OOTS #428 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Apologies again for the lateness, but as is often the case, the extra time gave me some additional ideas that expanded the comic to two-and-a-half pages.

[Tass]

Nice one. As a magician i liked the con joke. I actually do the shell game with cards myself. Although I do not actually palm the rigth card, nor do I take anyones money :)

Good job Haley! This is going to be interesting now.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well worth the wait. Well done, Haley!

I guess we can add invisibility to Xykon's spell list...

[Wanderer]

Ha! Perfect. Using paladin psychology against them. And here comes the Xykon... Now would be a great time to have, oh say, a WIZARD with them... Or a Cleric. Durkon, blast him now.

[Kalessin]

Actally, this was the first OOTs comic that could make me scream in laughter. Some of the others are even better, but it had a nack in it.
:haley: Do you see anything?
Pure genius.

[M._A._Foxfire]

And Haley once again proves why she's the second in command.

[Dratsabre Tsabala]

YES. Oh, yes. I owe so, so many of my friends an "I-told-you-so" on the "which is the real Xykon?" issue.

[Hinton]

No problem with he lateness, Giant. Hope everything was ok.

Great, great comic. There was a great deal of speculation about which one was real and even a few speculating that none of them were; guess those that said "none" were right. In fact, I think someone (can't recall who exactly) mentioned something about Xycon's flying mount was also missing.

"It's Pat"...ahahaha! That's hilarious.

[RowlieBowlie]

*grins*

yep who'd have thought of the fact that Xykon would be hiding in plain sight.

Another classical roar of laughter to add to the series of Oots.

Miss Starshine saves the day... for now.

[Eloco]

Oh my indeed :)

[carais]

Not a funny one, that (excepting the paladin line), but, ooooh, is it a nice one. Especially when I imagine that part with the dragon's wings beating. The only thing I do not get is "it's pat".

[The_Cardinal]

Pleasantly startling comic

[Kyace]

I do say, I loved the wind effects on the capes and hair (and crown)

[FlawedParadigm]

Oh thank you for the dose of funny just in time before I left for work. I owe you one, Giant.

...It's Pat...snort...SNL FTW.

[Dhavaer]

"it's pat".

It's a reference to another androgynous character, this one from a TV show. Pat was eventually revealed to be female.

[denelian]

oh the brilliance!!!

[Paramajic]

UH OH!
Well worth the wait. Thanks Giant.

[Mr Wizard]

Hoooly Paladin! Durkon go! :D

[Psychonaut]

That had to be one of my favorite ending panels in the comic thus far. You did a great job building up (and maintaining) the suspense.

Edit: Although I have to admit, I was sure the Xykon in the back was the real thing, just based on his nonchalant attitude and forgetting of the protagonists' names. Nice job with Haley's revelation.

[Grimoa]

Awesome!

So all the people guessing that none of the three Xykons were real were right.
And the real one on the dragon has no nacklace (naturally).

Great! Now I can go to sleep...

[Delgarde]

Love Sangwaan's reaction... "Oh. Oh my."

Excellent comic, Giant.

[Romnipotent]

I knew it!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2209235&postcount=162
I stipulated he was riding in on the zombie dragon... Ok I didn't get the invisible part though.
Lets hope that dragon dies like any other zombie...

Well, now I can rest easy.

[rawling]

Heh, didn't see that coming :/

[Single Shot Zombie]

Yee! Giant invisible flying zombie dragons for the win!

[arkwei]

Hmm. This strip rocked, which is my first reaction. But then: So Xykon is here already. The battle has not even heated up yet! So OotS has to engage Xykon right now, but ... but I totally thought that would be some sort of grand finale, not at the beginning of the battle. So is Xykon retreating, or something else is going to happen?

[AtomicKitKat]

Heeee's heeeereeee!

[Querzis]

Yee! Giant invisible flying zombie dragons for the win!

Wow, he is right in front of them. Does that means Xykon as been nonchalantly flying over their head since the start of the fight? Anyway, the OOTS need a dispel magic fast.

[SquirrelKing]

Well, I suppose that answers that question. Now...strike him down, Roy!! :D

[morbiczer]

Ha! I always thought that all three Xykons were decoys. The missing dragon was a big hint into this direction.

Do we know what sort of breath weapon Xykon's dragon has? The OotS and Hinjo are nicely lined up. :)

[CelestialStick]

I knew it!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2209235&postcount=162
I stipulated he was riding in on the zombie dragon... Well, now I can rest easy.

Romnipotent, I'm so glad you posted this! When I read the strip and saw Xykon revealed on his zomibe dragon I immediately remembered that someone had predicted this very thing, but I couldn't remember who. I was just going to post that whomever had predicted it was correct, but then I saw your post, showing that you had predicted it, so I can say, kudos to you! You were dead right! Well done! :smallsmile: You are indeed rominpotent, or at least romniscient. :smallwink:

[Delgarde]

Hmm. This strip rocked, which is my first reaction. But then: So Xykon is here already. The battle has not even heated up yet! So OotS has to engage Xykon right now, but ... but I totally thought that would be some sort of grand finale, not at the beginning of the battle. So is Xykon retreating, or something else is going to happen?


Oh, I think we can assume he's not retreating. Redcloak's plan seems obvious enough now - three distractions, while the real Xykon takes the most direct route possible to the throne room. Of course, being Xykon, he's taken a detour past the heroes so he can have a good laugh at how he's outwitted them.

As to the battle being right here, I don't think so. Xykon's in the air, afterall, with no particular reason to endanger his plan by starting a fight up on the battlements. He'll keep heading for the throne room, and they'll have to chase him on foot, with a big climactic battle there.

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't know if zombie dragons get a breath weapon, but if they do, it'll be cold as it's a silver dragon.

Another note: I like the detail of Sangwaan having the parenthesis around her eyes.

Several things coudl happen now:

1. Roy randomly strikes the dragon with his sword, causing it to crash.
2. Durkon turns/destroys the dragon.
3. The invisibility is purged.
4. Efforts to stop him here fail and the PCs head to the tower, leaving Hinjo to direct the defense of the walls.

[Roderick_BR]

And Rich proves once agan he's a narrative genius. I love those comics where the characters put their brains to work, countering each other's tactics.
And love those "sudden realization" momments.

On a second note, yeah, they are screwed... XD

[Querzis]

Ha! I always thought that all three Xykons were decoys. The missing dragon was a big hint into this direction.

Do we know what sort of breath weapon Xykon's dragon has? The OotS and Hinjo are nicely lined up. :)

Well he was a Silver Dragon but does Zombie Dragon still have their breath weapon?

[Fingolfin]

Keep all the time in the world Giant if you are going to make comics like this one :D Very veeeery interesting one!

[Swordguy]

A ruse that relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him? Against a league of paladins? Easy money.

