The kurt Cobain death conspiracy

[zeratul]

Hi I was wondering what you guys thought about the conspiracy over Cobains death. Especially you Nirvana fans (Zombie Rockstar im looking at you). The more i hear about it the more i think Courtny love killed him.

[ZombieRockStar]

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g144/AngryBalrog/zCobain.gif
*Zombie Cobain realizes that people are looking at him and runs to hide*

Yeah, I've heard all the conspiracy theories. For me, really, they essentially amount to "Elvis shops at Wal-Mart" theories and this weird hatred of Courtney Love that I have never been able to understand. Really, why would everyone be involved? The police, the media, everyone...?

He was very obviously self-destructive. His pre-death behaviour had "suicide" written all over it. (Well, from what I can tell. I was only 8 years old at the time...)

Now, as to whether Sid killed Nancy, there's a conspiracy theory worth discussing.

[zeratul]

I have no bias here. I just looked at the facts and found that they pointed at murder.

[ZombieRockStar]

I'm not a forensic investigator, so I can't really draw a conclusion from media heresay. Especially when it says something so easily contestible as "you can't shoot a gun with that much heroin in your blood."

[ElfLad]

Kurt Cobain actually faked his death and is currently mixing up the album of all time with John Lennon, and they recently signed up Brad Delp for vocals.

Due to be released in 2012.

[Khantalas]

Elvis Presley is also the producer, you know. I hear talks with James Dean for him to be on the album cover is still on.

[Jack_Banzai]

I was a teenager, a Nirvana fan and perfectly clear-headed when Kurt bought it and I don't really have any trouble believing that he killed himself. He was an addict, prone to severe bouts of depression and had a lot of trouble just making it through every day. It's perfectly obvious that Courtney Love has benefited a lot from Kurt's death, but I don't think that necessarily points to his being murdered. He would have been an even bigger gravy train for her had he remained alive and productive.

[J_Muller]

Kurt Cobain actually faked his death and is currently mixing up the album of all time with John Lennon, and they recently signed up Brad Delp for vocals.

Due to be released in 2012.

Don't forget Bon Scott and Keith Moon.

[Midnight Son]

This is gonna be callous, but I'm glad I don't have to listen to his music anymore. I'm sorry for those who loved him and hope he managed to find peace. I certainly did.

[Amotis]

Why don't you have to listen to it now? When he was alive did he come over to your house and force you to listen to him? And now that he's dead he can't do it anymore?

[Midnight Son]

Why don't you have to listen to it now? When he was alive did he come over to your house and force you to listen to him? And now that he's dead he can't do it anymore?When he was alive all my friends thought he was the second coming of...some famous musician person. If I wanted to be around them, I listened to the music they liked. I don't live in a bubble. They don't listen to him as much (if at all) now.

[J_Muller]

When he was alive all my friends thought he was the second coming of...some famous musician person. If I wanted to be around them, I listened to the music they liked. I don't live in a bubble.

...this is so very wrong, but I suddenly have the image in my head of Elvis on the cross.

[Amotis]

Why does someone's death end the famousness of their music? I don't understand.

[The Demented One]

Kurt Cobain actually faked his death and is currently mixing up the album of all time with John Lennon, and they recently signed up Brad Delp for vocals.

Due to be released in 2012.
But how can it compete with the new Jim Morrison/Tupac album?

[Midnight Son]

It doesn't, but you may notice that bands that aren't in front of the media all the time get less play on people's playlist. I'm sure that, as a musician, it's different for you, but when's the last time you heard someone blasting Creedence Clearwater or some such older band. There really are few bands that stand the test of time. This is especially true of bands that didn't last long or only had one or two CDs.

[Amotis]

Today. But I'm a lame example as I know too many music people.

Yeah but have your forgotten how huge Nirvana is? Have you seen the t-shirts? HAVE YOU!?!?!

Irony aside, they're still very much played. I never listen to plain mainstream rock radio except at work when we're closing and I don't have a choice, and I hear Nirvana everytime. Nirvana are legends in the music culture, just look at how people place 'em beside people like lennon or elvis. I don't think you can escape 'em man, even if he's dead.

