On roleplaying in medieval Europe

[Jeivar]

I'm thinking of participating the Vampire: The Dark Ages kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-v20-dark-ages?ref=DTRPGMailer) and take another crack at ST-ing a medieval vampire game. Can anyone suggest a good resource for the general facts of life in, say, France or the Holy Roman Empire. I don't need thesis-level details, just enough so my players and I won't be going entirely by stereotypes and movies.

Y'know, religion, warfare, commerce, custom, craft...

[Madfellow]

Wikipedia, followed by Your Local Library.

Hope this helps. :smallsmile:

[TheCountAlucard]

Hopefully my suggestion of Debt: The First 5,000 Years is more helpful. David Graeber's book isn't about medieval Europe specifically (in fact, it goes out of its way to affirm that, no, American history classes, all of history is not limited to Western Europe and the Americas), but there's a good bit on it there nonetheless, and it's helpful in obtaining a more accurate view of how things like money, debt, barter, credit, banking, coins, loans, and trade actually worked (and didn't work!) at the time.

I know you said you don't want a thesis' worth of stuff, but really the degree to which our "understanding" of modern economics taints how we think finance worked in the ancient world is actually laughable.

[Anonymouswizard]

no, American history classes, all of history is not limited to Western Europe and the Americas

This just cracks me up, considering that in Britain we have the stereotype "Americans only think it was important if America was involvef", which we admit is untrue and unfair but still gives us a good laugh.

I can't offer anything specific or that helpful, especially if the campaign takes place outside England, as I dropped History after GCSE-level to concentrate on Maths and Science, but I can say the following:

Not all countries would be dictatorships, England has had a parliamentary system since at least 1100 (I think, do not quote me on this), and even severally limited the powers of the monarch in the 1600s (half the reason we didn't get rid of them completely is because of how is was easier to limit their powers than it would have been for a non-titled head of state). In any event, the person with the most power over you was your local lord.

Farmland wasn't neatly organised into fields which was a pain for growing croops (how did you know Jeff with the strip next to yours wasn't pinching some of your wheat?), and disastrous for breeding animals (they could just wander anywhere and breed with random, weaker animals).

Surgery was focused on speed, because due to the lack of a) anti-septic and b) anaesthesia you wanted to get it over with to reduce the pain and chance of infection. In addition medicine was severly limited, with most treatments either not working (oil for gunshot wounds), or being designed to deal with the evil spirit causing the mess. The majority of medical knowledge was also based on ancient Greek doctors.

Speaking of ancient Greece, the majority of people believed that they had amassed all the knowledge of the world during the Roman Empire, and so anything that went against the ancient Greek texts was thought to be wrong by the majority of scholars, even if you had evidence (the Greeks got a lot of their knowledge wrong, but THAT was due to thinking experiments were for slaves), until the Renaissance (my favourite historical period for games, shoving out Victorian England by a hair) was launched by people doing experiments and realising that humans only had one jaw-bone.

No sources I'm afraid, my studying this was years ago, but a few of the basics movies like to forget about.

[Aedilred]

I know you said you don't want a thesis' worth of stuff, but really the degree to which our "understanding" of modern economics taints how we think finance worked in the ancient world is actually laughable.

Indeed. It's important to keep in mind that credit in its current form is largely a modern phenomenon: some form of it had obviously been around for ages, but only in the 17th century or so did credit begin seriously to decouple itself from hard money.

Even Roman economics, by modern standards, were almost laughably "primitive".

[Spiryt]

Not all countries would be dictatorships, England has had a parliamentary system since at least 1100 (I think, do not quote me on this), and even severally limited the powers of the monarch in the 1600s (half the reason we didn't get rid of them completely is because of how is was easier to limit their powers than it would have been for a non-titled head of state). In any event, the person with the most power over you was your local lord.


Medieval monarchies were not 'dictatorships' and pretty much every roughly feudal entity in Europe has some kind of 'parliament', if only in shape of powerful land owners whose interests king/duke had to take into account.

"Power" over someone would depend on very many things, obviously, as usually, money and status would be most important.

[Aedilred]

T
Not all countries would be dictatorships, England has had a parliamentary system since at least 1100 (I think, do not quote me on this), and even severally limited the powers of the monarch in the 1600s (half the reason we didn't get rid of them completely is because of how is was easier to limit their powers than it would have been for a non-titled head of state). In any event, the person with the most power over you was your local lord.

