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jjpickar
2007-03-19, 04:05 PM
A few questions from the uninitiated.

How does GURPS work?

I've thought about dabbling in it just for a change of pace from D20 but there are a ton of GURPS books and I don't know which ones to buy. What are the Core books if there are any.

Also, what makes it different from the D20 system?

Probably the most important, is it worth it?

marjan
2007-03-19, 04:29 PM
As for core books I'm not sure.
GURPS works something like "real" life meaning that if you do things like in D&D (called quests) you will make couple of characters per session. I haven't played GURPS much but in my limited experience every time your GM says "And the battle begins" you start thinking about your new character.
The difference with D&D is that it is skill based system. For everything you have skills. For example if you would like to cast something like Summon Monster spell in D&D you would have to invest in the skill Conjuration and then invest in its subskill Summon Monster. The success with skills is determined not just by beating DC but how much did you beat it. Every skill can auto-fail(1 in 18) and auto-succed (1 in 18) no metter how good you are or how high DC is, which can screw over plans that depends on something minor succeding.
Is it worth it? IMO it isn't, mainly because I don't like playing average characters, which most of GURPS characters are (above average are something like one-use people - "I cook the best meals but I don't have clue how to tie my shoes"), but it more real then D&D so if you like that it may be worth it.
Rules are more complicated then in D&D and I don't like going through rulebooks every 5 mins.

Anyway I have limited experience with GURPS and those are my thoughts. Maybe I would like it more if I played it longer (or before D&D).

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 04:30 PM
my books are out of date by one revision or so, mostly 2nd - 3rd revision, and the version numbering at that point was not consistent iirc.

GURPS is a point based system; you don't roll anywhere in the character generation process. Creation is buying your attributes, advatanges and skills, as well as disadvantages/quirks, then buying starting gear.

Attributes are very simple: Strength, Dexterity, IQ, and Health. Skills are mostly based off of DX (physical skills) and IQ (mental skills, Psionic skills, Spells, etc). increasing you attributes costs points

Advantages cost points and disadvantages (and quirks) give you points. Psionic powers are advantages, but the skill to use them are skills

Spells are individual skills; you can be much better at creating a fireball than picking a lock by magic. You can have a mostly melee character with only a couple of spells, but it is very expensive pointwise to be good at both so most people won't be focusing on both.

There are no classes, though you can build templates if you'd like; for example, a member of the Knights Templar would have some specific advantages such as a minimum status (nobility), reputation, clerical investment, as well as specific skills: Riding, lance, sword, probably savior-faire, area-knowledge, maybe heraldry, etc (sorry,that's from memory).

hitpoints are low, and combat can be very deadly.

you can glance through GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/) to get a very basic set of rules

what you'll need to start up 4th edition GURPS:
-GURPS Basic set: Characters
-GURPS Basic set: Campaigns

Anything beyond this is optional, but really it helps to have the Genre/world books. I'd pick up at least a couple depending on what sort of campaign you want. They have a gazillion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GURPS_books), especially if you pick up the 3rd edition stuff which is mostly compatible.

Want a fantasy campaign for example? Pick up fantasy, magic, and Banestorm (setting in the world of Yrth). None of them are required but having them does give you more options.

jjpickar
2007-03-19, 04:35 PM
Any more specific books that help?

Bouldering Jove
2007-03-19, 04:41 PM
GURPS attempts to be "generic" and "universal" by incorporating endless new rules for every possibility. The system's fundamentals work pretty well for a realistic setting, but I wouldn't recommend using its supplements for anything but ideas. Science fiction oriented RPGs handle science fiction better than GURPS, fantasy oriented RPGs handle fantasy better than GURPS... You could say it's the bard of roleplaying systems.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 04:41 PM
Just a couple of notes:

Every skill can auto-fail(1 in 18) and auto-succed (1 in 18) no metter how good you are or how high DC is, which can screw over plans that depends on something minor succeding.Autofail is 1 in 216 though for most things, not 1 in 18.

Rolling is with 3d6, and Autofail is on an 18, or 10 higher than your skill whichever is lower (so if your skill is a 7, you autofail on a 17 as well and skill of 6 autofails on a 16, etc); autofail is also lower for specific things, such as making magic items: a 16+ always fails, and an 18 is a critical failure that can have dire consequences.


Is it worth it? IMO it isn't, mainly because I don't like playing average characters, If you want more special characters, you can always use the Cinematic rules, where you get extra actions, start with more points and can use leftover points on certain heroic actions, special rules for fencing and martial arts, etc... or a Supers campaign...

And starting points of 100 is just a guideline, not a hard and fast rule, even if you play mostly with the standard rules.

I agree though, even at that point it's going to be more real than D&D, and death is always a real danger, even to veteran characters. For some people that's a negative, and for others that a positive, so take it however you will.


Any more specific books that help?it's hard to answer that unless I know the general direction on the campaign.

jjpickar
2007-03-19, 04:45 PM
How does it compare to 3.5 D&D? Not in just a fantasy setting but its handling of mechanics in general.



Oh, and thanks to y'all for the responses.

Deepblue706
2007-03-19, 04:53 PM
Is it worth it? IMO it isn't, mainly because I don't like playing average characters, which most of GURPS characters are (above average are something like one-use people - "I cook the best meals but I don't have clue how to tie my shoes"), but it more real then D&D so if you like that it may be worth it.

GMs can set any point value for character creation. GURPS stands for Generic Universal Role Playing System. You can be an average joe, or you can play as Batman. It supports just about any kind of setting and power level.

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The game's rules tend to make more sense than those found in D&D - for instance, if you want a History skill, you need to specify what history. If Earth based, this'd mean Ancient Egyptian would be a different skill than Renaissance-Era Italy. You could know a lot about one thing, and nothing about another, and actually know when you do and when you don't. In D&D, you kinda just roll and say "Oh, yeah, I remember now. I know that."

@ jjpickar: I'd say GURPS is a far superior system to D&D. But, a lot more people play D&D - so therefore, I do too.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 05:02 PM
It's not an easy comparison; they are very different RPG systems.

You have more choice of the detail level I think, as in, how real of a game are you playing, and how complicated the rules are.

Combat is played out in turns; turns last one second. in that time you can move, or do a step and <Action>, or do a multi-turn action (ie, cast spells that take more than 1 second cast time)

There's no armor class; players can use active defenses (dodge, parry); armor acts as a passive defense and gives damage resistance.

players are generally much more cautious than they are in D&D, since characters are general much more mortal in GURPS.

The magic system is completely different; it's not Vancian at all. Wizards know their spells (they're each individual skills), they know some spells better than others. You specialize by learning more spells of a particular college, though I think there are actual specialization rules. Wizards command power, but they risk themselves every time they cast a spell because a critical failure on a spell is a very bad thing. Casting spells uses fatigue (based on str) or the mage can use their hp actually harming themselves while they cast.

There are also variant magic system rules in the magic book.

There are no classes or levels; character advancement is through gaining more points as you adventure (typically 1-5 or so per session depending on the campaign and other factors)

Deepblue706
2007-03-19, 05:07 PM
No, no, Fatigue is based on Health. HP is based on Strength.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 05:11 PM
No, no, Fatigue is based on Health. HP is based on Strength.odd... looks like that changed from 2nd/3rd to 4th edition. Previous editions had that reversed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS#Mechanics_of_the_game)

I may eventually pick up and convert to 4th edition, if I can get another group together regularly, but I've been too busy to run a campaign for a while.

Laesin
2007-03-19, 05:12 PM
The core books for 4th ed are GURPS Basic Set:Characters and GURPS Basic Set:Campaigns. There are several supplements. If you want to play in a fantasy setting you will likely find GURPS:Fantasy, GURPS:Magic and GURPS:Banestorm helpful. It allows much more flexibility in character creation than D20 but a certain degree of specialisation is needed for a character to be useful.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 05:19 PM
By the way, if you just want to check it out, you can just download GURPS Lite (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004) and the Caravan to Ein Arris (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0031) adventure and give it a go; they're both free downloads from SJ games.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-19, 06:38 PM
Power level of campaign is not only determined by how many starting character points, but how many are gained during the course of game play. If you typically get about one character point per game, then the characters will evolve slowly. If you get like 5+ character points per game, they will gain in power fairly quickly. This, more than starting costs, will determine the eventual power level of the game.

