The Optimum Party?

[Lucid_Archon]

Cleric
Rogue
Fighter
Wizard
The iconic party, time tested and well rounded. While individually these classes may not be the most powerful, together, they function like a dungeon crawling machine. But, is this the optimal party? This is the question I pose to you. Considering the 'average' dungeon, and a four party group, what is the most efficient party roster?

[Macrovore]

druid/planar shepard. by himself. he needs no companions.

[Solo]

Drop the rogue, replace with a full caster.
Drop the fighter, replace with CoDzilla.

[Jacob Orlove]

Beguiler makes an excellent Rogue replacement, giving an "optimal" party of Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Beguiler.

You could add an Artificer in there, but only if you like extra cheese with your cheese.

[Galathir]

I mostly agree with Jacob, I would go with Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard.

Beguiler can handle just about any social interaction, not to mention taking out anything not immune to mind affecting spells.

Wizard has the variety of arcane spells that the Beguiler can't match, especially a "batman" utility caster.

Cleric is obvious healing and other utility spells.

Druid can do secondary healing and some utility spells, not to mention wildshape for frontline melee combat if needed.

[Rigeld2]

Beguiler, Archivist/Cleric, Cleric, Wizard.

[Variable Arcana]

Dang. Beguiler's already been pointed out.

Below level 5, you might stick with an actual melee-type (fighter, barbarian, etc) for one slot. Above level 5, the druid and his companion are usually better.

Yep. Wizard, Cleric, Beguiler and (Fighter or Druid) can handle just about anything level-appropriate.

[Miles Invictus]

Given my limited resources (Core + PHB2), here's what I'd do:

First, I'd swap out the Fighter for a Duskblade. Pick up the scant few utility spells the Duskblade can learn, as well as disintegrate. Power Attack and, later on, Cleave. Quick Draw might not be a bad one, either, so he can draw a weapon and full attack at the same time. Mainly, I'm thinking of switching to a reach weapon instead of five-footing towards a cluster of enemies.

Meanwhile, the Rogue multiclasses into Sorcerer (Metamagic specialist variant) and eventually Arcane Trickster. Along the way, he picks up fly, invisibility, and disintegrate. Yeah, he won't be quite as skilled as a straight Rogue, but fifteen levels of spells is worth the sacrifice, I think.

The Cloistered Cleric dips into Heirophant for Divine Reach. Travel and, oh, Trickery sound like decent domains. No disintegrate, but he gets flight, invisibility, and time stop. I figure he can always use Divine Power to boost his melee prowess.

The Wizard goes into Loremaster and Archmage. See Logic Ninja's guide, you know the rest.

It's essentially your stock party configuration, with a tank and skillmonkey who are a bit more self-sufficient, and a healer who can cover for the skillmonkey in a pinch.

[Fax Celestis]

Beguiler, Duskblade, Archivist, Wizard.

[Fizban]

Druid or Cleric, Wizard, Beguiler, and your choice of full caster. (Not this warmage crap, an actual caster, like the Archivist).

[Draz74]

Beguiler makes an excellent Rogue replacement, giving an "optimal" party of Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Beguiler.

You could add an Artificer in there, but only if you like extra cheese with your cheese.

Precisely.

Without getting into elaborate schemes of PrC-dipping, this is what seems to be the optimal party layout(s) to me.

Heh, imagine a 5-character party with all five of these. Wow.

[clericwithnogod]

If you or your DM is allergic to cheese...Warblade, Beguiler, Wizard, Cleric

If the artificer gets canned for cheesiness, there's no way to not leave out the Druid.

[Roland St. Jude]

Fighting-man, magic user, cleric, and elf.

[Solo]

Fighting-man, magic user, cleric, and elf.

http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives/Jake/8bittheater.png

[JaronK]

Artificer, Archivist, Druid, Cleric.

The Artificer can team up with the Archivist to generate every spell in existance, plus all the gear you'd ever want. Every member of the party can heal and cast effectively, and three of them can tank. The Artificer can also handle the skill monkey role.

Yehaw.

[Seffbasilisk]

The setup my group has now is good.

Barbarian (meatshield/smasher), Monk/Swordsage/Rogue (sneak/secondary fighter), Silver Young Dragon (secondary fighter), and Shujenga/Wu Jen (Healer/weak arcane)

[marjan]

Fighting-man, magic user, cleric, and elf.
I would skip elves because they live long only in books.:smallbiggrin:

[Illiterate Scribe]

Cloistered Cleric1 Archivist 4/Dweomerkeeper 10, Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10, Artificer, Wizard/Master Specialist/Initiate of the Seven Veils.

[Orzel]

ranger, druid, wizard, cleric

When someone manyshots your wizard, you'll wish you had 2 spotters.

