Core druid: augment summoning, worth two feats?

[Hiro Quester]

About to start playing a forest gnome Druid in a mostly core game.

All the advice says a druid should take augment summoning. I'm not sure it's worth two feats though. (Prerequisite of spell focus: conjuration.). I'm a gnome so that means that for the first few levels my only feat is a basically useless one.

We are probably going to have at least one regular fighter, and a knight occasionally playing. Using summoned creatures as temporary tanks might not be needed. They could still be flankers to give the rogue bonuses, targets to lure attacks from PCs etc.

Summoned creatures having a few extra hit points and +2 to attack and damage doesn't seem two feats worth of usefulness.

At low levels they don't stick around very long, either. Round/level. meh.

I'm thinking that non-augmented summoned creatures will be okay and those two feats could be better spent elsewhere, to improve animal companion or wildshaping or spell casting. E.g. Extend spell, improved initiative, companion spellbound, improved natural attack, multi-attack.

I know that creature summoning can scale rather powerfully at higher levels. But will these feats also scale? It doesn't seem so.

Am I missing something about how awesome and/or necessary it is?

[Lokd0wn]

In a core only game there isn't all that much competition for feats for a druid except the obligatory Natural Spell at level 6. Improved Initiative and Extend Spell are the only other decent low level choices. Once you get out of core there's plenty of better options like the ones you mentioned. Also bear in mind that the stock of SF: Conjuration goes up if you have access to the Spell Compendium.

[eggynack]

Really depends on how mostly core you are. If you're in pure core, then definitely. Most of those core feats you listed aren't particularly important, and I'd probably avoid everything but extend and maybe improved initiative for the most part. Or, y'know, I wouldn't, because there's more feat slots than that. After natural spell, augment summoning is probably the best core druid feat, obviously after natural spell and that remains approximately true even with the extra feat cost.

When you move out of core though, things get more complicated. There are much better feats than augment summoning out there, even if you don't factor in the feat cost. Anything in between completely core and everything allowed falls between those two points, between must take and relatively low power. Augment summoning can't compete with greenbound summoning, or aberration wild shape at all, to any extent, but it might be able to compete reasonably with companion spellbond. It's not a must take if all other options are at that level though. Just good.

Realistically though, in a core game, this particular issue isn't particularly important. Natural spell is a must take feat, because it's amazing, but everything else mostly comes in the form of marginal bonuses to the druid's awesomeness. A core druid with nothing but natural spell and a bunch of skill focuses wouldn't be too far behind the core druid with perfectly optimal feat selection, even though feat selection makes a huge difference out of core.

[Hiro Quester]

So far, and for the first few levels, we will be sticking with the PH, and PHII, DMG, DMGII, and Stormwrack. And MM. Some non-core options, but not the obviously awesome ones.

I get that druid is an awesome choice for a core game. It gets exponentially better as you advance.

But at lower levels? What makes it more fun to play, more useful to the party, and more likely to survive?

Which of augment summoning vs. regular summoning with extend spell for buffs, would be more useful at lower levels?

Extend spells seem very useful at lower and higher levels. Double duration scales very very well.

I'm leaning towards taking extend first.

Can anyone talk me into taking SF and Augment Summoning for the first two feats?

At third level, is summoning and hurling at the bad guys three wolves, as opposed to three augmented wolves, that much better?

If I didn't take it now, I wouldn't have it until the 9th level feat. If ever. (Natural spell at 6th, natch.)

[eggynack]

The issue with using extend spell is that it increases spell level by one, which at least halves the power level of said spells (because you could just 1d3 the thing). If you want the effect, you should probably just pick up the relevant metamagic rods, because they're pretty cheap and powerful. And yes, I likely would pick up augment in a game with a selection that limited.

[emeraldstreak]

Natural spell is the only must have in Core, and RAW Greenbound Summoning the only must have in the non-core.

[eggynack]

Natural spell is the only must have in Core, and RAW Greenbound Summoning the only must have in the non-core.
I disagree very much on the latter count. I'm not really sure how "must have" is being defined, but when you gain the ability to pick it up, I'd put aberration wild shape as powerful as greenbound summoning. Rashemi elemental summoning is also comparable, better at later levels where greenbound is better at earlier levels, and dragon wild shape is very good as well.

[Invader]

That mostly depends on how much you think you're going to be summoning animals. Even just in core there's enough decent choices to pick if you're not going to be using SNA that often. Take improved initiative at first and extend spell at third and never look back.

[Invader]

I disagree very much on the latter count. I'm not really sure how "must have" is being defined, but when you gain the ability to pick it up, I'd put aberration wild shape as powerful as greenbound summoning. Rashemi elemental summoning is also comparable, better at later levels where greenbound is better at earlier levels, and dragon wild shape is very good as well.

Also unless you're playing in a fairly high op game, Greenbound summoning can ruin things for a dm pretty easily. It really is one of the more broken feats, it's kind of like saying planar shepherd is a must have PrC.