[Raistlin1040]

It doesn't, but you may notice that bands that aren't in front of the media all the time get less play on people's playlist. I'm sure that, as a musician, it's different for you, but when's the last time you heard someone blasting Creedence Clearwater or some such older band. There really are few bands that stand the test of time. This is especially true of bands that didn't last long or only had one or two CDs.
Pink Floyd? Ozzy Osbourne? The Smashing Pumpkins? Derek and the Dominoes? All get at least as much play time on my MP3 as Green Day, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and Three Days Grace. Just because a band isn't in the spotlight, doesn't mean people still don't listen to them.

[Midnight Son]

Today. But I'm a lame example as I know too many music people.

Yeah but have your forgotten how huge Nirvana is? Have you seen the t-shirts? HAVE YOU!?!?!

Irony aside, they're still very much played. I never listen to plain mainstream rock radio except at work when we're closing and I don't have a choice, and I hear Nirvana everytime. Nirvana are legends in the music culture, just look at how people place 'em beside people like lennon or elvis. I don't think you can escape 'em man, even if he's dead.
Funny. I don't listen to much mainstream radio either, but I have managed to not hear his Makes-me-want-to-club-baby-seals voice in some time.

I probably shouldn't be so spiteful, but I really detested his music. I know many thought he was a rock god or something. I just found him grating.

Also, Lennon was a hack. (That's a joke. I liked him and feel that he really did die before his time)

[ElfLad]

But how can it compete with the new Jim Morrison/Tupac album?

They've got Bonham on drums, and Harrison is contributing a few songs.

The negotiations with Hendrix are still unfinished, but I'm pretty sure they can agree on something.

[Hades]

They've got Bonham on drums, and Harrison is contributing a few songs.

The negotiations with Hendrix are still unfinished, but I'm pretty sure they can agree on something.

If there's a rock and roll heaven, you know they got one hell of a band...

[ZombieRockStar]

The Lennon-Cobain duo might be more commercially successful, but the Jeff Buckley-Johnny Cash album that will be the more critically acclaimed.

[Midnight Son]

The Lennon-Cobain duo might be more commercially successful, but the Jeff Buckley-Johnny Cash album that will be the more critically acclaimed.
yeah, but I wanna hear the Lennon-Cash album. Beethoven will compose. (or is that decompose now?):smallyuk:

[FdL]

Why does someone's death end the famousness of their music? I don't understand.

That's how you know that people don't really care about the music itself :s Sure, they are considered geniuses, but if they hadn't died they wouldn't be so revered.

[Nightmarenny]

Why does someone's death end the famousness of their music? I don't understand.All I have to say is my age group(16-17) still listens to Nirvana alot. Its not some sort of obsession because he died. But it goes on our playlist about as much as most and I know alot of people with Nirvana shirts. We were probably all under five when he died so I think thats pretty good popularity. Though we also listen to The Beatles and Ac/DC alot so it might just be the group...

P.S.How can you know they wouldn't be respected? From what I understand Nirvana was huge alive. National acclaim, voice of a generation and all that. Thats pretty big.

[TinSoldier]

Kurt Cobain is writing songs for Janis Joplin now. They're even planning a duet.

[ElfLad]

All I have to say is my age group(16-17) still listens to Nirvana alot. Its not some sort of obsession because he died. But it goes on our playlist about as much as most and I know alot of people with Nirvana shirts. We were probably all under five when he died so I think thats pretty good popularity. Though we also listen to The Beatles and Ac/DC alot so it might just be the group...

Eh, I know a lot of "young folks" that are "hip to" the Classic Rock "scene," me being one of them.
Although I've only started to get into Nirvana recently, so I only have four of their songs.

[TinSoldier]

Eh, I know a lot of "young folks" that are "hip to" the Classic Rock "scene," me being one of them.Man, I like Nirvana as much as the next guy, but calling them "Classic Rock" makes baby goblins cry.

Give it another ten years and maybe.

[Amotis]

Since when does time change genres? Nirvana was and always will be grunge.

and we don't care about the young folks
talkin' bout the young style
and we don't care about the old folks
talkin' 'bout the old style too
and we don't care about our own faults
talkin' 'bout our own style
all we care about is talking
talking only me and you

[ElfLad]

Man, I like Nirvana as much as the next guy, but calling them "Classic Rock" makes baby goblins cry.

