What can psychics bring unique to the table?

[CyberThread]

The only thing I can think of is a spell point system of some sort like 3e.


PSI have always had a problem of just being spells with a differnt name that wizards or clerics can cast.


What sort of niche do you think, WOTC can carve out for them, to make them feel unique and not just a reskinned caster?

[Inevitability]

*psionics

Now that that's out of the way, I think WOTC might give psionic characters X weak powers they can use all day, which can be augmented by spending Y of your Z power points.

[Kyutaru]

Customizable powers. I've always seen psychic powers as being more malleable than wizard spells because you're not depending on some formula, you're tapping into your inner power.

I would like to see a similar setup to wizard spells where you can adjust level on the fly by consuming more power points, but in addition they can tack on some spell modifications or "options" to tailor their powers to the situation.

Take Fireball as a psychic power. You can cast it for 9 power points. Or you can cast it for 11 power points with the damage type switched. Or make it into an electric cone for 13 power points. If you really want to go nuts, you can make it a ranged 30-foot cube with electric damage, upgraded damage dice, enhanced saving throws, and resistance-piercing effect for 27 power points.

Or if you use something like Telepathy, for a minimal 3 point cost you can talk to allies nearby, for 5 points you can replicate Sending across many miles, for 9 points you can read another creature's thoughts, for 13 points you can influence their thoughts, for 17 points you can take control of their thoughts, for 19 points you can cause brain damage, for 27 points you can make them stop breathing.

[JoeJ]

For me, psychics bring nothing at all as long as casters are in the game. It's just another kind of magic, and there's enough of that already. If you eliminate spell casting and just have psychics, that might be interesting.

[Tenmujiin]

I think WOTC might give psionic characters X weak powers they can use all day, which can be augmented by spending Y of your Z power points.

Thats how 4e handled it so I wouldn't be surprised. Probably something along the lines of a sorcerer with more sorcery points and mostly cantrips/lv1 spells.

[Krymoar]

Psionics are my favorite -

Archetypes by type(Which there are an uncountable amount of possibilities, so mentioning popular ones)- Psychic, Thermokinetic, Psychokinetic

No spell slots or spell lists. Spell-like abilities, and not stuff like "You can cast italicized spell"

Probably going to need to add a "weapon" or something, don't throw rules at me, just for the moment going to put it like:

"You can make ranged attacks with your unarmed strikes, when you do they deal 1d4(?) damage, and you use your Charisma modifier instead of strength."

Unarmed Defense, when unarmed your defense is 10+Dex+Cha, or 13+Cha

Thermokinetic, your ranged unarmed strikes deal fire or Cold damage, ? Level you gain resistance/immunity to Fire/Cold

Psychic - your ranged unarmed strikes deal Psychic(duh) damage, ? Level double your proficiency when making a skill check that involves Charisma

Psychokinetic - you may use your Cha mod for any checks requiring Strength or Dex, increase your ranged unarmed strikes damage dice to 1d6, you can use shove and grapple from (Cha Mod)feet away from your target, you do not need a free hand to grapple, Level 3 you can pick up and interact with objects up to (Cha Mod) feet away

(I don't like points, but WoTC likes giving psionics points) Spend a Psion point, choose a second target when you make a ranged attack with your unarmed strike. Spend two psion points, double the amount of damage of your ranged unarmed strikes

[Balyano]

"You can make ranged attacks with your unarmed strikes, when you do they deal 1d4(?) damage, and you use your Charisma modifier instead of strength."

Unarmed Defense, when unarmed your defense is 10+Dex+Cha, or 13+Cha

works for a telekinetic warrior, uses telekinesis to deflect incoming blows

should have force choke like darth vader, fly like superman, throw up a form fitting force field to sap the kinetic energy of blows (gain resistance vs slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing) till it runs out, or maybe till it blocks a certain amount

but when I think of a psychic fighter the first thing I think of is a precognitive ''I know how you are going to move before you do it'' type, so more wisdom based. using wisdom to hit rather than strength or dex, and 10+dex+wis or 13+wis to ac because he is dodging blows with his ''spidey-sense'' - precognitive might work better as a half-manifester jedi swordsman type though

[rlc]

*psionics

Now that that's out of the way, I think WOTC might give psionic characters X weak powers they can use all day, which can be augmented by spending Y of your Z power points.

