Planar Binding Pit Fiends

[RoboEmperor]

My favorite monster is the pit fiend, and I've only recently discovered that they only have 18 HD, which means they can be planar bound at level 15! (Though I'll probably wait until level 16 for the additional INT modifier and 8th level spell slot)

Here's are the problems though...
Pit Fiends have a +21 to will saves!
Your spell DC is going to be 10 + 8 (level of spell) + 9 (22int + 6 int from item) + 2 (greater spell focus) = 29
That means he's got to roll a 7 or less (35% chance) for the planar binding to work, 25% if you didn't waste 2 feats on spell foci, and 20% if you gotta use fox's cunning because you can't afford the headband of intellect.

But that's fine, you got a week or so to do this and you can cast one greater planar binding a day (the other spell slot is for moment of prescience), so this part is just a minor inconvenience.

Upon a successfully planar binding he has 2 methods of escape.
1. He's got a charisma modifier of +8. My DC is (15+8(caster level)+4(charisma bonus from a +6cloak) =27. That means he's gotta roll a 19 or 20 to escape, so this is not a problem.
2. Spell Resistance
This is the problem! He's got a spell resistance of 32! This means upon a successful planar binding, he has a(32-16(caster level)-4(greater spell penetration = 12 so I gotta roll a 13 or higher, which means he's got a 60%chance of escaping and beating your ass right then and there!

I thought about using contingency and assay spell resistance, but you can't cast assay spell resistance until the pit fiend is in the trap, meaning it won't help your greater planar binding from beating the pit fiend's SR escape attempt.

So the only options I can think of is securing an escape route.
1. Contingency a dimension door or teleport to get me the hell out of there the moment the pit fiend escapes the trap.
2. Call him in the ethereal plane via ethereal jaunt and the moment he escapes end the spell. It is my understanding pit fiends have no way of dimensional travel so they have no choice but to return to hell. I would use gate to go to the ethereal plane to draw the diagram and then gate back before using ethereal jaunt since a good trap takes hours and ethereal jaunt lasts minutes.

Banishment seems very unreliable as he has a (21 - (10+7+9)+18-15) = -2, so he only needs a roll of 2 or better to resist it, therefore a 95% chance of resisting the spell. The optional arcane foci part has caught my attention however, so I was wondering what would a pit fiend hate/fear/oppose? I need 9 of them. Also, anyone got a better idea on how to successfully bind a pit fiend?

[tyckspoon]

Go read Magic Circle Against Evil. Specifically the part about preparing a summoning diagram.. it does two things for you if you do it right: increases the Cha check DC by 5, and prevents trying to use SR to break the circle. You should never be trying to bind anything remotely dangerous without one of these.

[RoboEmperor]

Go read Magic Circle Against Evil. Specifically the part about preparing a summoning diagram.. it does two things for you if you do it right: increases the Cha check DC by 5, and prevents trying to use SR to break the circle. You should never be trying to bind anything remotely dangerous without one of these.

Oh my GOD! This is embarrassing! I can't believe I missed that part >.<
All I remembered about it was that I could cast dimensional anchor on the magic circle if I add the special diagram. Awesome! Now I don't need to waste 2 feats on spell penetration!

But still there's the matter of him escaping by rolling a 1... Anyone know what banishment foci I can use?

[Zanos]

I suggest preparing alter fortune. It costs 200xp, but lets you reroll that die as an immediate action. I'm sure there's other sources of rerolls as well, but that's the first that comes to mind.

I also generally don't recommend binding anything you aren't capable of killing yourself.

[RoboEmperor]

I suggest preparing alter fortune. It costs 200xp, but lets you reroll that die as an immediate action. I'm sure there's other sources of rerolls as well, but that's the first that comes to mind.

I also generally don't recommend binding anything you aren't capable of killing yourself.

I usually don't use planar binding as the summon monster spells are good enough, but pit fiends man! I want them a.s.a.p.!

I really don't like using XP cost stuff. Reason why my group hates me because I refuse to use limited wish XD

[tyckspoon]

Holy water, silver, tokens/pieces of the Good aligned planes, archon feathers, holy symbols of good gods, symbols of militant ordes dedicated to demonslaying? Pretty much anything associated with Good, Law (preferably both) or the specific weaknesses of Pit Fiends should work. You're in pretty deep ask your GM territory on that one, tho, and I wouldn't expect him to make it easy on you.

[LTwerewolf]

Circlet of persuasion for more on charisma checks?

[Psyren]

I usually don't use planar binding as the summon monster spells are good enough, but pit fiends man! I want them a.s.a.p.!

Famous last words :smalltongue:

My advice is to talk with your DM, say that this is a goal of your character and figure out a good reason why. (Even "my character is foolhardy/reckless" is a good reason in this context, because it's a believable motivation for summoning the most powerful general devils in hell.)

But Planar Binding is meant to be risky - you can take sensible precautions to keep things safe, but like Wish, attempting to "everything-proof" it is liable to just backfire.

[Phelix-Mu]

I also generally don't recommend binding anything you aren't capable of killing yourself.

I also generally don't recommend binding anything you aren't capable of killing yourself.

I also generally don't recommend binding anything you aren't capable of killing yourself.


Quoted, repeated, and bolded for emphasis.

One of the few redeeming qualities of insane wizards arcanists is that they occasionally "go rogue" and bite off more than they can chew. Planar binding is basically Exhibit A of how this might go down.

Upsides:
- Long term servant with kickass powers.

- Repeatable, so make an army.

- Huge potential versatility in what can be bound.

Downside:
- You are binding something that is going to live, which has likely already lived, hundreds of times longer than yourself. One day, you will have a bad day, maybe decades hence. To the outsider, that is basically like waiting until tomorrow. When the time comes, they show up and make your bad day a million times worse. Why? Because they can.

- "Bargaining" is a pretty positive light to cast it in, as most outsiders are highly frustrated by their even temporary captivity. These are embodiments of concepts used to fighting for or serving cosmic forces; they are probably not going to be won over into thinking that their time is well-spent working for another wizard (but they might pretend otherwise). Seen in the worst sense, it's akin to indentured servitude; in the best sense, you are humiliating beings for whom pride is a common vice. Unwise, young Jedi.

- At the end of the day, your servant will be free again. Free to return to their infinite home plane and tell all their friends about what a total loser they were working for, complete with sketches of your appearance and your home address. I believe that you can work some protections into the binding, but total security from the virtually unlimited threat that outsiders with a grudge can pose is probably a pipe dream.