[Rigeld2]

When someone manyshots your wizard, you'll wish you had 2 spotters.
See the millions of other threads on why manyshot isnt something to rely on.

First hint: It has a range of 30 feet.

[Ranis]

My group is pretty optimal:

Fighter, Berserker, Rogue, Scout, Sorcerer, Warmage, Druid, Monk, Cleric, and Paladin/Bard.

[Person_Man]

Artificer, Archivist, Druid, Cleric.

The Artificer can team up with the Archivist to generate every spell in existance, plus all the gear you'd ever want. Every member of the party can heal and cast effectively, and three of them can tank. The Artificer can also handle the skill monkey role.

Yehaw.

I agree with this party lineup. But many DMs won't allow Artificers or Archivists. So a more realistic optimum party would probably be Beguiler, Cleric, Cleric, Druid.

Beguiler, as everyone has already pointed out, is an excellent Skill Monkey who also has mind affecting and stealth spells.

Cleric 1 should take the Time and Travel domains (Haste, Freedom of Movement, Contingency, Time Stop, Fly, Teleport). He can tank, buff, and heal.

Cleric 2 should take the Knowledge and Dream domains (divination galore, all Knowledge Skills as class Skills, plenty of Save or Lose spells). He can tank, buff, and heal, but tends to focus on toolbox spells.

Druid is there for battlefield control (spontaneous Nature's Ally works wonders for this, as does Entangle), tanking, and as a backup healer. His animal companion is also a nifty fifth party member, though it becomes a lot less useful at high levels.

Honestly, you don't need a non-Beguiler Skill Monkey (though I usually have the most fun playing one). You obviously don't need a meatshield since Clerics are meatshields+spells. You don't need an arcane caster if your Clerics pick the right domains. Heck, you could probably even do better with drop the Druid and go Beguiler, Cleric, Cleric, Cleric, as long as they coordinate with each other when they build their characters.

[Variable Arcana]

...as long as they coordinate with each other when they build their characters.
Perhaps the single most important secret to creating an optimal party, regardless of what classes are involved.

[Saph]

This is the question I pose to you. Considering the 'average' dungeon, and a four party group, what is the most efficient party roster?

Any roster with smart players. Character class isn't all that important in comparison.

Four smart, good, co-operative players will ALWAYS do better than four bad players, even if they go out of their way to pick underpowered classes. So focusing on character class is a bit of a mistake, I think.

- Saph

[Deepblue706]

4 Black Mages.

[Baalzebub]

4 players that know how to work as a team is much more powerfull than any choice of classes. Period.

[Charity]

Any roster with smart players. Character class isn't all that important in comparison.

Four smart, good, co-operative players will ALWAYS do better than four bad players, even if they go out of their way to pick underpowered classes. So focusing on character class is a bit of a mistake, I think.

- Saph
empasis mine QFT.

Though I think a party of 4 straight fighters would struggle to make a will save between them, a Sorcerer up a tree spamming sleep wold murder the lot of them.

[JackMage666]

Warlock, Monk, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman

No real reason, I just root for the underdogs. Noone gives any credit to these guys.

[Rigeld2]

For good reason :p (jk... I dont think theyd ever be considered the "optimum" party, even with good cooperative players, but they could be interesting to play)

[Artanis]

Samurai, Monk, Warmage, and Bard. The DM will pretty much have to make the encounters easier! :smalltongue:

[skyclad]

4 Black Mages.

They will lack heavy in the sword and chucks department.

[PnP Fan]

Agreed, Saph, 100%.

[Ikkitosen]

Any 4 characters of roughly equal power. Your DM will alter the level of the encounters to match what you can handle (ain't D&D great?) so as long as no-one totally outshines someone else it's all gravy.

[The Gilded Duke]

Warblade (White Raven Tactics), Archivist, Artificer (Blastoficer), Psion/Thrallherd, Thrallherd has a Wizard Cohort

Psion and Artificer are decent at social abilities
Wizard Cohort from Thrallherd is only one level lower and covers arcane
Archivist Covers devine magic of all types
Psion can have a decent amount of psionic abilities, very adaptable to the situation, helps counter the others requirement on preperation
Artificer deals with traps, makes magic items, and kills things

Warblade gives people extra turns and uses the Thrallherd's minions to full advantage.

[Draz74]

Samurai, Monk, Warmage, and Bard. The DM will pretty much have to make the encounters easier! :smalltongue:

You know what's scary? The Bard would be the most powerful party member by far.

[Deepblue706]

They will lack heavy in the sword and chucks department.

What about...Staff-Chucks?

[jjpickar]

Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster, Psychic Warrior, Cleric of an Elder Evil/Fleshwarper, and a Cleric of Correlan with Zen Archery. Not your standard party but I'll bet it can handle itself in most situations.

