Three Man Party [3.P]

[HereBeMonsters]

I want to help build a powerful three man party.

Goliath (no LA) Bloodrager (Elemental Bloodline) 5 [Untouchable Rager & Spelleater Archetypes]

Warforged (Whirling Frenzy/Spirit Lion Totem) Barbarian 1/ (Dungeon Crasher) Fighter 4
Are going to be two of the builds.

But our third is undecided, I need suggestions. As well as ideas for gear, feats, and so forth.
We allow two flaws
I and the second are considering taking Toughness and Troll Blooded to give Regen to both of them

The third class should be a skill focused caster possibly with the same Toughness and Troll Blooded feats.

[defiantdan]

The strongest 3 man party you could build would consist of a wizard, a cleric and a druid. or any various of those three www, wcw, ddd, ect.

[AnonymousPepper]

The strongest 3 man party you could build would consist of a wizard, a cleric and a druid. or any various of those three www, wcw, ddd, ect.

Not quite. Archivist, Artificer, and either a DWK Mailman Sorcerer (Incantatrix shenanigans, natch), an Arcanist, an Elven Generalist, or a Nuker Wizard (Ultimate Magus, with Warmage). Archivist handles utility casting (for in combat, build him as a summoner and grab a Ring of the Beast from Complete Champion), Artificer is built to... I hesitate to use the word, but tank (while also being a utility caster) and obviously provide gear in addition to trapfinding service, and the Sorc/Arcanist/Generalist/Nuker is there for raw direct damage.

[prufock]

If everyone is troll-blooded, you need someone who can cast energy resistance, protection from energy, and energy immunity. Druid or cleric is the best option.

[AnonymousPepper]

If everyone is troll-blooded, you need someone who can cast energy resistance, protection from energy, and energy immunity. Druid or cleric is the best option.

I honestly ask: why would you play a Cleric when you can play an Archivist? Their class knowledge ability is a lot more fun to use than channeling is, IMO, and the much, much larger potential spell list gives a lot more room to work with. Not that the Cleric list is bad, not by any stretch, it's a tier 1 caster list, but, when you can access the Cleric list, the Paladin list, the Druid list, literally every divine list in existence, and all you have to give up is - temporarily! - domains (Contemplative dip lets you get them right back), channel energy (this being 3.PF), and 2HP/HD. Which is a pretty awesome trade if you ask me.

And then if you ever feel like becoming a god (it's honestly overkill), take one single level in Hathran. Just one. You can go five to get Circle Magic, if you want, and that's pretty good in and of itself, but the gem is Rashemi Spirit Magic, in combination with an extended Acorn of Far Travel and an occasional Teleport spell to refresh the acorn. This gains you spontaneous casting off of your massive spell list. Again, it's COMPLETELY overkill, but it's a thing that Archivists can do, provided they are female humans.

[prufock]

I honestly ask: why would you play a Cleric when you can play an Archivist?

A few reasons:
1. I've never played an archivist, so I can't recommend one from personal experience.
2. Domains (Contemplative doesn't come online until level 11).
3. Turn Undead/Channel Energy for powering divine/domain feats and for expanded PrC access.

[Feint's End]

Well from a pure flavour and power perspective (so aside from the usual cleric, cleric, cleric party though they can of course do this).

-1 damage dealer .... This is the guy who brings the pain reliably.

-1 buffer .... preferably going before the damage dealer in initiative so you can buff him properly. Can be a secondary dd too (like a cleric for example).

-1 crowd Controller ... This guy should go first and cc as much enemies as possible .... best done by arcane casters or manifesters

If you have one character for each of these roles you are on a pretty solid course.

Edit: as for your party

You have 2 dds which is fine but it will reduce your effectivity in the long run. You should decide what you want for the 3rd role. Definitely a caster focusing on either buffing or cc-ing. My suggestion would be cc-ing since the other players already do a lot of damage even without help. Throw out the occasional buff and you are golden.

[AnonymousPepper]

A few reasons:
1. I've never played an archivist, so I can't recommend one from personal experience.
2. Domains (Contemplative doesn't come online until level 11).
3. Turn Undead/Channel Energy for powering divine/domain feats and for expanded PrC access.

1. Trust me, Archivists rock.
2. Honestly, temporarily losing domains isn't that big of a deal. Domains are nice, but they're not that nice that you can't wait for them. Compare it to what you're getting - scaling attack boni for the whole party, a greatly expanded spell list, eventual ability to chainstun a target (no save)....
3. You can still get Turn Undead if you take a level in Sacred Exorcist. Which comes online at 7. Although if you're trying to power DMM, you're going to be quite MAD, needing INT, WIS (unless you have access to the Academic Priest feat), *and* CHA on top of CON.

[Extra Anchovies]

1. Trust me, Archivists rock.
2. Honestly, temporarily losing domains isn't that big of a deal. Domains are nice, but they're not that nice that you can't wait for them. Compare it to what you're getting - scaling attack boni for the whole party, a greatly expanded spell list, eventual ability to chainstun a target (no save)....
3. You can still get Turn Undead if you take a level in Sacred Exorcist. Which comes online at 7. Although if you're trying to power DMM, you're going to be quite MAD, needing INT, WIS (unless you have access to the Academic Priest feat), *and* CHA on top of CON.