But, all of that said, go for it. Being an adventurer can be about taking risks, curbstomping destiny, and showing everyone that you are one mean mofo not to be messed with.

Just don't get ahead of yourself, lol.

[tyckspoon]

Famous last words :smalltongue:

My advice is to talk with your DM, say that this is a goal of your character and figure out a good reason why. (Even "my character is foolhardy/reckless" is a good reason in this context, because it's a believable motivation for summoning the most powerful general devils in hell.)

But Planar Binding is meant to be risky - you can take sensible precautions to keep things safe, but like Wish, attempting to "everything-proof" it is liable to just backfire.

This would be a lot easier to buy if the spells weren't so easy to rig. I agree with you, but that chance of rolling 1 on the opposed Cha is the only real mechanical risk to a prepared summoner.

[Psyren]

This would be a lot easier to buy if the spells weren't so easy to rig. I agree with you, but that chance of rolling 1 on the opposed Cha is the only real mechanical risk to a prepared summoner.

The whole thing gets screwed if a blade of grass lands on the diagram. Trust me, if the DM wants to bone you he will find a way with this.

And even if it goes off without a hitch, there is still the "unreasonable requests" clause.

[LTwerewolf]

This would be a lot easier to buy if the spells weren't so easy to rig. I agree with you, but that chance of rolling 1 on the opposed Cha is the only real mechanical risk to a prepared summoner.

That and having the outsider come back at some point afterwards to tear you apart unless you do something to prevent it (not always easy to do).

[Phelix-Mu]

That and having the outsider come back at some point afterwards to tear you apart unless you do something to prevent it (not always easy to do).

Yeah, this would be my primary concern if I were binding. The oft-used theory is that, if you use the outsider for something they would approve of doing anyway, they won't hate you forever. But, if they had their freedom up on whatever plane, they would likely be doing something similar or much more virtuous/vile, and they'd have their freedom.

Now, I'm sure some powers encourage fiends/celestials in their service to cooperate, if only to garner allies, intelligence, and set the stage for a more long-term presence on the Prime, broadly seen as at least a niche interest of every power in the history of forever (though why this is so often stated is a bit hard to understand). But, once again, these plans and ulterior motives may not be in the best interests of the one doing the planar binding.

Generally, if it were me, I'd stick to elementals or something similar. Something dumb, unambitious, but with some utility.

[LTwerewolf]

The problem with pit fiends specifically is that they're devils. If you bind one of them, you're not just pissing them off. You're pissing Asmodeus off. You just used HIS creature without permission. Essentially, not worth it.

[Phelix-Mu]

The problem with pit fiends specifically is that they're devils. If you bind one of them, you're not just pissing them off. You're pissing Asmodeus off. You just used HIS creature without permission. Essentially, not worth it.

Or he doesn't mind. Then you should REALLY START TO WORRY.

[LTwerewolf]

Or he doesn't mind. Then you should REALLY START TO WORRY.

At that point you should just assume you've somehow done exactly what he wants, and now you belong to him anyway.

[Bad Wolf]

So bind an Imp first, use its commune ability to find out the most hated/unpopular Pit Fiend's name, and bind that. You now have a slightly higher chance of surviving.

[Extra Anchovies]

So bind an Imp first, use its commune ability to find out the most hated/unpopular Pit Fiend's name, and bind that. You now have a slightly higher chance of surviving.

Or ask him for the name of one of the (very few) LG or LN pit fiends.

[Eldariel]

At that point you should just assume you've somehow done exactly what he wants, and now you belong to him anyway.

Basically everything in reality is going exactly as he's planned anyways and every mortal and gods belongs to him anyways. Might as well get your temporary glory while he inevitably takes the multiverse over in a few million years. Pretty sure he doesn't give a ****. Pit Fiends? He literally bleeds those, he's got infinite where that came from.

[Emperor Tippy]

There are a lot of tricks to make binding difficult creatures reasonable safe and easy.

One is to bind a few Cerebrilith's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/cerebrilith.htm) first as they have at will Ego Whip. You use them to drop the target creatures Charisma down to 1 while it is inside the circle.

Then there is using Surge of Fortune plus Moment of Prescience to get +40 or so on the opposed Charisma check (natural 20 on the roll, +CL from MoP).

There is also the good old Mind Rape which should be used both before and after the binding (before to learn about any defenses or counters for the binding and the best approach for dealing with that particular creature and after to ensure loyalty) along with the Charm + Hypnotism to layer in a whole host of back up compulsions to protect you.

Of course there is always the risk that what you are trying to bind has a Craft Contingent Disjunction on them set to trigger if they are Called up without their permission. So you really should be binding on planes with the Limited Magic trait set to stop little things like Disjunction.

Granted, I tend to prefer Ice Assassins instead of Planar Binding. It is just safer.

[LTwerewolf]

Basically everything in reality is going exactly as he's planned anyways and every mortal and gods belongs to him anyways. Might as well get your temporary glory while he inevitably takes the multiverse over in a few million years. Pretty sure he doesn't give a ****. Pit Fiends? He literally bleeds those, he's got infinite where that came from.

It's not about if Asmodeus cares about them or likes them. He doesn't. It's about you using Asmodeus' property without a contract. That he cares about, regardless of who does it.

[RoboEmperor]

Wouldn't it be fun to have 1 super powerful creature helping you on your adventure that you can't kill yourself? You can't beat it to a pulp like so many wizards do to their imps. I think it would be fun. Anyways, I agree that a roll 1 on the charisma check is the only true risk of planar binding, at least until you get moment of prescience.

IMPORTANT QUESTION!
Does FEEBLEMIND, a spell that drops intelligence and charisma to 1, allow you to negotiate a deal?
Also, are Retrievers (demon) planar bindable due to the 0 intelligence and 1 charisma?


It's not about if Asmodeus cares about them or likes them. He doesn't. It's about you using Asmodeus' property without a contract. That he cares about, regardless of who does it.