Quoting you on this! :smalltongue:

During the Anglo-Danish era England developed a formidable centralised monarchy (probably the most powerful in western Europe in relative terms) but one which was consensually restricted by various charters which enshrined rights of some subjects (notably the nobility) - the most significant of these was the Coronation Charter of Henry I which was indeed in 1100. The king would call councils of the nobility and clergy to approve his decisions, although these were a fair way short of proper parliaments, really more like modern cabinet meetings. The Normans variously continued or ignored English tradition in this respect, and the nobility gradually gained more power during the late Norman and early Plantagenet era, which led to Magna Carta and the Baron's Wars. The first proper parliaments were called in the 1260s by de Montfort and continued under Edward I and the later Plantagenets.

The presence of a parliament didn't itself refute absolutism either. From the late 14th century onwards England operated on essentially a proto-absolutist basis at least some of the time (particularly under Richard II, Henry V and the Tudors). When Charles I dismissed Parliament and didn't call it for ten years that was largely unprecedented, but not illegal. There were not dissimilar parliamentary systems across western Europe, some of them rather better developed (in the Aragonese territories, particularly, and Venice) but these fell into disuse or were suppressed after the mid-seventeenth century, while in Britain the parliament succeeded in overthrowing the king and establishing itself as at least an element of the fount of authority (although disputes about that would rumble on until 1689 and in some senses until the extinction of the Jacobites).

[Jeff the Green]

This just cracks me up, considering that in Britain we have the stereotype "Americans only think it was important if America was involvef", which we admit is untrue and unfair but still gives us a good laugh.

No, it's fair. In fact, my entire 3rd- and 4th-grade Social Studies curriculum was on my state's history. My 8th-grade social studies was on American history from pre-columbium to the 1970s, my freshman history class was called "Western Civilization", my junior one "US History", and my senior one "European History". I only got history of other places 6th and 7th (primarily Near East, Middle East, China, and Japan), and from what I understand I only got those at a more than cursory level was because I went to a charter school.

Anyway, I'd recommend reading some fiction set in those times. Start with Beowulf and Chaucer. I also like Doomsday Book by Connie Willis.

[TheThan]

Wikipedia, followed by Your Local Library.

Hope this helps. :smallsmile:

Totally agree.

Plus you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of different cultures in Europe; so local customs in say Normandy wasn’t the same as they were in Germany and Sweden. So you need to study up on the cultures you’re looking at emulating.


This just cracks me up, considering that in Britain we have the stereotype "Americans only think it was important if America was involvef", which we admit is untrue and unfair but still gives us a good laugh.

But it is only important if America (F**K Yeah) is involved! :smallbiggrin:


Indeed. It's important to keep in mind that credit in its current form is largely a modern phenomenon: some form of it had obviously been around for ages, but only in the 17th century or so did credit begin seriously to decouple itself from hard money.

Even Roman economics, by modern standards, were almost laughably "primitive".

There was something called “debtor’s prison” if you couldn’t pay back your loan (to another person usually), that person could have you arrested and thrown in jail. Debtor’s prison screwed you over royally, because if you were locked up, you can’t work, if you can’t work you can’t earn money to pay your debts and get out of jail.

In fact, we still have them today… people get locked up for outstanding debt, not paying child support, fines, back taxes etc all the time. That's the entire point why repo-men exist; because people can't or won't pay off their debts. So they come and take "their" stuff away.

[Spiryt]

There was something called “debtor’s prison” if you couldn’t pay back your loan (to another person usually), that person could have you arrested and thrown in jail. Debtor’s prison screwed you over royally, because if you were locked up, you can’t work, if you can’t work you can’t earn money to pay your debts and get out of jail.

In fact, we still have them today… people get locked up for outstanding debt, not paying child support, fines, back taxes etc all the time. That's the entire point why repo-men exist; because people can't or won't pay off their debts. So they come and take "their" stuff away.

Actually, debtor's who couldn't pay were historically one of the major sources of slaves from Antiquity up to Late Medieval period in Europe, Mediterranean area etc.

So more practical solution, perhaps not for debtor though.

[Dienekes]

I'm thinking of participating the Vampire: The Dark Ages kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-v20-dark-ages?ref=DTRPGMailer) and take another crack at ST-ing a medieval vampire game. Can anyone suggest a good resource for the general facts of life in, say, France or the Holy Roman Empire. I don't need thesis-level details, just enough so my players and I won't be going entirely by stereotypes and movies.

Y'know, religion, warfare, commerce, custom, craft...