Ha! Gold. Pure gold.

[Delgarde]

I don't know if zombie dragons get a breath weapon, but if they do, it'll be cold as it's a silver dragon.

Yes, they've got the same breath weapons as the living dragon, so this one will be Cold. From memory, it's weaker than normal - I think half the damage is half what it was when alive.

[Imgran]

Of course if you wanted to beat Xykon at his own shell game there's an easy answer -- if the gang can figure it out.

Take down Redcloak.

Smash the phylacterie

[skinkatlarge]

:haley: "A ruse that relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him? Against a league of paladins?" and "I'm not done expecting other places yet." Sheer Awesome.

Also, YAY for Roy's "No. But I trust her gut."!!

I was wondering before how they expected True Seeing to work when cast by a blind seer, but I'm not nitpicking it. It's magic!

Too obvious to be a spoiler -> I was thinking Belkar should almost be able to smell him, that close - which made me remember "Wait! Xykon ain't alive!" (nor the dragon). Looks like Belkar will have some immediate use within the city limits, after all!

But I don't think the gang have any hint that Redcloak has the phylactery. For all they know, it could be on the next continent over. Hopefully they at least studied up on liches a little, though.

[Haruspex]

Actually I don't think they get a breath weapon at all. They lose all special attacks that they had in life, IIRC.

[pendell]

Great!

Points to the Giant. You totally, TOTALLY played me. I was sure it was the Xykon in the back.

And congrats to the very significant 39% minority that figured it out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[InuSaga]

Oh (expletive deleted)!

But, hey. I was right about Xycon. Only it was Haley that figured it out instead of Roy.

Ha-ha. Belkar. "Considerable assets." Genius. ^_^

[Imgran]

I think you have to be breathing to get a breath weapon.

OK, now we've figured out that Xykon is pretty strong. He took out a very high level wizard with his magic and toyed with a very powerful and devoted Paladin back at the watch tower.

But he IS undead, and more importantly, so is his ride. By charging in there pretty much alone, even as badass as he is, he's attacking strength on strength instead of strength on weakness. I think O-Chul's logic back on 417 applies here -- sure he can take down 1 paladin no problem, but 100? Even if they don't take HIM down, 100 paladins should be a match for his ride and strand him where he can be easily overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

The reason he feels brave enough to do this? Simple. Redcloak's amulet can regenerate him no sweat if something goes wrong.

The "ball" isn't even on the dragon, folks. It's around Redcloak's neck.

[BisectedBrioche]

Curse those "all three are fake" people for making me wrong v_v.

[Mr Teufel]

If we're calling dibs on who thought of this first, well, Lostboy posted it in #426 comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2195734#post2195734). Credit where credit's due, and all. I havent gone all the way back to see if he was ninja'd either.

Not that it matters. I'm pleased that Haley worked it out - that's the main thing for our heroes!

Lostboy was the first to make with the undead dragon proposal. Others before him guessed none of the Xykons were real.

And li'l ole me picked the right cherries outa Lostboy's speculation! Yay me!

[Martichoras]

Sweet! Lovely shell game, and it can't be said frequently enough that

:haley: "The con isn't in getting you to pick the wrong shell. The con is in getting you to accept that the basic premise of the game is still being followed. The con is in getting you to pick a shell at all."

[tis_tom]

Without Vaarsuvius they seem to me to be at a severe disadvantage, as he/she is the only one who has taken down a dragon before! (mmm... high level evocation...) But then again if V wasn't at the breach the whole city would be overrun...

Curses that there isn't more than one V!

[Threeshades]

I KNEW THEY WERE ALL DECOYS! I said it like three times but everbody's just ignoring me. That's what you get when you dont listen to me.

To the Giant: Awesome new strip, and its no problem it was late.

[fizzbang]

Actually I don't think they get a breath weapon at all. They lose all special attacks that they had in life, IIRC.

More important than whether or not it has a breath weapon, I think, is whether or not Durkon can turn it.

Some mechanics geekery behind the spoiler: Assuming he's at the same level as V, Durkon's packing 13 levels of Cleric. That means, if he really aces his turn roll (d20 + Charisma >= 22), he could turn up undead up to his level +4, or 17 hitdice. And he doesn't have to be able to see the target, so that'll ignore the invisibility.

The Zombie template doesn't add any hitdice or turning resistance to the original creature, and it looks like that dragon's either Large or Huge. It used to be a silver dragon, so looking on the silver dragon age chart for their sizes and hit dice... It ranges from Juvenile as the weakest Large (16 hitdice) to Very Old as the most powerful Huge (31 hitdice). Even the other Large category, Young Adult, has 19 hitdice, so it's out of Durkon's range.

So, unless that's a Juvenile silver dragon zombie, or Durkon's got some fancy turn-enhancing tricks up his armored sleeve, turning's got no chance.

Best get to fightin', Order!

(edit) Oh, and I almost forgot to add: Great stuff, Giant! No problem about the lateness - I hope things got well taken care of!

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, the dragon is undead, and Durkon can hold his own against undead foes. I think it's time his turn undead succeeded for once!

[Ravenlord]

I hope it won't be something anticlimatic... like xykon getting beaten down in two strips >_> loving it so far, anyway.

[Jaguira]

I love the "It's Pat" bit xD That made me smile.

[sun_tzu]

Very clever plot by Redcloack.
Excellent deduction on Haley's part.
Roy being quick on the uptake.
Excellent comic.:smallbiggrin:

[Aquarius Viator]

This One Rocks :]

[SumGuy]

...

Awesome!!!!!!

[meep]

Jackpot!

And I was so sure the one in the back was real. Dang.

[GKBeetle]

Loved the It's Pat reference from Belkar. I had totally forgotten about that Saturday Night Live character. Fo anybody who doesn't know, It's Pat was a running skit on SNL about a character that nobody could figure out the gender on. Belkar's awesome.

[fwiffo]

Meh. I understand where Giant went with it, but I don't think it really works. If there was one fake Xykon, nobody would be wondering where Xykon is - everyone would be making plans to head over to that target.

Now, there is some value in a creating an action that your opponent will think is your deception, which is not - it is really more of your attempt to have them think it is your deception. So, a feint of sorts. But, that relies on the opinion that your opponent will be looking for a deception, so you should give them the wrong one. And they wouldn't be. Redcloak is deceptive, but Xykon isn't; and as far as Azure City goes, Xykon is leading the assault. So, by creating a fake deception, you are giving other side information you should not be. So, you give away your game - that you are attempting a deception, when you opponent had no reason to suspect that. Redcloak should've realized this. He is a darn smart goblin, and it is not like him to make a mistake like this.

The first rule of good con is not to have your target wondering what the con is. The first rule is to make it look like it is not con at all.

Thus, meh on the strip.