I truly believe Asmodeus doesn't give a f*ck about his devils. Arch devils, devil lords, etc. all try to thwart him, and there are devil demotion ceremonies that demote pit fiends if they get pwned by a human. The only time Asmodeus would ever move a finger is if his devils break his laws or get lazy and stop extracting magic from souls or stop corrupting humans. Anyone who deals with devils end up benefiting the devils in the long run (some devils thing centuries ahead), so planar bound pit fiends are going to have to use their cleverness to make this situation beneficial to baator, otherwise face demotion for being incompetent. Who knows? Maybe this pit fiend will strike a deal in fiendish codex II with my PC, or use his arrogance or w.e to make him meet his doom, or something. In all cases though, Asmodeus doesn't give a sh*t. :)

[LTwerewolf]

The pit fiend would absolutely be demoted. Doesn't change that you just took the property of the realms' most OCD control freak who is known for vengeance in incredibly convoluted but always airtight ways. He doesn't have to lift a finger, and that revenge not only sends a message, but also strokes his ego that once again he proved his superiority to all those who dare cross somewhat near to what could be close to his path.

You're stuck thinking along the lines of "he doesn't care about the devils, so he wouldn't do anything." That doesn't really fit Asmodeus, because he's more than just an uncaring bastard. So much more, and so much worse.

[RoboEmperor]

You're stuck thinking along the lines of "he doesn't care about the devils, so he wouldn't do anything." That doesn't really fit Asmodeus, because he's more than just an uncaring bastard. So much more, and so much worse.

:\ can you back your claim with something? :P
All the literature I read about does not portray him as an OCD freak, but a clever mastermind with an impeccable information network. He felt to me more like an observer who is steadily increasing his power and doesn't waste his time with small sh*t like a no-name pit fiend being planar bound. He has his whole court system and arch devils and dukes to handle all that stuff for him. He's as hands-off as an evil deity, maybe even more so.

[LTwerewolf]

He would be OCD not necessarily out of mental disorder (though he certainly could be) but out of necessity. He has to keep tabs on everything everywhere all the time. It's how his plans always work. There's nothing left unaccounted for.

In the various origin stories they've released (multiple), he's either the original devil (Ahriman from guide to hell), or he wasn't and took hell over from Beelzebub who took it over from satan (dragon #28 and somewhat corroborated by bovd). Fiendish codex II's description of his fall could really go with either story.

In the first example, he's the most ancient of evils, and has controlled the growth of evils since that time. He's had his finger in every pie and is the source. He will have had to make sure that under no circumstance he could be overthrown. This involves looking into and keeping track of every little thing.


In the other story, he gained massive support in order to overthrow beelzebub (who was then renamed Baalzebul). In this story, which is the more recent, it would give him incentive to look after the devils, so as to ensure they don't rise up against him as they did twice in the past. He still had to be clever enough (even moreso than in the first story) to overthrow the others, and plan contingency upon contingency out to the nth power to make sure it worked. He would have to be OCD to keep track of everything involved, else there would have been 0 chance of success.

Keeping other guys on the payroll to do it for him? In what universe do you think he'd trust anyone with anything ever? He'd have them do it more as a lipservice to having them do what he tells them to. He's the ultimate Tyrant. It's about control. Of everything.

[RoboEmperor]

Keeping other guys on the payroll to do it for him? In what universe do you think he'd trust anyone with anything ever? He'd have them do it more as a lipservice to having them do what he tells them to. He's the ultimate Tyrant. It's about control. Of everything.

Then what's the point of the hierarchy? He keeps tabs on the arch devils and keeps them in control, and even the arch devil doesn't bother himself with the affairs of mortals. Pitfiends do everything, courts and all, and they laught and humiliate the pit fiends who fail. I have never, ever heard asmodeus doing anything himself. Even in time of troubles he didn't appear, and no campaign setting ever has him do anything. He keeps everything in control himself like you said but he doesn't bother with the small stuff, that's the archdevils job, who also don't give a f*ck about pitfiends. The only time they ever do anything is either promoting/demoting demons from duke status, or trying to cause some huge scale mayhem.

[afroakuma]

So bind an Imp first, use its commune ability to find out the most hated/unpopular Pit Fiend's name

Bel. :smalltongue:

[LTwerewolf]

I have never, ever heard asmodeus doing anything himself. Even in time of troubles he didn't appear, and no campaign setting ever has him do anything.

Just because you don't see him doing it doesn't mean it isn't ultimately him. That's a big part of his method. You can't prove he did anything. That's what the best masterminds do. During the dawn war he allied with Bane, and the two worked very well together. Later he instigated the rebellion of angels, and Bane helped him do it. During the time of troubles, I would imagine that Asmodeus wanted to stay quiet and unnoticed, for many reasons. First it gives plenty of opportunity to gain power in ways the other gods couldn't stop. Second, his magic didn't work properly, as the weave was entirely unstable. He wasn't cursed to walk among the mortals like the gods were, but had he gotten Ao's notice, he may have. Asmodeus is smart enough to to mess with Ao. He also watched gods, such as his ally Bane, get slaughtered. Not having reliable magic (and therefore an unreliable artifact), I can't imagine a devil that wanted to show supremacy would want to show his weakness, and thus sat by and watched.

Further proof is that he's directly opposed to some of the most powerful deities, such as moradin, and they have yet to even dent his domain.

[Extra Anchovies]

General set of advice:

1. Can you solo the Pit Fiend, or can you ensure that your party will help you take it down? If no, stop. If yes, continue.
2. Bind the Pit Fiend. Use whatever shenanigans are necessary to ensure it agrees to your demands. If you fail, take it down.
3. Let it complete its service. Include "report back to me in person when done" in the instructions.
4. When it returns, take it down. Giving it a chance to plan revenge is shortsighted on your part.

[Psyren]

Why are we assuming the pit fiend itself is helpless in this scenario? They could have standing orders with another devil (say, an imp underling) in the case of being bound to have the imp plane shift over, teleport to their location and disturb the circle by any means necessary, or other LE notables like an efreet or rakshasa, or any number of other contingencies.

[Phelix-Mu]

Why are we assuming the pit fiend itself is helpless in this scenario? They could have standing orders with another devil (say, an imp underling) in the case of being bound to have the imp plane shift over, teleport to their location and disturb the circle by any means necessary, or other LE notables like an efreet or rakshasa, or any number of other contingencies.

Indeed, I have similar feelings about gate as written. It's such powerful effect that any outsider likely to be targeted would have standing defenses or arrangements with allies designed to counteract the effect. Something like Craft Contingent Spells (in a higher-op campaign, obv), or even suicide devices designed to prevent the creature from being compelled to violate its alignment. It's such an obvious precaution to take as an outsider, most of which are at least as smart as a smart human, with numerous types being supra-geniuses as well.