Give it another ten years and maybe.

I was referring to them talking about the Beatles and AC/DC, but I can see where you could get confused. I don't consider Nirvana Classic Rock, and I actually get mad at my friend when he calls Duran Duran Classic Rock. Although I suppose we're reaching the point where 80s bands count.

[Midnight Son]

Since when does time change genres? Nirvana was and always will be grunge.

and we don't care about the young folks
talkin' bout the young style
and we don't care about the old folks
talkin' 'bout the old style too
and we don't care about our own faults
talkin' 'bout our own style
all we care about is talking
talking only me and you So Rock from the 70s was always called classic rock? I was fairly young then, but I seem to recall otherwise. That said, I agree. You cannot call grunge anything but grunge. There is good grunge and crap grunge, but it is still grunge

[Amotis]

There's certainly a period and a number of bands that we can call classic rock. Yeah, I know we didn't call it then but my point was that genre names don't reappear again just because it's becoming 'classic' or whatnot.

There was good grunge?!?!

I kid (kinda), and I'm kinda surprised at how different each of the four powerhouses of grunge (Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains) all had a really different sound from each other. Not that they were good all then time (or almost never) but hey, kinda decent for a genre that liked plaid :smallwink:

[TinSoldier]

Hey, I actually like grunge! I think it will be called classic rock one of these days. "Classic Rock" is kind of a catch-all term anyway. Like classic cars. Stuff gets added to the category all the time.

[Amotis]

Classic rock is basically a radio designation. It's pretty specific too. Guns N' Roses being the latest band they probably play and The Beatles and The Stones probably the earliest. Grunge is pretty removed from that stuff just like they don't play the folk/woodstock/singer songwriters or the funk rock that were both going on at that same time, just doesn't fit the bill.

[Nightmarenny]

As time goes by I think that "Classicl rock" will be whatever older people listen to. SO anything thats hot today give it 20 years and it may be played on CR stantions.

[Amotis]

I doubt it. There still will be alternative stations and indie stations as well as new stations championing new genres. I watch it happen today. Late 80's and 90's bands aren't assimilating into classic rock stations, they have their own and even with all the new stations and music coming out, those 80's and 90's music is keeping their own.

[Midnight Son]

There's certainly a period and a number of bands that we can call classic rock. Yeah, I know we didn't call it then but my point was that genre names don't reappear again just because it's becoming 'classic' or whatnot.

There was good grunge?!?!

I kid (kinda), and I'm kinda surprised at how different each of the four powerhouses of grunge (Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains) all had a really different sound from each other. Not that they were good all then time (or almost never) but hey, kinda decent for a genre that liked plaid :smallwink:Of those four, Pearl Jam was the best. Some of their stuff blew, but it was mostly good. Soundgarden was decent. Nirvana sucked all the time( as I have so eloquently stated before). Alice in Chains?...Meh. Just my opinion, but it's the only one that matters to me, hey.

[Amotis]

Pearl Jam's ten album is good. Black and Jeremy are always decent tunes. Alice In Chains was pretty decent, I'll put them second after Nirvana, as Layne had a beautiful voice and Jerry could harmonize very well with him and I love their unplugged session. Soundgarden...is soundgarden...

Well Nirvana, I think they're a stand point band and that even through all the over hype and the yelling and the t-shirts, they had some decent tunes. Nevermind is a great album and I love to shove it in to indie hipster's faces. But I always liked their unplugged session more though. Oh well.

edito - oh and candlebox is win.

[Midnight Son]

I'll give them the "helped define a generation" label. No question Nirvana had a huge impact on teens and twenties in the 90's. That includes me by the way. It was just a negative impact on my part.

I preferred Soul Asylum, though I'm not sure they were actually grunge per se.

[Spartan_Samuel]

I find that how the person died really doesn't matter, nor why. It's the music they made that matters. That's the only conspiracy. He conspired with his guitar to entertain the masses, and he did just that. He was an accomplished man.

[Turcano]

It doesn't, but you may notice that bands that aren't in front of the media all the time get less play on people's playlist. I'm sure that, as a musician, it's different for you, but when's the last time you heard someone blasting Creedence Clearwater or some such older band. There really are few bands that stand the test of time. This is especially true of bands that didn't last long or only had one or two CDs.

