King of the Monster Manual?

[Giddonihah]

Its well known that the Tarrasque isn't entirely deserving of its CR30 placement, its too easily circumvented with its lack of ranged attacks and frankly its kind of boring. So the question I have is if not the Tarrasque then who? What is the ultimate big monster in the book? Taking into account Legendary abilities, Lair abilities and difficulty you would have defeating them.

One of the high CR planar creatures maybe? Or perhaps an Ancient Dragon. Or the CR 23 Emperyeon? Or the Sphinx and its Plot Device Lair.


My favorite contender is the kraken. CR 23, has an absurdly powerful regional lair effect, if a Kraken takes up residence in a coral reef you may as well give up on trying to approach it. Has a Land speed and can godzilla coastal cities just as well as a Tarrasque. It gets two ranged attacks in the form of lightning and throwing stuff. Its also scary smart with an Int of 22, it is officially smarter than any PC and it has telepathy.

What do you think is the actual strongest monster?

[Demonicattorney]

Empyreon is a pain in the ass. Its fast, has almost perfect saves, its attack stun, it has both legendary actions and legendary resistance, and the type of spell list where it can both escape or cause a lot of havoc, all at a huge save DC. Offensively, its not all that, but defensively its the stone colds, practically immune to magic.

It has more options than the Ancient Red Dragon, and its weaknesses are harder to discern, but less raw power (no 90 damage AE attack). Still, once it starts hitting people who aren't con save prof, it pretty much takes them out of the fight just with legendary actions.

[Rfkannen]

While I don't think it is techniqly possible, spellcasting red ancient shadow dracolich.

[Startouched]

My two picks are the Solar and the Ancient Shadow Gold Dragon (variant spellcaster).

The Solar has flight speed of 150ft and legendary action teleport, which combines well with his fantastic bow and healing capabilities to make him a really annoying foe to fight (especially if he can use his action to Dash midair for total movement of 300ft per turn + 120ft per turn)

The Ancient Shadow Gold Dragon may cast 9 different spells a day, each at 9th level. Combined with it's at-will shapechange and Frightful presence, this is easily the most terrifying foe in the handbook-especially if the thing ends up with Wish for versatility surpassing anything else in the Manual.

[archaeo]

While I don't think it is techniqly possible, spellcasting red ancient shadow dracolich.

The MM spells out how you can be a shadow dragon or a dracolich, not both at once. But yeah, my vote's on a spellcasting ancient red/gold shadow dragon. Even without wish, clone and teleport make for an enemy that won't be killed without some very serious work.

[Gnomes2169]

While I don't think it is techniqly possible, spellcasting red ancient shadow dracolich.

100% possible, actually. And it would be the most powerful MM creature...



I think that the Gold Shadow Dragon objectively beats out the Red Shadow Dragon. Spell slots are based off Charisma modifier, and the Red only has +6 whilst the Gold has a staggering +9, giving it 9 9th level spells a day.

Wait, nevermind, we found it. :smallbiggrin:

[Startouched]

I think that the Gold Shadow Dragon objectively beats out the Red Shadow Dragon. Spell slots are based off Charisma modifier, and the Red only has +6 whilst the Gold has a staggering +9, giving it 9 9th level spells a day.

[Rfkannen]

100% possible, actually. And it would be the most powerful MM creature...




Wait, nevermind, we found it. :smallbiggrin:

Now also make it a dracolich :3

[theduck]

Pretty sure a dracolich can't become shadow because it isn't a true dragon anymore and a shadow dragon isn't real enough to become a dracolich.

Though rule of cool may need to come into play...

[SaintRidley]

Dracolich or shadow, not both. As spelled out in the book.

But yes, give either Dracolich or shadow to a gold dragon (whichever seems more fun in the situation, doesn't much matter which) and go to town.

[Gnomes2169]

Pretty sure a dracolich can't become shadow because it isn't a true dragon anymore and a shadow dragon isn't real enough to become a dracolich.

Though rule of cool may need to come into play...

Ah, right... The RAW that makes everything less fun. If I'm using a dragon as an epic-level boss, I'ma have to ignore that.

... And then I realized, Shadow Dragon Tiamat. :3

[Startouched]

Pretty sure a dracolich can't become shadow because it isn't a true dragon anymore and a shadow dragon isn't real enough to become a dracolich.

Though rule of cool may need to come into play...

You are absolutely correct, the Manual explicitly states that the two cannot stack. Thus here are the top contenders for the Dragon Throne, in order of preference:

1: Ancient Golden Shadow Dragon: CR 27.