Don't warlocks already do that with hex?


you can use shove and grapple from (Cha Mod)feet away from your target, you do not need a free hand to grapple, Level 3 you can pick up and interact with objects up to (Cha Mod) feet away

So like Jedi stuff. I like it. Force choke is always fun.

[Daishain]

I always liked to think of them as a physicists of the D&D realm.

This is not really in keeping with 5E's KISS design philosophy, but something I would find very interesting nonetheless:

Instead of named powers, psionicists have utilities that they are free to modify in pretty much any way they desire, but doing so can cost a great deal of their mental reserve.

For instance, I want to effectively shoot someone. Apply about 500 joules of work energy to a small dense object, (probably add it up at about 1 PP per 50 joules) slap on a +75% (round up) modifier to aim at a precise target, and bam, you just hit someone with the rough equivalent of a mid caliber bullet.

Similarly, telekinetically applied work energy could be used to slow a fall, pickpocket someone from a distance, "throw" rocks from a bush you are not in at a guard, or knock someone prone by shifting their balance at the wrong moment.

[mr_odd]

Now that sorcerers and wizards are considerably different, I'd be willing to bet that psionics will be too. If we're getting an entire supplement for psionics, I would assume they would be different, considering 5e's design philosophy and choices.

[Likantropos]

I'd like to see psionics similar to Incarnum in 3.5...

[MukkTB]

I don't see a great deal of difference between a psionic and a traditional caster. Sorcerers blur the line further, being able to cast from inner power as well. As such I don't *need* to see psionics. I do recognize that psionics would make some people happy. (Mostly I feel fine refluffing stuff so the exact flavor isn't so important to me.) If they add it in, some unique casting system would be my preference.

[HorridElemental]

I'd like to see psionics similar to Incarnum in 3.5...

I think having 5e Incarnum being more like 3.5 Incarnum would be for the best.

[rlc]

I don't see a great deal of difference between a psionic and a traditional caster. Sorcerers blur the line further, being able to cast from inner power as well. As such I don't *need* to see psionics. I do recognize that psionics would make some people happy. (Mostly I feel fine refluffing stuff so the exact flavor isn't so important to me.) If they add it in, some unique casting system would be my preference.

intelligence devourer origin sorcerer subclass

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe they'll bring back psionic attack/defense modes...:smalleek:

[LTwerewolf]

Maybe they'll bring back psionic attack/defense modes...:smalleek:

No!

Or the long version:

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooo

[Segev]

I'd like to see psionics similar to Incarnum in 3.5...


I think having 5e Incarnum being more like 3.5 Incarnum would be for the best.
This is what I would do. Merge "power points" and "essentia" into one pool of stuff, and have psionic powers be learned like sorcerer/warlock/bard spells. But by and large, they give passive abilities (or active abilities that just cost the action used to activate them), and the power of them depends on psionic power points/essentia committed to them. Maybe give "overcharge" or "surge" abilities that let you burn power points for even bigger, instantaneous-type effects.


Maybe they'll bring back psionic attack/defense modes...:smalleek:

If they did, it would be an interesting call back to earlier editions (3.0 was the last time they tried). But it would require a LOT of effort to make it work smoothly. It never really fit with D&D all that well (and was made worse in 1e and 2e by the fact that it was supposed to be 10 rounds of psychic combat to 1 round of real time, meaning non-psi characters did a LOT of waiting around when it happened).

Maybe some sort of blanked buff/debuff aura system, with reasonable effects for non-psi characters and massive, larger effects for psionic ones. When not dealing with other psionics, it's mostly just putting up the right aura effect to help our your party or hinder your foes strategically. But another psion means you have to not just pick effects for their strategic benefit and detriment to non-psions, but to defend yourself against the effects of your opposing psion, altering the choices made with greater depth but also greater potential strength...or weakness, if you lose the exchange.

[Easy_Lee]

Probably power points, SLA's (become incorporeal, etc.), a limited spell list and lots of INT saves. Plenty can be done to make them different as long as the writers are creative.

[toapat]

This is what I would do. Merge "power points" and "essentia" into one pool of stuff, and have psionic powers be learned like sorcerer/warlock/bard spells. But by and large, they give passive abilities (or active abilities that just cost the action used to activate them), and the power of them depends on psionic power points/essentia committed to them. Maybe give "overcharge" or "surge" abilities that let you burn power points for even bigger, instantaneous-type effects.

this doesnt really make sense in the way that merging Binding and Incarnum would. Psionics has always been "Magic, but different in these fluff ways and uses bullets instead of missile slots". as opposed to Incarnum which is soul shaping, powered by this array of D-Cell batteries that you can swap into other soul shapes. Mechanically the beginning is similar but the end result between incarnum and psionics are entirely unrelated.