[Blaznak]

Hey! I think this may be one of the better written OOTS's in quite a while. I =loved= the logic Haley is employing to outwit, well, keep up with, Xykon. It was also great to see the giant undead dragon get used so effectively. Very nice.

Belkar's quip on "Its Pat" was hilarious and approriate timed! Very good work, I'd say... :smallsmile:

[Mawhrin Skel]

I suppose the speech of the pink-amulet-wearing "Xykon" from the #426 also makes sense if it's a hobgoblin general. So, pinky is IMO a general, greeny a cleric or blackguard. I still don't know who or what browny is, except that it's undead.


If there was one fake Xykon, nobody would be wondering where Xykon is - everyone would be making plans to head over to that target.
There is also value in causing the OOTS (or high level paladins) to separate.

[Nightfall]

I love that each character (it seems) is getting a chance to prove WHY they are the masters of their own balliwick.

Haley, I love you!

[Imperator]

Second panel steals the show for me.:smallsmile:

Caption: Huh?

[Adeptus]

Woo! Best. Strip. Ever!

(ok, maybe not absolutely "teh best evar", but very, very good).

I love it. Everybody is being clever and competent, and there's Xykon goodness to come.

Way to go Giant!

[Nikolai_II]

Hmm. This strip rocked, which is my first reaction. But then: So Xykon is here already. The battle has not even heated up yet! So OotS has to engage Xykon right now, but ... but I totally thought that would be some sort of grand finale, not at the beginning of the battle. So is Xykon retreating, or something else is going to happen?

Something else, like, say, him flying past them?

Since they have no wizard and Xykon doesn't want to stop and mess with them (probably) then they'll have to run after him, hoping that they manage to catch up before he does something vile and horrible. Or they'll get busy with hobgoblins or flying half-celestial zombies.

Really nice con game, and I'm with the one that thought (erraneously) that the rear Xykon was the right one, but I guess he's just the one with the best bluff score ;)

[IlanaAeryn]

Yay fo' Haley! It's felt to me like the characters have been secondary to plot lately, and it was great to see her assert herself.

:vaarsuvius: "It's Pat".... *snickers*

[Lairek]

I really, REALLY, enjoyed this one. Especially the dragon is awesome!

[Brawl]

Wind? Priceless :) But with OOTS divided Xykons may win o.o
More strips on this matter I would like see to, hmmm? - Yoda :D

[berrew]

I assume X was there for a while, waiting for them to take one of the baits or even split up, before picking his target.

[Antina]

WOW!!! I suspected that one, but the wind-thing! Greatly done!

[Baalzebub]

I totally forgot about :xykon: riding the undead Dragon!!! Now everything makes sense!!

Oh, and :haley: totally rocks in this one. Good comic Giant!!

[SPoD]

Meh. I understand where Giant went with it, but I don't think it really works. If there was one fake Xykon, nobody would be wondering where Xykon is - everyone would be making plans to head over to that target.

Now, there is some value in a creating an action that your opponent will think is your deception, which is not - it is really more of your attempt to have them think it is your deception. So, a feint of sorts. But, that relies on the opinion that your opponent will be looking for a deception, so you should give them the wrong one. And they wouldn't be. Redcloak is deceptive, but Xykon isn't; and as far as Azure City goes, Xykon is leading the assault.

You could also say that the paladins might have been expecting a deception from a Chaotic Evil lich, so Redcloak served them one on a silver platter. He knows their alignment, they know his alignment, he knows they know his alignment, etc.

Besides which, Xykon deceived the OOTS by employing the goblin teenagers, by trying to trick Elan into touching the gate, by escaping from the dungeon unnoticed...there's no shortage of trickery on Xykon's part, even if you limit it to things the OOTS knows. The idea that Xykon isn't deceptive at all is ludicrous, and even if we the readers know it's not his strength, the paladins wouldn't. A Chaotic Evil lich is likely to be considered a tricky customer.


So, by creating a fake deception, you are giving other side information you should not be. So, you give away your game - that you are attempting a deception, when you opponent had no reason to suspect that. Redcloak should've realized this. He is a darn smart goblin, and it is not like him to make a mistake like this.

You're missing an important point: That the OOTS (or the Azure City elite characters) can probably destroy the decoys in one or two rounds. If Redcloak puts up one decoy, all of the high level characters rush at it (which is good) and then destroy it immediately (which is bad). They then know that it wasn't the real Xykon anyway, and immediately begin looking for the invisible one. Redcloak has earned maybe 2 or 3 rounds before the jig is up.

By putting three decoys out, Redcloak forces them to waste the time destroying Decoy #1, moving across half the battlefield to Decoy #2, destroying it, and moving across the rest of the battlefield to Decoy #3 and destroying it. That's a lot of wasted time on the part of the highest level characters, maybe even 10 minutes (an eternity in D&D combat). Or, the PCs split up and risk being killed by lesser foes like hobgoblin clerics or ghasts or something.

The goal wasn't to fool the high-level defenders into thinking that Xykon is really there. It's to tie them up for as long as possible before they know for SURE that Xykon ISN'T really there. That requires more than 1 decoy. Heck, if he could have squeezed out 7 decoys, it might have been even more effective.

Luckily, Haley refused to take the bait at all, and did exactly what Redcloak didn't want: a very quick exposure of the ruse.


The first rule of good con is not to have your target wondering what the con is. The first rule is to make it look like it is not con at all.

It may be the first rule, but it's not the only way to go. Many cons rely on tricking the mark into overconfidence that he knows what the con is and has beaten it, only to find out that the con was never what he thought it was.

[Tarx]

I gladly accept a defeat. That was an excellent way of demonstrating a con. Woot!

[Eldritch Knight]

Very, Very nice. Does anyone else see a melodramatic climatic conflict?

[nadira]

I must admit, I actually said "WTF" out loud.
This is amazing.

[warmachine]

I didn't think you could make a dragon invisible as well as one's self, so I never thought of this. I guess that's why I play clerics and paladins, not rogues or wizards.

Xykon is being stupid by flying that close precisely because of the non-visible effects of flying. Attention to detail is important, which Xykon is infamous for ignoring. That's why I play a cleric or paladin.

[Erimore]

Awesome comic. I love the confused looks when Haley announces, "It's a shell game!"

For those wondering how long Xykon was there, he just arrived... the "whoosh"es start small and get bigger (as his chariot arrives).

Peace.

[Estelindis]

Oh my goodness... Fantastic comic - but GAH! :smalleek:
I hope Sangwaan and Durkon have Greater Dispel Magic prepared... With Xykon's CL, it may require a few attempts! We've got a nice little confrontation squaring up. :smallamused:

On the non-shocked side of things, nice bit of thinking by Haley - interesting that she can think similarly to Xykon and Redcloak, and yet another reason why it's great she can speak again. :smallsmile:

[Tarp]

may I just say... Boyaa! (or how ever you spell that...) damn Xykon is tha man, he is now more than ever the best villan ever in comics

[Galathir]

Amazing comic! The last panel almost scared me and for an ending panel, it has to be one of your best. Great comic and certainly worth waiting for.