[Macrovore]

Samurai, Monk, Warmage, and Bard. The DM will pretty much have to make the encounters easier! :smalltongue:
instead of warmage, it should be hexblade. then it really would suck.


but I still mantain the druid/planar shepard. he can do EVERYTHING.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Firstly, though it wasn't in the question posed, I'll go ahead and say that the optimum race for every single character in the party defaults as "human", since without applying cheese, humans are just superior to the other races.

Level 1-10: Swordsage, Warblade, Cleric/Druid, Sorcerer. Here's a team with a lot of good low-level possibilities. Sorcerer is inevitably a better class then the wizard at such a low level due to their superior spells-per-day and the lack of any large variety of arcane super spells for the wizard to take advantage of. Swordsage doubles as skill monkey, might consider giving him a single level of rogue and grabbing the Able Learner feat.

Level 11-15: Replace sorcerer with wizard. Otherwise, the party's still more or less efficient.

Level 16-20: Wizard, Artificer, Cleric, Druid. There's no longer any serious reason to keep melee-centric characters around outside of flavor. In a pinch, the cleric and druid can fill the same role anyway.

21-*: Four wizards. Epic spellcasting is practically an instant win button. Having four of these guys running around would probably be enough to take on the entire world.

[MeklorIlavator]

A party where the back stories will not create TPKs. You know, the party where there is an Orc Barbarian and a Deepwood stalker(the elf PrC with favored enemy-Orc)

My DM almost made this happen(its why I dropped my Arcane build).

[okpokalypse]

ECL 19 Group (That I've played as a part of):


Conjurer 4 / Master Specialist (Conjurer) 10 / Abjurant Champion 5
Great Offensive / Defensive Mage. Wide array of stuff, as well as free quickens on low-level Abjurations and any-level Conjurations.

Favored Soul 17 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Soldier of Light 1
His main focus is group Buffs. His effective CL on his Persists are 28 right now, so they're near undispellable. He's also got his Wings and his Persists give him DR 10 / Magic & Evil, SR 25, Major Stat Bonuses and 60 HP Lightning Discharge (Ranged Touch) Every Round (No Save). Plus the group effects of Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. When he gets L20, he'll get Divine Grace via SoL 2, and his saves will hit 40+/40+/40+.

+ Draconic Cohort: Half Dragon Fighter 15 / Soldier of Light 2 [~400 HP, 40+ AC, 10' Reach, Saves: F 37 R 20 W 29, Base UMD: 33, Goad DC 28]

Psion (Telepath) 18
Yeah, he's L18 (only about 4,000 xp short of L19 right now) where the rest are L19 Right now. He used Mind-Switch, True with a Lilitu Demon and then killed his original Body. Took a 1-Level Loss from doing so - but is now a permanent Lilitu (phyiscally) with all the (Ex) abilities. This includes: Item Use (Use All Items - Automatic), Mock Divinity (Cast Spells as a 9th Level Cleric w/ Trickery & Demon Domains), Shroud Alignment and Tanari Traits (SR, DR, Energy Resists, Telepathy - but not Summon being it Supernatural). Also inherited a 17 Str, 26 Dex and 18 Con.

+ Leadership: Divine Mind 16 [Has a helluva lot more Powers Known via Psychic Chiurgery, and overall is decent Melee w/ Great Saves. His Auras also work in AMFs because they're (Ex) abilities.

The Psion has also aided the Thri-Kreen by implanting a few powers via Psychic Chiurgery there as well.


Thri-Kreen Scout 5 / WarMind 10
He's the melee offensive weapon. He does at least 250+ damage a round, with misses factored in here and there, and when he's in a crowd he does a heck of a lot more. In 1 round, w/ the aid of the Conjurer's Swift Summoning a bunch of Small Earth Elementals around an Enemy, he charged and used Double Strike / Great Cleave to get off 11 swings, dropping him (A few missed). (50+ Damage per Hit, >100 per Crit with a 15-20/x2 Crit Range) His powers let him charge every round & take a full attack - triggering Skirmish.
Obviously, this isn't THE optimized party, but it's very well rounded, and there's little that the group doesn't encompass when all is said and done.

Anyhow... I think the key at high levels is...

1 Full-Progression Arcane Caster
1 Full-Progression Divine Caster + Cohort*
1 Full-Progression Psionic Manifester
1 AMF Buster (Melee)

*If your Divine Caster has a Cohort (They often should - since they all rely on Charisma to some degree) - and it's built to compliment the party, it will usually take the place of the listed 4th Slot. That way, that 4th PC Slot can be anything.