The reason id expect Incarnum to absorb Binding is because binding mechanically is the same end result of Incarnum but with slightly different fluff. Fluff that was sold to the warlock

[silveralen]

Well, from what I remember of 2nd edition psionics were basically more subtle powers that could be used more often. They were similar to 3rd edition sorcerers in that they typically had to specialize with power choice, but didn't have to lock in spells each day like a wizard. They rewarded clever thinking and usage quite a bit, and kinda needed it due to being somewhat lacking in sheer oomph and showiness.

Then again, that could just be how the psionics at my table played. I remember running a psion/fighter in dark sun and enjoying it but not a ton on what the psion brought to the table besides a few abilities that boosted stats.

[Theodoxus]

I hope it's akin to something Dire_Stirge said - but taken like the Kirthfinder simplified metamagic spell builder.

Basically, you have a few static abilities - An Energy Attack, a Kinetic Defense, a Psychic Attack, a Psychic Defense, a Movement Power, a Living Control Power and a Non-Living Control Power.

Then, you have modifiers to each. Increasing damage, range, effect, size, shape, etc.

So for some number of points you can create a fireball or acid ball or thunderball; or a psychic ball. You could create a TK Barrier like Shield, or a bubble like Resilient Sphere. You could create a Mind Blank or a Mind Blank Bubble; make it opaque to create an Invisibility Sphere like effect - giving a boost to Stealth - whatever...

Anyway, if you give only a few base powers, but lots of modifiers, let psions craft their effects on the fly and have good rules on modifier interaction so you don't end up with crazy OP effects with optimization - it'd be unique and fun.

That's my hope, at least.

[The_Ditto]

Customizable powers. I've always seen psychic powers as being more malleable than wizard spells because you're not depending on some formula, you're tapping into your inner power.

I would like to see a similar setup to wizard spells where you can adjust level on the fly by consuming more power points, but in addition they can tack on some spell modifications or "options" to tailor their powers to the situation.


I can agree wtih this ..



Take Fireball as a psychic power. You can cast it for 9 power points. Or you can cast it for 11 power points with the damage type switched. Or make it into an electric cone for 13 power points. If you really want to go nuts, you can make it a ranged 30-foot cube with electric damage, upgraded damage dice, enhanced saving throws, and resistance-piercing effect for 27 power points.


However, I'd like to see psionics with less "nuke" powers. They don't really fit the "toss fireballs" around kind of thing to me. Shocking grasp sure, body modifications, expansions, flight, walk on water .. sure. Molecular transmuations, etc ... ok .. sure. But "fireball", "lightning bolt", aka "Energy xxx" .. nah, that was one thing I didn't like in 3.5. That's the arcane "niche" ... nuking things at range.

I'd like to see psionics as much more Mental based, and/or physical manipulation based.


re: Attack/defense modes:
In my opinion, they should just be power-variations, perhaps "cantrip-like", but the way they function needs to stay away from 1st edition. Heck even a simple "take some dmg/effect, but if your psionic, you get resistance " ... might work.

[Segev]

this doesnt really make sense in the way that merging Binding and Incarnum would. Psionics has always been "Magic, but different in these fluff ways and uses bullets instead of missile slots". as opposed to Incarnum which is soul shaping, powered by this array of D-Cell batteries that you can swap into other soul shapes. Mechanically the beginning is similar but the end result between incarnum and psionics are entirely unrelated.

The reason id expect Incarnum to absorb Binding is because binding mechanically is the same end result of Incarnum but with slightly different fluff. Fluff that was sold to the warlock

Nah, mechanically (not fluff-wise), Incarnum has similarity to psionics in that it's points used to power abilities. It has mechanical similarity to binding in that it's a power you select in the morning and just keep, but binding is suites of powers while incarnum is pick-and-choose (with the added caveat of occupying, sort-of, magic item slots).

Regardless of whether you think Incarnum fluff-wise meshes with psionics, my reasons for drawing on it for 5e psi inspiration are that much of what 3e used to make psionics unique (augmentable powers, ability to sacrifice more low-level powers for higher-level ones in a given day) are already heavily absorbed by magic in 5e.

