Attacking a ship with magic

[JoeJ]

I've been thinking about putting together a campaign on the high seas, and I got to wondering what it would take for a spell caster to destroy a wooden ship. So I'll put it the wickedly creative minds on the group. What is the minimum level for a spell caster of any variety to be virtually certain of destroying a ship, given the following conditions:

1) The caster is on a different ship; the crew of the caster's ship will maneuver as requested, but won't help with the attack.

2) The target ship has no magic, but it has a full crew of 60 competent sailors who are well armed for both melee and ranged combat, including Renaissance level guns. The target has all the equipment that would reasonably be found on a sailing ship.

3) The encounter takes place at sea, out of sight of land. It's daytime, and the weather is good.

I know we can't get a definitive answer without full stats for ships, but I'd like to at least get a ballpark idea.

[JoeJ]

Also, what about if the crew of the target ship has longbows instead of guns?

[Tenmujiin]

1. Fireball
2. ???
3. Profit

Fire bolt could probably do the trick too but it would take longer.

Guns means gunpowder so fire is even more effective.

A sorcerer could probably work better since he can drop more and better fire spells in the same time.

Edit: Basically a ship vs ship encounter is the PERFECT situation for a fire based caster and now I think of it, lightning would work too (hello tempest cleric)

[JoeJ]

1. Fireball
2. ???
3. Profit

Fire bolt could probably do the trick too but it would take longer.

Guns means gunpowder so fire is even more effective.

A sorcerer could probably work better since he can drop more and better fire spells in the same time.

So, that's 5th level. How is the caster protected from the bullets/arrows of the crew? I don't see how Fire Bolt could work unless the wizard was somehow invulnerable. Otherwise the crew would just kill him and put out the fires.

[jaydubs]

With fireball, it would be a pretty easy angles game. Stand behind a wall just high enough to provide total cover. Aim the fireball at a point 15 feet above the enemy ship's deck. You can bombard their ship, but they can't get sight on the wizard and so can't return fire.

Some ideas for riskier, lower level operations.

The caster loads up on gunpowder and lamp oil. Like barrels full of it. Then he ties a bunch of alchemist fire flasks together, and holds it in one hand. With all this gear on his person, he asks the crew to pull right alongside the other boat. He then misty steps over, with his cargo of explosives and flammable liquids. If the crew immediately kills him, he drops the alchemist fire, which ignites the gunpowder and oil. Big boom, lots of fire, destroyed ship. If they don't, he drops his cargo, tosses the alchemist's fire in the air right before misty stepping back to his ship. Still boom.

Similar, but lower level. Assemble packages of lamp oil and 1 alchemist's fire, 10 pounds each. Get within 30 feet. Mage hand it over. Repeat as necessary. With the right cover set up, you can probably do this from total cover.

As a level 4 druid, you can become something with a swim speed. So just swim on over, and tear a hole in the hull. Or at level 5, cast call lightning beforehand, since you can keep using it during wild shape.

[Demonic Spoon]

I would challenge the idea that Fireball would set the enemy ship on fire. Fireball has a limited ability to actually set things ablaze - that's why casting Fireball on someone wearing normal clothes doesn't set the clothes on fire, or casting it on an enemy wizard doesn't burn up their spellbook. Given that, why should tossing a fireball at an enemy ship be enough to set it ablaze? You'd need some kind of flammable material for that - a Grease spell, or a target consisting of something flammable or explosive like gunpowder.

[Fra Antonio]

I would challenge the idea that Fireball would set the enemy ship on fire. Fireball has a limited ability to actually set things ablaze - that's why casting Fireball on someone wearing normal clothes doesn't set the clothes on fire, or casting it on an enemy wizard doesn't burn up their spellbook. Given that, why should tossing a fireball at an enemy ship be enough to set it ablaze? You'd need some kind of flammable material for that - a Grease spell, or a target consisting of something flammable or explosive like gunpowder.

The spell description specifically says fireball does ignite flammable objects that aren't being worn or carried, so I always assumed it has something to do with how living beings interact with magic in a different way than non-living matter. Or maybe characters are assumed to auto-socceed in protecting things they wear/carry.

But I wouldn't let fireballs auto-ignite ships on its own anyway. Maybe some rags and sails, with the potential of setting wood to fire if the flames are not extingushed in time.

[Demonic Spoon]

The spell description specifically says fireball does ignite flammable objects that aren't being worn or carried, so I always assumed it has something to do with how living beings interact with magic in a different way than non-living matter. Or maybe characters are assumed to auto-socceed in protecting things they wear/carry.