You apparently don't listen to oldies stations, because they play Creedence Clearwater Revival quite frequently. Although they usually only play about five of their songs ("Proud Mary," "Bad Moon Rising," "Down on the Corner," "Born on the Bayou," and their cover of "I Heard It through the Grapevine").

[FdL]

The label "Classic rock" is not used to designate anything that is X years old, it doesn't work that way. There's no way Nirvana could ever be considered Classic Rock. (Heh, reminds me of those Futurama jokes :p)
Many diverse musical currents coexist at the same time, so it's just not valid to say "anything from the 70's is classic rock". I'm probably among the few who make a broader use of the term "alternative" to include stuff as back as the 60's.

With time, arbitrary labels like "baggy", shoegazer", "college rock" or the aforementioned "grunge" lose their meaning. Let's remember that these labels are crafted and/or sponsored by the press to attempt to classify and promote a particular bunch of bands (probably record companies have something to do with this).

Then again, they are often associated with a stereotypical sound or artist, so to some extent you can have "grunge" bands today (all crap, because they're just imitating a style instead of creating

I was thinking today of punk and "new wave", and what did the term mean at its inception and what meant later into the 80's. I was thinking specifically of Blondie. Most of the stuff I've heard of them is just too commercial and "pop" sounding, yet their earliest material could be called punk.
Then, with bands like their contemporaries Talking Heads, you really can't call them either new wave or punk, they were clearly something else.
Even though the original punk scene was broader and more diverse than just The Ramones' buzzsaw rock & roll, it got distorted and locked into that in the UK; the early NY scene is what I call punk and it's about creativity and true anti-stablishment unlike later when it's an aesthetic you can adhere to.

This goes to show that you can't really trust those labels to be descriptive or exhaustive. The term "grunge" bunched a lot of bands that had not much in common besides having loud guitars and emerging from the american underground. But the american underground movement ran deeper, and previous labels like early 80's "New American Rock" or sth for bands like Husker Du, Replacements, Meat Puppets, R.E.M. etc proved to be as shallow and innacurate. And later "alternative (rock)" and to some extent "indie" today.

I don't think there were so many good bands in the grunge era. I never liked Pearl Jam a lot, I think their first two albums are decent, with a couple of great songs. Soundgarden and Alice never got my attention. I agree with Amotis about the vocal harmonies and unplugged of Alice in Chains.

And IMHO Soul Asylum was a Replacements ripoff.





and we don't care about the young folks
talkin' bout the young style
and we don't care about the old folks
talkin' 'bout the old style too
and we don't care about our own faults
talkin' 'bout our own style
all we care about is talking
talking only me and you

Sweet ^^ I like that song. I thought the album could be good, but there wasn't much more in it that called my attention.

[zeratul]

interesting how this turned into a "what is classic rock?" argument

[ray53208]

This is gonna be callous, but I'm glad I don't have to listen to his music anymore. I'm sorry for those who loved him and hope he managed to find peace. I certainly did.

i was really into nirvana for about 2 weeks in 1992. then i got over it, like the flu. afterwards i had no desire to listen to anything until the foo fighters came out. now i can listen to nirvana again, but i only like a few songs.

[Morty]

It's simple. He shot himself after he heard Smells Like Teen Spirit Techno Remix. It drove poor guy mad.

[Abacab]

Apparently, Mr. Cobain didn't enjoy the pressure of being famous and being dubbed the, "voice of his generation". He liked being an underground artist.

Or maybe he had a messed up mind.

There are probably so many reasons why he killed himself (if he did).

[Tormsskull]

interesting how this turned into a "what is classic rock?" argument

Yeah, that's always going to happen unless you ask people really nicely & give them specific things to talk about. But then you run the risk of your thread dieing because nobody wants to talk about exactly what you want to talk about.

FWIW - I don't think Cobain was murdered. I think it was all legit the way it has been shown i.e. suicide. In the words of Rick James on the Chapelle Show: "Cocaine is a helluva drug." I don't know specifically what Cobain was using, but I'm sure it was a major contributor to his suicide.