2e Psionics was actually almost a proto-Feat system; psionic powers were selected and learned much like feats, with prerequisites and everything. That doesn't seem suitable to 5e.

Therefore, refluffing a lot of Incarnum mechanics to be psionics seems sensible to me. It has the "points" shape to its mechanic that psionics has always had, though it stops them from being naturally expended. IT can merge this a bit with the idea of requiring a minimum reserve of PP for certain 3.0 psionic feats; instead, now, it's your psionic powers themselves which require minimum investment of essentia (now renamed to power points). Greater investment yields cooler results.

I draw on Incarnum not because of its fluff, but because it strikes me as something that is unique and interesting and worked well, and is different enough from what 5e has done with spellcasting to be unique. Making psionics "at-will powers" that can be augmented sounds like it'd be stepping heavily in Warlock territory (spells/short rest + invocations).

To differentiate psionics from Binding, mechanically, I'd probably have the only thing that psions can just naturally claim to have access to at all times be the attack/defense modes. Invest power points in them for aura effects and to wage buff/debuff wars with other psions. Unlike Incarnum and Binding, I'd otherwise require Psions to actually pick and choose between the powers they wish to learn. Structure them like feat trees with prerequisites, maybe even have the Disciplines make some easier to get or give exclusive access. But no two Psions need have the same powers. Unlike Incarnum, two who don't won't be able to suddenly have the same ones tomorrow, either.

Binding could largely remain as-is, ported up from 3e. Heck, make it a Warlock Pact or Patron. Change their binding(s) daily or something.

[archaeo]

Just to add to the already good points Segev made, I'd be interested to see Psionic classes deliberately breaking the "concentration economy" the other casters have to contend with. While 5e already has lots of ways to focus a casting build on buffs and debuffs, it would be interesting to see a class that was more directly based on doing that, and Psionics seems like a really solid place to put that. Concentration makes it purposefully difficult to stack buffs/debuffs; a class that was much more focused on controlling the battlefield and the combatants would be cool, in my opinion, and removing the impediments of concentration should be possible given a separate spell list/a point-based and nebulous casting system.

Honestly, "control" as a casting archetype is the only design niche I really see unfilled in the PHB, at least as a straightforward concept instead of a Wizard/Cleric subclass and spell selection thing.

[toapat]

Nah, mechanically (not fluff-wise), Incarnum has similarity to psionics in that it's points used to power abilities. It has mechanical similarity to binding in that it's a power you select in the morning and just keep, but binding is suites of powers while incarnum is pick-and-choose (with the added caveat of occupying, sort-of, magic item slots).

having similar mechanical starting points doesnt justify anything ever. you are quite literally comparing a Backhoe to a supercar. Sure, they are 4 wheeled vehicles and use similar engineering principles, but every decision ever involved in designing them was aimed in opposite and unrelated directions. This is the same case with Incarnum and Psionics. both use point systems, but one of them is an investment system while the other is an expenditure system. The individual value of a single power point is significantly lower then the individual point of essentia.

comparitively, Binding and Incarnum being merged makes alot of sense, because the limited number of ways that binding didnt overlap Incarnum was the individual sophistication of a vestige (which isnt too much of a problem if they would be higher tier bindings), the fluff (minimal bs), and not using essentia to enhance them. That could be solved easily by making Vestiges multi-slot soulbinds and giving them Essentia Investment potential.

While alot of what made Psionics mechanically different from magic in 3rd was merged into spellcasting, the reason it was was because alot of the design of vancian was antiquated, spells scaling naturally with you results in significantly lowered resource investment then casters need to be on a competitive level with non full-casters. Daishane's idea is better then what is apparently being championed by this thread because it simply accepts that psionics is screwed, and if you want to plug Incarnum into Psionics, you are screwing Incarnum as well

[MaxWilson]

It never really fit with D&D all that well (and was made worse in 1e and 2e by the fact that it was supposed to be 10 rounds of psychic combat to 1 round of real time, meaning non-psi characters did a LOT of waiting around when it happened).

Only in first, not second.

[HorridElemental]

this doesnt really make sense in the way that merging Binding and Incarnum would. Psionics has always been "Magic, but different in these fluff ways and uses bullets instead of missile slots". as opposed to Incarnum which is soul shaping, powered by this array of D-Cell batteries that you can swap into other soul shapes. Mechanically the beginning is similar but the end result between incarnum and psionics are entirely unrelated.

