than longspears, Shock Trooper, and favorable terrain; you can pretty much engineer an unintentional TPK quite easily by just throwing together some unexpected synergy and not realizing it until it hits the table, and it's too late.

[Necroticplague]

Except it doesn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

I thought every doubling of creatures was a +2 CR without a cap, meaning that a CR 20 encounter could consist of (rounding goblins CR down to 0 for purposes of my laziness) 1024 Goblins.

[Kelb_Panthera]

2.Weighs amount by too much. Simply pt, the way the CR system works makes it so that large amounts of weak creatures are supposedely equal to one strong creature. Except for the fact that, often, if the component creatures are too weak, even an infinite amount would be a trivial threat. There's no amount of level1 goblin warriors that could threaten a level 20 character, even if the CR system says there is an amount (albiet, a very large one).

This is not -entirely- true.

There's a sweet spot where the enemies are both weak enough to bowl right over them and few enough they can't overwhelm the PC's with sheer numbers but a handful of enemies a few CR's lower than the party's level makes a solid challenge and a massive pile of (figuratively) tiny mooks will still be dangerous because if you throw enough attacks at a target some of them -will- get through.

This, of course, assumes the players don't do something silly like making themselves outright immune to most attacks ala tippy wizards.

[Karnith]

I thought every doubling of creatures was a +2 CR without a cap, meaning that a CR 20 encounter could consist of (rounding goblins CR down to 0 for purposes of my laziness) 1024 Goblins.
While you could do that, the DMG (p. 49) explicitly recommends against using more than a dozen weaker creatures for an encounter, because they would individually be so weak. So they at least had some idea of how silly extrapolating that could get.

[Chester]

It really depends on three factors:

Lots of text

In short, this is basically why CRs are sketchy since they're only an eyeball at best and in some situations (like the infernal hellbeast of a thousand wailing player characters: the damned crab) the CR simply isn't indicative of the trouble it can pose..

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. If you find that an encounter is easier than you thought, pump it up next time. If you overshoot and realize that you're unbalanced and just plain unfair, adjust the encounter as it occurs.

CR is all over the place. An Allip (CR 3, I think) vs. a group of players without the appropriate weapons / spells can easily mess them up.

[Lightlawbliss]

I like to occasionally throw massive hoards of week stuff at my players. It rewards those who actually pack area damage and lets those who built for lots of kills in small time to use that aspect of their character.

Edit: I have found that about 2 CRs above the players is the sweet spot for my groups with the hoard of week stuff. Yes, that is 2x the stuff they would have fought at CR. Your results may be different.

[Zombimode]

I thought every doubling of creatures was a +2 CR without a cap, meaning that a CR 20 encounter could consist of (rounding goblins CR down to 0 for purposes of my laziness) 1024 Goblins.

You are probably confusing CR with EL. It is true that EL increases the way you described. But exp rewards are based on CR. Table 2-6 (p. 38) in the DMG lists no exp rewards for creatures with a CR of 8 lower then the character level. Instead you are referred to the ad-hoc exp rules.

[Kazyan]

1. Too much emphasis on numbers instead of utility. Simply put, in terms of "weight", the CR system likes to think "giant wall of HP and damage=high CR". That's why CR and size tend to trend in similar directions (which hilariously means touch AC trends downward as CR goes up). However, handy abilities with little means of protection are more relevant to how hard a challenge actually is. Incorporeal, ability damage, save-or-loses, no-save-just-loses, flight, perfect defenses, are all more relevant than simply "how big is this thing's numbers".

Maybe I don't know how to monster, but I find that big numbers are the most important part of a CR-appropriate encounter. Creatures with special tricks usually allow saves that get passed, are negated by that one player who takes Necropolitan, can't hit the character who pumped their AC, or otherwise just don't do anything to justify the fact that they have <40 HP against a group with party level 7.7, for example.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Swarm creature vs party without AoE is an automatic loss in many cases. How many wizards ban evocation?

Succubus in urban environment is an automatic loss unless you can detect her alternate form. The whole town is her ally, willingly or otherwise so you either flee, or you got to kill lots of innocents thus lose again.

Devil archers at night. Have fun trying to hit the square they're in if they're attacking from further away than your darkvision range.





Special abilities trump numbers any day if they're the right ones.

[ericgrau]

I think they provide a decent enough ballpark and most of it is online exaggeration.