[AznEclipse]

Ladies and gentlemen, Rich Burlew, master storyteller. Amazing. -J

[Lefty the Drunken Lush]

It's Pat...... ROFLMAO

[ref]

Amazing! And yay for 2.5-length strips!

[Tobrian]

Strike! I'm psychic! :smallsmile:
*does Elan's happy dance*

Originally posted in thread OOTS #426, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2196983&postcount=144):

Roy not thinking far enough. Let's hope either Elan or Haley will have the right idea. Elan sounded as if he was catching on, but his INT and WIS are abysmal. Haley might (we haven't seen her reaction yet), but what the OotS really needs at the moment is a con man, a cardsharp, he would look through this right away. Maybe one of the convicts? One of them is standing right beside Haley in the line of archers. Or maybe Belkar? He's devious enough to think like Xykon. WWXD... What Would Xykon Do?
(snip)
My bet: It's a shell game. If you're a con man using sleight-of-hand to swindle gullible passers-by, traditionally the pea is under neither of the three cups, until you lift the last one (which is of course not the one the victim pointed to) at which time you put the pea there to "reveal" it. The pea, the real Xykon, is somewhere else entirely.

After all, if Xykon and Redcloak went to the length of making two decoys, why not make three? It's obvious.(snip)

Methinks Hinjo and Roy really are a bit too lawful for their own good.
Hinjo: "Can someone explain it to me?" *sigh* And I thought paladins had high WIS scores!
Not being deceitful yourself is fine and dandy, but not even being able to consider the possibility that your chaotic evil enemy might be duping you is a sad thing. Do they teach how to attain negative values in Sense Motive in paladin school these days?


Ominous wind... I was wondering where the undead dragon had got to. Let's hope a zombie dragon can't use breath weapons. :smalleek: Belkar, your target for mayhem and violence is about to land! Enjoy.

[SCAScot]

Nicely done.

All the clues were there, even the invisible flying un-dragon. And I totally missed them.

[Vargtass]

More important than whether or not it has a breath weapon, I think, is whether or not Durkon can turn it.

Some mechanics geekery behind the spoiler: Assuming he's at the same level as V, Durkon's packing 13 levels of Cleric. That means, if he really aces his turn roll (d20 + Charisma >= 22), he could turn up undead up to his level +4, or 17 hitdice. And he doesn't have to be able to see the target, so that'll ignore the invisibility.

The Zombie template doesn't add any hitdice or turning resistance to the original creature, and it looks like that dragon's either Large or Huge. It used to be a silver dragon, so looking on the silver dragon age chart for their sizes and hit dice... It ranges from Juvenile as the weakest Large (16 hitdice) to Very Old as the most powerful Huge (31 hitdice). Even the other Large category, Young Adult, has 19 hitdice, so it's out of Durkon's range.

So, unless that's a Juvenile silver dragon zombie, or Durkon's got some fancy turn-enhancing tricks up his armored sleeve, turning's got no chance.

Best get to fightin', Order!


Some spoilers on No Cure for the Paladin Blues below:

From No Cure bonus strips we learn that it is an Ancient Silver Dragon, which is, I expect, Colossal (edit: Gargantuan -see Thread Xykon wins for stats.

[Kesnit]

I really shouldn't read these at work. It was all I could do not to cheer or laugh out loud.

As soon as :haley: said "It's a shell game," I knew where The Giant was going with it. (I'm an amature magician.) It was priceless!

My only issue is that Hinjo, Roy, and Haley have to ask if Sangwaan sees anything. She just said "Oh...Oh my." Shouldn't that be an indication that she DOES see something?


:haley: It's frustrating how Lawful you people are!

:haley: I know everyone got in the habit of ignoring the gibberish that was coming out of my mouth...

:roy: No, but I trust her gut. Aww... How sweet... :smallsmile:

:belkar: It's Pat.

[Eva of Banjo]

Nothing says "pwn3d" like realizing you've got a lich on an undead dragon hanging over your head.

[Fighteer]

Brilliant reveal.

I have a very bad feeling that Sangwaan is about to get 'et.

[Purple_cloack]

Yeah, Haley IS genius.
I'm thinking: three xykons. One real.wich one?
answer:No one.

I have almost forgot this undead dragon.

[sikyon]

Ok... Shouldn't the last frame be reversed left-right?

[Freelance Henchman]

Awesome.

So does Xykon notice it immediately that he is being True Sighted?

[CelestialStick]

I don't know if zombie dragons get a breath weapon, but if they do, it'll be cold as it's a silver dragon.

How do we know it's a silver dragon?


I didn't think you could make a dragon invisible as well as one's self, so I never thought of this. I guess that's why I play clerics and paladins, not rogues or wizards.

Xykon is being stupid by flying that close precisely because of the non-visible effects of flying. Attention to detail is important, which Xykon is infamous for ignoring. That's why I play a cleric or paladin.

Why would you think that one couldn't cast an invisibility spell on a dragon?

[Sethis]

So, yeah, if Rich has read the Draconomicon, and this is a Zombie Dragon using the template from the same, it keeps it's breath weapon, although ti would do half damage, and since its a silver dragon it also has a PARALYZING cone breath weapon.

And, y'know, a ton of HD...

Also, SIlver Dragon: right Here, 195. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html)

[Vargtass]

How do we know it's a silver dragon?

From bonus strips in No Cure for the Paladin Blues we know for a fact.
It can also be guessed because it is pale and inhabited a dungeon with only Good creatures.

:elan: Dragons: Color-coded for your convenience!

[morbiczer]

Okay, I checked the Draconimicon (a D&D sourcebook about dragons). It has a special "Zombie Dragon" template.

Zombie Dragons keep all their exceptional special attacks, except those which have a DC based on Charisma. So the zombie dragon should still have it's Spell Resistance, but not it's Frightful Presence.

Zombie Dragons loose all supernatural and spell-like special attacks, with the exception of any breath weapon it had, but it deals only half it's original damage. The DC of this breath weapon is based on Cha, not Con, since undeads have no Con score. This DC will usually be lower, than the original DC, since zombie dragons get a -6 penalty to their Charisma. Breath weapons that do no damage (like a silver dragon's paralyzing gas) aren't changed (but their DC is still affected).

So the Zombie Dragon has a breath weapon, but it's weaker than that of the original dragon.

The zombie dragon can be turned like every other undead, but it will have lots of HD, so turning it won't be easy.

[beholder]

i loved this comic. not funny, just increased my love for zykon.
carry on

[RMS Oceanic]

How do we know it's a silver dragon?