[RoboEmperor]

Why are we assuming the pit fiend itself is helpless in this scenario? They could have standing orders with another devil (say, an imp underling) in the case of being bound to have the imp plane shift over, teleport to their location and disturb the circle by any means necessary, or other LE notables like an efreet or rakshasa, or any number of other contingencies.

First, I don't think efreetis or rakshasa would help pit fiends. Pit fiends ONLY have devil subordinates, not even cultists because they worship archdevils, not pit fiends.

Second, thanks to moment of prescience and assay resistance/true strike/enervation combos, there is a 95% chance of successfully making the pit fiend your companion on the first day you successfully planar bind the pit fiend, so not much chance of revenge :P

Thirdly, how can imps plane shift o_O?


General set of advice:

1. Can you solo the Pit Fiend, or can you ensure that your party will help you take it down? If no, stop. If yes, continue.
2. Bind the Pit Fiend. Use whatever shenanigans are necessary to ensure it agrees to your demands. If you fail, take it down.
3. Let it complete its service. Include "report back to me in person when done" in the instructions.
4. When it returns, take it down. Giving it a chance to plan revenge is shortsighted on your part.

I'm not playing to power game :P. I think the teleport/ethereal stuff is enough to ensure you can escape upon a planar binding fail so I can and will dare to bind devils I can't kill >:D. Especially since Pit Fiends don't have scrying so they can't find me so easily and chase me with their at-will teleports.

Allowing a pit fiend to take revenge is also a really fun perk. Let him come! It'll either be a pit fiend v.s. pit fiend battle or me teleporting like mad with a helm of teleportation. And if I die, alright! Game's over, was fun, I learned my mistake so I'm gonna try again! But it is to my knowledge that you can't kill devils/demons. They just reform in the abyss/baator, so taking him down won't stop his revenge.

My current game plan with one of my PCs is, hit level 15, then spend an ungodly amount of XP crafting weapons, armor, and wondrous items for myself. A pit fiend should be enough to compensate my lack of character growth for the next... 20,000 XP? I want a +10 equivalent weapon, so that's 8000xp, +6 armor with ethrealness so that's... 3400xp, I want 3 +6 stat items, so that's 4320xp, helm of teleportation which is 2940xp, for a grand total of 18660xp. We're talking about a pure wizard with a +10 equivalent weapon so... this is definitely not good XP spent XD. I haven't tried this yet but I highly doubt a pitfiend companion is gonna be OP and break the campaign.

Did I also mention pit fiends are my favorite devil/demon? They're high class, refined, yet so evil, cunning, and powerful. :)


Just because you don't see him doing it doesn't mean it isn't ultimately him. That's a big part of his method. You ...

We weren't debating whether Asmodeus is powerful or not. There is no doubt he as powerful of not more powerful than deities. We were debating whether Asmodeus is an OCD patient who micromanages every freaking devil down to the last imp or not. This is how I see Asmodeus
1. He lets archdevils rule his hells. They can do w.e they want as long as they obey his rules, like don't invade the material realm.
2. He spends 100% of his time gathering information, either by planting more spies or just listening to their reports. He hears a pit fiend got planar bound and later achieved vengeance, he makes a good note of that pit fiend and remembers his name. If a pit fiend got planar bound, tried to get vengeance but was completely humiliated and then the baator convened a session deeming him unworthy and demoting him to some lesser devil, he makes a note of that and remembers how incompetent and pathetic that pit fiend was. If and arch-devil is plotting his demise, Asmodeus just lets it play out and then punishes him severely when the time is right. If there is a world changing event like time of troubles, like you said he does some stuff but doesn't risk himself and is a very minor player. In fact, Graz'zt (demon) did much more than he did because Graz'zt imprisoned Waukeen, a deity.

So where does this super possessive OCD micromanaging freak fit in in this description? Name one instance, just one, that shows that he gets pissed off when a wizard planar binds a devil and then unleashes all hell on him. Why would devils opt for revenge if Asmodeus took revenge for them? You said it yourself, he manipulates stuff from the shadows. Would a puppetmaster care if one of his puppets danced with a mortal? He'd just be interested if the human becomes his puppet, or whether the pit fiend puppet redeems himself like a true general of hell or not.

[atemu1234]

Yeah... from an exact spell-wording thing it'd probably work, but it is completely ill-advised.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Two things you must always remember when dealing with devils You're -never- dealing with just one devil. Mafia, russian gangs, triad, yakuza, etc are all pale imitations of what the various factions of baator have perfected since before the first elf walked the prime. Ruthless as only creatures of pure evil and organized as only creatures of pure law can be. Unless you're giving them exactly what they want, there -will- be a comeuppance.

Unless your interactions with the baatezu are vanishingly rare it's highly probable that you will end up damned and dead just as fast as they can reasonably arrange it.

I'm going to have to reiterate what everyone else has already said, this is supremely unwise.

Ya know, mariliths are pretty bad ass. Or you might be able to squeeze a wish out of a glabrezu*. I'm just saying, there are plenty of fantastic options that are much less likely to get you processed into a lemure.

*Be very careful with this suggestion. 'Ware the monkey's paw.

[Raven777]

Allowing a pit fiend to take revenge is also a really fun perk. Let him come! It'll either be a pit fiend v.s. pit fiend battle or me teleporting like mad with a helm of teleportation. And if I die, alright! Game's over, was fun, I learned my mistake so I'm gonna try again!

Gotta say, I like the cut of his jib.

[RoboEmperor]

Two things you must always remember when dealing with devils You're -never- dealing with just one devil. Mafia, russian gangs, triad, yakuza, etc are all pale imitations of what the various factions of baator have perfected since before the first elf walked the prime. Ruthless as only creatures of pure evil and organized as only creatures of pure law can be. Unless you're giving them exactly what they want, there -will- be a comeuppance.

Unless your interactions with the baatezu are vanishingly rare it's highly probable that you will end up damned and dead just as fast as they can reasonably arrange it.

I'm going to have to reiterate what everyone else has already said, this is supremely unwise.

Ya know, mariliths are pretty bad ass. Or you might be able to squeeze a wish out of a glabrezu*. I'm just saying, there are plenty of fantastic options that are much less likely to get you processed into a lemure.