Ok, first things first. The medieval period was about a thousand years long, and went through a lot of changes in religion, warfare, commerce, custom, craft, and a crapload more.

The Dark Ages is a strange inaccurate term that has come to mean either the entire medieval period or just (roughly) until the 10th century, or until the Renaissance (a thoroughly inaccurate term if you ask me) depending who you ask. And even picking the smallest of those periods (5th to 10th century) we see the migration period the formation of large kingdoms and a whole bunch of other stuff.

So, I would ask first, pick a specific century. They're all pretty full on unique events and cultures, it's hard to go wrong.

[Grim Portent]

There was something called “debtor’s prison” if you couldn’t pay back your loan (to another person usually), that person could have you arrested and thrown in jail. Debtor’s prison screwed you over royally, because if you were locked up, you can’t work, if you can’t work you can’t earn money to pay your debts and get out of jail.

In fact, we still have them today… people get locked up for outstanding debt, not paying child support, fines, back taxes etc all the time. That's the entire point why repo-men exist; because people can't or won't pay off their debts. So they come and take "their" stuff away.

An additional note on debtor's prisons was that you sometimes had to pay rent depending on the time period and nation in question.

Normal prisons would also require rent.

This lead to a feedback loop of: go to prison for outstanding debts -> all money you acquire later goes to paying off prison debt -> can't afford home -> arrested for vagrancy and inability to pay debts -> repeat cycle.

[Kiero]

Actually, debtor's who couldn't pay were historically one of the major sources of slaves from Antiquity up to Late Medieval period in Europe, Mediterranean area etc.

So more practical solution, perhaps not for debtor though.

Which could extend, in the Hellenistic and Roman period, to an entire city being enslaved en masse to pay their debts. Invariably taxes that some venal governor decided they wanted paying up front and several years in advance.

[TheThan]

An additional note on debtor's prisons was that you sometimes had to pay rent depending on the time period and nation in question.

Normal prisons would also require rent.

This lead to a feedback loop of: go to prison for outstanding debts -> all money you acquire later goes to paying off prison debt -> can't afford home -> arrested for vagrancy and inability to pay debts -> repeat cycle.

Yeah, same thing with slaves and indentured servitude; Tenessee Ernie Ford (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRh0QiXyZSk) bemoans about it.

[Jeivar]

So, I would ask first, pick a specific century. They're all pretty full on unique events and cultures, it's hard to go wrong.

The game is set in the thirteenth century.

[Mr Beer]

The Church was extremely powerful. Bishops would be better thought of as "warlords" rather than "some plump guy in a fancy robe".

People were superstitious and highly religious to a degree that seems silly to modern eyes.

Everyone knew their place. Society was extremely hierarchical and people knew who you were and what your place was by your clothing. Clothes were a form of uniform. Rich people who weren't nobles couldn't just buy the kind of clothes nobles wore, that would get them in trouble.

Men went around armed. The only men who weren't armed were slaves. Tavern brawls were extremely dangerous, belligerent drunks and broadswords don't mix well. Citizens would be required to gather together and defend towns in times of trouble, hence the need for weapons.

Murderhobos would be outlaws almost immediately and subject to summary execution by anyone.

Swords were not preferred battlefield weapons. You want something that will punch through armour (like a nice pollaxe) or ignore maille (like a mace).

[Aedilred]

The game is set in the thirteenth century.

The thirteenth century was when Europe was approaching one of its cultural and socio-economic peaks prior to the long cycle of major wars and plagues that wrecked everything in the fourteenth century. Catholic Europe, that is. Without wanting to get too much into the religious elements of it for obvious reasons, Orthodox, Muslim and <other> Europe - many of which in many respects had been more advanced until that point - were either in the process of having the stuffing knocked out of them by each other/crusaders/Mongols or were recovering from having the stuffing knocked out of them by the above. And the process of knocking the stuffing out of them was a large part of what enriched Catholic Europe. The kingdom of France got a shot in the arm from the suppression and conquest of Cathar Longuedoc. Venice got a major boost from the sack of Constaninople. The Spanish kingdoms were rolling over the Taifa kingdoms and picking up a lot of what they had to offer (including a lot of educated people). The climate was good and the population grew.

Of course, it's more complicated than that. Disputes between the Pope (who was at the peak of his power in the early thirteenth century) and the Emperor were simultaneously putting money in pockets in Italy and Germany and tearing them apart. Scotland nearly failed completely as an independent kingdom. But in general it was one of the bigger boom periods of pre-modern western European history, certainly the most since the Carolingian Renaissance, and arguably since the fall of Rome.