Wizards are just as broken in GURPS 3rd ed (haven't played 4th) as they are in 3.5, if not more so.

To give an example:

You have an Elf with stats Str:9 (0), Dex 12 (10), Int 15 (45), Health: 10, with the advantages of Elf (40) and Magery 3 (20). This is a total of 125 points. In a campaign with 100 character points, and 50 in disads and quirks, you have another 25 points left to play with for spells. In a 150 campaign, you've got another 25 points before going into disads. In a 200 campaign, you've got 75 before you need to worry about it.

Right, so how far will your points go to spells?

Well, first off, let's look at your effective skill for spells. You add your magery to your Int score, so that's a 17 you're using to buy spells with. Most spells are (M/H) and the rest are (M/VH). For 1 point, you can get Int-2 on a M/H skill. So even in a 100 point campaign, if you max your disads/quirks, you can get up to 25 spells. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to spend 1/2 points on spells, or you'd be able to get up to 50 spells at skill 14.

Or, if you'd rather, you can specialize in a college, and get all the prereqs for an 'uber spell' and do insane things with that spell. With an effective Int of 17, you'd need Int + 4 to get a 21 skill on a spell to cut time in half (round DOWN, yes you can get spells with zero casting time, although you are only allowed to cast one spell per turn), this costs 12 points.

So, let's look at a sample mage, shall we?

This guy is a mage who gets into melee (since armor doesn't affect spellcasting in the slightest in GURPS). He picks up Quarterstaff at Dex (4), then grabs Itch, Spasm, Pain, Stun, Light, Continual Light, Strike Blind, Paralyze Limb, Wither Limb, then grabs Deathtouch at 21 for the last 12 points.

He has some utility, with Light he is the party's torch, since he can make individual Light spells at no fatigue cost to cast or maintain. He can force opponents to make a Health check or be stunned, which will automatically cause spells to fail, which is nasty against caster types with low health. He can also make someone go blind if they fail a health check. But his capstone ability is Deathtouch. Every round, for free, he can make a touch attack to deal 2d6 damage. If he can get a Staff enchantment on his staff, he can swing his staff to do base damage plus 2d6 which ignores armor DR. Consider that you have exactly as many hit points as you have HT, so in D&D terms, he's doing 2d6 CON damage (or Wound Points if you're familiar with Star Wars D20). If he wants to spend a single fatigue point, he can do 3d6 instead.

Let's talk defense. He's got Quarterstaff at 12, this gives him a Parry of 8 (since Quarterstaff gives him a 2/3 parry). This will be his primary active defense (obviously).

And this is only a 100 point character.

For a 150 point character, if you break out GURPS Martial Arts, you could throw in Weapon Master (Quarterstaff) for 20 points, and have another 30 to spend on spells. This gives him an extra attack and more damage done with his staff. Then he gets things like Recover ST, and a few spells for the prerequsites to get Enchant, and then Powerstone, for true Crack. You see... Enchantment in GURPS takes no xp, just money and time. This is a massive force multiplier.

Cybren
2007-03-19, 06:55 PM
odd... looks like that changed from 2nd/3rd to 4th edition. Previous editions had that reversed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS#Mechanics_of_the_game)

I may eventually pick up and convert to 4th edition, if I can get another group together regularly, but I've been too busy to run a campaign for a while.

which pretty much everyone hourse ruled to be HP-> STR and FP -> Health anyway. it made more sense and was more in line with reality.


Also:
wizards are broken in 4th edition only if you allow a mage character access to spells while not allowing a melee or other fighter access to equally cinematic or fantastical abilities.

CharPixie
2007-03-19, 08:43 PM
And Sneek's post demonstrates why I don't like GURPS; last time I created a character for it, I had to use Excel because the Skill/Attribute relationship is so complex.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 10:05 PM
The default is 100 points, 40 points of disadvantages, and 5 points of quirks, so you're 5 points over as is if you're looking at the default adventurer points. With that in mind, there are several flaws in that character design.

You've made a totally one-sided power wizard by taking 0 skills that aren't spells other than quarterstaff; in my experience, playing Johnny one-spell is going to hurt you because, unlike D&D, those skills are going to be called into play more often than the combat ability will. Just as an easy example, the Caravan to Ein Arris adventure has several places where you'll be penalized for not having the right skills that can include being lost in the desert, or losing possessions to a sandstorm, etc.

This wizard would speak elven, but not Anglish or Arabic (or any other languages), so they would have trouble just communicating with their party or any npcs that they encounter.

This wizard has no marketable skills other than as a torturer's assistant (he doesn't have the needed skills to be the actual interrogator) or adventurer, and certainly nothing that would justify another wizard having him as an apprentice. He doesn't have status or wealth to bully a wizard into training him or buying it. As a GM I would require him to either have some skills that he would be using to earn his keep from his wizard master, take an unusual background, or pay for spells as if self taught (double cost).

You cannot assume that a teacher is available that has a skill in a particular spell higher than 20; any spells higher than what the best teacher in the area has will have to be self taught, which means any further levels cost double points. So skilling up to the level 21 of death touch would cost double (4 points rather than 2).

If that mage uses death touch often, then they stand to lose quite a bit when they roll a critical failure... something that simply can't happen with a D&D wizard. Chances are good that he'll be hurt, or even killed by his own death touch; and death touch is not lily-white magic, so the "summon a demon who takes you back to hell with him" clause is a possibility.

as for the higher point characters: In yrth, and probably many other game worlds, you can't break out martial arts with an elf mage without an unusual background (~15 points)

So, drop the points spent on deathtouch to 4, which gets it at level 17, add in a language or 2 (~1 point) and a useful skill or 4 (~2 points) as an apprentice, and subtract out the 5 points extra points from disadvantages/quirks that you gave him and you still have a powerful fighting wizard, who can deal 1d6 extra damage with his staff if he takes a round off between strikes. A dangerous foe to be sure, but nothing compared to a D&D wizard, or even a D&D fighter for that matter.

Magic items don't cost xp per se... they do on the other hand take up tremendous amounts of time with most of them taking years in the making; Thulin (old dwarf lord in Yrth, the one who leads the group that are not in Zarak) has spent over a century working on a particular item. A wand that would cast the death touch spell that you mention would take a single mage 2500 days to make (nearly 7 years).

even making a powerstone, the easiest of items, isn't completely dependable; chances increase with each casting that you'll destroy it with a critical failure, and even more likely that you'll wind up with a Quirk that renders it of extremely limited use.


which pretty much everyone hourse ruled to be HP-> STR and FP -> Health anyway. it made more sense and was more in line with reality./shrug I didn't; we stuck to the rules as written or printed variations. I had never heard of switching them until yesterday. Though, to be honest I have only played it with a couple of groups.

Hades
2007-03-19, 10:35 PM
And Sneek's post demonstrates why I don't like GURPS; last time I created a character for it, I had to use Excel because the Skill/Attribute relationship is so complex.

I think one could say this of any system, all it requires is a bit of experience with it. I, personally, don't find the skill/attribute relationship particularly complex (each skill is based on an attribute that governs that specific type of skill), while I find some of the concepts of D&D mind boggling.

In any case, for the OP, I would strongly suggest at least giving the game a try, one of the main complaints seems to be that it is "too complex" but I find that this has a tendancy to just mean, "it doesn't tell me what to do enough". This is one reason why it really helps to have a GM who knows the system run new players through an adventure or two.