*Be very careful with this suggestion. 'Ware the monkey's paw.

I don't think devils are like mafia. At least the literature I've read they enjoy humiliating each other. Best example I can think of is... fiendish codex 2. If you make a pact with a devil and die, your soul is damned and therefore cannot be resurrected. You can however, appeal, saying the devil forced you into the pact (even if it didn't) and if your bluff or reputation is high enough, the court will laugh and rule in favor of you, which means they don't really care about the other devil (henceforth each other).

Mariliths are the 2nd strongest demon (balor being the 1st but un-planar-bindable) so yeah, you're right they are badass. But it's many-armed ugly demon v.s. cool refined noble devil. Like I said it's purely a preference thing :P. Did I mention pit fiends are my favorite? :D


Gotta say, I like the cut of his jib.

Thanks!

But.. with soooooo many people (everyone in this thread) advising me against this... I'm starting to worry! D:

[Grim Portent]

I always get a tad puzzled when people think a devil would seek to avoid being summoned and bargained with. A demon I could understand, they dislike being under someone's thumb, but devils love to negotiate and slowly corrupt things.

If I was a pit fiend and was called to the world by a powerful spellcaster I'd do everything I could to make sure we had a mutually beneficial arrangement. He gets to call me or one of my servants to perform tasks appropriate to our nature as needed and in exchange he aids me in achieving my goals on the material plane from time to time. Whenever I or one of my inferiors is with the summoner the name of the game would be to slowly corrupt them and bring them to be dependent on devilish assistance.

There's no profit in being needlessly vindictive, there's no gain in killing a powerful mortal out of spite. Why kill what can be corrupted? A high level spellcaster is one of the greatest assets a devil could have in the mortal world. With the right nudging it could even become an immortal ally trading stolen souls for power. Why remove a force of evil from play when I could have them rip out the souls of the pure and virtuous and sell them to me for but a few moments of my time?

Truth be told I'd consider any devil that dislikes being called in a fashion that gives it a chance to negotiate as one unsuited for the politics of hell. After all, if they aren't confident they can dupe a mortal then what chance do they have among their peers?

Evil corrupts. It is only a matter of time. And time is always on a devil's side.

[FearlessGnome]

But.. with soooooo many people (everyone in this thread) advising me against this... I'm starting to worry! D:

Do it. It'll be fine.

[atemu1234]

Do it. It'll be fine.

Said the man with the avatar pic which shows a man leading his flock off a cliff.

[FearlessGnome]

I'm a victim of circumstance, your honour.

[atemu1234]

I'm a victim of circumstance, your honour.

Even if it wasn't intentional, it's hilarious though, isn't it?

[Coidzor]

Holy water, silver, tokens/pieces of the Good aligned planes, archon feathers, holy symbols of good gods, symbols of militant ordes dedicated to demonslaying? Pretty much anything associated with Good, Law (preferably both) or the specific weaknesses of Pit Fiends should work. You're in pretty deep ask your GM territory on that one, tho, and I wouldn't expect him to make it easy on you.

Devil-hunting and Chaos, instead of Law and Demonslaying. Demonslaying is something Pitfiends can get behind. Even most Balors, honestly. I think symbols of various Abyssal factions may also be of interest, what with the blood war and all.

[Zanos]

But.. with soooooo many people (everyone in this thread) advising me against this... I'm starting to worry! D:
It largely depends on your DM. Personally I don't slam people with ridiculous consequences for binding a Devil or two, but some people think differently.

[Erik Vale]

I always get a tad puzzled when people think a devil would seek to avoid being summoned and bargained with. A demon I could understand, they dislike being under someone's thumb, but devils love to negotiate and slowly corrupt things.

If I was a pit fiend and was called to the world by a powerful spellcaster I'd do everything I could to make sure we had a mutually beneficial arrangement. He gets to call me or one of my servants to perform tasks appropriate to our nature as needed and in exchange he aids me in achieving my goals on the material plane from time to time. Whenever I or one of my inferiors is with the summoner the name of the game would be to slowly corrupt them and bring them to be dependent on devilish assistance.

There's no profit in being needlessly vindictive, there's no gain in killing a powerful mortal out of spite. Why kill what can be corrupted? A high level spellcaster is one of the greatest assets a devil could have in the mortal world. With the right nudging it could even become an immortal ally trading stolen souls for power. Why remove a force of evil from play when I could have them rip out the souls of the pure and virtuous and sell them to me for but a few moments of my time?

Truth be told I'd consider any devil that dislikes being called in a fashion that gives it a chance to negotiate as one unsuited for the politics of hell. After all, if they aren't confident they can dupe a mortal then what chance do they have among their peers?

Evil corrupts. It is only a matter of time. And time is always on a devil's side.

Quote for truth.

Sure, they'll dislike being bound to a mortal, but if they can get something out of it they will. The only reason I could see immediate bashing is because if you interrupted them doing something important, you humiliated them, or you forced them to do things they really didn't want to do.
And if you do so, they're more likely to try and capture your soul so they can torment it for all eternity... Say by planting a Thianimun fragment on your person affected by a contingency greater planeshift for when you die.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think devils are like mafia. At least the literature I've read they enjoy humiliating each other. Best example I can think of is... fiendish codex 2. If you make a pact with a devil and die, your soul is damned and therefore cannot be resurrected. You can however, appeal, saying the devil forced you into the pact (even if it didn't) and if your bluff or reputation is high enough, the court will laugh and rule in favor of you, which means they don't really care about the other devil (henceforth each other).

Don't misunderstand, they have -no- sense of familial bonding whatsoever. You're right about that. What they -do- have is an irresistible compulsion to follow orders to the letter; a consequence of being inherently lawful beings. While schadenfreude is one of the most common traits amongst them they -all- know the consequences of humiliating a superior or harming the organization to overcome a rival are dire indeed. If a devil is to do either he needs to either have a patsy or do so with such verve and splendor as to impress whomever is watching enough to make it worth overlooking his transgression.

The organization doesn't come after you because of honor. They come after you because they were ordered to or because they cut a deal with others of their rank or higher that they'll have to repay eventually.

I note two misconceptions in your view of damnation. 1) Your soul is damned when you sign the act certain or when your alignment shifts to lawful evil and only the former makes it impossible to raise you from the dead without a hell-bound quest to recover the soul. 2) Your damned before you die. Being slain while damned gets you sent to baator but you can save yourself from a pact insidious and a LE alignment by atoning and becoming less evil/ lawful.