[Milodiah]

No, it's fair. In fact, my entire 3rd- and 4th-grade Social Studies curriculum was on my state's history. My 8th-grade social studies was on American history from pre-columbium to the 1970s, my freshman history class was called "Western Civilization", my junior one "US History", and my senior one "European History". I only got history of other places 6th and 7th (primarily Near East, Middle East, China, and Japan), and from what I understand I only got those at a more than cursory level was because I went to a charter school.

Anyway, I'd recommend reading some fiction set in those times. Start with Beowulf and Chaucer. I also like Doomsday Book by Connie Willis.

The Napoleonic Wars weren't covered in my high school history classes. Just saying.

[Jeff the Green]

The thirteenth century was when Europe was approaching one of its cultural and socio-economic peaks prior to the long cycle of major wars and plagues that wrecked everything in the fourteenth century. Catholic Europe, that is. Without wanting to get too much into the religious elements of it for obvious reasons, Orthodox, Muslim and <other> Europe - many of which in many respects had been more advanced until that point - were either in the process of having the stuffing knocked out of them by each other/crusaders/Mongols or were recovering from having the stuffing knocked out of them by the above. And the process of knocking the stuffing out of them was a large part of what enriched Catholic Europe. The kingdom of France got a shot in the arm from the suppression and conquest of Cathar Longuedoc. Venice got a major boost from the sack of Constaninople. The Spanish kingdoms were rolling over the Taifa kingdoms and picking up a lot of what they had to offer (including a lot of educated people). The climate was good and the population grew.

Of course, it's more complicated than that. Disputes between the Pope (who was at the peak of his power in the early thirteenth century) and the Emperor were simultaneously putting money in pockets in Italy and Germany and tearing them apart. Scotland nearly failed completely as an independent kingdom. But in general it was one of the bigger boom periods of pre-modern western European history, certainly the most since the Carolingian Renaissance, and arguably since the fall of Rome.

It was also the end of the Medieval Warm Period, during which time crop yield was unusually high, allowing for greater urbanization, economic specialization, and prosperity. Kinda sucked to be a serf, though; since there were so many and you didn't need as many to work the land to get the same amount of food, their lords were even more free to mistreat you than usual.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Obviously not quite what you're looking for, but I imagine The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England (http://www.amazon.com/Time-Travelers-Guide-Medieval-England/dp/1439112908) would still be useful.

[Aedilred]

Obviously not quite what you're looking for, but I imagine The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England (http://www.amazon.com/Time-Travelers-Guide-Medieval-England/dp/1439112908) would still be useful.

I would second this. It is very accessible, packed with useful "ground-level" information that can be tedious and difficult to track down elsewhere, and given its focus is on the fourteenth century it's not a million miles away from the time period you're looking at. Obviously it is England-specific and England is a bit weird in comparison to much of the rest of Europe, but so's everywhere in its way.

[endoperez]

The game is set in the thirteenth century.

As it happens, Ars Magica is also set at the same time, and the game's setting books are famously very light on rules and heavy on fluff. Of course, some of the fluff includes fictional wizards and their fictional civil war, but still... might be worth looking into, if you can find the books for cheap.

I read the book on Great Britain, Heirs to Merlin: The Stonehenge Tribunal, and I don't think it mentioned any rules explicitly, or even statted out any of the NPCs.

[GraaEminense]

Many good observations and pointers here, but I´ll have to third the notion that you need to do your own research and Wikipedia is your friend. If you have chosen 13th Century Europe, you obviously have some interest in the setting. Time to sit down with a notepad and go down the rabbit hole of Wikipedia links, a few hours of clicking on the blue text and googling things Wikipedia doesn´t clear up for you will be more worthwhile than weeks of this thread.

Pick a country and go from there. Remember that social structure, governing bodies, lawmakers and law enforcers and economy are more important for the setting than wars and kings.

[Spiryt]

Everyone knew their place. Society was extremely hierarchical and people knew who you were and what your place was by your clothing. Clothes were a form of uniform. Rich people who weren't nobles couldn't just buy the kind of clothes nobles wore, that would get them in trouble.



That highly depended on place and circumstances.


But mostly wasn't true at all. All those 'dress codes' were usually impossible to 'enforce'.

'Place', uniform hierarchy is in general not accurate way to look at it.

Most people simply *were* who they were.