Also, for those who play and haven't used 4th edition yet, so far I have found it to be a solid update, many things feel more intuitive, and it seems as if they are trying to make everything hold together and be more internally consistent than it might have been in the past. Still gotta keep the squishie chars away from combat, tho.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-19, 10:45 PM
All point costs are book value as presented during character creation, it's only double cost for further increasing your skill, just like increasing stats after character generation is at double cost. So yea, gimme that 21 skill deathtouch back :P

And yes, this character is a johnny-one-spell. It was designed this way on purpose. Because 99% of all powergamers build characters exactly like this one: they are only good at combat, then rollplay through every situation. In effect, GURPS's main weakness is the point-jubbers will design characters which will beat anything and everything, and completely ignore Roleplay in favor of blowing sheet up. This is partially negated by the high death rate in GURPS (as I said, hit points = HT (or in 4th ed, apparently ST), so when you run up against something doing 2d6, it can kill you in a single hit.

And yes, you pretty much have to break out a calculator and spreadsheet program to design a GURPS character, and if you're building a Mage or Skillmonkey, it will take HOURS.

Here's another example of a 100 point powerbuild:

Str: 17 (60), Dex 12 (20), IQ 10, HT 10. Advantages: Dwarf (30), Improved Toughness 2 (25). This is a total of 135.

He gets Ax/Mace (P/A) at Dex for free, which is 2 points, he beefs this up to Dex+2 for 6 more for an Ax/Mace skill of 14. He grabs Shield at Dex+2 for 4 points (since it's P/E). This gives him a Block score of 7.

For equipment, he has a Pick for a weapon, which deals 3d6 Impaling (which means double damage once you get through the armor, but may get stuck, more on this later), a suit of Scale armor (PD 3 DR 4), and a Small Shield (because we don't want the -2 on attack rolls from a large shield).

So he has a total PD of 6 (3 from armor and 3 from shield) and a Block score of 13 (6 from PD and 7 from the skill of 14), and a total DR of 7 (4 from armor, 1 from Dwarf, and 2 from Natural Toughness 2). So anything swinging less than 1d6+1 he can pretty much ignore since they'll never affect him, and he's got a better than 50% chance of blocking any melee blow that is swung at him.

Now then, he can only swing once every other turn, and use his action to ready his pick on the following turn. Of course, with his high DR and Block rating, he'll probably be able to survive anything being swung at him. He deals 3d6 Impaling, which means once he blows through armor, all damage is doubled. So if he were to hit himself, he'd roll 3d6, subtract 7, then double the result. Needless to say, this is extremely lethal to himself as he only has 10 hit points (17 if you use the 4th ed version, wihch is in every way advantagous to him).

Oh yes, picks can get stuck. That means I have to make a Strength check to rip it out of my target, doing as much damage comming out as I do going in. So I have to roll less than a 17 on 3d6 to free my weapon and do damage in the process. For this character, that is more of a good thing than a bad thing.

Again, it's a Powergamer character, with absolutely zero RP ability, although he has some points left if he wants to go max disads. But just to show you how broken things can get...

Sardia
2007-03-19, 11:01 PM
In 4th edition at least, it's particularly useful if you absolutely, positively, have to have exactly the ability you want.
Whether perfect customization is a blessing or curse, well...

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 11:38 PM
Actually, in game worlds where magic is rare enough that teachers are not going to be available (say, present day earth for example), you either have to pay double, or pay for an unusual background.

So, certainly, have the 21 back; pay for a unusual background to have trained with someone who could train you to that point, and for learning magical skills at all without possessing any apprentice skills, no rank/status and no wealth; and remember you were off by 5 still counting on 50 points from disadvantages/quirks instead of 45.

I'm not saying that the build doesn't work; you can always gimp the character on some other facet to get that. I'm just saying that it's slightly exaggerated.

That 2nd build seems to invalidate the claim about how wizards are just as broken in gurps as they are in D&D; the caster is not significantly better than the melee character, and that remains the case even after character progression since deathtouch caps out at 3d6, no doubling.

Having a power build like this isn't as useful as you seem to be implying; if a character makes one, they're going to be at a total loss except when in combat, which in gurps tends to be much less than D&D (YMMV, but that's my experience). Like I said before, the sample adventure has several situations that capitalize on the weaknesses of one dimensional characters, and anytime people build those sort of characters those are sort of situations a GM should be introducing.

As a matter of fact, that's one of the advantages imo of gurps over D&D; In order to get a power build like that you really do need to make some real trade offs, while the power builds in D&D seem to be mostly rules cheese.

Besides, I don't find either of them as broken as casters in D&D can be; it just means that challenges to the party are not going to be straight up combat.

As for character gen: After I work out the character concept (which can take days) I can generate a mage or a skillmonkey in about 30 minutes; I often have to increase my starting age a tad to get all the skills I want. It just takes practice

I realize that this is tarting to get kind of off topic, but I think it's showing some good examples of the differences of GURPS and D&D.

marjan
2007-03-20, 02:51 AM
Jayabalard

Like I said my experience in GURPS is limited.
So far I am playing my first campaign and I played for three session in that campaign. We have 100 points to make our character and so far we didn't get any skill points and in words of my GM "You rarely get skill points" so my character is crap. And about auto-failure my GM also said that no matter what you aoto-fail on rolls of 17 and 18 (which is 1 in 18 if I'm doing my math correctly). So to conclude GURPS may be a good game but so far I don't see it that way, but as I said I am willing to give it a try.
And about character creation, it is complicated. In D&D it is much easier until you get into spells which very few new characters in D&D do, and still they are not crapy at all. In GURPS you have more skills then in D&D and it is very hard for new players to pick skills you like while still making your character effective.
Those are my experiences with GURPS and probably they are bad mostly because of GM.
Oh, and to jjpickar: You should try it. Maybe you'll like it maybe not.

joe
2007-03-20, 03:54 AM
I've only played GURPS a grand total of once, and though it sucked (on account of our DM) it seems like an overall good system.

However I would actually recommend besm to GURPS, because it's pretty much the same thing but without all the sourcebooks to read for your genre. Even if besm is intended for anime, it would work just as well for a non-anime based game. It's pretty much GURPS but simpler.

Granted I've only played besm once as well, so my opinion may be somewhat skewed, but as far as I could tell the mechanics were identical, and besm seemed a loss less complicated.

Drascin
2007-03-20, 05:45 AM
I've only played GURPS a grand total of once, and though it sucked (on account of our DM) it seems like an overall good system.

However I would actually recommend besm to GURPS, because it's pretty much the same thing but without all the sourcebooks to read for your genre. Even if besm is intended for anime, it would work just as well for a non-anime based game. It's pretty much GURPS but simpler.

And you don't even need the anime-centric BESM if you want a generic system (though BESM does rule. In which other game do you have detailed rules to create heavily armed, world-shattering mechas? :P). There's the base of BESM, a system called Tri-Stat dX, which is even free to download (http://www.guardiansorder.com/downloads/), so you don't need to spend any money on sourcebooks. And it's as simple as point-based systems get. Give it a try if you wish.

Jayabalard
2007-03-20, 08:11 AM
Jayabalard

Like I said my experience in GURPS is limited.
So far I am playing my first campaign and I played for three session in that campaign. We have 100 points to make our character and so far we didn't get any skill points and in words of my GM "You rarely get skill points" so my character is crap. And about auto-failure my GM also said that no matter what you aoto-fail on rolls of 17 and 18 (which is 1 in 18 if I'm doing my math correctly). So to conclude GURPS may be a good game but so far I don't see it that way, but as I said I am willing to give it a try.
And about character creation, it is complicated. In D&D it is much easier until you get into spells which very few new characters in D&D do, and still they are not crapy at all. In GURPS you have more skills then in D&D and it is very hard for new players to pick skills you like while still making your character effective.
Those are my experiences with GURPS and probably they are bad mostly because of GM.
Oh, and to jjpickar: You should try it. Maybe you'll like it maybe not.ouch... you should get some character points each session; 1-5 depending on how successful you were, possibly a bonus for good Roleplaying, bigger bonus for finishing out a story arc, etc. 1 point per session is still very slow progression, but it's enough to make you feel like you're going somewhere. Maybe even more in a cinematic or supers campaign.

auto fail on 17 or 18 is 1 in 54; maybe he was doing auto fail on a 16+, which is the case for magic which winds up as 1 in 18 or close to it; it's been a while but I only remember 18 being the always auto fail, (with specific skills skills that auto fail lower than that).