[RoboEmperor]

The organization doesn't come after you because of honor. They come after you because they were ordered to or because they cut a deal with others of their rank or higher that they'll have to repay eventually.

I agree except, why would anyone order the devils to kill the wizard? At most it would be the planar bound pit fiend ordering his vassals to take the wizard down.

Why would a pit fiend cut a deal with the other pit fiends? No pit fiend would ever cut a deal with other pit fiends because it is a sign of weakness. He is admitting he cannot take down a mortal by himself at which point he doesn't deserve to be a pit fiend at least in the other devils' eyes.

And even if the legions of hell wanted to kill the wizard, they can't. Asmodeus banned them from acting directly. The only thing they can do is send mercenaries or a high ranking noble after you as part of a deal. "I'll give you ___ but in exchange you must slay ___".

A clever pit fiend I believe would instead of doing something so simple as trying to kill the wizard via force, he would corrupt an inn keeper to poison the wizard's food, or an adventurer who would fight with the wizard and kill him in his sleep or poison his food, etc. So no "a gate appears and a million devils pour out for the sole purpose of slaying the wizard." At BEST it would be legions of assassins observing the wizard, befriending the wizard, etc. and striking at the first sign of weakness. The only direct combat vengeance scenario would be the pit fiend himself arriving with his vassals and trying to fight the wizard (only a squad, no army and only devils weaker than the pit fiend)

Oh and those who say a pit fiend would gladly want to make deals with mortals, while normally this is true, 99.9999% of planar binding reward is "I'll let you go" so of course pit fiends would want revenge :P. I mean, who would pay 100,000gp for a 15 day companion? Though by RAW I guess you can get away with 18,000gp without invoking revenge. But this would mean no enervations/bestow curse/etc. and releasing him right after the charisma check fails. An imprisoned pit fiend is a vengeful pit fiend.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Bel. :smalltongue:

Ok I'kll bite, why would Bel, the Lord of the First, general of the Devil's vanguard be the most hated Pit Fiend?

[RoboEmperor]

Last bit of comment...
Planar binding pit fiends fits well with my 8 WIS character XD

[Kelb_Panthera]

I agree except, why would anyone order the devils to kill the wizard? At most it would be the planar bound pit fiend ordering his vassals to take the wizard down.

You say that as though it wouldn't be enough, though I will still point out the fact that mortals under pacts insidious are a thing. To the point itself though; vengeance for wounded pride, note all the suggestions of debuffing the begeezus out of him, or being taken from more important things at a bad time.


Why would a pit fiend cut a deal with the other pit fiends? No pit fiend would ever cut a deal with other pit fiends because it is a sign of weakness. He is admitting he cannot take down a mortal by himself at which point he doesn't deserve to be a pit fiend at least in the other devils' eyes.

I was referring more to lesser devils on that point. Even so, pit fiends are more than smart enough and wise enough to know that high level mortal spellcasters have great potential as both prime side allies (read: tools) and hazardous foes. While it would certainly be distasteful to go to another pit fiend to ask for help, it would be quite courteous to go to another pit fiend and tip him off to the fact his name's been "slipped" to a mortal who likes to use devils as his pawns especially with that important "thing" coming up. *nudge nudge, wink wink*




And even if the legions of hell wanted to kill the wizard, they can't. Asmodeus banned them from acting directly. The only thing they can do is send mercenaries or a high ranking noble after you as part of a deal. "I'll give you ___ but in exchange you must slay ___".

Where does this come from? Devils don't act directly in the mortal realm -often- because it doesn't suit their overall purpose and there are plenty of cultists and pact insidious signatories for grunt work.


A clever pit fiend I believe would instead of doing something so simple as trying to kill the wizard via force, he would corrupt an inn keeper to poison the wizard's food, or an adventurer who would fight with the wizard and kill him in his sleep or poison his food, etc. So no "a gate appears and a million devils pour out for the sole purpose of slaying the wizard." At BEST it would be legions of assassins observing the wizard, befriending the wizard, etc. and striking at the first sign of weakness. The only direct combat vengeance scenario would be the pit fiend himself arriving with his vassals and trying to fight the wizard (only a squad, no army and only devils weaker than the pit fiend)

On this we agree. Dead is dead, damned first is better but not always feasible and all too often already done (summoning or calling devils is always a lawful and evil act, and doing so frequently is an express ticket to hell.)


Oh and those who say a pit fiend would gladly want to make deals with mortals, while normally this is true, 99.9999% of planar binding reward is "I'll let you go" so of course pit fiends would want revenge :P. I mean, who would pay 100,000gp for a 15 day companion? Though by RAW I guess you can get away with 18,000gp without invoking revenge. But this would mean no enervations/bestow curse/etc. and releasing him right after the charisma check fails. An imprisoned pit fiend is a vengeful pit fiend.

No pit fiend would take such a pitiful deal. The lifetime of one mortal is inconsequential in the long-term, though far from ideal if it comes to that. He'll wait until you offer him something that shows at least token respect for his position.

If you're more the type to use and dispose of called flunkies after debuffing them into submission you'll eventually run into the issue of those devils' superiors getting tired of relatively important underlings disappearing. Make yourself a big enough nuisance and you -could- draw the attention of a duke though probably not any of The Nine.

[Brookshw]

Ok I'kll bite, why would Bel, the Lord of the First, general of the Devil's vanguard be the most hated Pit Fiend?

Bel's commonly viewed as an upstart and imposter to his position as a Lord of Hell, one of his nicknames is after all "the pretender". His position as the Lord of the First isn't an "honorable" one, it's a position that most fiends want nothing to do with outside of the dark eight, the Lords of the other eight layers spend little time or energy on the blood war. Bel got the short end of the stick in that regard being saddled with doing the dirty work. His position is often described as one of scorn and ridicule, the lords hate him, Asmodeus barely tolerates him (Bel does some spying on the other lords for him, another reason for the scorn).

Edit: I should probably add his four way cross was unlikely to have earned him any friends (even if it did earn him some level of respect).