We can see it dead here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html), in the tower packed with good-aligned monsters. Since the five good dragons are silver, gold, copper, bronze and brass, only silver could match the dragon's grey colour.

[Elcaz]

Giant, you're a freaking genius. The attention to detail in this one was great, from the first time we see the smallest and hardest to see 'woosh', their clothes, capes and accessories were moving, revealing from several panels before they notice that there is a wind.

Haley's con knowledge was brilliantly played and it all made perfect sense. You're quite the storyteller. Congrats on an excellent strip.

[CelestialStick]

Ok, I accept that it's a silver dragon. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Assassinfox]

HAHAHAHAHA! That was so worth the wait.

[S.ilver]

Crafty Giant. Very crafty. Also good to see Haley utilizing her intellect more often too.

Hmm... I wonder if the Giant is referencing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Thief_%282005_TV_series%29) with the title. Or is the cigar just a cigar here?

[battleburn]

Well, I have seen it predicted in the past days in the threads, but I just didn't believe it. I thought the third was the real Xykon. Oh well...
I liked it, but didn't get Belkar's "Pat" joke (,I read it in a previous post now).
Xykon just came flying in because the flapping of the wings got louder and louder. My bet is that Xykon will not fight here, but fly straight on. He can even take the dragon with him into the throne room. Belkar and Miko fell inside through some large windows during the trial. Xycon can make use of that too. Or he will set the dragon loose on the defences from behind when he is inside. Either way. Xykon FTW, cause I doubt Anyone will be able to stop Xykon from getting there.

[Godehart]

WAHAHA! Go Xykon!

[Brettoe]

Hooray for the slightly Undead dragon!
And I guess :haley: rolled a 20 on her knowledge(con) check
Good job on her part

[Brettoe]

Hmm... I wonder if the Giant is referencing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Thief_%282005_TV_series%29) with the title. Or is the cigar just a cigar here?

He might have been.....yet again foiled by wikipedia!








that's the second time!

[TheAnimal]

Also, SIlver Dragon: right Here, 195. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html)
Oh man, I totally failed my Spot check with the text of the book in the first panel of #196 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)!
*slaps forehead*

[Pvednes]

Whoa!

Now that's a filling serving of roll initiative right there.

[BlythraB]

SANZZYTASTIC! MAGICAL! I LOVE IT!!!!!
(yes, I have some really weird vernacular. I know. Sorry.)

[CelestialStick]

Oh man, I totally failed my Spot check with the text of the book in the first panel of #196 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)!
*slaps forehead*

I guess I'm failing my Spot check too. What about the text? :smallconfused:

[Calemyr]

Heh. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2202968&postcount=113)

Double or nothing time. I predict Xykon will not engage the Order. Neither he nor his mount are in any particular danger of being turned, one being a lich with turn resistance and the other being ancient and thus of insanely high hit die. They can't catch up with them - V's the only one who can fly and she's not there. And if they chase after him, the Order will effectively be gift wrapping the fight for Redcloak. In short, even if he does realize he's been spotted (not certain by any means), there's no call for X to do anything but extend a single bony digit and fly off.

[TheAnimal]

I guess I'm failing my Spot check too. What about the text? :smallconfused:
"The new guy seems interested, but I think he just wants to get into her magical door, if you know what I mean. Hee hee!"
:smallbiggrin:

[fwiffo]

Can't reply in details now (those darn employers expect me to work when I am at work!!), but I think we basically disagree on the OOTS view of Xykon's behavior. They only had one major interaction, and they see the personality of Xykon that he doesn't pay attention to details and doesn't make elaborate plans. They have no reason to suspect major trickery out of them. And, of course, paladins are straight arrows, not really well versed in the ways of deceptions (which is why title of this one is "it takes a thief").


It may be the first rule, but it's not the only way to go. Many cons rely on tricking the mark into overconfidence that he knows what the con is and has beaten it, only to find out that the con was never what he thought it was.

Sure, that works, when the mark is likely to suspect that you are running a con and you want him to think he outsmarted you. But, IMO, neither paladins nor OOTS would be likely to suspect that anything is unusual, if it was not for triple Xykons. Especially not paladins, which is what Xykon thinks he is facing (does he even know OOTS is there? Does he even remember OOTS?).

Oh, and to briefly touch on the other point, sure, fake Xykon will not last long when attacked - which is why you protect him as you would real Xykon. That is a huge 30000 hobgoblin army out there, and they can protect fake Xykon for a long, long time, especially since they are attackers. Defenders have to sit in the city and try to wear down the attack using city fortifications, so fake Xykon would've been safe for a while.

[Wolf53226]

Actually, I assume it is based on the old adage "it take a thief to catch a thief" which is presumably where the show got it's name from as well. It means that it takes someone of a like mind to understand and thus be able to predict the movements/actions of a given person. Thus a thief could, theoretically, be the best at predicting what another thief would do, or in this instance it is more of a con artist predicting what another con artist would do.

BTW, loved the SNL reference with "It's Pat".

[Gitman00]

Well played! Before the latest installment, I was torn between "The real Xykon's with Redcloak" and "All three are fakes".

Gabriel Caine (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000249/): Do you know the difference between a hustler and a good con-man?
Fitz (http://imdb.com/name/nm0001624/): No.
Gabriel Caine (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000249/): A hustler has to get out of town as quick as he can, but a good con-man - he doesn't have to leave until he wants to.

[before the 10th fight]
John Gillon (http://imdb.com/name/nm0001136/): Never try and hustle a hustler, Mr. Cain!
[after the 10th fight]
Gabriel Caine (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000249/): Actually, I believe it goes: Never con a con-man, especially one who's better than you are.
John Gillon (http://imdb.com/name/nm0001136/): [defeated] You beat me fair and square.


-Diggstown (http://imdb.com/title/tt0104107/)

[Solmage]

So Funny! :) But.. eeeeeep! Roasted OOTS...

[Hinton]

Well played! Before the latest installment, I was torn between "The real Xykon's with Redcloak" and "All three are fakes".



-Diggstown (http://imdb.com/title/tt0104107/)

Great, great movie. I have it on DVD and watch it at least once a month.

[Snake-Aes]

Oops. It takes a thief yay

[Glorfindel]

Can anybody explain to me why Xykon is heading for the throne room?
In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html he states that it will take weeks to complete the ritual, so he will have to beat the entire Azure city army anyway.

[MrBean13]

That was like the best comic EVER. I had a laugh on the last two panels when Hinjo and Haley asked whether she sees something and she is like "OMG!". And how the idea came of suspecting Xykon above them. Brilliant. And Haley knowing all of the dirty games of the con-men. That just fits her. And I also would like to know whether or not one recognises that he is being "true-sighted".

[Zephra]

nice!! go haley!!
wow!
durn.