That failure chance (and the possible results from critical failure) is a big part of why I think the spell system in GURPS is a better balance than the D&D magic system even though a sufficiently skilled GURPS wizard can cast more spells in a day than a D&D wizard could dream of casting. You take a risk each time you cast a spell

PnP Fan
2007-03-20, 09:54 AM
I'd suggest giving it a try. Get the download that someone recommended above. My high school buddies and I played GURPs for years when 2nd ed came out. The big attraction for us was that, at the time, D&D only awarded xp for killing stuff, and not for RP. So if you played D&D, you pretty much only played a tactical game. GURPs is big on awarding RP, and story based achievements. No xp just for killing stuff, at all (unless that was the goal of the story!). At the time this was fairly innovative, now it's just part of most games.
Mechanically you will wind up with characters that are not as crazy powerful as D&D characters, but I think you'll wind up with characters that are a little better balanced against each other. I can't give you concrete examples (no books handy). What you will need to watch is that Players don't create their characters in a vacuum. You need to take an active role in helping the Players make their characters. That way folks with weird backgrounds pay for their weird backgrounds in a fashion that keeps them balanced with other characters (this is where the Unusual Background adv. comes in).
Can GURPs be abused? of course it can, any system can. but the active role that the GM takes during character creation can minimize that. Of course, that goes for D&D too.

silvermesh
2007-03-20, 10:40 AM
The problem most people have with GURPS is the same problem those people had when D&D 3.0 came out "it's all too overpowered" or "it's too easy to POWERGAME"

I'm sorry, but when everyone has the exact same power advantage, it is no longer an advantage. being able to customize your character as specialist or broad as you want, to me is not a drawback of a system, but a boon. The character that specializes this much isn't even useful in all COMBAT related situations. this is going to lead to serious problems if the party isn't quite diverse.

A system cannot be considered overpowered or too abuseable. you have to ask yourself overpowered... compared to what? it's not like the GM is going to be throwing monsters from other game systems at you, you have to fight things from the same system you were created in, and GURPS is a very harsh system, even if you think your character is a killing machine.

Cybren
2007-03-20, 09:10 PM
A system cannot be considered overpowered or too abuseable. you have to ask yourself overpowered... compared to what? it's not like the GM is going to be throwing monsters from other game systems at you, you have to fight things from the same system you were created in, and GURPS is a very harsh system, even if you think your character is a killing machine.
I think it'd be pretty easy to make a character that is invincible...

Mewtarthio
2007-03-20, 09:46 PM
I think it'd be pretty easy to make a character that is invincible...

How so? I've looked at GURPS Lite, and there may be an "Invincible" advantage in the real thing, but the best I can see you do is pour all your points into ST, which would just make you tough to kill. You'd still be worn out fairly quickly, and a few shots from a handgun would do you in easily.

Cybren
2007-03-20, 10:36 PM
How so? I've looked at GURPS Lite, and there may be an "Invincible" advantage in the real thing, but the best I can see you do is pour all your points into ST, which would just make you tough to kill. You'd still be worn out fairly quickly, and a few shots from a handgun would do you in easily.
There's a great degree of flexibility in GURPS character design. If the DM is doing a supers campaign, or something equally permissive there are an array of abilities at your disposal. Covering all your bases will be expensive. Doable but very expensive. I could do an example character but I doubt that there's that great an interest in gurps here

EvilElitest
2007-03-20, 11:13 PM
So what are the details of the pros and cons compared to D20. I'm really interested. Is the "Five Rings" Game Gurps?
from,
EE

Mewtarthio
2007-03-20, 11:52 PM
There's a great degree of flexibility in GURPS character design. If the DM is doing a supers campaign, or something equally permissive there are an array of abilities at your disposal. Covering all your bases will be expensive. Doable but very expensive. I could do an example character but I doubt that there's that great an interest in gurps here

No, really, I'm curious now. Go ahead.

Cybren
2007-03-21, 12:39 AM
No, really, I'm curious now. Go ahead.
I'll do it on a budget here.

Say you have a 150 point budget, -75 disad limit
ST-16 [60]; DX-12 [40]; HT-15 [50];
HP-20 [8]; Basic Speed-7 [5];

Combat Reflexes [15]
Hard to Kill-2 [4]
Hard to Subdue-2 [4]
Mind Shield-6 (Telepathic, -10%) [22]

[-75 from disadvantages, -5 from quirks, 22 in skills]

in combat you gain a good amount of lasting power. A dodge score of 11 (10 from basic speed, +1 from combat reflexes), which you can up to 14 when retreating. You'd be able to evade a good number of the attacks launched at you. On an all out defense you can add a further +2 to dodge, giving you a 17.

you can take a lot of damage. With your HP, hard to kill and hard to subdue it will take a long time to go down. Odds are you will be obliterated before you fail a roll.

Mind Shield 16 is your protection from mental or magical assaults. No point in being unstoppable if someone just mind controls you.

With more points you could take the Unkillable advantages (which range from letting you fight to the point where your body is no longer existant, or from letting you rematerialize every time you die.), Super Natural Durability, Damage Resistence, Regeneration, Resistant (which I would like to have incorporated. Immunity to Metabolic Hazards is only 30 points

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-21, 01:52 AM
The 'five rings' game... I think you are talking about the Legend of the Five Rings (or L5R for short), which is a completely different gaming system entirely.

To present a somewhat more balanced character:

ST: 9 (-10), DX 13 (30), IQ 13 (30) HT 10 (0). Advantages: Literacy (10). Total cost: 60. This gives him 40 points left over for skills before going into disadvantages.

Now then, with a Strength of 9, he's not going to be doing much damage in melee combat, but with his Dex of 13, he's going to have a better than average chance of hitting. With this in mind, he grabs Fencing (P/A) as his primary weapon skill and puts a whopping 8 points into it to get it at a skill of 15. This gives him a base Parry of 10, which will certainly come in handy to avoid getting hit. In case of emergencies, he also puts 2 points into Knife (P/E) to get it at 14 and 2 into Knife Throwing (P/E) for a 14 there as well for a ranged attack. That's a total of 12 points spent in weapon skills, around a quarter of the total skill points to spend so far. That should do him fine, let's move on, shall we?

Now then, he's probably going to want a decent Move score so he can get around quickly. Right now, he has (13+10)/4 = 5.75. Well, this isn't bad, but it isn't good either, let's see what we can do about it. Running is a Physical Hard skill, based off of Health. However, 1/8th of the skill goes straight to Move. Well, a skill of 8 would give a flat +1, but a skill of 10 would give a +1.25, to combine with the 5.75 to give an even 7. This sounds like a good deal, so for 4 points, he gets Run at 10. This gives him a Move and base Dodge score of 7, which can be a lifesaver.

Now then, let's look at how this fellow is developing. He's a puny thing, but slippery and fast. Sounds like he's got the makings of a man who lives by his wits rather than by the blade. However, Thief is just so... cliche. Let's just call him an 'Expert Treasure Hunter' for now, shall we?

Well, he's an independent sort, so he ought to be able to know how to keep his gear in order. So he grabs Armoury (TL 4, specializing in Hand Weapons), and Armoury (TL4 specializing in Armor) for 2 points each to get it at a base skill of 13. With his specialization, he can work with hand weapons, making and repairing, with an effective skill of 17(!) but all other Armoury (TL 4) only at an 11. Then, because he's going to keep himself to leather armor, he grabs leatherworking to make his leather armor look good. It's M/E so 2 points grabs it at 14, which should suffice for his needs. While he's shopping in the Craft Skills, he notes that a single point in Cooking will make his meals much easier to eat, and Jewler, while expensive, will be worth 4 points for a skill of 13 to tell the difference between diamonds and glass. Being the self-sufficent type, he grabs First Aid for two points to get it at a 14. Patching yourself up is always a good thing. He's spent a total of 11 in Craft and 4 from running for a total of 15, plus 12 in combat skills and 2 for first aid for a total of 29. 11 points before we get into disads...