Many argue that 4 Wizards are the best, but I tend to disagree. Having a group that can do all the highest level Arcane / Divine / Psionic things you'd want is more well rounded overall. And they all have their Wish / Miracle / Reality Revision to fall back on in a pinch.

[Assassinfox]

Incarnate, Binder, Factotum, and Bard! :smallbiggrin:

[goat]

Three Gnome Barbarians and a dire Badger.

[The Glyphstone]

Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, and Wizard.

At low levels, the sheer amount of Magic Missiles they can put out will overcome their collective lack of HP. At higher levels...well, they're Wizards.

I know, not serious.

But personally, I want to see a Samurai, Warlock, Shujenja, Monk party. Or failing that, a Warrior/Adept/Adept/Expert party. :smile:

[AmoDman]

I've often wondered what a group of 4 Dwarven Clerics could power their way through levels 1-20...

[ocato]

My last D&D group while playing on vacation (visited some old friends and got to play a handful of stand alone quests)

Fighter/Paladin (Not multiclass, the fighter player and Paladin player took turns being DM so they never fought together and sort of occupied the same role)
Rogue
Bard (me!)
Druid (a cool variant where they get spontaineous casting heals instead of summons and can sacrifice spells to apply an area of effect health regeneration effect. So if she gave up a Level 2 spell, we each got health regen of 2/round for 3 rounds if we were within 30 ft of her, made her more healer-esq, even though her offensive spells were rocketsauce and her wolf was stronger than the fighter.)
Monk (switched characters to a warlock in a later session)

Not the best, nor uber-optimized (throwing in all that extra stuff sort of ruins it for me sometimes, I like classic core classes) but we had a blast.

[Person_Man]

instead of warmage, it should be hexblade. then it really would suck.

Actually, a Hexblade that's built properly is quite powerful, and much more useful then a Warmage.

1) Take the Frightful Presence and a few other Fear based feats. Most of your enemies will have a serious penalty to their Save DC's, and Fear effects stack.

2) Use the PHBII Dark Companion Alternative.

3) Pick up a powerful magic bow. Cast Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon on your arrows. Shoot your enemies and rely on Fear effects to kill them.

4) Use your social Skills to be the party face.

5) At low levels, use Alter Self to change into a more powerful forms. At high levels, use Polymorph. Even if your Caster level is nerfed, you can still use it to turn into some very useful forms.

6) Instead of taking the PHBII Dark Companion (or in addition to, if you're willing to spend the feat on Obtain Familiar) you can also be small race and ride an Improved Familiar. Remember that you share spells with your familiar, which opens up all sorts of combinations.

My favorite Fear build is currently Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Avenging Executioner 5/Disciple of the Eye 4

[Norsesmithy]

The game I felt was the best blend of fun and awesome was Paladin, Scout, Bard, and a Rogue/Theif Acrobat.

We lacked the massive arcane firepower, but since we had houseruled that Windwall and windstorm strength winds imposed a -8 to hit, instead of invulnerability to missile weapons, (among other Nerfs) we did all right.

[krunchyfrogg]

Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian
Dwarf Wizard
Dwarf Cleric
Human Rogue/Bard (do you really need anything past Rogue 3?)

[Ikkitosen]

The game I felt was the best blend of fun and awesome was Paladin, Scout, Bard, and a Rogue/Theif Acrobat.

We lacked the massive arcane firepower, but since we had houseruled that Windwall and windstorm strength winds imposed a -8 to hit, instead of invulnerability to missile weapons, (among other Nerfs) we did all right.

Sounds like a good house rule.

For a non-super campaign, I think just about ANY 4 characters can be fun and effective. I mean, even 4 CW samurai can kick some ass :smallwink:

[Arbitrarity]

Some equal to... 6 kobolds. At level 2. Then they have no HP left.

Wow, just looked, and that class hurts.. so much.

It's like... You are treated as having feat "x", but of course, if you took fighter, you would have gotten enough bonus feats to do all this and more by this level :(. Demoralize isn't that great anyway, and frightful prescence is worth nothing except against MASSES of mooks. At level 20.

[Thoughtbot360]

I would skip elves because they live long only in books.:smallbiggrin:

Ah, but most NPC elves have better sense to go hunting things minotaurs and beholders with only a small group of complete strangers that only agreed to do this incredibly dangerous thing together because they shared a drink in the tavern. (PC elves on the other hand.....)


P.S. Remember kids if have to get drunk somewhere, get drunk in Vegas! That way, when you wake up the next morning you will only find yourself next to a strange woman with a ring on your finger, as opposed to next to a bunch of sweaty guys inside a tight rope trick spell (which is itself, inside a monster-infested dungeon.)

[PaladinBoy]

If the optimum party means "maximum cheese" then I'd go Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Rogue.