[CelestialStick]

"The new guy seems interested, but I think he just wants to get into her magical door, if you know what I mean. Hee hee!"
:smallbiggrin:

Well I read that, after you posted it and both times I read through all the strips, but what does it have to do with the current strip? Or did you just read it after someone posted a link to the previous strip, and notice the text for the first time?

[boolean]

I think you have to be breathing to get a breath weapon.

Not really. *points at iron golem*

[Laloni]

First off, let me say that I *loved* this comic!

But has anyone else noticed that Sangwaan is not on the correct side of the wall in the next to last panel? When I look at it, and then the last panel, it seems to be backwards to me...Anyone else see this?

[Matherdon]

Haha Genious!
I too think the dragon can't be turned. The Invis might be dispelled, but Xykon has Protection from arrows, and the dragon insane AC, so arrows won't take'em down until they reach the throne room.

So the Lich gets past them, then what? We gotta w8 and c :-)

[CelestialStick]

First off, let me say that I *loved* this comic!

But has anyone else noticed that Sangwaan is not on the correct side of the wall in the next to last panel? When I look at it, and then the last panel, it seems to be backwards to me...Anyone else see this?

Not until you pointed it out. Actually I don't think she's so much on the wrong side of the wall as on the wrong side of OOTS. Looking from that side of the wall they should be on her other side based on how they're standing in the previous panel which looks from the other side of the wall.

[mdvk1012]

Great comic and well worth the wait.

I like many forgot about the zombie dragon. Given that :xykon: is flying directly to the tower, he can use the dragon to destroy most of the paladin within. The breath weapon, even at half-damage will do considerable amount to the paladins within the confine space of the tower. :xykon: can then finish off the survivors and secure the door.

[SPoD]

Can't reply in details now (those darn employers expect me to work when I am at work!!), but I think we basically disagree on the OOTS view of Xykon's behavior. They only had one major interaction, and they see the personality of Xykon that he doesn't pay attention to details and doesn't make elaborate plans.

I think you're confusing what we, the readers, know with what the OOTS experienced. We know that Xykon ignores the details, the OOTS doesn't. All they know is that he has a bad memory about Roy's father--that's not the same thing as "unwilling to use trickery." In fact, he has already used trickery against them, by getting the goblin teenager to bring an OOTS member to him to open the gate for him. He also tried to use reverse psychology on the OOTS to get one of them to touch the gate (and open it).


They have no reason to suspect major trickery out of them.

He's still a Chaotic Evil lich, and as you pointed out, they've only interacted once with him. How is that brief interaction enough for them to utterly rule out any form of deception?

Are you actually saying that when you meet someone for the first time, if they don't lie to you in those first ten minutes, you assume they are incabable of lying? Especially if they are literally pure evil in an objective, provable way? If you were captured by a serial killer, escaped, and you later ran into him again a year later, would you say, "Well, he is a serial killer who tried to murder me and almost certainly evil, but he didn't lie to me during our previous half-hour acquaintance, so I will take every word he says as being honest and forthright!"


And, of course, paladins are straight arrows, not really well versed in the ways of deceptions (which is why title of this one is "it takes a thief").

So all paladins everywhere always assume that the forces of Evil are on the up-and-up in your campaigns? Or do they react with caution when dealing with Evil, knowing that lies and treachery are part and parcel of Evil's MO?

Remember that Redcloak didn't know the OOTS was there, and therefore had no reason to believe the paladins had ANY prior knowledge of Xykon AT ALL. In absence of all knowledge, it's unreasonable to think that Redcloak would expect the paladins to assume Xykon is not going to engage in trickery. Paladins fight evil undead creatures all the time, and they don't know Xykon from Adam.

At least, until Roy tells them about him...and tells them how he tricked them several times in the space of a few strips.


Sure, that works, when the mark is likely to suspect that you are running a con and you want him to think he outsmarted you. But, IMO, neither paladins nor OOTS would be likely to suspect that anything is unusual, if it was not for triple Xykons. Especially not paladins, which is what Xykon thinks he is facing (does he even know OOTS is there? Does he even remember OOTS?).

And I disagree. I maintain that ordinary prudence and common sense would lead the paladins to believe that their evil enemy would have some sort of tactics or strategy, probably one based on trickery (most military strategies are). And that Redcloak brilliantly fed into their expectations with a feint that they would never have uncovered if it weren't for the rogue.


Oh, and to briefly touch on the other point, sure, fake Xykon will not last long when attacked - which is why you protect him as you would real Xykon. That is a huge 30000 hobgoblin army out there, and they can protect fake Xykon for a long, long time, especially since they are attackers. Defenders have to sit in the city and try to wear down the attack using city fortifications, so fake Xykon would've been safe for a while.

Defenders don't have to do any such thing. Flying spells, teleportation, incorporeality, invisibility, long range spells, etc., can all hit an enemy commander while there are still thousands of grunts between him and his attacker. Redcloak's plan took the reality of the D&D battlefield into account, where high-level characters can bend the rules as needed. Plus, when high-level PCs are so much more powerful than the grunts, they can just wade through. This isn't real-world warfare, this is D&D combat.

Besides, using 1 HD hobgoblins to protect Xykon--an epic-level spellcaster--would send up the red flags too. Xykon is virtually immune to every attack on that battlefield except for 1 or 2; hiding him in the back would be just as suspicious, and probably less effective.

All of which ignores the main problem with this scenario: A Xykon standing in the back and not casting spells is not a threat. The PCs would have to be stupid to go after that decoy, they should stand there and let him come to them. They needed to go after the decoys because if they didn't, innocent Azurites would die fighting Xykon, and soon. The decoy needed to press the attack in order to be a threat, so that the PCs couldn't ignore it. It used their own morality against them, very clever.

Want proof? In this very strip, Roy says he's going to ignore the Xykon in the back! Panel one. So obviously, keeping Xykon in the back and protected would heve resulted in the PCs staying at their posts and just slaughtering hobgoblins left and right. Redcloak predicted this, and sent the decoys in to provoke a reaction. Which again, he almost got, were it not for Haley being able to see the bluff behind the bluff.

[Imgran]

They should trust O-Chul to mount a resistence to Xykon and play Redcloak at his own game.

Take the bait, sacrifice the Paladins at the tower on the assumption that even Xykon would take some time to finish off 100 Paladins, and to beat REDCLOAK up.

And then smash Xykon's phylacterie, which Redcloak is carrying.

You see, Xykon's appearance is just THE SECOND LEVEL of the shell game.

He's attacking now because his body is EXPENDABLE.

If killed he will cause a lot of damage and then REGENERATE. If he succeeds he pretty much destroys AC's army from within. It's win-win for the war effort fr Xykon to go charging right in right now. Worst case scenario is that he loses his body but does a ton of damage.