The biggest thing going for the archivist, though, is all the awesome low-level spells. Lay of the Land, off the ranger list, is only a 1st-level spell, but for any other full-caster it's three levels higher. There's a fairly good number of gems like that.

[defiantdan]

A few reasons why people might want to play a cleric over an archivist.

-more ACF's (cloistered cleric is awesome).
-immediate access to all clerical spells
-no risk of losing spellsbook and becoming a commoner with a decent will save
-DMM persist
-Ruby knight windicator
-Cheater of Mystra
-Groups shouldn't step on toes, Archivist and Wizard in one group is largely redundant.

I don't much care for the artificer as a main character. They make better cohorts. Their sole class feature is to throw money (lots of it) at encounters.

Cheater of Mystra, Wiz/incant 3/taintedscholar, druid/planar shepard. The game is done.

[defiantdan]

or with tippy level shenanigans Psions. Psions for all. They can know all spells and powers, casting them spontaneously and have nigh infinite castings for cheap.

[Psyren]

For "skill-focused caster" it's hard to beat Beguiler. This would shore up three weaknesses in your party (skills, stealth and control) while letting the two meatshields feel awesome by rolling all the damage dice. Your glitterdusts, fogs, charms and illusions meanwhile will be keeping them from getting overwhelmed and your trap skills will prevent them from getting whittled down by static defenses or tipping off anyone in the dungeon until its too late. I would be a something really subtle and hard to notice like a Whisper Gnome - everyone will focus on the two very obvious/exotic threats and not pay any attention to you until it's too late. UMD would also allow you to keep them both healed up, using a CLW wand and RLD wand respectively (or just a LV wand for both.)

Such a caster would lurk at the back, rolling his eyes at the antics of the two door-smashers, constantly bemoaning (quietly) their lack of subtlety but continuing to hang out with them regardless.

[HereBeMonsters]

Would a Mountebank//Beguiler be a good combo then, seems like the ultimate deal with the devil class and seriously be good at manipulation.

[Psyren]

Eww, no. Mountebank would just dilute Beguiler, delaying access to their more powerful spells and class features for no reason, while Beguiler itself would interfere with the Mountebank's beguiling stare and deceptive strike. They also depend on different stats (Int vs. Cha.) There's pretty much no synergy there.

[HereBeMonsters]

Well I meant as a Gestalt, it was more of a just question because the two seem very much to be about the manipulation of others.
Also why is the liar class speced off Int?

[Extra Anchovies]

There's pretty much no synergy there.

I don't think Mountebank has much synergy with anything. Not even with itself; Mountebank 20 is among the worst possible builds (worse IMO than even anything 10/Risen Martyr 10), because you become a non-player character :smallyuk:
They work in low-level games as fairly solid debuffers, but once things wise up and start getting immunity to mind-affecting the class becomes obsolete. Its sweet spot is 3rd or 4th level, just after it gains access to Mass Beguile; after that it's all disappointment. At least the Beguiler gets some non-enchantment effects.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I don't think Mountebank has much synergy with anything. Not even with itself; Mountebank 20 is among the worst possible builds (worse IMO than even anything 10/Risen Martyr 10), because you become a non-player character :smallyuk:
They work in low-level games as fairly solid debuffers, but once things wise up and start getting immunity to mind-affecting the class becomes obsolete. Its sweet spot is 3rd or 4th level, just after it gains access to Mass Beguile; after that it's all disappointment. At least the Beguiler gets some non-enchantment effects.
I would think that would depend on the type of campaign. If it involves going into cities and dealing with people and trying to charm info or into places the Mountebank still has a nitch. Sure in combat she is gonna fail hard but then again isn't that why they have the two big beat sticks?

[Psyren]

Well I meant as a Gestalt, it was more of a just question because the two seem very much to be about the manipulation of others.
Also why is the liar class speced off Int?

Ah - the standard notation for gestalt around here is two slashes, i.e. {class 1}//{class 2}.

Personally I would have made Beguilers Cha, especially since the fluff calls them sorcerers. But I don't think it really matters either way.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Would a Mountebank//Beguiler be a good combo then, seems like the ultimate deal with the devil class and seriously be good at manipulation.

He did use the double slash Psyren

[Psyren]

Then I am cross-eyed and should take a break from posting :smallredface:

[UmpteenthDoctor]

If dragon mag or so is allowed use lost tradition to switch beguiler to cha focus.

[HereBeMonsters]

Ok after discussing this with my DM we will be making this Gestalt.

So far the look of the party seems to be

Goliath Bloodrager//Warpriest (Elemental Bloodline, Strength Blessing and Weather Domain?) (Untouchable and Spelleater)

Warforged Whirling Frenzy (Spirit Lion Totem) Barbarian/Dungeon Crasher Fighter(Will later go to Warforged Juggernaut)//Brawler (Maybe Monk?)

Tibbit (Dragon Compendium race) Montabank//Beguiler (Using Lost Tradition to synch Beguiler to Cha)

All will take two flaws to gain their Troll Blooded natures.

Each are a survivor style build, so we are expecting a lot of fun.

We plan on buying Rings of Book Ward if at all possible since it protects against Fire and Acid, cast it on clothing or fabric over them to resist fire and acid damage.

Any other suggestions for these builds?