Confused about the Bloodrager

[Alberic Strein]

Hello, I'm lost.

When I saw the hybrid classes, my jaw pretty much hit the floor. I just utterly LOVE the concept of the bloodrager, it even comes with an archetype mimicking the armored hulk. There is just something about a juggernaut in a big suit of platemail dropping from the remparts of a besieged town its blade steeped in hellfire and its body wrecked by beyond human powers that makes me go squee.

However, I can't help but be perplexed with the bloodrager's spell selection. It seems rife with spells whose main purpose is to divert the class from actually hitting people. There were some support spells that I liked, namely stone shield, and feather fall, for level1 spells, those two being non-intrusive to face-bashing action-wise, but all in all I had the feeling I was watching the magus's spell selection, except with no spell combat or spellstrike.

Well, honestly by level 4 getting one's hands on a spell storing weapon shouldn't be too hard, so even those evocation-centric spells should see some use, but what, are we supposed to ignore 80% of the spell list? Or is a 2 level dip in magus mandatory? Is that why the 'eldritch scion' archetype exists? But then wouldn't it be better to dip bloodrage and then go eldritch scion magus all the way? Did I miss a prestige class allowing bloodragers to use spellstrike? Is it possible to be decently effective even without dipping magus and thus being only a rage-powerless barbarian in combat? (while this is offset by bloodline powers, I find most of them to be a mixed bag, with some EXCELLENT options, some good ones, some situational ones, and some which definitely don't seem to scale well, so how do they hold up against handpicked rage powers?)

Side point: Why in the name of the Pit is Hellfire strike only doing fire damage :smallfrown:

So basically, if I don't want to make 80% of the class's spell list irrelevant I either need to give up on a 2 handed weapon (going magus) or find a way to get a fifth appendage to hold a quickening metamagic rod (still makes all those touch spells useless), or forego hitting things in the face the time to buff myself with a shield spell or such making my team absolutely hate me and losing turns, going a bit MAD-der, and all that for a VERY limited number of uses per day. Or grabbing the biggest weapon I can find not even bother to invest in charisma past 12 and all but forget that I have caster levels, dreading the day when I reach level four and have to go through the 61 level one spells and looking at all the fun toys I can't use?

tl;dr: Is there no built-in synergy between the sorceror and barbarian parts of the bloodrager or did I miss something major?

[Raimun]

First of all, I would advice you to not dip Magus. Magus Class Features 'Spell Combat' and 'Spellstrike' work only with Magus spells. That is, only with spells cast with Magus spell slots. And yes, even if you gain access to the spell from an other class.

Second, after playing Magus, I can say it's nice to have different kind of spells. Sure, I mostly prepared spells that help me in melee (Touch Spells+Buffs) but it's great to have a few de-buff or blasting spells in store. Sometimes you face invisible monsters and then you're glad you had Glitterdust. Sometimes you see 5-10 monsters in a nice line and you're glad you had that Lighting Bolt... or you know you won't have enough movement to reach your foes, so again: Lightning Bolt.

[avr]

First, you're a spellcaster the way a ranger or a paladin is. Buffs (that might not be worth the action to cast them), or minor utility or situational debuffs like blade lash are most of what you'll cast - until you reach 11th level when you can cast spells on yourself as part of the free action to enter a bloodrage.

Second, check the archetypes. Primalist lets you cherry-pick rage powers too. Metamagic rager does what it says. Blood Conduit lets you combine casting and grappling, of all things.

[Psyren]

tl;dr: Is there no built-in synergy between the sorceror and barbarian parts of the bloodrager or did I miss something major?

As a matter of fact you did :smallsmile:


Greater Bloodrage (Su)

At 11th level, when a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on his Will saves increases to +3. In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell's duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect.

This is how mid-level bloodragers cast buffs and fight at the same time without mainlining quicken rods. Every time you rage you get a free spell - True Strike, Shield, Enlarge Person, False Life, Ironskin, Mirror Image etc.