If the optimum party means "most fun in the game" then I'd go with:

whatever the players want (within reason) x4.

[Zel]

Beguiler, Druid, Wizard, Wizard

[Leon]

The optimum party is the one that works for you

[JungeonJeff]

The optimum party is the one that works for you

...or the one that has the most fun ? :)

[kamikasei]

The optimum party is the one that works for you

Responses like this seem to crop up a lot in threads like this one, where "what's the best option here" or something similar is being discussed. I have to ask: what's your point?

[Sir Giacomo]

See the millions of other threads on why manyshot isnt something to rely on.

First hint: It has a range of 30 feet.

Second hint: you move 60ft when hasted from lvl 5/6 onwards, then manyshot:smallsmile: Tactics in melee: tumble, move, manyshot (opponent gets one attack), tumble out of threat, move, manyshot etc.

My four-headed group would be
Beguiler, Bard, Fighter and Cleric (best take trickery/magic/spells as shown by greenknight here in post#182, replace sling with comp. longbow): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36333&page=7).
All elves, all focusing on archery. Cleric/bard/beguiler take down opponent's magic defenses with dispels. Vs opponents with sundering tactics (rare, though), try to get non-core archery disarm feats, quickdraw spare bows etc. Vs Smoke/cloud/obscuring mist effects: get seeking arrow ability asap or summon small air elementals. Some level dips into ranger/barbarian /loremaster prestige classes as needed.

- Giacomo

[Thrawn183]

Is there any class (ie. a second party member) that would synergize well with archivist? As it stands, much of an archivist's abilities depend on him/her being able to find divine scrolls. Is there some combination that would essentially take this out of the DM's hands (more or less) like say a chameleon? Using the floating feet for scribe scroll, couldn't the chameleon use down time to scribe every divine scroll the archivist could wish for without really inconveniencing (sp?) himself outside of the xp cost?

[talsine]

Three Gnome Barbarians and a dire Badger.

QFT

seriously though, 2 wizards, druid, cleric. a party full of win. unless poly is nerfed, then replace one wizard with an extra cleric. Melee is overated.

[Leon]

Responses like this seem to crop up a lot in threads like this one, where "what's the best option here" or something similar is being discussed. I have to ask: what's your point?

My point is that there is no set standard that is "Best", what is best is what works for you and what you like

[Ramza00]

No Unseen Seer/AT or Unseen Seer/Spellwarp sniper love?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

For some reason, these arguments have given me an idea (which is probably going to sound absolutely horrid in the morning) to make and run a Modern-based Super Sentai one-shot. Basically, give EVERYONE access to crazy powers as part of a super class, then just let them specialize their roles from there.

Okay, time for bed. This is looking like a good idea to me, and yet a nagging feeling in the back of my head says that it is full of regret and shame.

[Khantalas]

The Optimum Party is a Paragon, a Speedster, an Energy Controller, a Costumed Adventurer and a Mimic.

Speaking of which, I will use the name "the Optimum Party" for a superteam in my game now.

[JaronK]

Is there any class (ie. a second party member) that would synergize well with archivist? As it stands, much of an archivist's abilities depend on him/her being able to find divine scrolls. Is there some combination that would essentially take this out of the DM's hands (more or less) like say a chameleon? Using the floating feet for scribe scroll, couldn't the chameleon use down time to scribe every divine scroll the archivist could wish for without really inconveniencing (sp?) himself outside of the xp cost?

As in my first post in this thread, Artificer is both an A-lister in power, and a great source of every spell you'd ever want. Hence any super optimum party has both an Artificer and an Archivist. Grab all those domain spells if you want!

JaronK

[Thrawn183]

As in my first post in this thread, Artificer is both an A-lister in power, and a great source of every spell you'd ever want. Hence any super optimum party has both an Artificer and an Archivist. Grab all those domain spells if you want!

JaronK

I've looked at the description of the Artificer class on the WoTC website, but I'm confused. How does the Artificer create divine scrolls? I understand that they get scribe scroll: is there some mechanic that I'm missing? Can they just scribe a scroll of any spell?

Finally: can an Archivist learn divine scrolls from a domain? There are some amazing domain spells out there!

[Ramza00]

Artificer can umd the spells he wants similar to how a warlocks 12 can (Artificer item check is UMD 20+Caster Level). They get this ability at lvl 1. Only downside compared to warlock is that when a warlock does it the spell is arcane or divine. With Artificer the spell is an artificer spell and thus when you use scribe scroll you must use a umd check to use the scroll. Furthermore an archivist or wizard can't learn from the scroll for its the wrong type. (The errata made the different types bit to prevent the artificer being the spellbook go to guy.)