But I wouldn't let fireballs auto-ignite ships on its own anyway. Maybe some rags and sails, with the potential of setting wood to fire if the flames are not extingushed in time.


That's fine, but I don't think that anything that can burn counts as 'flammable' in this context. I agree with you - fireball shouldn't outright set ships on fire, which I thought was what was being implied in some above posts.

[Daishain]

1st level, firebolt cantrip. It would take longer than with fireball, but is no less certain. Some magics can effectively prevent the ship from burning up, but then it just turns into a caster fight followed by firebolt spam.

Early ships are stupidly vulnerable to fire.

[silveralen]

Tsunami almost certainly could unless the DM has some weird ruling about how a 300x300x50 wall of water and a boat interact, but that's reasonably high level.

Disintegrate knocks out a big chunk of the enemy ship, enough to have it sinking, without a save. So that's a decent choice.

Polymorph isn't a bad idea, assuming the caster can leave his own boat if he so chooses. Polymorph into something nasty with a swim speed, dive under water, scuttle the ship from below. The only real option is for the enemy to dive into the water, which could get dicey, but considering the caster can always just swim away, deeper, then come up on the other side of their own boat (while a good portion of the enemy crew is stuck in the water and the ship may have already been badly damaged) its not particularly high risk.

Water elementals could do the same thing if conjured, and would be harder to detect and respond to. Conjured animals fit the bill as well.

Depending on how blight interacts with non living wood it could be helpful, but that depends on the DM, RAW it looks like it'd do little.

Lightning bolt to take out the enemy mast is another solid choice, leaves them dead in the water at least, which may or may not mean victory depending.

Now, with visible gunpowder about literally any fire spell would work for setting off a chain reaction that levels the enemy ship.

As for how to do it without the wizard getting shot full of holes, it's rather simple: wizard hides in cabin, on wizards turn he comes out, casts spell, and walks back in. Unless the enemy crew has constant ready actions on the off chance a wizard pops up (in which case your own crew slowly butchers them) its a non issue. Mix in stone skin if needed.

That gives you an array of options, mostly 3rd level and up, with 6th and 8th level being virtually full proof (though 6th requires you to get rather close).

This is also assuming we are looking for one spell do end it. By level 10 you could toss out 8 fireballs from 150 ft away, which is likely going to destroy a ship. Mix in a sorcerer with distant spell for more safety.

[JoeJ]

Some good ideas here. :)

I would think that setting fires with Fire Bolt or even Fireball would require killing the crew first, or they would quickly put the fire out. Thick wood that has been sitting in the water does not burn easily, and large amounts of gunpowder are not typically stored in the open.

I'm doing this to try and figure out what is required for a plausible setting. If a caster of level "X" is a mortal threat to shipping, then the amount of magical protection most ships will have will be determined by how common level "X" casters are.

I would like the say that the ship has siege weapons mounted, since anybody expecting combat probably would. Unfortunately there are no rules for that yet, and there's no way to guess what kind of range/accuracy/damage they will have.

[Draken]

Flaming Sphere is probably your lowest level safest bet.

Your wizard casts it at its maximum range, 60 feet. Over the course of the next... Lets say, five rounds, he makes the sphere lazily float towards the enemy ship, and then over the last five rounds of the spell, he just rolls it randomly over the surface of the thing lightning long patches of it on fire.

[silveralen]

I'm doing this to try and figure out what is required for a plausible setting. If a caster of level "X" is a mortal threat to shipping, then the amount of magical protection most ships will have will be determined by how common level "X" casters are.

I would like the say that the ship has siege weapons mounted, since anybody expecting combat probably would. Unfortunately there are no rules for that yet, and there's no way to guess what kind of range/accuracy/damage they will have.

I'm fond of thinking back to the sea sprite for DnD nautical combat, and in those books having a magic user of some skill was pretty much a given if you had the resources to do so. I'd assume that'd be pretty much the norm, with the ability of the caster correlating to the amount of financial backing the particular ship has. Somewhere between level 5-8 is about when a single magic user could become a particularly worrying threat to a normal ship, though even just being able to cast gust of wind would be useful for maneuvering.Considering how much spells like control weather could do to improve the safety of a journey, a mid level magic user would be much in demand.

Well, pathfinder has a few statted you could use. Their ballistas had a range either equal to a heavy crossbow or 50% higher, with damage roughly 3-4 times as much. Take those same ratios and sue them with 5e weapons and you have a decent starting point, though this was also before longbows got such a big range advantage on crossbows so you might want to tweak it.