In addition, before that level, rods aren't so bad either - Lesser Rods are relatively affordable and cover 75% of their spell list, so you can stock up on a couple of them, enough to cover more than one combat. In addition, rods count as maces so you can Quick Draw them.

At low levels, you can either rely on a buffing round or swift/immediate spells like Stone Shield.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I've run a solo game for a Bloodrager going on six months, and I can tell you, you don't need much help in hitting things to death. Feats, Rage and a good two-hander are more than sufficient to kill things.

The class is incredible at solo adventures and handling a myriad of problems. Raging with your Bloodline powers is like swift-casting several buffs at once, which is really quite incredible. You can also use area-disabling spells in situations where you don't want to kill your way though goons one by one, upgrade your mobility to bypass encounters, hit enemies at long range without bothering to invest in ranged combat styles at all. You have some of the best low-level attack spells in the game, as well as wonderful defenses like Mirror Image and a Sorcerer casting mechanic. You get shapeshifting magics, battlefield control, the works.

Certainly, you don't have the ability to do all of these things at once. But with some focus and a discerning eye, you can equip your Bloodrager with options to handle a range of encounters without bothering to resort to screaming violence. And if violence is required, cast Enlarge or Monstrous Physique, then rage and charge.

[Urpriest]

Guys, I don't think the OP is asking about action economy, he's asking about why the Bloodrager has blasting spells when it has no incentive to use them.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Guys, I don't think the OP is asking about action economy, he's asking about why the Bloodrager has blasting spells when it has no incentive to use them.

That's what I thought the OP was asking too. My opinion is that he has blasting spells for two reasons. First, because it makes more sense for the class to have blasting spells than not to have them. Second, because many people find blasting to be fun. This also gives the class that base-line features that can be enhanced via archetypes or through your build.

Personally I find the class to be a ton of fun.

[stack]

Well, having shocking grasp is great for blood conduits, other than that though I would stay away from anything with a save. Figure they seemed appropriate even if not terribly effective.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Guys, I don't think the OP is asking about action economy, he's asking about why the Bloodrager has blasting spells when it has no incentive to use them.

Just because an option isn't Theoretically Optimized isn't a reason to remove it from a class list altogether. Game forums like ours set a fairly high standard for what build choices one ought to make.

I can certainly imagine a Bloodrager enjoying the option of smacking a horde of foes with 10d6 fire damage before charging into the fray. They're not blaster specialists, but damage is damage and area damage can be pretty efficient when dealing with large numbers.

[Psyren]

Well, it gives them a ranged option that isn't "I take out my bow." It's not ideal obviously because saving throws, but it's also not the kind of ability you expect a glorified barbarian to have, and Sun Tzu will tell you that defying the enemy's expectations is pretty much never a bad thing.

Remember too that classes aren't just for the players; giving an NPC bloodrager suboptimal spell choices is a good way to tone it down as well as mix up combat. Say a low-level party is facing an NPC bloodrager and decide to drop a web to help control the battlefield - then suddenly, the bloodrager breathes a cone of flame and turns the webs to kindling. A move like this can easily surprise/unsettle the players, and it'll stand out much more vividly than simply "he casts shield."

And finally, in-universe , the spontaneous classes like these may not have control over the spells they learn. Players are given that choice for the sake of fun but it's quite possible to put together an NPC bloodrager, bard, sorcerer etc. by just randomizing everything.

[Raimun]

Well, it gives them a ranged option that isn't "I take out my bow." It's not ideal obviously because saving throws, but it's also not the kind of ability you expect a glorified barbarian to have, and Sun Tzu will tell you that defying the enemy's expectations is pretty much never a bad thing.


Exactly.

And sometimes, casting a sub-optimal spell is better than doing nothing... or just moving to reach your enemies. In actual play, situations change and the game is hardly ever the kind of rocket tag some people would led you believe.