The way to beat the con is to delay Xykon as much as possible and smash that amulet. Otherwise you're just falling for a much more effective decoy and leaving the army to the hobgoblins.

[Darkxarth]

:furious: Grr... mumble... stupid "All Xykons are fake" people... grumble... I hate being wrong... friggumfraggum...

Well, it was a great comic Rich, even if it did mean I was wrong. I am still looking forward to learning more about the decoys, though. Why is that one on the horse so pumped and why is the one with the hobgoblins so wimpy?

Anyway, I wonder what Xykon is going to do now. My guess, is that he doesn't know he's been spotted, but he'll figure it out once OotS starts trying to attack him. However, I'm figuring that he'll ignore them and head on into the throne room. Then, will the Order
1. take off after him, leaving V behind?
2. split up, sending Roy, Durkon, and Haley after Xykon while Elan & Belkar stay behind to help Hinjo and/or Vaarsuvius?
3. Go get V and then chase Xykon?
4. Stay behind altogether and help Hinjo protect the city, then follow Xykon after the battle is pretty well wrapped up?

Only time will tell if it is one of these or something else. So, stayed tuned for the next episode!

Same Stick time!
Same Stick channel!

[Mad Scientist]

Do you see anything? LOL

[Jevanyn]

Note to Haley: Nice. Call.

Imgran: not to nitpick, but you really ought to put your predictions behind a <spoiler> shield.

[Amotis]

Welllllllll ****...

[SPoD]

And then smash Xykon's phylacterie, which Redcloak is carrying.

The OOTS don't know that Redcloak carries the phylactery. They don't even know who Redcloak is, Roy refers to him as "some goblin with a red cloak". They don't know he's the #2 guy.

Not to mention, smashing a phylactery does not destroy a lich if the lich is still intact! It ONLY destroys a lich that has had its body destroyed. Read the description of the phylactery carefully, its sole purpose is to allow regeneration once the body is destroyed. If the phylactery is smashed while Xykon is still "alive", Xykon makes another one.

[Greebo]

If the phylactery is smashed while Xykon is still "alive", Xykon makes another one.

Only if he has time... :)

[the_tick_rules]

boy nw haley is showing off. i guess everyone is going to have their moment in this siege huh. nice work on the it's pat giant.

[Nupo]

Many (including myself) thought all three were fake, but I think my son (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=19052) is the only one who predicted Xykon was invisible.


I think all 3 Xykons are fake, and the real one is invisible.

[PerryTatchett]

Well, thats it. I'm gonna look through all the other comics to see if whats his face is wearing any of those three necklaces in previous comics. See you again when I'm done.

[fehler]

Ya'll missing the next possibility: The fourth Xykon is a fake, too. Presented with an obvious ruse, then the conclusion, is too easy.

Besides, the scale of that zombie dragon doesn't match the scale of the previously shown one. Too small. Multiple zombie dragons?

Heh. Scale. Dragon. Get it?

[the_tick_rules]

i doubt this xykon is fake. he'd exhuast his entire spell arsenal on this many fakes and invisiblity spells.

[Zenthar]

Xykon knows he's detected. Obviously he wants it too. He's not gonna flee, nor is he going to be defeated at the walls. The three decoys serve a greater purpose.. You'll see! You'll all see!!!

Mwahahahhaahaa

[Zenthar]

Oww and, the fourth Xykon isn't a fake.

[Pantler]

That was so friggin' great! Still, it hurts that I had to go to the college before it was up. The wind art effect, Xykon's Reverse Psychology skill, zombie dragon - so many kinds of awesome! :biggrin:

[Varachan]

Xykon, however, forgot *his* copy of D&D Spellcaster Tactics 101.

He should have held action to counterspell while approaching the walls, since he's not using his actions for anything else. It's obvious that she's a diviner from the blindfold and the robes.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, they've got the same breath weapons as the living dragon, so this one will be Cold. From memory, it's weaker than normal - I think half the damage is half what it was when alive.
The SRD is on line. If you can read the comic you can LOOK UP the rule.

"Special Attacks: A zombie retains none of the base creature’s special attacks."

Breath weapons are a special attack. Now, Dragonomicon offers an alternate rule, but that isn't core and it isn't SRD, so Rich may or may not be using it. Claiming that the Dragon has such an attack is premature at the least.

What's more, if it does SO WHAT! Zombies get only a partial action each round. Flying is a move action. The Zombie dragon can't fly and breath at the same time. Xylon OTOH can do more damage, probably at a higher DC than the dragon can without serious trouble.

[Roderick_BR]

Wow, he is right in front of them. Does that means Xykon as been nonchalantly flying over their head since the start of the fight? Anyway, the OOTS need a dispel magic fast.

I think the wind is coming from the dragon's winds flapping, so he's been there since the beginning of the 2nd part of the strip. Maybe for a few minutes.

[Krytha]

= TEHOMGZOMG!!!

Man, Elan couldn't think his way out of a wet paper bag.

[The Wanderer]

Whoo! That comic was made up of 100% awesomeness! And to boot, two of my theories got proven right. (That Xykon was either in the back with Redcloak or was none of the 3, and that the battle would be a deception and Xykon would try to go straight to the Keep and get ahold of the Sapphire Gate). Maybe I should start keeping track of all these correct predictions...

[Arachnophile]

Genius! oh that last frame made my heart smile. "Oh my." roflmao

[Hushdawg]

Of course if you wanted to beat Xykon at his own shell game there's an easy answer -- if the gang can figure it out.

Take down Redcloak.

Smash the phylacterie

You know; nobody inside the OOTS has talked about Philacteries this whole time. I wonder if they have the player knowledge to understand that aspect of Litchlore?

Maybe Elan would since he was the bard of a paladin. But even so, what would be the chance of them knowing that Redcloak's holy symbol WAS the philactery? Every DM i've ever encountered to run a litch had hidden the philactery so far away from the litch's own lair that it was rediculous. One was clever enough to make it into a gem set into the king's crown. Yeah, the DM was a sonofabitch for that. :D

[TigerHunter]

Ya'll missing the next possibility: The fourth Xykon is a fake, too. Presented with an obvious ruse, then the conclusion, is too easy.

Besides, the scale of that zombie dragon doesn't match the scale of the previously shown one. Too small. Multiple zombie dragons?
Hrm. I am in love with the idea of a bluff within a bluff within a bluff, but I doubt it.

Heh. Scale. Dragon. Get it?
I laughed harder at this than at the comic. :smallsmile:

[Wiione]

Holy Boop.

[Zenthar]

Whoo! That comic was made up of 100% awesomeness! And to boot, two of my theories got proven right. (That Xykon was either in the back with Redcloak or was none of the 3, and that the battle would be a deception and Xykon would try to go straight to the Keep and get ahold of the Sapphire Gate). Maybe I should start keeping track of all these correct predictions...