I've looked at at few complaints of the extreme worst and the CRs actually seemed ok. You do have to adjust for optimization. I did notice that dragons are in fact 1 CR too low. They make up for the lower experience with extra treasure I suppose, but you don't want a dragon CR more than 2 higher than the unoptimized 4 man party level. And probably 1 higher or less. They seem to match each other well enough so over time you can gauge what the party can handle. At least in MM1. Be wary of 3.0 material or online articles; check those CRs carefully.

A lot of what I checked was based on direct damage, hit chance figures and looking at stats in general. A bit of optimization can do better, requiring you to raise the CR. That said I've seen some "optimization" traps like trying to save-or-die a high save, high SR, multiple immunities dragon BBEG. Does not work well. But assuming actual competence you can send out foes 1 or 2 CR higher against a more optimized party.

[Necroticplague]

Maybe I don't know how to monster, but I find that big numbers are the most important part of a CR-appropriate encounter. Creatures with special tricks usually allow saves that get passed, are negated by that one player who takes Necropolitan, can't hit the character who pumped their AC, or otherwise just don't do anything to justify the fact that they have <40 HP against a group with party level 7.7, for example.

Huh. I find that it tends to be the opposite. Good enough abilities can obviate the need for numbers entirely, just like casters that know what they're doing.

A CR3 Ghost could TPK a party by itself unless they have access to Force effects and See invisible, because it can possess the BSF from the safety of the Ethereal, use him till he's incapacitated, then repeat till everyone's either dead or immune for 24 hours. And they can wait those 24 hours easy.

A Drowned can kill the entire party just by sitting near them, and waiting till they drop dead. Oh sure, they can roll to survive, but it gets harder, and they roll a 1 eventually....

You do make a fair point about Necropolitan, but that's merely expressing a flaw in the system. In fact, Necropolitan actually MAKES my point. Those immunities are a special trick, just like BCF SLA's, incorporeal, displacement, ect. And its a useful trick, because it allows you to just say "no" to a lot of things. Just how the allip's incorporeal lets it just say "no" to all the tarrasque's attack.

Numbers are also easily rendering themselves pointless, since the PCs can easily pump up their own numbers to the point where things become binary, and then tricks are the ONLY thing that determine victory. Ubercharger combat:can I charge at it?Y=win, no=lose. Once you do that, the way the ubercharger gets more potent isn't by trying to up his numbers, its from expanding "can i charge at it" as far as possible. He'll pick up flight, grab Battle Jump, use a Ghost Touch weapon, look for sources of True Sight, find ways to move without using his move or standard. His numbers might not get any bigger, but he'll get far more powerful by increasing the size of his bag of tricks.

By the fact you haven't seen this, I assume that means your games are fairly low-op, correct?

[georgie_leech]

Huh. I find that it tends to be the opposite. Good enough abilities can obviate the need for numbers entirely, just like casters that know what they're doing.



This. For an extremely silly example, the Tarrasque, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) Colossal CR20 city destroyer, can't do a thing to this CR 3. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) It may take a while, but an allip can eventually permanently (barring restoration or the like) put the Tarrasque back to sleep, but with added nightmares.

[Necroticplague]

This. For an extremely silly example, the Tarrasque, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) Colossal CR20 city destroyer, can't do a thing to this CR 3. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) It may take a while, but an allip can eventually permanently (barring restoration or the like) put the Tarrasque back to sleep, but with added nightmares.

Funny enough, my original post (before I decided to make it more focused on PC interaction) actually used that same example.

[Strigon]

Well, this has all been quite informative!
What's the consensus on mohrgs? They have quite the nasty ability, but it does allow a fortitude save.

[Necroticplague]

Well, this has all been quite informative!
What's the consensus on mohrgs? They have quite the nasty ability, but it does allow a fortitude save.

Depends on how its used. If in front-lines against the fighter under normal lighting? Meh. At the level its an appropriate fight against, the fighter has about 45-30% chance of being effected each turn. So, assuming 3 round for an encounter, on average it'd use up the first two to paralyze the fighter, third to coup-de-grace him, then die.

However, that's now how it should be used. It looks like a skeleton to casual observation, so it can "hide" in plain sight in a tomb. It's darkvision means it can attack from concealment of darkness outside a light source range, and its sneaking skills are excellent. Thus, it's very good at sneaking up on the party. So here's how an encounter with it should go down:
1.Mohrg hides in unimportant corner, watching party through its darkvision, sometimes slowly creeping around if it thinks they're getting too close.
2.Waits until part arcanist is seperated from rest of the party, like when going around a corner.
3.Licks the suprised arcanist easily (who has a 60-80% chance of failing the save).
4. Drags the paralyzed arcanist off to coup-de grace them.
Bam. Pretty much guaranteed kill on one party member, and another will probably die in a later encounter with it. This scenario can also work similarly for rogues that go ahead to scout, or while they deal with traps. Paralysis is a great way to reinforce "don't split the party".