Where does this come from? Devils don't act directly in the mortal realm -often- because it doesn't suit their overall purpose and there are plenty of cultists and pact insidious signatories for grunt work. Not sure where that comes from but Guide to Hell touches upon it sort of. They're actually described as frequent visitors to the Prime. However there is a caveat, "are free to travel the planes if they have the means and permission to do so" and "authorization to travel is not always easy to obtain. Usually, only trusted minions are sent to the Prime," and "Devils, except for erinyes, usually come to the Prime Material Plane only when summoned." (GtH, pg 7). I don't much feel like pulling out Planes of Law or A Paladin in Hell to look for additional quotes but seem to recall there were plenty more. It goes back a bit to the notion of Asmodeus being a bit of a control freak, or the hell hiernarchy at least.


Make yourself a big enough nuisance and you -could- draw the attention of a duke though probably not any of The Nine Depends who you upset probably, offing Martinet would probably get big A right pissed off at you.

[Psyren]

Ok I'kll bite, why would Bel, the Lord of the First, general of the Devil's vanguard be the most hated Pit Fiend?

afroakuma probably has way better answers on this than I do, but looking through FC2 it mentions how none of the other Lords of 9 trust him due to the method of his ascension to Lord of the First (i.e. usurping Zariel's post.) Worse though are how lesser devils regard him; he was one of the few to advance all the way through the hierarchy, from lemure up to Pit Fiend and then Lord of 9 with no shortcuts. He's like the guy who started in the mail room and became CEO, or at least made it to the Board, and that makes him a target of considerable envy.

"Bel is an inspiration to all devilkind. Every devil in Baator wants to do as he did, then kill him and take his place."

In short, he is envied/hated by those below him, and feared/distrusted by those who are his peers. Only Asmodeus seems to like the guy, and "like" is probably a strong word. A good arrangement for Bel, as long as he's useful anyway - which, as long as he successfully mans the front lines, he will be.

[LTwerewolf]

Not sure where that comes from but Guide to Hell touches upon it sort of. They're actually described as frequent visitors to the Prime. However there is a caveat, "are free to travel the planes if they have the means and permission to do so" and "authorization to travel is not always easy to obtain. Usually, only trusted minions are sent to the Prime," and "Devils, except for erinyes, usually come to the Prime Material Plane only when summoned." (GtH, pg 7). I don't much feel like pulling out Planes of Law or A Paladin in Hell to look for additional quotes but seem to recall there were plenty more. It goes back a bit to the notion of Asmodeus being a bit of a control freak, or the hell hiernarchy at least.

Well yes and no. The reason not all devils are allowed to run rampant all over the prime is due to the attention it would cause. That means the devils that do have permission have to be incredibly subtle. All of the more intelligent/wise devils know that should they cause too much fuss, they wouldn't be able to defend against the onslaught from every good aligned faction. Lemures running around causing relative havoc does two things: 1) doesn't really cause THAT much suffering before they get banished and 2)convinces more people and more deities that the hells are something to do something about. It's explained a little more in planes of law, but a page number escapes me atm.

[afroakuma]

afroakuma probably has way better answers on this than I do

Hey look, I was summoned! :smallbiggrin:

In Hell, you have pit fiends, then pit fiend generals, then the Dark Eight (the supreme war council of Hell), then the Dukes of Hell (unique individuals who serve in various high offices), then the Lords of the Nine. Bel is a general who, via pure treachery and opportunism, skipped becoming a Duke of Hell and went straight to the status of Lord of the First. He is, however, still a pit fiend. Not only that - he is still legally obliged to serve under one of his inferiors, since he continues to hold his job in Hell's army.

So Bel lacks both the personal power and personal prestige to deserve the post, which means that everyone else (especially the Dukes) sees him as fair game to undermine. After all, if he could do it, why can't they take it away from him?

Bel is widely known to be a spy and toady for Asmodeus, which earns him the scorn of the other Lords of the Nine. Compared to the vastly more popular Zariel, Bel is seen as a lickspittle incapable of following through (Hell loves traitors, but only if they actually succeed). Bel cannot control his layer; Avernus itself shows him no respect, and the fireballs that rain down over the landscape are manifestations of Zariel's wrath channeled through her connection to the layer.

Bel has no court and no allies; none of Hell's nobility bow to him or stand with him. In fact, numerous dispossessed Dukes of Hell run wild across Avernus, certain that Bel cannot afford to try controlling them. Most of the layer is outside of his ability to manage. It is widely rumored in Hell that Asmodeus appointed Bel because the pit fiend wouldn't be capable of scraping together enough time or competence to scheme or plot in Hell's politics.

In short, Bel is a combination of the Peter Principle and the Dilbert Principle and everyone knows it.

[Brookshw]

. It's explained a little more in planes of law, but a page number escapes me atm.

Yeah, I thought there was more in there as well but a quick find on the pdf only turned up erinyes tend to go there and hellcats don't like to go. Maybe its hellbound that had more info. I'll try and check later unless someone has the time to before I can get to it.

[LTwerewolf]

Hey look, I was summoned! :smallbiggrin:

In Hell, you have pit fiends, then pit fiend generals, then the Dark Eight (the supreme war council of Hell), then the Dukes of Hell (unique individuals who serve in various high offices), then the Lords of the Nine. Bel is a general who, via pure treachery and opportunism, skipped becoming a Duke of Hell and went straight to the status of Lord of the First. He is, however, still a pit fiend. Not only that - he is still legally obliged to serve under one of his inferiors, since he continues to hold his job in Hell's army.

So Bel lacks both the personal power and personal prestige to deserve the post, which means that everyone else (especially the Dukes) sees him as fair game to undermine. After all, if he could do it, why can't they take it away from him?

Bel is widely known to be a spy and toady for Asmodeus, which earns him the scorn of the other Lords of the Nine. Compared to the vastly more popular Zariel, Bel is seen as a lickspittle incapable of following through (Hell loves traitors, but only if they actually succeed). Bel cannot control his layer; Avernus itself shows him no respect, and the fireballs that rain down over the landscape are manifestations of Zariel's wrath channeled through her connection to the layer.

Bel has no court and no allies; none of Hell's nobility bow to him or stand with him. In fact, numerous dispossessed Dukes of Hell run wild across Avernus, certain that Bel cannot afford to try controlling them. Most of the layer is outside of his ability to manage. It is widely rumored in Hell that Asmodeus appointed Bel because the pit fiend wouldn't be capable of scraping together enough time or competence to scheme or plot in Hell's politics.

In short, Bel is a combination of the Peter Principle and the Dilbert Principle and everyone knows it.