The reason id expect Incarnum to absorb Binding is because binding mechanically is the same end result of Incarnum but with slightly different fluff. Fluff that was sold to the warlock

This could go a long way of making Incarnum less head scratchingly painful for some people.

Incarnum = Soul Juice/Power and you bind it to yourself and can modify points which upgrade abilities.

You get your Soul Juice either by absorbing it sometime in the morning or by asking Vestiges for it.

Psionics could actually be made into subclasses for each current class with some overlap. So the Barbarian and Sorcerer may get a Wilder subclass while the Fighter has Psychic Warrior and the Wizard/Cleric has Psion.

If done correctly this could be a fun and interesting way to mix up the current classes. And since Psionics and Magic really is the same thing... It really shouldn't matter if the Wizard has the same spells as before but they run under slightly different rules and such.

[Segev]

having similar mechanical starting points doesnt justify anything ever. you are quite literally comparing a Backhoe to a supercar. Sure, they are 4 wheeled vehicles and use similar engineering principles, but every decision ever involved in designing them was aimed in opposite and unrelated directions. This is the same case with Incarnum and Psionics. both use point systems, but one of them is an investment system while the other is an expenditure system. The individual value of a single power point is significantly lower then the individual point of essentia.

comparitively, Binding and Incarnum being merged makes alot of sense, because the limited number of ways that binding didnt overlap Incarnum was the individual sophistication of a vestige (which isnt too much of a problem if they would be higher tier bindings), the fluff (minimal bs), and not using essentia to enhance them. That could be solved easily by making Vestiges multi-slot soulbinds and giving them Essentia Investment potential.Er... you realize that your every comment about why Incarnum mechanics can't possibly work for Psionics could equally be said about combining Incarnum and Binding.

Literally the only similarity between the two is that you have a limited number of abilities you can have active at once, but you can pick ANY of the abilities from the lists available. ...except that even taht's not true, because Binding had levels of Vestiges which were off-limits until you reached a certain level, while Incarnum allowed any soulmeld at all at any level (just restricted their cooler effects based on a hidden level-limiting mechanic of Chakra Binds).

You're bias towards your preferred merging is coloring your analysis.

I'm not saying what you suggest couldn't work, but I don't see how the fluff works together nearly as well for binding+incarnum. In particular, trying to work a points-based battery into binding seems off, to me. It feels like it would distort the mechanical-fluff union of Binding's rules and narrative in unfortunate ways, while still wrecking Incarnum as a thing.

Viewed as purely mechanical systems, the similarities serve more as overlap that steps on each other's toes, I think, than as ways to make them compatible, and the contrast of chakra binds limited by level or feat access to simply directly stating "must be X level in the class to take this vestige" doesn't lend itself, to my mind, to a logical melding. I remain unsure how a points-based shuffling system serves Binding, as well.

Still, more power to you if you see a way to do it.


While alot of what made Psionics mechanically different from magic in 3rd was merged into spellcasting, the reason it was was because alot of the design of vancian was antiquated, spells scaling naturally with you results in significantly lowered resource investment then casters need to be on a competitive level with non full-casters. Daishane's idea is better then what is apparently being championed by this thread because it simply accepts that psionics is screwed, and if you want to plug Incarnum into Psionics, you are screwing Incarnum as well
I am not sure what "Daishane's idea" is if it's not "being championed in this thread." If you're just saying "screw psionics; everything that made it unique is now part of spellcasting and we should leave it that way," then I obviously disagree. Psionics, for all its issues, has been part of D&D since AD&D 1e, and it has more fans than Incarnum or Binding.

If you mean merging Incarnum's mechanics with Psionics will screw Incarnum by removing Incarnum's mechanic as a unique things, you might be right. I am honestly not sure Incarnum will work all that well, thematically, with 5e, if the currently-expected situation with magic items comes up. Then again, maybe atunement rules will make it work more smoothly.

Still, all I'm really looking at taking from Incarnum is the idea of a shifting pool of points to empower different abilities. I am envisioning psionics as still having a limited number of powers known, but these powers being broader and having more passive benefits. Even active "attack powers" basically only consume power points during the round they're in use, and force choices between attack power and other passive benefits. Limit the number of power points invested in any one power by level or even to the Proficiency bonus of the character.

So, for example, knowing the Telekinesis power might give you Mage Hand levels of TK that you can use at any time. Invest power points into it, and the amount of weight you can lift and move around increases.