Besides, optimization is often written in the point of view of a Wizard. Spells that Wizards find useless might be surprisingly good options for non-Wizards. Lightning Bolt is a good example of this. For a wizard, it's hardly ever the good option. For a Bloodrager or a Magus, it's a decent ranged option. You don't have to switch weapons or invest to ranged weapon-Feats. Also, you'd be surprised how low Reflex-saves many monsters have. And lightning isn't resisted as often as fire or cold. Finally, 10D6 Lightning Bolt is about 99,99% of the time better option than a single 1D8 arrow/thrown weapon, especially since it can hit multiple opponents.

Besides, which is more fun? Doing nothing but moving during your turn OR moving and shooting a bolt of lightning at your foes? ... Possibly even finishing one or two? I'm just saying that I know the answer from personal experience.



Remember too that classes aren't just for the players; giving an NPC bloodrager suboptimal spell choices is a good way to tone it down as well as mix up combat. Say a low-level party is facing an NPC bloodrager and decide to drop a web to help control the battlefield - then suddenly, the bloodrager breathes a cone of flame and turns the webs to kindling. A move like this can easily surprise/unsettle the players, and it'll stand out much more vividly than simply "he casts shield."

And finally, in-universe , the spontaneous classes like these may not have control over the spells they learn. Players are given that choice for the sake of fun but it's quite possible to put together an NPC bloodrager, bard, sorcerer etc. by just randomizing everything.

That's an excellent point. Gishes and the like are usually fun opponents.

[Anlashok]

Just because an option isn't Theoretically Optimized isn't a reason to remove it from a class list altogether. Game forums like ours set a fairly high standard for what build choices one ought to make.
You know there's a lot of room between "Not TO cheese so it's crap" and "wow this class has a bunch of spells that are weirdly inappropriate and don't have any synergy with its chassis and other class features, that's kind of odd".

Sort of silly to jump straight from one to the other. Unless being hostile and dismissive is the intent, then it's just rude.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

(Actually, if you go three levels magus, you can pick up Broad Study, which lets you use non-magus spells with spell combat and spellstrike)

[grarrrg]

(Actually, if you go three levels magus, you can pick up Broad Study, which lets you use non-magus spells with spell combat and spellstrike)

(Broad Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/broad-study-ex) has a requirement of Magus _6_, which pretty much kills it from ever actually being useful outside of gestalt)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Wow, forgot about that. Yeah, that sucks for that; its not too bad for theurge builds.

[Abd al-Azrad]

You know there's a lot of room between "Not TO cheese so it's crap" and "wow this class has a bunch of spells that are weirdly inappropriate and don't have any synergy with its chassis and other class features, that's kind of odd".

Sort of silly to jump straight from one to the other. Unless being hostile and dismissive is the intent, then it's just rude.

Owch. No, not the intent to be dismissive / hostile. Apologies that it read that way.

I'd be interested to know where you fall on the matter of the original question, re: whether these spells have any synergy with the other class abilities. I would gladly say that, were I interested in making a blended blaster sorcerer/rage warrior, an Eldritch Scion magus has better overall casting ability and would probably make a better choice.

However, there is one thing a Bloodrager does really well, compared to other gish classes: stand in the middle of his own Fireballs, cackling wildly. Between the save bonus he gets against his own (and his allies') spells, and options for bloodline-based Elemental Resistance (eventually immunity), there are not many other warriors who can basically drop grenades at their own feet whenever they get surrounded.

They absolutely do lose this ability when not cackling wildly. It's in the FAQ, I swear.

[Psyren]

You know there's a lot of room between "Not TO cheese so it's crap" and "wow this class has a bunch of spells that are weirdly inappropriate and don't have any synergy with its chassis and other class features, that's kind of odd".

Sort of silly to jump straight from one to the other. Unless being hostile and dismissive is the intent, then it's just rude.

His post seemed perfectly fine to me. If anything, you're the one leaping to the spells "not having any synergy" and being "weirdly inappropriate" apropos of nothing.