[Ramza00]

I've looked at the description of the Artificer class on the WoTC website, but I'm confused. How does the Artificer create divine scrolls? I understand that they get scribe scroll: is there some mechanic that I'm missing? Can they just scribe a scroll of any spell?

Finally: can an Archivist learn divine scrolls from a domain? There are some amazing domain spells out there!

Yes Archivist can do spells from any domain.

Note you can do divine scrolls just like arcane scrolls (points you to this order of the stick)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html

[Ramza00]

As in my first post in this thread, Artificer is both an A-lister in power, and a great source of every spell you'd ever want. Hence any super optimum party has both an Artificer and an Archivist. Grab all those domain spells if you want!

JaronK
Doesn't work read the errata :P

[JaronK]

Doesn't work read the errata :P

Does work, actually. Remember that two people can team up to make a magic item, and that between them they must have the requirements to make it. Thus, the Archivist does most of it... the Artificer just provides the Exp and the spell itself.

The Warlock is even nastier, and can make any spell as a divine spell, allowing the Archivist to cast absolutely everything... but where the Artificer is an A-Lister in and of himself, the Warlock is C list at best.

JaronK

[Zincorium]

Does work, actually. Remember that two people can team up to make a magic item, and that between them they must have the requirements to make it. Thus, the Archivist does most of it... the Artificer just provides the Exp and the spell itself.

I think you're reading way, way too much into the rules, here. Normally, you can have someone else with the prerequisite spell on hand to create a magic item.

However, scrolls have their own rules. You must know the spell in question to scribe a scroll, and the artificer exception would not seem to override this in terms of helping others. In any case, it is not specifically allowed, and as far as I know sharing xp for crafting is only a variant rule in unearthed arcana, not RAW.

Secondly, the scroll automatically has the type (arcane, divine, etc) of the person who created it.

Frankly, in terms of trying to break the game, this is on really rickety standing. It requires the DM to come to some conclusions that aren't based directly on rules, and given how massively overpowering it is, they're very unlikely to house rule it in.

[Thrawn183]

The reason I bring the scrolls issue up is that an archivists strongest ability, IMHO, is the ability to cast spells from the lowest level possible (lesser restoration as a first level spell from the paladin spell list). The problem is when your DM looks at you and says, "Sure its a paladin spell and you can learn it, but where are you going to find a scroll scribed by a paladin? What paladin takes scribe scroll?" (I've just realized that cooperative scribing of a scroll might solve the problem, but gimme a sec.)
I love the archivists ability to cast say Holy Sword at level seven (4th level paladin spell) and make his weapon +5 and holy. Or all the shugenja spells that start to cover some of the utility spells that are sorc/wiz like invisibility or teleport. But is there anyway to truly guarantee you can gain access to those spells? A chameleon would work, but only up to spells of a certain level, and you'd have to wait a while to get spells of higher than level 2 or 3. Any suggestions?

[JaronK]

I think you're reading way, way too much into the rules, here. Normally, you can have someone else with the prerequisite spell on hand to create a magic item.

However, scrolls have their own rules. You must know the spell in question to scribe a scroll, and the artificer exception would not seem to override this in terms of helping others. In any case, it is not specifically allowed, and as far as I know sharing xp for crafting is only a variant rule in unearthed arcana, not RAW.

Secondly, the scroll automatically has the type (arcane, divine, etc) of the person who created it.

Frankly, in terms of trying to break the game, this is on really rickety standing. It requires the DM to come to some conclusions that aren't based directly on rules, and given how massively overpowering it is, they're very unlikely to house rule it in.

Scrolls do not have their own item creation rules... all magic items say the same thing (you must know the spell), but before that section it says anyone can fullfill said requirements. And remember, the Archivist can be the one creating the spell, so it's divine. The Artificer is just providing the knowledge of the spell, and probably the exp.

And yes, it's powerful, but hey, Artificers are damn strong.

So yes, both Artificers and Warlocks can provide all the spells you need via scrolls, and they can do it from any list, including domain spells.

JaronK

[kamikasei]

Scrolls do not have their own item creation rules... all magic items say the same thing (you must know the spell), but before that section it says anyone can fullfill said requirements. And remember, the Archivist can be the one creating the spell, so it's divine. The Artificer is just providing the knowledge of the spell, and probably the exp.

There is a slight difference in wording for scrolls and other kinds of magic item. For most it says something like, "If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast". For scrolls it says, "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed". The reference to having someone else provide a spell for item creation is, "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)".

Thus a case can be made that spells aren't a prerequisite when scribing a scroll, but that rather, you have to actually scribe a spell that you know; and that if they're not prerequisites, they can't be supplied by another.

[Thrawn183]

Ok, the reason I brought up the bit about scrolls was to see if there was a way to make sure that an archivist could learn the spells that would allow them to fullfill their true potential and therefore make it onto the list of classes that would be part of the optimum party.