Now then, this fellow is more urban than outdoors, so while these are very useful skills to have (and if it was a setting like the desert setting of the ready-made campaign included with the free 4th ed lite package), he'd probably spend 4 points in Survival (general terrain in the area)), he just doesn't have the points to spend much time here unless it's going to be needed in the campaign.

Now then, let's hit Social. I figure this guy is something of a scoundrel and a part-time Con-Artist. So first we grab Fast Talk for 6 points to get it at 15, since it's a bad skill to have fail on you. Merchant is good for anything from buying supplies at a reasonable rate to fencing of stolen goods. Well worth 4 points for a skill 14. This is another 10. Looks like he'll be dipping into disads since he's only got one point left and we haven't hit the thief/spy skills yet.

You know what they say, you can't Con a Con Man... well, he certainly doesn't want to get taken in anyways. Put 4 points in the Detet Lies (M/H) to get it at 13. Not bad, but not particularly good either. You can't fool him all the time, anyways. Holdout is going to be needed for a man of this person's talents, and like Fast Talk, it's embarassing to be caught at it, so he's going to want to be good at it. He winces as he spends 8 points to get it at 15, but at least hopefully he'll be able to beat a casual search. Lockpicking is going to have to be one of his better skills, so 6 points here gives him a 15 skill, not too shabby. Scrounging is also going to be handy, 2 points gives him a 14, and a decent chance of comming up with the means to survive another day. Shadowing is worth 4 points for a skill of 14. Slight of Hand is very useful, but very embarassing to be caught at. Unfortunately it's also very expensive point-wise since it's a P/H skill. He grins and bears it as he dumps another 8 points for a skill of 14. Stealth is going to be nearly a prerequsite for this guy, 4 points for a 14, and wishing he could afford to do more. Then he dips another 4 points into Streetwise 14 and 4 into Traps for a 14. This is a total of 44 points. This leaves him with -43 character points. Time to hit the Disads.

Okay, so let's look more at this character. He's clearly a step up from Street Rat, but his origins are more gutter than glamor. In particular, he sees himself as a self-made man, and inherently better than those stuck-up nobles born with a silver spoon in their mouth. This takes the form of Overconfidence (-10), Intolerant of aforementioned Nobles (-10, normally -5, however the class he is intolerant of is encountered frequently enough, and is far more powerful than he is, so the extra danger is worth an extra -5 since this plus his Overconfidence can get him into lethal trouble) and the Pirate's Code of Honor (-5). He also sees himself as a man of action, acting on flashes of inspiration, and in some cases desperation, rather than planning for extended periods of time (Impulsiveness -10). Since he's pulled himself up from the streets, he has no lineage, and as such is seen as a second-class citizen (-5). As far as quirks, he perfers to do his own cooking, he is proud of his self-made status (essencially a one-point Delusion: Self-Made people are better than those born to wealth), and he is a little frightened of magic, often times refusing to take on jobs which might encounter magic. Since this is a fantasy campaign, Magic is not terribally uncommon, but then, it's a fairly powerful force to be reckoned with too, so it's only a quirk.

So as a recap:

ST:9, DX 13, IQ 13, HT 10
Advantages: Literacy
Disadvantages: Intolerant (Upper Class Citizens), Impulsive, Overconfident, Code of Honor (Pirate), and Second-Class Citizen
Quirks: Perfers to cook his own meals, Self-Made people are better, minor phobia (Magic)
Move: 7, Dodge: 7, Parry 10 (rapier) or 7 (knife)
Skills: Fencing (15), Knife (14), Knife Throwing (14), Run (10), Armoury (TL 4 Weapons) 17, Armoury (TL 4 Armor), Leatherworking (14), Cooking (13), Jeweler (13), First Aid (14), Fast Talk (15), Merchant (14), Detect Lies (13), Holdout (15), Lockpicking (15), Scrounging (14), Shadowing (14), Slight of Hand (14), Stealth (14), Streetwise (14), Traps (14)

Now then, let's talk equipment.

He's an Armourer in both weapons and armor, and a leatherworker. This gives him an advantage here, because it means he can customise his own weapons. Between himself and the GM (and a few good Merchant and Armourer rolls), he managed to pick up an inexpensive used sabre from a pawn shop which caters to adventuresome sorts. With a successfull Fast Talk check, he managed to convince the salesman that the sword was cheap, worth 40% of the standard value, and started the haggling from there, ending up with a mere 35% of the book value of $700, rounded up to $250. Mind you, he had to spend a month repairing the blade, but hey... the steel was still sound. He then purchased the leather and made himself some Heavy Leather Armor, GM ruled that materials were half the book value, so he ends up paying $175 for it. Then he spends another $75 (and a few Leatherworking and Armoury checks) and a month in putting concealed pockets into the armor, with two concealed daggers, and pouches for small things like his Lockpicks, and possibly gems or coins. This gives him a further +3 to conceal anything up to dagger size on his person, up to ten items (or perhaps three to five gems per dagger sized object, or a handful of coins, GM's final say). It'll take him a full round to secrete the items into and out of the secret compartments, but hey... that's what Slight of Hand is for when under direct observation.

The PD 2 from his armor brings his Parry check up to a 12 and his Dodge up to a 9.

And so we have our plucky adventurer. He can swing a mean sword, and defend himself with it, although he's not what one would call a strong fighter, and he would do well to stay off the front line unless absolutely necessary, although he's got a better than even odds of being able to parry any melee swing, and just about even odds at dodging incomming missiles. He can patch up his buddies in an emergency and can cook a decent meal. He can also act as the 'party face', being the one to deal with the merchants in selling the swag, and general 'skillmonkey' status of being able to detect traps, pick locks, and in general be a contributing member to the party. His party would do well to encourage him to avoid higher class areas of town where he might be tempted to get himself into a LOT of trouble, and may have to skip town unexpectedly if he just couldn't help bringing some noble snot down a peg. However, on the road, he's fairly helpful and a nice chap to be around, so a party is more likely to put up with his anti-nobility attittude to be able to have someone who can reliabally keep them from getting killed in a dungeon.

Sardia
2007-03-21, 06:37 AM
I think it'd be pretty easy to make a character that is invincible...

Well, you can still be vinced, but since "Unkillable" is an advantage option, you could bounce back from it.

Dausuul
2007-03-21, 06:48 AM
So what are the details of the pros and cons compared to D20. I'm really interested. Is the "Five Rings" Game Gurps?
from,
EE

Okay, addressing the actual questions raised by the OP and reiterated by EvilElitest here, as opposed to the details of character builds...

As others have said, GURPS is a point-based, skill-based system; there are neither character classes nor character levels. What this means is that characters are much more "free-form." You can design your character more or less how you like, within the constraints of the number of character points your GM has handed out. To me, this is a major advantage compared to d20, since I always find the idea of character classes overly restrictive. On the other hand, it also makes it a lot easier to create totally ineffectual characters if you don't know what you're doing; and making a 100-point GURPS character (the default starting level) takes considerably longer than making a 1st-level D&D character.

Another plus of the character point system is that starting characters in GURPS can be a lot more flexible than in D&D. D&D starting characters tend to be very much one-trick ponies, and some of them remain so even at high levels. GURPS characters can easily branch out to have a little talent in a lot of areas, yet still hang onto enough character points to be good at their specialties.

GURPS is much more realistic than d20. Combat is brutal. The optional "cinematic" rules can mitigate this to some extent, but GURPS characters are still going to be a lot more reluctant to stride into battle than D&D characters. This may be a pro or a con depending on what sort of game you like to play.

GURPS also doesn't use the Vancian magic system. Wizards learn spells as skills and can cast them as long as their fatigue points hold out... which isn't usually very long. I strongly prefer the GURPS approach to magic over D&D, since it feels a lot more intuitive to me. It does encourage wizards with phenomenal stamina, however.