Of course, both scenarios assume a suicidal one that wants the party dead more than it wants to live, and thus coup-de-graces anyone they paralyze immediately. Of course, if the party can all fly, are incorporeal, or are immune to paralysis, its a joke.

[JackRackham]

"How broken are CRs?" Really, pretty broken, but not too broken to be useful. That's how I would put it.

[Kazyan]

By the fact you haven't seen this, I assume that means your games are fairly low-op, correct?

Current game is definitely closer to low-op, yes.

Flight doesn't work because the Ranger is an archer and the Druid exists. Illusions don't work because the party loses one or two of their turns figuring it out--but when the Beguiler does the same thing in reverse, the monsters lose one or two turns, and monsters only get one or two per round to the party's four. The group ran into a Formian Taskmaster yesterday and his domination ability never came into effect; he wasted his first turn trying to dominate an illusion, succeeded on a party member on his second turn, but then got killed before that party member's turn could come up. The invisible Pixie trying to harass the group just got noticed via +20 Spot modifier followed by See Invisibility, and one thrown net later, it was over. Creatures immune to mind-affecting are nice, but everything seems to make its save against the Beguiler anyway so it's just an academic exercise. Poison with ability damage isn't doing anything, because it's mostly the Druid and her animal companion taking it, and the relevant Fort saves are high. I tried an Ogre Mage, but Stay the Hand stopped his Cone of Cold and then he got knocked out on the first turn before he could do anything else.

But a Huge Water Elemental with a Nixie Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7 wearing it as a Haste-able "power armor"? The fight took like 3 hours, most of the Beguiler and Druid's spells, all but one of the Knight's Challenges from the Knight (dumped into a magic shield that gave Fast Healing 5 from expending one), and made the Ranger use several animals from his Tan Bag of Tricks. Haste was great and all, but 2d10+7 damage with +17 to hit and Power Attack? That was doing the real work. It went roughly as how I expected, considering that the group at level 5 ran into what was basically a Large Fire Elemental and were absolutely hopeless against its DR 5/--, which I do not consider a special ability.

Maybe it's not that special abilities aren't working in my game, but maybe it's that they're only working in the PCs' hands due to their action economy.

[Aegis013]

Maybe it's not that special abilities aren't working in my game, but maybe it's that they're only working in the PCs' hands due to their action economy.

Action economy is definitely a factor. However, it's also important to realize that not all special abilities are equal. Some just aren't as good as others, and often times how overwhelming or underwhelming they are depends on the party they're placed against.

The Pixie's Invisibility is pretty nice, but change that to Incorporeal and it's a whole new ball game, for example. Switch up its feats to play to its new strengths and it can do things like pop out of a wall, attack or maybe cast a spell, then retreat into the wall to hide, making it not merely a nuisance, but extremely difficult to deal with. If your party, however, has a Psion with Burrowing Power or the like, suddenly that extremely difficult monster is just a moderately annoying monster.

[atemu1234]

An old favorite of mine is a Drow Ranger riding a black dragon, both with at home in the deep. Usually I try to make it CR 15, but who takes blindfight?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Action economy is easily one of the biggest factors in the challenge offered by an enemy or group of enemies. With the notable exception of true dragons, which are practically an opposed party rolled into one creature, a single strong foe will almost always offer a lesser challenge than several somewhat weaker monsters.

If you've just -got- to have that final big boss fight with a single powerful enemy, drop it by 1 CR and throw in a couple of much weaker mooks to balance the action economy a little and see if those fights don't become a -lot- more epic.

[Strigon]

Depends on how its used. If in front-lines against the fighter under normal lighting? Meh. At the level its an appropriate fight against, the fighter has about 45-30% chance of being effected each turn. So, assuming 3 round for an encounter, on average it'd use up the first two to paralyze the fighter, third to coup-de-grace him, then die.

Dark, cramped passages.
I based the idea a little bit off of Alien; it's in its element, hunting them down from the shadows. They have to either escape or kill it (they'll be in, essentially, a small town sewer system.)

Also, if it has any affect, these passages will be flooded.