BoVD does say that Bel is in fact respected, albeit grudgingly. He is stated to have high favor with the dark eight. The other thing is that it's rumored he has Zariel in the bronze citadel and is siphoning off her power to increase his own. He may not be liked, but he's certainly very good at what he does. That being said, the other devils certainly loathe him and resent him for it. I haven't seen much that says he's actively undermined, but there are anecdotes of him where they try to add in a little extra to his orders because he didn't say they couldn't.

[Extra Anchovies]

Now that we're on the topic of Bel (who happens to be one of my favorite Lords of the Nine, but only because he's willing to honestly collaborate with non-evil characters, at least for a time), are there any books which describe Zariel as currently in power, much in the same way that BoVD describes the Hag Countess as being in power but Fiendish Codex II has her replaced by Glasya? I'm curious as to what Zariel was like, since even after being usurped he's powerful enough to sling fireballs all over Avernus.

[LTwerewolf]

Zariel was overthrown by Bel during the reckoning of hell when Asmodeus took over. She was favored by Asmodeus up until she sided with Baalzebul over him. She was overthrown and Asmodeus decided his most loyal follower got her position, jumping him two steps above where he was. Since it happened at that point, there's not going to be any sources that describe her in power.

[afroakuma]

Apparently they're bringing her back in 5E, for whatever that's worth.

[LTwerewolf]

Have not seen that yet, should be very interesting. I'd like to see what happens to Bel (who I consider to be the least evil of all the lords of the nine).

[Brookshw]

Apparently they're bringing her back in 5E, for whatever that's worth.

Hehe, can't wait to see that play out :smallbiggrin:

Now if only the 'loths would finish their tower. How long can it take to make a miles tall and miles deep building of screaming souls:smallannoyed:

[Extra Anchovies]

Hehe, can't wait to see that play out :smallbiggrin:

Now if only the 'loths would finish their tower. How long can it take to make a miles tall and miles deep building of screaming souls:smallannoyed:

Hm? Do you mean the Yugoloths? What tower are they building?

[Brookshw]

Hm? Do you mean the Yugoloths? What tower are they building?

Yup, those buggers. They have two towers already and are building a third. One in Gehenna (forget the name, Arcanoloths hang out there), one on Hades (Khin Oin) and have been constructing a third in Carceri for a while (Tower of Incarnate Pain iirc). The towers themselves are constructed from the bodies/larvae/souls of petitioners who are perpetually tormented, the walls, floors etc scream and moan (but man are they comfy to walk on!) They're miles tall and reportedly miles deep (shemmy has them pegged at 20 miles). When the last is constructed they'll do.......something.

[Brookshw]

Well yes and no. The reason not all devils are allowed to run rampant all over the prime is due to the attention it would cause. That means the devils that do have permission have to be incredibly subtle. All of the more intelligent/wise devils know that should they cause too much fuss, they wouldn't be able to defend against the onslaught from every good aligned faction. Lemures running around causing relative havoc does two things: 1) doesn't really cause THAT much suffering before they get banished and 2)convinces more people and more deities that the hells are something to do something about. It's explained a little more in planes of law, but a page number escapes me atm.

Right, so to go back to this. I dug through* Hellbound, Planes of Law, Faces of Evil and flipped back through Guide to Hell and it pretty much boils back down to permission. Mostly, you're in hell, you're a devil. You have a job to do, period. Dereliction of your responsibilities is going to cause you no lack of misfortune. Hell already has the Ministry of Mortal Relations, it's members are tasked with addressing trips to the mortal plane (with a few exceptions). Further, you've got things you need to learn, things that are expected of you. Running off to the prime doesn't necessarily fit with what you're expected to do as a Lemure (barring some that are presumably used by the Ministry). It doesn't fit with what anyone's really expected to do outside of the Ministry and those are by and large Erineye's or likely some other devils who are explicitly trained to deal with mortals, to tempt them, to take advantage of the situation. Heck, they have special squads on stand by waiting for summons to come in that they'll then answer. If a world tips too far into the lawful evil end of the alignment pool, well, then it just might be time to invade and let loose the armies onto that world (that's even one of the suggested ways of using devils).

And what's the benefit to some devil going off on their own to a Prime that's not in the Ministry or has permission? Maybe you pull off some evil and damn a few souls, but that wasn't your job in the first place so no points for you. In fact what you did was abandon your post which has severe repercussions, demotions, death, etc,....oh yeah, and a lot of torment before any of that happens EVEN if you actually had some success in your little foray. And while you were gone you left all those scheming conniving opponents behind free to work whatever havoc they want and jeopardize your position upon your return. Don't forget, as a devil you're inferiors are looking for ways to boost themselves and will happily throw you under the bus to get there. You're superiors likewise are doing their damnedest to keep their inferiors down so that's another angle that's a constant threat you need to watch. And your competitors? Every other devil of your rank is competing with you for promotion and they're sure to capitalize on your absence. So you risk all of that just to go on a bit of a walk about? After you were the lucky one in a million larvae who got a shot at being a lemure? After somehow stayed alive long enough to get a shot at being something even higher than that? That's maybe a handful in every 200k that get that shot and even then they get the privileged of tearing each other to pieces to see which one of them actually get's a slightly higher spot. From there on up it doesn't get much better really. And now you want to risk being demoted and having to go through all of that again?


*If you're wondering why I didn't reference BoVD or FCII, those have been at home in hard copy and I've been referencing what PDFs I had with me.

[MasterFu]

Oh my GOD! This is embarrassing! I can't believe I missed that part >.<
All I remembered about it was that I could cast dimensional anchor on the magic circle if I add the special diagram. Awesome! Now I don't need to waste 2 feats on spell penetration!

But still there's the matter of him escaping by rolling a 1... Anyone know what banishment foci I can use?

Rolling a 1 on what? Per the rules, you can take 10 or take 20 on drawing the magic circle.

[RoboEmperor]

Rolling a 1 on what? Per the rules, you can take 10 or take 20 on drawing the magic circle.

Rolling a 1 on the Charisma check :\

Anyways, an ON TOPIC question XD
What charisma bonus would you add to the negotiation if you promise the pit fiend to give him all of your share of the loot? One build I plan to use this on is completely equipment independent. Even if the charisma bonus is +0, would you still say he would seek revenge?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Depends on how lucrative the job proves to be in the end.

If it doesn't at least match the costs defined in the planar ally spell then probably so.