Because GURPS is designed to be universal, it can accommodate just about any type of game you care to run. You can easily mix-and-match the various settings and sourcebooks. d20 also allows this to some degree, but GURPS is specifically built for it and consequently does it much better.

The main drawback in my experience is that GURPS does not handle really high-powered campaigns (300-500 points) well; the mechanics start to break down when characters' skill levels get too high. However, this experience is based on Third Edition, and the problem may have been fixed in Fourth.

(And it's not like D&D handles the high levels well, either...)

silvermesh
2007-03-21, 09:53 AM
I think it'd be pretty easy to make a character that is invincible...
I'm sorry, but if you actually believe that you've probably never actually played GURPS.
I used to play a "semi-supers" fantasy campaign, where we used just about every splat book available, and usually had anywhere from 600-1400 starting points... compare this to the standard of "200" as high end "hero" level points in the core rules and you get the general idea of the power level we liked to play at. you can generally make your character quite tough, but invincible is not in the cards even with several thousand points. you can make your character immortal(doesn't age, etc), and he might be able to withstand bullets, and survive in a vaccuum, but damage resistance only goes up so far, and if youve got that many points to spend, your GM isn't going to be sending you up against 50 point humans... of course he could, and a lucky shot from one of them would still kill you. we played at this power level because we liked to play it a little more like D&D where you didn't necessarily have to roll a new character every combat. But that doesn't negate your ability to die.

JellyPooga
2007-03-21, 10:27 AM
I used to play a "semi-supers" fantasy campaign, where we used just about every splat book available, and usually had anywhere from 600-1400 starting points...

Geez...I've only played a couple of GURPS games (one rules tester, one actual, I DM'ed both), but...why?

That seems to me like playing Epic D&D games...a bit pointless. The characters are so incredibly hard/powerful/etc that there's very little in the way of opposition...and you call it 'semi-supers'? I'd call it 'mega-supers' myself. Even the comic book superheroes are only going to be in the 400-500 range...tops (for like Superman...Spiderman and Batman would probably be around 300-400, the Fantastic Four around 250-300 a piece). I've not actually worked these through, but off the top of my head, that's about what they'd be I reckon.

Sorry to rant, but it just struck me as rather incredible.

OT, I'd definitely recommend GURPS, but not for a Combat Oriented Fantasy game, like most D&D games you're likely to have played. The combat system does not lend itself well to fantasy/medieval combat. In a Combat Lite Fantasy Game, GURPS is fine (that's what I'm trying to DM at the mo, though it's been on hold for a bit), 'cos for roleplaying, it's great. I imagine that the combat system is good for modern and sci-fi games too (modern/sci-fi combat being a lot faster and involving less effort), so a Combat Heavy Sci-Fi game of GURPS would probably be quite good (I have a friend who's playing one and he hasn't complained yet).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-21, 01:05 PM
High-level wizards (200 points) are pretty much invincible. With that many points to play with, you can get an IQ of 16, and M3, for a total of 19 to learn skills with. This means you can actually have a character who has multiple spells ove skill 21, meaning reduce fatigure cost by 2 and cut casting time in half. As long as they have a Powerstone and high skill, they can pretty much keep chunking lethal spells around all battle long. Even without a Powerstone, if he has Recover Strength at skill 20 (not difficult with those base stats), he recovers a fatigue in two minutes of rest. Give him a half-hour, and he's back to chunking world-shattering spells again.

As lethal as GURPS is, there's an easy way to become invincible... it's called DR. Jack up your DR up over 18 or so, and it doesn't matter what they are, so long as they're doing less than 3d6, they literally cannot affect you except on a critical hit.

Fhaolan
2007-03-21, 01:19 PM
I've played GURPS a fair bit (albiet older editions than current). So I'll throw in my two cents.

GURPS is a good game if you want to model a setting precisely. However, there are several, significant drawbacks that prevent people from doing so:

1) Lethality: GURPS, on average, is a lethal game. It is far easier to kill characters, and no matter how powerful your warrior is ten NPCs with clubs are still a signifcant threat. The best defense in GURPS is to end the combat before you get hit.

2) GM Workload: Because it's 'generic' and completely custimizable, the GM has to put a lot more work into determining what options are available for characters, campaigns, etc. The GM has to act as a filter of all the GURPS material available, which is a significant extra workload. If they don't act as a filter, character creation (mentioned below) becomes either a random choice or an experienced-player-only thing.

3) Character Creation Time: Again, because of the number of options available for character creation, even if the GM filters all the options down, character creation is very complex and takes a fair amount of time relative to d20 systems. This can also create confusion because new players may have difficulty making decisions around what options to take.

EvilElitest
2007-03-21, 01:38 PM
So for Gurps Pros

Pros
Far more realistic than the D20 system when it comes to combat.
far easier to make orginal and classy characters.
Much (major empathis here) greater custom skills/abilties
Not very "Ding i grew a level, new stuff"
Very realistic battles (Death, damage, ect)
More forcues (mages forcus on one spell ect

Neutral (Depends on what you prefer)
No classes
Points system
Less combat orenteted
Vauge on setting
Die quickly

Cons (this is just what i gathered)
As yet (don't have any books) not details on races, culture, spells ect. One thing i like about D&D is the details of the culture.
Less orginized
As yet, no details about the worlds (though that is just me)
Not nearly as centered. Example, in D&D all the books are centered on the Player's Handbook, with the base classes, races, feats, ect all trace back to that.
Apperently easier to power game
I would imagine it would take ages to makes a character
Not at interconected as D&D (to my knowlage). Example, FR and Ebberon both have the same base races and classes, and they can be exchanged very eaisly. Correct me if i'm wrong
Requires good math skills, I don't like that as i am a bad at math
Complacated
To easy to make a bad character

I imagine about 50% of what is said is wrong, so please correct me.
Also two more points that is have that i know are wrong but i don't know the answer

1. Why would you not play D20
2. Can this be combinded with D20
Both questions i was asked when quested by players about Gurps so i wanted to know if anyone else knew. Also, what is Legend of the Five Rings. I bought two books very cheap at a book sale, but i don't know the system
from,
EE

Cybren
2007-03-21, 01:53 PM
So for Gurps Pros
Cons (this is just what i gathered)
As yet (don't have any books) not details on races, culture, spells ect. One thing i like about D&D is the details of the culture.
Less orginized
As yet, no details about the worlds (though that is just me)
Not nearly as centered. Example, in D&D all the books are centered on the Player's Handbook, with the base classes, races, feats, ect all trace back to that.
Apperently easier to power game
I would imagine it would take ages to makes a character
Not at interconected as D&D (to my knowlage). Example, FR and Ebberon both have the same base races and classes, and they can be exchanged very eaisly. Correct me if i'm wrong
Requires good math skills, I don't like that as i am a bad at math
Complacated
To easy to make a bad character
Actually GURPS Worldbooks are highly detailed, and contain a lot of information. Stuff you'd never find in a D&D book. There is a large population of people who own GURPS books just because of the detail and information held within, applicable to a variety of settings owing in part to GURPS universal nature.

kellandros
2007-03-21, 02:20 PM
I haven't used GURPS for quite a while, so can't really speak to detailed about how combat actually runs. But t he flip side to lethality in GURPS is that neither PCs nor NPCs should ever fight to the death. If you get hurt, you run away. If you ever wanted to do a truly epic sword fight, GURPS has a huge amount of detail to what you can do in combat. This of course makes things run slower.

For the cons to GURPS listed:
The new 4th Edition Campaigns mainbook gives some brief background for a world-jumping campaign(parrallel dimensions, with different levels of technology and magic). For more detail, see their other published books.

GURPS also leads to a different style of characters. You generally do not gain new and exciting abilities every few sessions from leveling up. From what I've seen, characters don't change that much over time with GURPS. You don't suddenly gain amazing feats of power and strength. Character improvement is generally just getting better at what you currently do, and only rarely branching out to new areas.

Character creation takes longer because you simply have more options. The large number of ways to spend character points means more ground to become familiar with. How many prestige classes have been made for d20 now?