To try and get this thread back into some semblance of being on track, is there any sure fire method (ie. one that the utterly vast majority of DM's would accept) to ensure that the archivist can get divine scrolls from most, if not all, divine class lists? If not, I feel I must say that an archivist should not be a member of the "optimum party." A cleric or druid has better hp, better access to spells and better class abilities. Most importantly, these abilities are given to the classes in a way that is very obvious and cannot be taken away without a houserule or something of the sort.

I'll ask one last time: is there any way to insure that an archivist gets those spells? If the answer is no, the archivist doesn't deserve to be on the list.

[marjan]

The only insurance you can get is that if Wizard can find all the spells he wants so can the Archivist.

[Realms of Chaos]

My Personal Idea for an optimized party actually uses very suboptimal classes that click together.

1. Hexblade: Yes, this class is considered pretty horrible (but cool), much as it should. However, using the dark companion alternate ability from the Player's Handbook II, combined with their normal hex and Kai Shout (Yes, you heard me), the opponent's AC and saving throws drop like a rock, with each one making the next possible. At higher levels, you throw ennervations into the mix as well. The hexblade is also a martial, spellcasting class who is actually resistant against many other spellcasters. The lowered saving throws opens new avenues for other spellcasters.
2. Warlock: I understand an extreme dislike of monotony, I really do. The fact is, the worlock helps to ensure you can keep battling all day. After all, if you intrude into an orcish fortress, do you expect encounters to magically stop coming after the first 4. No you don't. The warlock is who takes the most advantage of the newly terrible enemy saving throws (courtesy of the Hexblade)
3. Spellthief: This thing is awesome here. The secret, he weilds a sap. Basically, he steals all of those warlock 24 hour invocations and casts them on himself. In addition, he can steal invocations and spells from other unconscious party members (who are already prone and ripe for a "sneak attack"). In addition, trapfinding is quite pointient here. Lastly, they gain their own small pool of spells, including Charm Person. To minimize damage from his sneak attacks, the spellthief is a halfling (who weilds a smaller weapon which deals less damage).
4. Factotum: This guy helps pull the rest of the party together. He works extremely will with the spelltheif as his spells are variable from day to day and the spellthief can steal and use the Factotum's arsenal if he falls. Furthermore, the various abilities of the factotum (including healing) makes him a welcome addition.
5. Binder: The binder, much like the warlock, can keep fighting all day long. Most of their abilities are at will or have a 5 round break between uses. In addition, the binder can assume whatever role is needed of him (including healer, if using Buer).

[JaronK]

Ok, the reason I brought up the bit about scrolls was to see if there was a way to make sure that an archivist could learn the spells that would allow them to fullfill their true potential and therefore make it onto the list of classes that would be part of the optimum party.

To try and get this thread back into some semblance of being on track, is there any sure fire method (ie. one that the utterly vast majority of DM's would accept) to ensure that the archivist can get divine scrolls from most, if not all, divine class lists? If not, I feel I must say that an archivist should not be a member of the "optimum party." A cleric or druid has better hp, better access to spells and better class abilities. Most importantly, these abilities are given to the classes in a way that is very obvious and cannot be taken away without a houserule or something of the sort.

I'll ask one last time: is there any way to insure that an archivist gets those spells? If the answer is no, the archivist doesn't deserve to be on the list.

As before, the line in the magic item rules that says "access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed" means you can use some other spellcaster to provide you with spells, all you need to do is make the scroll yourself. Warlocks can actually make any spell as a divine scroll, which is not debateable, but Warlocks are a support class that doesn't belong in an optomized party. That said, with Leadership you can just get a Warlock Cohort and have all the spells you need.

Without the Warlock, you need to find people capable of creating the spells. If your DM doesn't like the Artificer doing it, he should still allow other classes to help, and the class with the best divine spell list is probable the adept (they get many of the good spells at lower levels than normal). Adepts, conveniently enough, should be common in any campaign. Paladins also have lower level spells (yay level 4 Heal!), and should be common enough.

JaronK

[Rigeld2]

And, as said before, you cant do that JaronK.
Read Scribe Scroll:

Benefit
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.
Do you know the spell youre getting someone else to cast?

As far as Warlocks creating them, that actually is debateable. Its not whether a spell is a divine spell or not that makes the scroll divine - its the creator of the scroll. Warlocks dont say. Course... if Warlocks can create divine scrolls, then why not create a divine scroll with Celerity on it?

[Cthulhu]

Beguiler, Wizards, Druid, Cleric.