[Daishain]

I would think that setting fires with Fire Bolt or even Fireball would require killing the crew first, or they would quickly put the fire out. Thick wood that has been sitting in the water does not burn easily, and large amounts of gunpowder are not typically stored in the open.

Large ships of the era plaster the portion of the hull that sits in water with pitch. It seals things up so water does not leak in. Unfortunately, pitch is extremely flammable. Hell, I've used pitch soaked wood to start fires on multiple occasions. The stuff goes up fast, and burns hard.

As for the crew, target the top of the sails first. If someone climbs up to deal with it, burn the rigging under their feet. Shift the focus of your fire as required until their sails are completely useless, and then both ship and crew are easy pickings. In many ways, movement equates to life on the open seas.

[Maxilian]

So, that's 5th level. How is the caster protected from the bullets/arrows of the crew? I don't see how Fire Bolt could work unless the wizard was somehow invulnerable. Otherwise the crew would just kill him and put out the fires.

Just get the Spell Sniper feat and you won't have to worry on getting hit (get out of range) and burn their ship with the enemy inside :smallbiggrin:

[JoeJ]

Just get the Spell Sniper feat and you won't have to worry on getting hit (get out of range) and burn their ship with the enemy inside :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, Renaissance firearms do have really short ranges (modern rifles have completely absurd ranges, but that's another subject). The caster probably wouldn't be able to get out of range if the crew was using bows or crossbows though, especially if somebody has the Sharpshooter feat.

I'm thinking that ship owners really need to start worrying about casters at around level 5 (i.e. 3rd level spells). Fire Bolt doesn't look like it's any better than a flaming arrow, and Flaming Sphere has a really short range, but a Fireball would probably kill many of the people on deck as well as start a major fire. A 5th level wizard that starts with two Fireballs - one at each end of the ship - and then uses Fire Bolt to pick off survivors and start more fires, might very well do the job.

[BW022]

I'll point out that unless the person with magic is insane... most ship-to-ship combats do not try to destroy the other ship in its entirety. The main goal is to kill or capture the crew of the other ship such that you can capture the ship and its cargo. Large sailing ships are insanely expensive. Selling and plundering them is a massive profit center to the captain, crew, and/or patron of the ship.

Typically, you'd love to use magic which allows you to kill or disable the crew, and/or disable the ship without risking sinking it or setting it on fire. Summoned creatures on deck, sleep, cloudkill, darkness, etc. would all be useful as would damaging spells which don't set the ship of fire -- ice storm, maybe lightning bolt, etc. If you are careful, you could fireball the sails/rigging and hope the crew can contain the fire -- although non-fire spells would be safer. A disintegrate or powerful summoned creature on the rudder or those near the wheel can effectively make the ship useless in combat.

If you don't care about the ship, then by all means lay a meteor shower on the ship, set it ablaze, lightning bolt or disintegrate a hole in the ship. Then sail off and wait for the ship to sink. If you are only trying to get away, attacks on the sails, rigging, or rudder should be sufficient.

[Maxilian]

Yeah, Renaissance firearms do have really short ranges (modern rifles have completely absurd ranges, but that's another subject). The caster probably wouldn't be able to get out of range if the crew was using bows or crossbows though, especially if somebody has the Sharpshooter feat.

I'm thinking that ship owners really need to start worrying about casters at around level 5 (i.e. 3rd level spells). Fire Bolt doesn't look like it's any better than a flaming arrow, and Flaming Sphere has a really short range, but a Fireball would probably kill many of the people on deck as well as start a major fire. A 5th level wizard that starts with two Fireballs - one at each end of the ship - and then uses Fire Bolt to pick off survivors and start more fires, might very well do the job.

The fireball range is 300 feets and the fire bolt range is 240 feets if you have the Spell Sniper feat and with a longbow you have 600 feets, a heavy crossbow range is 400, the light crossbow range 320 and the shortbow range is 320 with sharpshooter, so yeah, if you find yourself with enemies with the sharpshooter you will get hit unless... you're a warlock with eldrish spear and the spell sniper feat, then you range will be 600, so the only one that will be able to hit you is someone with a longbow with the sharpshooter feat... so it could work (Target the guy with the longbow first and after you are done with him, it will be easier, even if someone else pick the longbow, he will need the sharpshooter feat and i don't think that every enemy in the ship will have that) but yeah, the best idea is to burn it all with 2 fireball on the same turn if you're a sorcerer -using quickened spell-)