[zeratul]

This is gonna be callous, but I'm glad I don't have to listen to his music anymore. I'm sorry for those who loved him and hope he managed to find peace. I certainly did.

you my friend are what we call a cold hearted jack-ass

[Midnight Son]

you my friend are what we call a cold hearted jack-assI do not even deny it in this instance. When it comes to some music I'm just mean. I would say I'm generally good hearted and laid back. but, yeah...
http://www.illustrationweb.com/images200/9340172-27377.jpg

[zeratul]

I do not even deny it in this instance. When it comes to some music I'm just mean. I would say I'm generally good hearted and laid back. but, yeah...
http://www.illustrationweb.com/images200/9340172-27377.jpg

oh and i meant no offense by the way :smallwink:

[Caillach]

I have no bias here. I just looked at the facts and found that they pointed at murder.

Care to elaborate :smallconfused:

[Amotis]

FACT: Rock conspiracies are always cooler if they involve murder.

FACT: Ignore all contrary things to achieve this.

[zeratul]

-his arms were to short to have held the gun to himself and shot himself, and he could not have done it with his toes (he had shoes on)

-the amount of heroine in his boddy at the time would have prevented him at the time from firing a gun

-his fingerprints were not found on the gun ,"suicide" note, or the pen used to write it (he was not wearing gloves)

-his friends say that only the last two lines of the note read like a suicide note. Some of them belive someone else may have written the last two.

thats why I think it was murder.

[Daze]

-his arms were to short to have held the gun to himself and shot himself, and he could not have done it with his toes (he had shoes on)

-the amount of heroine in his boddy at the time would have prevented him at the time from firing a gun

-his fingerprints were not found on the gun ,"suicide" note, or the pen used to write it (he was not wearing gloves)

-his friends say that only the last two lines of the note read like a suicide note. Some of them belive someone else may have written the last two.

thats why I think it was murder.

No offense intended, but where did you get those facts? I remember quite clearly when cobain died and have done some follow up research in the years since. "His arms were too short"?? I dont know if you've ever held a shotgun, but unless you had dwarfism (no gitp pun intended) it's quite easy to aim a shot gun at one's self.
"had too much heroin in his system" Again.. I would dispute that. Unless he was in a heroin coma, he'd be quite capable. Many heroin addicts (particulary ones that dont have a 9-5 job..independently wealthy) function, while not "well, fairly normally... cobain I'm sure had a high amount in his system, he was a rock star after all... but as long as he wasnt "sleeping" (heroin spiral).. he'd been able to do it.

cant comment on the suicide note or fingerprints... havent heard anything about that. But certainly interesting if true...

[Amotis]

Never heard anything about the fingerprint either. I do remember the main dude who's making money off of this murder conspiracy thing trying to explain why there WAS fingerprints but not much after that.

But yeah, heroin effects everyone differently. As does people who have developed and used it a long time, like Cobain. Drugs are anything but predictable.

[Daze]

Drugs are anything but predictable.

heh, that'd make a good sig...

Very true though, heroin is the worst of the worst of all drugs... some people it kills fairly quickly, others can hang on for a fairly long life... depends...

DONT DO DRUGS
*end service announcement*

[Nightmarenny]

No offense intended, but where did you get those facts? I remember quite clearly when cobain died and have done some follow up research in the years since. "His arms were too short"?? I dont know if you've ever held a shotgun, but unless you had dwarfism (no gitp pun intended) it's quite easy to aim a shot gun at one's self.
"had too much heroin in his system" Again.. I would dispute that. Unless he was in a heroin coma, he'd be quite capable. Many heroin addicts (particulary ones that dont have a 9-5 job..independently wealthy) function, while not "well, fairly normally... cobain I'm sure had a high amount in his system, he was a rock star after all... but as long as he wasnt "sleeping" (heroin spiral).. he'd been able to do it.

cant comment on the suicide note or fingerprints... havent heard anything about that. But certainly interesting if true...He didn't phrase it right. His arms were to short to fire it at that angle.

[zeratul]

He didn't phrase it right. His arms were to short to fire it at that angle.

thank you nightmare, he actuallly could probably shoot his crotch if he had wanted to. Now thats a suicide.