[eggynack]

Also unless you're playing in a fairly high op game, Greenbound summoning can ruin things for a dm pretty easily. It really is one of the more broken feats, it's kind of like saying planar shepherd is a must have PrC.
True. It all really depends on how we're defining must have, because it's a bit of a nebulous term. Even natural spell isn't strictly necessary for a druid to be game destroying, after all. It just helps a whole heck of a lot.

[Troacctid]

Also, it's kind of a pain in the ass to apply the template to everything. It adds like a bazillion different abilities that you have to remember. Summoning has enough bookkeeping as it is.

[eggynack]

Also, it's kind of a pain in the ass to apply the template to everything. It adds like a bazillion different abilities that you have to remember. Summoning has enough bookkeeping as it is.
That part gets a bit easier when you get used to it. In particular, most of the little abilities don't actually vary based on the creature, so you can just copy an old greenbound sheet and make adjustments to that instead of writing up all of the fiddly abilities every time.

[Phelix-Mu]

I usually go with SF: Conjuration and Augment Summoning. It's a decent combo, always drops for one of the more useful subsets of druid spells, and it's for spells that have built-in scaling. Even if the buffs aren't super-duper in the big scheme of things, they are definitely competitive inside core. Plus, core offers even less action economy exploitation, and this spell gets bodies on the field and drops a buff on them in the same action. That's pretty boss.

Add in niche benefits of SF: Conjuration and we're talking icing on the cake.

Plus, as has been noted here and elsewhere by many, you can take seven iterations of Skill Focus: Speak Language and still end up with a druid that lands in tier 1. And while you will be markedly less powerful than an all-sources druid, you won't be much less powerful than any other core druid (although no Natural Spell comes close to being "required," the truth is druid can still compete at most tables on the basis of its casting alone, let alone with Wild Shape and Animal Companion completing the trifecta).

[Elkad]

PH2 is open?
Companion Spellbond at 1st. Isn't even a contest for me.

[eggynack]

PH2 is open?
Companion Spellbond at 1st. Isn't even a contest for me.
It's certainly a reasonable choice. It just doesn't seem quite as good at lower levels, at least in a restricted access game, where you don't have that many spells to share. It's definitely a thing that should be picked up at some point. I just think that point might be 9th level.

[Phelix-Mu]

Companion Spellbond is definitely good, I just don't know where I would put it in the early levels. On a human or strongheart halfling, it fits in nicely at 1st or 3rd while still allowing Augment before Natural Spell, which is pretty much a fixed point unless a person has something very specific in mind for their druid that dictates otherwise.

Personally, first level is a level where many buffs aren't looking that stellar yet, so much of the sharing with an AC isn't going to be terribly impressive. That said, it certainly delivers a quicker bang-for-buck than SF: Conjuration on races that can't get the Augment Summoning in at first (or games without flaws). So maybe a good choice.

Ultimately, though, it's about how the character is going to use the AC. Not everyone runs it the same, and, to me, it's an area of personal freedom, as I know I can phone-in the AC and still end up with an effective character. So AC for flavor reasons, and maybe not sink so many resources into it. Others will obviously approach it many different ways, of course, all equally valid.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks everyone.

So it's a choice between companion Spellbond and extend spell, vs. SF and augment summoning for first and third.

I guess it's going to depend on the final composition of the party (do we need more meat shields?). And on my druid's role.

I'm playing an exceptionally squish 2ft tall forest gnome. So a well augmented AC (riding dog, of course) matters a lot. H's always there, where augmented animals are not.

And looking at the spell list, there are plenty of other useful things to do in the first rounds of an encounter besides summon. Entangle. Faerie fire+ obscuring mist. Etc.

But Phelix Mu has made a good case for the benefits of augment summoning. Having them arrive pre-buffed is something. And increasing the saving throw of fire seeds, storm of vengeance etc. is not nothing.

Still thinking.

[Phelix-Mu]

Are you planning on being mounted for the first few levels? If so, I'd delay the Companion Spellbond until after Wild Shape, since you will likely be able to cast touch spells and share spells with it as per the normal AC abilities. If not, then the stock of Companion Spellbond goes up quite a bit.

Also, AC for meatshield instead of summoning is less paperwork, which can be a hassle what with all the different summons that are out there. But you can do both, ofc, and it will substantially improve the safety of the AC if he has some expendable mooks with which to split the damage.

[Hiro Quester]

I will be riding most of the time. That does make a diff.

Okay, I'll probably try the summoning route. It is a powerful ability.

But a lot will depend on how that fits with the rest of the party. And we could occasionally have a large-ish party, so summoned creatures might just get in the way and slow down gameplay.

I'll talk to the DM about the possibility of retraining that feat if it turns out that summoned creatures will get in the way.

[StreamOfTheSky]

In core, also don't forget Flyby Attack, and possibly Hover. Improved Natural Attack can also be worth it sometimes. Ability Focus is good if you have a save-based Ex or Su attack, though I don't know any of great use a core wildshaping druid would have. Monster Manual is core, too.