Differences in mentality, social circles, upbringing between wandering herder, rural peasant, plebian in town's commune, patrician, poor knight, feudal lord would be very large.

Ordinary peasant passing as lord was simply impossible, no matter how well dressed was he.

Changing of that 'status', was therefore rather 'holistic' process, so significant social advance, required, like always, individual with huge amounts of energy and determination/ingenuousness.

[Tyrrell]

Having been a huge fan of Ars Magica for decades I found that the single most enlightening book on medieval history I've ever encountered was my wife's old medieval history textbook. It was easy to read and didn't assume that I had any background on the subject.

This makes sense, the target audience for Medieval history 101 is a group of 19 year olds trying to get their liberal education requirements checked off with only moderate effort while they really engage themselves trying to attract the affection of other 19 year olds and have fun. These books (or at least the one that I read) are seriously optimized to present the relevant information with as much clarity as the written word with full color illustrations can manage.

I'd spent 15 years fiddling around with life in a medieval [thing], biographies, books on specific events, and ars magica supplements . A few hours with an honest to goodness textbook and I picked up more than I had in the past decade. Old used textbooks are generally less expensive than moldy potatoes as well. I don't think that you'll do worse with the 80's, 90's version then with the brand new umpteenth edition.

[IslandDog]

Don't forget about the monastic orders - at its height, Cluny controlled over 1000 monasteries, and if someone wanted to join they donated their tracts of land. The abbots were basically minor kings. So yeah, religion was pretty up there in terms of power.

[Milodiah]

Don't forget about the monastic orders - at its height, Cluny controlled over 1000 monasteries, and if someone wanted to join they donated their tracts of land. The abbots were basically minor kings. So yeah, religion was pretty up there in terms of power.

Also, if for some reason your players had some inexplicable fixation on playing someone literate, monasteries would be their best bet. Cloistered monks weren't all the stereotypical hooded-burlap-robes, never-leave-the-compound types; as previously stated, just take a look at the one mocked described in Canterbury Tales, he actually sounds far more like a typical player character than the average peasant.

Also, I recall a History Channel documentary on the implications of night in the medieval era, which I found very interesting. We scarcely appreciate how badly society used to grind to a halt before oil lamps and lightbulbs were invented; it wasn't just vampires and other fairy tales that made people bar their windows and literally wake up to inspect their perimeter defenses around midnight. And of course illumination before oil lamps meant fire, and fire doesn't mix well with wooden buildings.

[fusilier]

I'm thinking of participating the Vampire: The Dark Ages kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-v20-dark-ages?ref=DTRPGMailer) and take another crack at ST-ing a medieval vampire game. Can anyone suggest a good resource for the general facts of life in, say, France or the Holy Roman Empire. I don't need thesis-level details, just enough so my players and I won't be going entirely by stereotypes and movies.

Y'know, religion, warfare, commerce, custom, craft...

You might want to take a look at the "Daily Life" series by Greenwood press. I've read the "Daily Life in Renaissance Italy", and found it very informative. It's a light treatment, but the bibliographies at the end of each section are useful if you are interested in further study.

Specifically you might want to look at:
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Europe-Greenwood-Through-History/dp/0313360766/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1414473452&sr=1-1&keywords=Daily+Life+in+Medieval+Europe

There also the works by Joseph Gies and Frances Gies:
Life in a Medieval Castle
Life in a Medieval Village
Life in a Medieval City

They're a bit dated and I've heard a few complaints, but they serve as good introductions to the subjects (I've only read the City one).

[Spiryt]

Also, I recall a History Channel documentary on the implications of night in the medieval era, which I found very interesting. We scarcely appreciate how badly society used to grind to a halt before oil lamps and lightbulbs were invented; it wasn't just vampires and other fairy tales that made people bar their windows and literally wake up to inspect their perimeter defenses around midnight. And of course illumination before oil lamps meant fire, and fire doesn't mix well with wooden buildings.

This is very good point, and it's worth emphasizing on how much 'modern' lighting had changed societies, and like they often don't realize.

Humans 'playing the Sun' screws around with their natural rhythms, hormones, and other mechanisms:

http://slumberwise.com/science/your-ancestors-didnt-sleep-like-you/

http://www.damninteresting.com/shortness-of-dark/

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_science/the_big_sleep_part_ii

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: This is probably not the forum to ask for real world religion or political information. Those topics are prohibited here, regardless of era or civility.

So while there's some stuff responsive to the OP that could be discussed, mostly this thread seems to be headed down inappropriate paths.