[Daze]

He didn't phrase it right. His arms were to short to fire it at that angle.

Ah, that makes more sense. But still... does anyone here actually know what angle the wound was at? It makes a good rumor and all, but to my knowledge no reputable sources have stated that.

We hate to lose the great ones (so many of them seem to die young) and sometime we grasp at things to help make sense of it. But for my dollar, I'd say this is exactly what it looked like.

[Daze]

thank you nightmare, he actuallly could probably shoot his crotch if he had wanted to. Now thats a suicide.


Oh man, it sure would be. A gut shot is said to be one of the worst ways to go.. (or in this case a crotch shot would be just as bad!)

[Amotis]

I think the fact that he attempted to OD before, the fact that he had just escaped (like jumped the wall) from a detox center, and the fact that his suicide note is actually very suicidal, not just the last two sentence, give a large amount of weight to what he did.

[Daze]

I think the fact that he attempted to OD before, the fact that he had just escaped (like jumped the wall) from a detox center, and the fact that his suicide note is actually very suicidal, not just the last two sentence, give a large amount of weight to what he did.

I agree... and suicide via shotgun suited kurt too. His life was loud and to the point, so was his death...

shows you how serious depression can be. Yet another example of "money/fame doesnt buy happiness"

[Turcano]

Very true though, heroin is the worst of the worst of all drugs... some people it kills fairly quickly, others can hang on for a fairly long life... depends...

Heroin is really horrible stuff, but I would give that particular title to methamphetamine; it's just as bad, but far more readily available.

[Daze]

Heroin is really horrible stuff, but I would give that particular title to methamphetamine; it's just as bad, but far more readily available.

I'd have a hard time arguing with that man. Meth is an absolutely horrendous drug, not to mention cheaper and "homegrown". But Meth doesnt quite have the addictive power heroin does. It is absolutely addicting, but I dont think it's "trainspotting" withdrawl bad... either way though... neither is a pretty way to go through life (or end it). Every kid in school should have to look at a long time meth AND heroin addict straight in the face. I've seen too many of both, not pretty.

[Shadow of the Sun]

"Aimed a shotgun into the blue, placed his face in between the two, and sighed 'Here's to Life!'"

[zeratul]

"Aimed a shotgun into the blue, placed his face in between the two, and sighed 'Here's to Life!'"

whats that from?

[Shadow of the Sun]

Here's to Life by Streetlight Manifesto and Bandits of the Acoustic Revolution. That is from a verse about Ernest Hemingway- he committed suicide by a shotgun round to the face.

[Om]

That is from a verse about Ernest Hemingway- he committed suicide by a shotgun round to the face.Funny that. I always figured that Hemingway had gone out wrestling a bear or something similar.

As for Cobain, remember that people are making money of these conspiracy theories. Like Elvis sightings, an entire cottage industry has grown up around "proving" that Cobain was murdered. Its all rubbish and standard conspiracy fare.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Funny that. I always figured that Hemingway had gone out wrestling a bear or something similar.

Oh so sig'd.

[J_Muller]

Funny that. I always figured that Hemingway had gone out wrestling a bear or something similar.


...that would be a truly awesome way to die.

I've recently given thought to the concept of a fur coat, and the only way I'd want to wear fur is if I'd killed the animal myself. I've decided that a bear would be ideal.

I can imagine the exchange between me and some anti-fur guy.
"Hey! Fur is murder you know!"

"If it makes you feel any better, I killed and skinned this animal myself."

"...what is it?"

"Bear."

"...:smalleek:"

[Om]

Oh so sig'd.Would this be a good time to bring up royalties? :smallwink:

Seriously though I am slightly shocked to hear that Hemmingway killed himself. Bear wrestling I could handle. In a shootout with Nazis I could handle. Drink related illness I could handle. But suicide...? Doesn't seem nearly macho enough for him.

[Turcano]

Funny that. I always figured that Hemingway had gone out wrestling a bear or something similar.

Reading that made me think of this (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp01022007.shtml).

[zeratul]

"And K.D.C., you were much too young!
And you changed my life!
But I draw the line at suicide!
Here's To Life!!"

[zeratul]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38858 thats a link to my new kurt cobain tribute and condolence thread