Of course, all of these are post-wild shape feats, after Natural Spell. Before then, you have the options listed. Augment (and its pre-req), Imp. Init, Extend Spell, (much later on) Quicken Spell, and...that's about it.

[eggynack]

In core, also don't forget Flyby Attack, and possibly Hover. Improved Natural Attack can also be worth it sometimes. Ability Focus is good if you have a save-based Ex or Su attack, though I don't know any of great use a core wildshaping druid would have. Monster Manual is core, too.

Those are alright, though they seem a bit marginal. I would definitely tend away from hover in particular, as you're only picking it up at 9th, and at that point you already have dire bat as the likely optimal form, which gets it for free, and the marginal damage boost on INA feels like it should be rather low on the druid list of priorities. Flyby attack is quite useful, but its value is a bit questionable when you're working with flying forms which tend away from attacking as a general rule. Ultimately, your list in the next section of your post already has five feats on it, then you add companion spellbond to get to six, and you just need to add something like, I dunno, a crafting feat or spell penetration, and you have a build.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Flyby attack is quite useful, but its value is a bit questionable when you're working with flying forms which tend away from attacking as a general rule. Ultimately, your list in the next section of your post already has five feats on it, then you add companion spellbond to get to six, and you just need to add something like, I dunno, a crafting feat or spell penetration, and you have a build.

Psst...don't let the name fool you. The best use of Flyby "Attack" is actually to use a spell and move before and after. Since it allows *any* standard action between your move action. If you're a druid and you're using Flyby Attack to melee attack, you're doing it wrong (especially since Tumble is cross-class so you're opening yourself up to AoOs for no good reason). :smallwink:

And the OP said core, PHB2 isn't core. If other stuff is allowed, things change dramatically...

[eggynack]

Psst...don't let the name fool you. The best use of Flyby "Attack" is actually to use a spell and move before and after. Since it allows *any* standard action between your move action. If you're a druid and you're using Flyby Attack to melee attack, you're doing it wrong (especially since Tumble is cross-class so you're opening yourself up to AoOs for no good reason). :smallwink:
Very true, though using a spell in the middle of a move isn't quite as interesting as using an attack, as attacks are more locationally restricted.


And the OP said core, PHB2 isn't core. If other stuff is allowed, things change dramatically...
The book list, as noted in the 4th book, is apparently "PH, and PHII, DMG, DMGII, and Stormwrack And MM". To my knowledge, that pretty much just means companion spellbond where feats are concerned, though there could be other things of interest.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's still a lot of close range spells that are nice to skirmish with and end up still too high up for enemies to have a chance at harming you. Then there's use of cover/environment/wall spells to pop out from. Heck, it's taboo, but some people do heal in combat, and most of them are touch-range, so being able to get in and back out of melee range to help out the tank is handy, too.

I think Flyby should be every core-only Druid's 9th level feat...

[Kraken]

Like illusion creativity, flyby attack creativity with spellcasting/skirmishing are one of the easiest ways to make your DM's head explode by making you difficult to target. I too recommend it.

[Hiro Quester]

I had not considered the awesome utility of flyby attack. I can see so many opportunities to use that in the ways you have mentioned, Stream.

There are many close range spells and touch spells that could be very useful to use in a flyby attack. That's a serious candidate for the 9th level feat.

In fact, with that kind of flyby shenanigans, and wanting to augment wildshape, plus metamagics like extend, quicken, I'm thinking there's not enough room in the build for augment summoning.

Some feat to augment wildshape would be good. Multiattack, perhaps? Is there a feat equivalent of wilding clasps (which are not in our books)?

Extend and Spellbond familiar might be the way to go before Natural Spell, then flyby, multiattack, quicken and other metamagics to finish off.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Some feat to augment wildshape would be good. Multiattack, perhaps? Is there a feat equivalent of wilding clasps (which are not in our books)?

Multiattack is good, often better than INA, I totally should have remembered it.

As for the wilding clasp thing...no. Unless you consider "Vow of Poverty so you no longer even wear magic items" to be a feat solution. if it is mostly a core game, ask the DM if you can just ignore the stupid post-core "polymorph houserules" -- which screwed over Wild Shape by making it based off Alternate Form but didn't even touch the actual polymorph spells! -- they cause all sorts of annoying headaches for wild shape that don't make it more balanced, just more irritating. Most notably the fact that wild shaping leaves you naked (not an issue as an animal, kinda an issue if you get humanoid or such forms via non-core options). Specifically, ask to just let stuff the new form can wear to not meld and remain functional, like the polymorph spells, which Wild Shape in the actual PHB is based upon. If he says no, then I'd suggest giving up on using wild shape for infiltration or in-combat on the spot problem solving and treat it solely as a "pre-buff" you do in advance. Remove all your magic gear you'll be able to wear in the new form, wild shape, then have the party dress you again. Maybe after a while the DM will realize how dumb that is and relent.