I see no reason to tie Psionics to "magic item slots," nor to allow (as a general thing) the ability to change load-out to literally any psionic power printed (for your particular psionic class, anyway) the way Incarnum did for soulmelds. I just think borrowing the "essentia pool" and its shifting investment would be a good way to design a unique and flavorful psionics that is distinct from magic, retains the "mental energy" feel, and draws on a proven mechanic from an earlier edition.

In all honesty, I'd probably make Incarnum as it was in 3e a subclass approach to the Artificer, who I imagine will have a lot of special abilities and powers to expand upon the ability to acquire and use magic items.

[Person_Man]

I'm really sad that they didn't include the Psion or Psychic Warrior in the core book, and make telepathy and dominate his unique niche. But presumably they realized that a Psionics book would be their best selling supplement, and probably one of their first supplements.

I feel as if the psionically fluffed niches are already taken by the spellcasters, so psionics will basically just be mechanically different (ie, the same stuff but with different resource management). I have no idea what form it'll take. But my guess is that since it will be one of the first supplements, it will stick pretty close to the damage output and overall resource economy of the PHB classes.

[silveralen]

What makes you think psionics will be one of the first non core releases? I seem to recall it came rather late in the past two editions.

[Segev]

Psionics has always been "the other subsystem" in nearly every edition. (I don't know about 4e; 4e didn't seem to have subsystems other than "martial adept.") So yes, it will have to be distinguished by its mechanical differences at least as much as by its flavor.

Even in 3e, where they made it far more like spellcasting than it ever had been before, it retained distinctions in its augmentation rules at least as much as in the fact that the power points resource meant they could nova high-level powers at the expense of lower-level ones much more easily.

5e's Sorcerer already has the ability to (to an extent) sacrifice lower-level spell slots for higher-level ones, and it's even through a medium of "Sorcerer Points," which smells an awful lot like power points if you come at it from the right angle. And all spellcasters have "augmentation" through casting at a higher spell level, now. So none of that will distinguish psionics; if it's there, it'll be as similarities, not as differences.

I think, if I were designing it, the structure I'd apply would be one where you learn a limited number of powers as you level up. I might structure some trees to limit certain powers by requiring you to have prerequisite powers, but other than that, I wouldn't put level limits. Instead, some powers would have uses with no power points invested in them, while others would require at least one to be useful. In any case, you can't invest more PP into any power than your Proficiency Bonus. Powers would expand their strength and even utility (adding more "things you can do") as you invest more PP into them. If I wanted to get really complex, I might have powers which require others as prerequisites also require certain amounts of investment in their prereqs before you can unlock higher-investment traits in themselves.

I'm not sure how I'd handle multiclassing; probably wouldn't limit it too strongly, relying on lack of ability to pick up new powers rather than restricting how much PP can be invested in any of them in much the way spellcasting limits you by having only so many spell slots if you multiclass.

[edge2054]

I'm not sure they really need to fill a niche. At this point the game has lots of different casters so the caster niche is well covered. Psionics are going to be more of that same niche, regardless of how you cut it. We'll have some gishes and there will be mind casters but it's still the same niche.

That said they can bring a lot of unique flavor. Gishes that gain psi points when hit for instance fills the absorption/discharge flavor that shows up often in comics. A dream focused psion is something I've done for another game and it was well received. Of course the old standby of telepathy is fairly well covered by GOO-locks but a psion could take that to an extreme. Possession is fun too.

All of these are basically new flavors of casters but there's nothing wrong with that.

[rollingForInit]

Personally, I would like to see Psions, at least, as characters that develop and refine a very limited subset of abilities. A Telepath should have considerable telepathic abilities, that can be used at-will (with a limit on more advanced features). As the character levels up, you get additional ways to use the telepathic powers. Same goes for having telekinetic powers or clairvoyant abilities. You'd have to choose a path, and beyond that path, you'd be very limited. That is, a Telepath shouldn't be able to do any advanced Telekinetics I'd love to see some of them being much more suitable for RP than combat (and vice versa), although everyone should be able to contribute to combat in some extent, of course.

I'm not sure how to manage that in a way that's distinguished from the Wizard, Sorcerer and especially the Warlock ... but that is what I hope for. I don't want just another way to cast Wizard spells.

[Segev]

Well.... when you say "psions will be in the caster niche," how are you defining "caster?"