Not at interconected as D&D : I'd actually say the opposite. There is nothing in the main rules which is necessarily world specific. You have to go and decide what to exclude yourself- what level of technology to allow, what strength of magic, are there psionics, or aliens, or space travel? Now, races are treated as packages- being a member of that race costs a certain number of points, determined by the point cost of the racial advantages and disadvantages that brings.

Ease of powergaming- what you are describing would be built into any heavily point based system. D20 has the same issues to a lesser extent- see dump stats, and min-maxer's.

For other worlds, you would need some of their world books. The system sort of assumes a blank slate, providing rules and mechanisms. You could probably re-use your d20/D&D settings pretty easily. It just becomes a question of how to use different game mechanics for similar goals.

GURPS Banestorm is the primary fantasy world(have the 3rd edition book). The idea is it is a planet populated by people magically abducted from other worlds(elves, giants, lizardfolk, humans, etc). For Earth, these abductions have been going on through the middle ages. The human kingdoms started with populations from the times of the Crusades. There are both Christian and Muslim kingdoms, occasionally breaking into war. The Banestorm book should provide some background and cultural information for each kingdom; and supply several powerful NPCs for your use. The magical powers of this world have made sure to destroy all knowledge and development of gunpowder, to help keep their power secure.

Dausuul
2007-03-21, 02:35 PM
As lethal as GURPS is, there's an easy way to become invincible... it's called DR. Jack up your DR up over 18 or so, and it doesn't matter what they are, so long as they're doing less than 3d6, they literally cannot affect you except on a critical hit.

If the setting allows it. I admit that my knowledge is a ways out of date, but last I checked, DR (at 3 cp per point) was a supers/racial advantage, not something you could just up and buy. You want DR in a non-supers game, you have to buy Toughness at 10 cp for DR 1 or 25 cp for DR 2. Or pick up armor appropriate to your tech level... but then you'll be facing weapons that can match it, so no gain there.

And if you're playing in a supers game, DR 18 is far from invincible; it just about enables you to walk down the street without getting squashed by a passing supervillain, and not much more.

Sardia
2007-03-21, 04:20 PM
And if you're playing in a supers game, DR 18 is far from invincible; it just about enables you to walk down the street without getting squashed by a passing supervillain, and not much more.

And the guy with the anti-tank rocket will leave that character as a red mist and some wiggly bits on the sidewalk, too.
Innate character abilities tend to have a hard time beating solid technology under those rules.

Jayabalard
2007-03-21, 04:40 PM
Even the comic book superheroes are only going to be in the 400-500 range...tops (for like Superman...Spiderman and Batman would probably be around 300-400, the Fantastic Four around 250-300 a piece). I've not actually worked these through, but off the top of my head, that's about what they'd be I reckon.I did some tests building some of the known superheros using 2nd ed GURPS supers and I think your estimates are kind of low
-it would take 800-1000 points to build superman, depending on how you interpret his some of abilities (for example, I think they retcon'd away superman flying through space without any protection from vacuum since I did this build). His level of invulnerability alone makes up a huge chunk of that.
-the fantastic 4 are all solidly in the "4 color comic" category around 350-450 points, and Spiderman is slightly more.
-Batman was ~450-500 points as well; he has alot of point sunk into skills, several allies, contacts, really good attributes, and a bunch of stuff from the gadgeteer rules.

You could probably do "optimized" versions that are a little cheaper, but that loses alot of the flavor of their character.

But I agree, anything over 1k points and you're talking seriously powerful supers.


Actually GURPS Worldbooks are highly detailed, and contain a lot of information. Stuff you'd never find in a D&D book. There is a large population of people who own GURPS books just because of the detail and information held within, applicable to a variety of settings owing in part to GURPS universal nature.I absolutly agree; and in addition to the real world/historical books, gurps has world books for some great fantasy/sci-fi worlds, stuff like gurps humanx (alan dean foster), gurps lensman (doc smith) and GURPS discworld (Pratchett)

Dausuul
2007-03-21, 07:41 PM
I did some tests building some of the known superheros using 2nd ed GURPS supers and I think your estimates are kind of low
-it would take 800-1000 points to build superman, depending on how you interpret his some of abilities (for example, I think they retcon'd away superman flying through space without any protection from vacuum since I did this build). His level of invulnerability alone makes up a huge chunk of that.

Of course, Superman is brokenly powerful. Can you imagine trying to run a campaign with him in it?

TheNifty
2007-03-21, 08:10 PM
Of course, Superman is brokenly powerful. Can you imagine trying to run a campaign with him in it?

There was a thread over at www.sjgames.com (the GURPS publisher's website, has a pretty cool forum) where they tried to stat Superman.

End result: It varies to heavily from issue to issue what his powers are. If you're looking at giving him every ability he's ever shown, you're looking at a 25,000 point character. You could probably built a god for less than that. If you just want his current in-continuity powers, this is a good build:


Clark - Pulitzer Winning Newsman

2348 points

Attributes:
ST 15 [50]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 15 [100]; HT 13 [30].
Secondary Characteristics:
Dmg 1d+1/2d+2 (7d-1 / 9d); BL 45 lbs / 720 Lbs / 5000t; HP 15 [0]; Will 15 [0]; Per 20 [25]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 6.25 [0]; Basic Move 6 [0].
Advantages:
Altered Time Rate 5 (Costs 12 Energy Reserve -60%; Solar Power -10%; Super Speed, +20%) [250]; Burning Attack 50d (Costs 8 Energy Reserve, -40; Increased Range x5, +20%; Solar Power -10%) [125]: Charisma +5 [25]: Contact Groups 18- (Media, Police, Super) [45]; Cosmic Unarmed Damage (Costs Energy Reserve; Solar Power, -10%) [164]; Damage Resistance 50 (Accessibility: Negated By Kryptonite, Magic, or Red Solar Radiation, -10%; Force Field, +20%; Solar Power, -10%) [250]; Doesn’t Breathe (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10%, Solar Power -10%) [16]: Energy Reserve 150 (Solar Power -10%, Only Recharges Under Yellow Sunlight -10%) [360]; Flight (Costs 2 Energy Reserve, -10%; Solar Power -10%; Space Flight, +50%) [52]; Higher Purpose (Truth, Justice, and the American Way) [5]; Hyperspectral Vision (Costs 2 Energy Reserve, -10%; Extended Low Band +30%, Extended High Band +30%, Increased Range x 100, +60%, Solar Power -10%) [50]; Crushing Attack 3d (Costs 2 Energy Reserve, -10%; Knock Back x 32, +100%, Linked To Temperature Control, +20%; Solar Power, -10%) [30]; Lifting Strength 20 (+5000 ST; Costs 8 Energy Reserve -40%; Solar Power, -10%; Super Effort +400%) [270]; Microscopic Vision 3 (Costs 1 Energy Reserve; Solar Power, -10%) [13]; Parabolic Hearing 10 (Costs 1 Energy Reserve , Solar Power, -10%) [34]; Penetrating Vison 60 inches (Blocked by lead, -10%, Costs 1 Energy Reserve, -5%, Solar Power, -10%) [75]; Pressure Support 3 (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10% Solar Power, -10%) [12]; Radiation Tolerance 1000 (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10% Solar Power, -10%) [36]; Regeneration 1 HP / minute (Costs 1 Energy Reserve, -5%; Solar Power, -10%) [40]; Resistant To Metabolic Hazards (non-human physiology in general) [30]; Strength +45 & Hit points -45 (Costs 2 Energy Reserve, -10%; Solar Power -10%) [288]; Subsonic Hearing (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10%;Solar Power -10%) [4]; Temperature Control 10 (Cold, -50%; Costs 8 Energy Reserve, -40%; Increased Range x10, +30%; Linked To Crushing Attack, +20%; Solar Power, -10%) [25]; Temperature Tolerance 50 (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10%;Solar Power -10%) [40]; Ultra Hearing (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10%;Solar Power -10%) [4]; Unaging (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10%;Solar Power -10%) [12]; Vacuum Support (Accessiblilty: Negated By Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation, -10%;Solar Power -10%) [4].

