Hoping to import some of 3.5's rules for epic level games.

[MonkeySage]

I'm hoping to convert some of the epic level rules from 3.5 into pathfinder, and in the process hopefully fix some of the glaring problems with these rules. Having never played an epic level game(but always wanted to), I hoped I could get some advice from you guys.

I know that not everyone liked the epic rules and that's probably one of the reasons there are no official materials for epic level games in pathfinder.

Now, I've read mythic adventures and actually kind of hate what was provided. Mythic Adventures just doesn't appeal to me in any way. I think it looks like a pretty poor substitute for epic games.

A few things I would like to focus on:

Streamline the process of making epic spells(this was a total nightmare in 3.5, i've experimented with it).

Improve on epic classes, keeping in mind the idea with pathfinder classes always getting something when they level up(other than saves, hitpoints, and attacks). I feel like an epic level character should have class levels that genuinely seem epic, and 3.5 did a horrible job of this.

Maybe spellcasting classes should get Epic Spellcasting as a freebie with level 21? Or that Epic spellcasting should have a lower ability requirement(I think it was 30 in 3.5. No level 21 character in 3.5 is going to have 30 in an ability score. At most, 25. Unless you abuse Wish or Miracle, in which case I think that falls into metagaming territory.)

I don't know, maybe you guys can help point out more of the problems and possible fixes to those problems?

[LTwerewolf]

Pretend epic spells don't exist. Seriously.

[MonkeySage]

What were the specific problems with epic spells, other than the creation/discovery process? That's one thing that I was hoping to fix, rather than to omit. I play spell casters, primarily, and that was one thing I looked forward to as a creative exercise when I played one.

I acknowledge that with the previous epic rules, there were inconsistencies; they were broken. Epic level classes didn't feel epic, for one.. Some of the classes got a bunch of cool stuff up until level 20, and then 21 onward they get next to nothing other than epic feats. It's like Wizards didn't care enough to spend time on epic levels and did a rushed job of it.

[eggynack]

The numbers on epic casting are just wonky as hell. Unmitigated DC's tend to be ridiculous and unreachable, and mitigation can go all the way to zero, basically forcing you to take actions that break the system if you want to use the system at all. Getting numbers into a lower range, and forcing them to stay in approximately that range, would be a big step in the right direction.

[MonkeySage]

Let's use the spell Hellball as a starting point, maybe. :)

Evocation [Acid, Fire, Electricity, Sonic]
Spellcraft DC: 90
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 810,000 gp; 17 days; 32,400 XP. Seed: energy (deals 10d6 each of acid, fire, electricity, sonic) (DC 76). Factors: double base area (+6 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factors: 10d6 backlash (-10 DC), burn 200 XP (-2 DC).
A hellball deals 10d6 points of acid damage, 10d6 points of fire damage, 10d6 points of electricity damage, and 10d6 points of sonic damage to all creatures within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The character takes 10d6 points of damage upon casting (in addition to burning 200 XP). The character points his or her finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the hellball is to detonate. A sun-bright, fist-sized globe of energy streaks forth and, unless it impacts a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the indicated range, expands into its full area.

XP Cost
200 XP.

I think it would be easy enough to get rid of the XP Cost, since Pathfinder does not use them anyway. What steps might be taken to fix this specific spell?

The DCs that they attribute to the spell without all of the mitigating factors seem ridiculous and arbitrary. Maybe a more stable system for assigning the original DCs. Ideas?

[Madwand99]

One of our own on this board, lordnequam, has written a Pathfinder epic level handbook conversion:

http://www.jessejackjones.com/pathfinder

It's actually a very nice conversion, our group has used it quite successfully.

[LTwerewolf]

The problem with epic spellcasting is that it can do incredibly arbitrary things to the point of specific wishes. Want to summon a stupidly powerful monster? Sure go ahead. Want to do unresistable nigh infinite damage? can do that too. It's just straight broken.

[Jack_Simth]

What were the specific problems with epic spells, other than the creation/discovery process? That's one thing that I was hoping to fix, rather than to omit. I play spell casters, primarily, and that was one thing I looked forward to as a creative exercise when I played one.
Well, what's wrong with them is twofold:
1) If you do not use mitigation, then by the point where you can reasonably use the spells, they're pretty much worthless. Take that Hellball. It deals 40d6 damage to your opponents (maybe; saves will be pretty good, and many people will have at least some elemental resistances, so more likely it'll do half of 30d6), deals 10d6 to you, and costs you 200 XP (1000 GP, in Pathfinder - basically all XP costing spells had their XP component replaced with 5 times the GP). To make the skill check to cast or research it without buffing or custom items, you'll probably need to be in the neighborhood of level 60.
2) If you do use mitigation, you can do pretty much anything very easily. You think Animating a Planet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=789449&postcount=1) is difficult? Turns out one wizard can pull it off in about a year (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=791074&postcount=9).
Seriously. Scrap Epic Spellcasting entirely, and start from the ground up. Something more along the lines of freeform standard spell research and something to give you trans-9th spell slots to power them would be better.

Skill requirements on everything are easily translated - drop 3 ranks, as Pathfinder does skills slightly differently.