Is a binder a caster? An Incarnate? Is a martial adept a caster? Is being a caster about the mechanics or about what they can do?

I would argue it's about the mechanics - being a caster is primarily defined by the casting of spells, which are in limited supply due to consuming some sort of energy. Warlocks (and all cantrips) push this, but act like casters still because they have a "spellcasting" action flavor to them. Even so, they're about the limit of it, to me.

I would not characterise Incarnum as "casting," nor would I call Binding "casting."

Psionics has always been like casting to a greater or lesser degree, but the (admittedly underwhelming) Soulknife shows that it doesn't have to be.

That's why I'd like to pull from Incarnum's essential pool concept to redo psionics. It may or may not fill the effective niche that a spellcaster could, but it almost will be taking the 3e Warlock's approach. Give them psionic powers that they can use more or less at will, but which they only have so much energy for any set of them at a time.

Heck, as part of the throwback-to-earlier-editions vibe, if there's a way to work the old attack and defense modes in smoothly, rather than as something that was almost exclusive to psion-vs-psion encounters, it could be pretty cool. And I think that, too, would be another place to shift psi points around.

Maybe Mind Thrust is the basic psion attack, dealing psychic damage to its target. More pp invested makes it stronger. Would need more passive things from other powers, though; active powers that can't be used in the same round as other active powers mean there's no incentive to keep PP distributed between them.

[Person_Man]

What makes you think psionics will be one of the first non core releases? I seem to recall it came rather late in the past two editions.

Because it sold really well, and was probably the most popular non-core material. It was also really popular in 2E and Pathfinder (Dreamscarred Press).

[Segev]

At the very least, it's the first new subsystem I'd expect to see (aside from the kinds of things the DMG is known for, like magic items and the like). This is typical. The closest thing to an exception in 3e was that Warlocks nearly are their own subsystem, and they came out in Complete Arcane.

[edge2054]

3rd Ed Psionics felt way too much like magic but not magic to me. I liked how it was handled in 2nd edition, maybe not from a mechanics perspective but from a flavor perspective anyway.

Mechanically there's only so many ways to handle resources. We've seen 5th Ed already touch on a lot of them. Personally, I hope we see a charge up mechanic for psionics to counterbalance a lot of the nova stuff we're currently seeing.

So rather than have X PP you can spend per short rest you instead gain PP during a fight. A pyro for instance may build up heat by using a fire 'cantrip' or taking fire damage. Heat could in turn be used to fuel bigger pyro effects which in turn would build more heat. After combat, heat would quickly dissipate.

A TK class could do something similar with kinetic energy. A telepath by feeding on the mental energy of other living beings or linking minds (quite fitting considering Mind Flayer lore).

If it ends up spells but not spells and even follows spellcasting progression like it did in 3.X I'll probably pass.

[rollingForInit]

3rd Ed Psionics felt way too much like magic but not magic to me. I liked how it was handled in 2nd edition, maybe not from a mechanics perspective but from a flavor perspective anyway.

Mechanically there's only so many ways to handle resources. We've seen 5th Ed already touch on a lot of them. Personally, I hope we see a charge up mechanic for psionics to counterbalance a lot of the nova stuff we're currently seeing.

So rather than have X PP you can spend per short rest you instead gain PP during a fight. A pyro for instance may build up heat by using a fire 'cantrip' or taking fire damage. Heat could in turn be used to fuel bigger pyro effects which in turn would build more heat. After combat, heat would quickly dissipate.

A TK class could do something similar with kinetic energy. A telepath by feeding on the mental energy of other living beings or linking minds (quite fitting considering Mind Flayer lore).

If it ends up spells but not spells and even follows spellcasting progression like it did in 3.X I'll probably pass.

That's a really cool idea.

[Segev]

I don't think a "build-up" mechanic really works well as a psionics feel. Nothing in the kinds of fiction which present psionics, nor in prior game systems nor editions of this one, offers that as source material on it. And yes, I know "there's no precedent" doesn't stop every game, but in this case, we're not taking something that fits a setting conceit and inventing mechanics that are new and innovative to cover it. We're just making something up and slapping a term onto it.

This could be an interesting mechanic for, say, ki. Or another martial archetype subsystem. But psionics isn't really about "building up" a tempo or working yourself up through workout and effort. Psionics, if it's about working yourself up at all, tends to be an emotional surge thing, and "use this power for a while" doesn't really say that to me.