Seriously, those classes all win D&D *by themselves* let alone *as a team*

Actually level one would probably suck hardcore (though spells like colour spray are always going to own face), but about level 5 you'd own the universe, and level 9 you'd automatically win D&D

[Thrawn183]

As before, the line in the magic item rules that says "access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed" means you can use some other spellcaster to provide you with spells, all you need to do is make the scroll yourself. Warlocks can actually make any spell as a divine scroll, which is not debateable, but Warlocks are a support class that doesn't belong in an optomized party. That said, with Leadership you can just get a Warlock Cohort and have all the spells you need.

Without the Warlock, you need to find people capable of creating the spells. If your DM doesn't like the Artificer doing it, he should still allow other classes to help, and the class with the best divine spell list is probable the adept (they get many of the good spells at lower levels than normal). Adepts, conveniently enough, should be common in any campaign. Paladins also have lower level spells (yay level 4 Heal!), and should be common enough.

JaronK
I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize. I didn't understand what you were trying to say :smallbiggrin: . I now officially add artificer back into my list of the optimum party: Wizard, Artificer, Cleric, Druid.

[daggaz]

I would say: Fighter, Ninja, Black Mage, White Mage.... tho if you can get thru the icecave for the airship and then get thru that cave in the NE island so you can grow up, without dying first, then a team of all Black Mages does really well, too.


Oh... we're not talking about Final Fantasy? Crap... Ok, Cleric Cleric Druid Wizard then.

[Indon]

Any team with:

-Healing Magic
-Utility Magic
-Hit-really-hardness (Hit-a-lotness can work in a pinch)
-Use Magic Device (other skills also can be useful)
-And a face.

A party consisting of four Warforged, two Sorcerors, one Fighter, and one Bard/Rogue could pull off being highly effective and versatile.

[Satori]

One of my favorite parties consisted of:

-Fey'ri Swashbuckler/Dervish (AC whore...fought defensively with two Broadblade Shortswords and Alter Self'd into a Troglodyte. He carried around a lot of body lotion)
-Dread Necromancer (reguarly travelled with two troll skeletons wielding giant umbrellas, and wore a robe of scintillating colors with a wide brimmed feathered hat)
-Psion/Uncarnate (Incorporealness Oh My!)
-Dark Elf Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Blackguard (Heavy Tank/Healer with gobs of wands. He pretended to be misunderstood and wrongly judged...but wasn't. At all. His mount was a Large Spider named Scruffles)
-Half Orc Monk/Tattooed Monk/Drunken Master (used a modified beer hat that allowed him to drink a tankard as a swift action, but gave a penalty to intimidate)

---

No Cleric

No Caster

No Rogue

Lots of fun

[JaronK]

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize. I didn't understand what you were trying to say :smallbiggrin: . I now officially add artificer back into my list of the optimum party: Wizard, Artificer, Cleric, Druid.

Boot the Wizard for an Archivist, and just take a Warlock Cohort if you must. All the casting of a Wizard, plus all divine spells, and while you lose a few metamagic feats and a familiar you gain a bunch of other random abilities, plus armoured casting. Yehaw.

JaronK

[The Mormegil]

Pelor Cleric (maybe with the CD PrC)
+
Barbarian Fighter Ranger Berserker
+
Wizard IotSV Archmage
+
Rogue Fighter Assassin Arcane Archer

You have all. Everyone extra-focused and extra-optimized. Add a few comboes of PrCs and you have a full-round party.

[Were-Sandwich]

Actually, a Hexblade that's built properly is quite powerful, and much more useful then a Warmage.

1) Take the Frightful Presence and a few other Fear based feats. Most of your enemies will have a serious penalty to their Save DC's, and Fear effects stack.

2) Use the PHBII Dark Companion Alternative.

3) Pick up a powerful magic bow. Cast Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon on your arrows. Shoot your enemies and rely on Fear effects to kill them.

4) Use your social Skills to be the party face.

5) At low levels, use Alter Self to change into a more powerful forms. At high levels, use Polymorph. Even if your Caster level is nerfed, you can still use it to turn into some very useful forms.

6) Instead of taking the PHBII Dark Companion (or in addition to, if you're willing to spend the feat on Obtain Familiar) you can also be small race and ride an Improved Familiar. Remember that you share spells with your familiar, which opens up all sorts of combinations.

My favorite Fear build is currently Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Avenging Executioner 5/Disciple of the Eye 4
This idea intrigues me and I wish to learn more. CW was the first supplement I bought, and even with my newb score still pretty high I could tell Hexblade was one of those classes that sounds cool but ultimately sucks. So it would be pretty cool if I could actually get one to work.

[Latronis]

I've often wondered what a group of 4 Dwarven Clerics could power their way through levels 1-20...

Because i've never linked to the comic before:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html


Really just about any 4 party combo can be an effective party