Disadvantages:
Charitable (Resist on 6-) [-30]; Dependent Group12 (Coworkers, 25% of points or less; Appear on 12-) [-40]; Enemies (good grief, like crazy) [-60]; Easy To Read [-10]; Honesty (Resist on 6-) [-20]; Mundane Background (no, really!) [-10]; Overconfidence (Resist on 12-) [-5]; Secret Identity [-5]; Selfless (Resist on 12-) [-5]; Sense of Duty [-15]; Weakness 1d / minute (ACK KRYPTONITE!; Affects Fatigue, HP, and Energy Reserve) [-60]; Workaholic [-5].

Skills:
Area Knowledge-15 (Hypertime) (IQ) [1]; Area Knowledge-15 (Universe) (IQ) [1]; Area Knowledge-16 (Earth) (IQ+1) [2]; Area Knowledge-17 (America) (IQ+2) [4]; Area Knowledge-18 (Metropolis) (IQ+3) [8]; Boxing-14 (DX+2) [8]; Computer Operation-16 (IQ+1) [2]; Cooking-14 (IQ-1) [1]; Current Affairs/8-17 (Regional) (IQ+2) [4]; Current Affairs/8-17 (People) (IQ+2) [4]; Diplomacy-17 (IQ+2) [12]; Dropping-12 (DX) [2]: Electronics Operation/12-14 (Matter Transmitters) (IQ-1) [1]; First Aid-15 (IQ) [1]; Flight-15 (HT+2) [8]; Geography/8-15 (IQ) [4]; Law (American)-14 (IQ-1) [2]; Leadership-20* (IQ) [2]; Navigation (Air) /8 -15 (IQ) [2]; Observation-20 (Per) [2]; Propaganda/8 -14(IQ-1) [1]; Psychology-13 (IQ-2) [1]; Public Speaking-20* (IQ) [1]; Research/8 -17 (IQ+2) [8]; Sociology-13 (IQ-2) [1]; Streetwise-15 (IQ) (2); Typing-14 (DX+2) [4]; Writing-20 (IQ+5) [20].

*Includes +5 for Charisma

Solar Power: Clark’s powers are a result of his unique alien physiology. His cells store incredible amounts of solar power and translate it into a complex biological force field that shelters him from many of the laws of physics.

Notes: This is intended to be the post crisis character who struggles to land damaged aircraft, rather than the guy who flattens the sides of planets. I’m not sure how I like the Energy Reserve as it complicates things and isn’t all that point effective, however, it does model how he works in the comics quite well. It also serves to explain how he justifies spending time as a civilian while he could be saving lives. The cosmic unarmed damage seems fitting for the hardest object in the universe punching things with enough strength to lift a frigate.


If you are looking at this and thinking "dear god, that's insanely overpowered!", Note its pretty much impossible to build a generic Green Lantern (not even a more powerful Lantern, like Hal Jordan)for less than about 7,000 points.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-21, 11:58 PM
Ya want an almost unstoppable super?

For 500 points, he gets Psychokinesis Power 100, and then spends some more on all the relevant skills.

Congratulations, he's got PD and DR of about 50 when he activates his PK shield, he can launch semi trucks at super-mach speeds, turn buildings into slag in one turn, and only the PK shield actually costs him any fatigue. We're talking 'Jean Grey wishes she had this kind of power' level psionics here.

Heck, even Professor X probably didn't have much more than a Power 50 in Telepathy. At power 21, range is 125 miles, and it DOUBLES for every point after that.

Toss in a high enough ESP, and it won't matter what you use, because he'll see it comming long before you try it, and will have already reduced you to slag before you activate it.

Cybren
2007-03-22, 12:12 AM
There's always a bigger fish (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=239055&postcount=216)

silvermesh
2007-03-22, 09:25 AM
Geez...I've only played a couple of GURPS games (one rules tester, one actual, I DM'ed both), but...why?

That seems to me like playing Epic D&D games...a bit pointless. The characters are so incredibly hard/powerful/etc that there's very little in the way of opposition...and you call it 'semi-supers'? I'd call it 'mega-supers' myself. Even the comic book superheroes are only going to be in the 400-500 range...tops (for like Superman...Spiderman and Batman would probably be around 300-400, the Fantastic Four around 250-300 a piece). I've not actually worked these through, but off the top of my head, that's about what they'd be I reckon.

Sorry to rant, but it just struck me as rather incredible.



I should note that batman isn't even a super, he's just a guy who is well-trained. Nothing batman does is something that a human can't do with enough money and/or training. Spiderman is strong and he can climb walls, hes also an inventor, but this still isn't particularly high-end, and a 1000 point superman would be excessively weak compared to what superman tends to do in the comics.

the points level led to my brother playing a lot of "Elven bladesinger" type characters with mastery in katana and decent spellcasting(my brother is obsessed with elven bladesingers, and with Elric of melnibone), and my characters running the gamut from a swordsman with massive healing powers, but no skill unlocked in those powers at creation, to a barbarian war-chief with an artifact crystal embedded in his chest that granted super strength and regeneration.

like I said, at the points levels we played at in that campaign, we still had frequent death, thats just the name of the game. it really does just make it more like playing D&D.

as far as the DR 18 guy? thats laughable. if you've got enough points to easily obtain 18 DR, what are the odds that your enemy doesn't have enough points to have energy attacks that bypass your DR? Or even stuff that doesn't do damage, but is worse? or even just deals high enough damage to overcome the DR?

what I don't understand is the whole "if you aren't low level and weak, the game isn't fun" line of thinking so many people have. in a game like GURPS, the power level slides on a scale. it's easy to up challenges for higher powered characters. I'm of the opinion that the title of "dragonslayer" is far more memorable than the title of "goblinslayer"

as far as pros/cons versus playing D&D, I'll agree with most of whats already said, and just poke in one thing. I'm a person who revels in the simple mechanics of the thing, but simple as they are, the numbers can get tedious.

if you like character creation(I really do), it's a good game for it, because there are limitless character possibilities. The number of GURPS games I've played pales in comparison to the number of characters I've built. which again pales in comparison to the number of vehicles i've statted up(I love the vehicles book, then again I'm obsessed with cars with gun-mounts).

GURPS is the game that has many followers, and most of them have probably never actually played, because it's much easier to play in theory than in reality ;) It's everybody's favorite game that they never play.

Caelestion
2007-03-22, 10:40 AM
It was shown on the GURPS forum that Magneto only needs Telekinesis 28 to lift Golden Gate Bridge, provided that he uses Extra Effort. Professor Xavier is likely to have the same sort of power level.

Besides which, you can build an effective monk-type "invulnerability" syndrome with less than 1000 pts:
Damage Resistance 100 (Hardened X2, Tough Skin, Cannot Wear Armour) [400]
Injury Tolerance (Damage Resistance 4) [100]
Regeneration (Super) [100]
Unkillable I [50]

That way, you subtract 100 from all damage dealt, reduce the DR divisor by two steps (even "Ignores DR" is reduced to 1/10th DR rating) and quarter all damage that gets through DR. What's more, you restore 1 hp a second anyway and can only be killed by complete destruction of the body (-10x HT).

The cost? A mere 650 pts. (Invulnerability, or close to it, is easy - getting the right conditions can be more tricky.)

Sardia
2007-03-22, 10:47 AM
Ya want an almost unstoppable super?

For 500 points, he gets Psychokinesis Power 100, and then spends some more on all the relevant skills.

I'm guessing this is one of the things that went out in 4th edition.
Put 500 points into Telekinesis (with a 10% cost reduction due to it being a psionic power) and you do indeed get a hurling monstrosity. And you can fly if you put your mind to it every turn.
On the other hand, you don't get any defense from that, so someone will just sit hidden a couple hundred yards away with a sniper rifle and blow your head off while you're hauling small cars around.
Or the guy with Neutralize with enhanced range goes "Pffft" and you stand there looking blank while the cops rush in to have a nightstick party.