The top of the pack, with 9 9th level spells, change shape at will, Necrotic breath that can raise Shadows as well as immunity to fire and resistance to almost everything when in darkness. Horrifically powerful and versatile. For a spell list, I recommend Foresight, Wish, Meteor Swarm, Power Word Heal, Storm of Vengeance, Time Stop, Anti-Magic Field, Imprisonment and Gate, or something similar. Wish can be used to grant the thing a goddamn Clone to make things even worse.

2: Ancient Red Shadow Dragon: CR 27.


The pretender. A slightly worse Ancient Golden Shadow Dragon in every way, but with a third fewer spells. For a spell list, I recommend Foresight, Wish, Power Word Heal, Meteor Swarm, Imprisonment and Gate, or something similar. Wish can still be horrifically abused.

These are the ONLY two dragons in the book capable of casting 9th level spells. This means that all the dragons below this warning are far weaker than the master race pair.

3: Ancient Golden Dracolich: CR 25.

9 8th level spells is still nothing to sniff at. Long-term options are vastly limited now Wish is a no-show, but this thing is still a foe to fear.

Also, Shadow Tiamat seems pretty pointless even if one does consider it viable. Tiamat has such wonderful elemental versatility and a host of fantastic immunities that take away the big benefits of Shadow Dragon template. Plus, she already gets 10 9th level spells, so buffing her CR helps her not at all. That means she's getting Sunlight Sensitivity for almost no reason. Standard Tiamat is probably better.

[Gnomes2169]

Ah, good call on the shadow Tiamat... How about a dracolich Tiamat instead? Undead immunities on top of her regular immunities, a bit of a power boost from other various abilities (like never dying), without imposing sunlight sensitivity.

[Startouched]

Cool idea but fundamentally impossible. Upon death Tiamat's immediately vanishes back to the 9 hells. Rule of Cool aside, it wouldn't happen.

[BRKNdevil]

where can i get the stats for Tiamat that i keep on seeing? Is it only in the pay-for-adventure?

[Gnomes2169]

where can i get the stats for Tiamat that i keep on seeing? Is it only in the pay-for-adventure?

Currently only in the Rise of Tiamat adventure. I expect it to be ported into a Gods and Demigods handbook (or epic-level handbook, or a book with both) at a later date.

[Kyutaru]

Pff, Shadow Dragons can't be the top contenders... you just have a wizard use True Polymorph to turn himself into a sun.

THE LIGHT!! IT BURNS USSS!!!

Dragons aren't immune to Radiant damage, right?

[Startouched]

I think it's a pretty clear sign that you've won the game if your foe is forced to annihilate the planet in order to defeat you.

[Gnomes2169]

Pff, Shadow Dragons can't be the top contenders... you just have a wizard use True Polymorph to turn himself into a sun.

THE LIGHT!! IT BURNS USSS!!!

Dragons aren't immune to Radiant damage, right?

The instant he becomes the sun, the planet dies. Also, not sure true polly can make you into the sun unless your name is Lathander... Who's mantra might as well be, "BRO, DO YOU EVEN PRAISE?!"

[Startouched]

There's also the fact that the sun is gaseous, meaning it doesn't qualify as an object anyway.

[SaintRidley]

I think I'm going to keep dracolich Tiamat in reserve, though. Fits in a game I've got going.

[Startouched]

I think I'm going to keep dracolich Tiamat in reserve, though. Fits in a game I've got going.

Please share? I'd love to see what kind of 5e world is throwing around that kind of firepower! :)

[Kyutaru]

The instant he becomes the sun, the planet dies. Also, not sure true polly can make you into the sun unless your name is Lathander... Who's mantra might as well be, "BRO, DO YOU EVEN PRAISE?!"
Did it kill the dragon? Then my job is done, let the gods sort out the rest. :smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

Please share? I'd love to see what kind of 5e world is throwing around that kind of firepower! :)

One in which all the gods were killed by a mad lich who ascended to godhood by merging with magic itself in the process of becoming a demilich. She proceeded to kill all the other gods who had any power over her world and unleash an undead plague. The world's hostile and crawling with threats and it's not an easy place to get along in.

[Kyutaru]

That sounds an awful like the plot to Final Fantasy 7.

[SaintRidley]

That sounds an awful like the plot to Final Fantasy 7.

Never played it.

There's also the other half of the things going on, which is the Mind Flayers making their move to re-establish their empire once more.

[CyberThread]

Pssstt......


We can get super silly and add the templates in the back of the book.