Well, first off.. I could say that ahhh Xykon is either the number one, two, or three, none of them, flies on a zombie dragon, or doesn't. And of course would be some of those, that doesn't make it right :p You're not really allowed but one prediction, else that's lame!

Second! How do you know he's trying to go to the keep and get hold of the Sapphire Gate?

[Hushdawg]

Haha Genious!
I too think the dragon can't be turned. The Invis might be dispelled, but Xykon has Protection from arrows, and the dragon insane AC, so arrows won't take'em down until they reach the throne room.


I dunno, Durkon's a pretty high level Cleric; he might be able to turn the Zombified Dragon [TM]
As for arrows, someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't they only do half damage on undead? That's a LOT of arrows to take down a dragon.

[MaxKaladin]

We don't actually know it's a zombie dragon, do we? We know it's undead but I can't remember if it's been stated that it's a zombie.

Anyway, my prediction:
Xykon isn't headed for the throne room. The rituals take weeks to do and he's not really going to gain anything by executing some plan to get himself into the throne room during the battle. Haley just thinks he is because she doesn't know how long the rituals take. Xykon is looking for the people directing the defense so he can wipe them out -- and he's found them. He's now in position to unleash some nasty area of effect spells on the leaders and their staff. Of course, he didn't know the OotS (minus Vaarsuvius) was there so he may have bitten off more than he can chew.

It may seem a bit out of character for Xykon to go himself instead of letting his minions do it, but he does want to take the city so he can do his rituals on the gate without being disturbed by some annoying paladin or adventurer every five minutes and taking out the leaders will make that more likely to happen. Besides, he enjoys the suffering of others and watching people scream and writhe in agony after a sneak attack from dragonback seems right up his alley.

[Martok]

Brilliant strip, Giant! I loved the "It's Pat" reference, but I especially enjoyed getting to see Haley use that roguish brain of hers to good effect. As someone else said, it's good to be reminded why she's Roy's second-in-command. :smallsmile:

[The Wanderer]

Well, first off.. I could say that ahhh Xykon is either the number one, two, or three, none of them, flies on a zombie dragon, or doesn't. And of course would be some of those, that doesn't make it right :p You're not really allowed but one prediction, else that's lame!

Oh sure, spoil my fun why don't you? :smalltongue: :smallwink:


Second! How do you know he's trying to go to the keep and get hold of the Sapphire Gate?

Um, because that's the point of this entire battle? :smallwink:

[Zenthar]

Everyone seems to forget that Xykon was there before they realized he is there.. He heard what they talked, and saw who are there. If he didn't want to face the OotS he could have gone away.

[Zenthar]

Oh sure, spoil my fun why don't you? :smalltongue: :smallwink:



Um, because that's the point of this entire battle? :smallwink:


Might be point of the entire battle - but how do you know he's headed there straight? As said before, the rituals take weeks - So he can't go there straight, unless he has some way to "lock" the doors.

[Hushdawg]

"it's Pat" was such awesomeness. I've been humming the "It's Pat" theme during V monologues for a while now (inserting "V" in place of "Pat" in my head) so this was just perfect for me! :D

I'm thinking they should get a message to Vaarsuvius to have one of the supa-sized paladins spear the dragon; that should be enough HP damage to take it down.
Then falls Xyklon...
What does it take to get to the bony center of a Xyklon drop?

[Lostboy]

Romnipotent, I'm so glad you posted this! When I read the strip and saw Xykon revealed on his zomibe dragon I immediately remembered that someone had predicted this very thing, but I couldn't remember who. I was just going to post that whomever had predicted it was correct, but then I saw your post, showing that you had predicted it, so I can say, kudos to you! You were dead right! Well done! :smallsmile: You are indeed rominpotent, or at least romniscient. :smallwink:

Actually, if you check the thread for strip #426, you'll see I was the first one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2195734&postcount=97) to predict that Xykon would be sneaking in on the zombie dragon while the OotS was distracted by the 3 fake Xykons on the battlefield. :) But Romnipotent probably just didn't read that thread, so he came to the same conclusion I did, on his own, probably. Still, I'm pretty proud to have been the first to think of it. :)

[Hushdawg]

We don't actually know it's a zombie dragon, do we? We know it's undead but I can't remember if it's been stated that it's a zombie.


It's in one of the bonus strips from book 2 where the Silver Dragon is actually killed and then in a later strip Xyklon brings him back to life; therefore zombie.

If it were any form of intelligent undead then he would be a more powerful force than Xyklon himself (being a dragon, the only form I can think of would be a dracolitch).

[brian c]

Well worth the wait. Well done, Haley!

I guess we can add invisibility to Xykon's spell list...

Probably greater invisibility or something... I don't have a great knowledge of the spells (usually play melee types) but making Xykon and the dragon-zombie invisible would require either some mass invisibility spell or multiple castings, right?



Also: Belkar calling V "It's Pat". Wonderful. Didn't even catch that at first but now it's one of my favorite OOTS moments.

[Hushdawg]

Second! How do you know he's trying to go to the keep and get hold of the Sapphire Gate?


Uhhh.. because that's the reason he went there!!!!

See strips 415, 416 and of course 300.

[The Wanderer]

Might be point of the entire battle - but how do you know he's headed there straight? As said before, the rituals take weeks - So he can't go there straight, unless he has some way to "lock" the doors.

And everyone trying to reject the idea of him going straight for the Gate is overlooking the strategic value of taking the only place all of the Azure City armies have to run should the outer walls fall, (and said outer walls are already sporting two massive holes and one temporarily blocked massive hole), thus leaving those defenders caught between a hammer, (hobgoblin/undead army), and an anvil. (Xykon).

If Xykon holds the gate, then a significant portion of the Azure City defenders will have to leave the walls to attempt to stop him from either holding their own castle against them or taking the sapphire and running, (a possibility that has left open, since it's not said that the Sapphire can't be moved, only that it's something that should be done with extreme care), thus leaving the walls even more likely to be overrun.

[brian c]

I dunno, Durkon's a pretty high level Cleric; he might be able to turn the Zombified Dragon [TM]
As for arrows, someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't they only do half damage on undead? That's a LOT of arrows to take down a dragon.

This is discussed in one of the other threads in this forum, but if the dragon is just a silver dragon (as per Paladin Blues) with the zombie template added (which isn't strictly legal by RAW but lets overlook that) then it would be a 68HD undead. Kinda difficult to turn; Durkon would have better luck turning Xykon.

[Dentarg]

Whoa... Completely unexpected!

I should have remembered about the dragon, I completely forgot he had that thing!

- DM Ajantis

[Dausuul]

"it's Pat" was such awesomeness. I've been humming the "It's Pat" theme during V monologues for a while now (inserting "V" in place of "Pat" in my head) so this was just perfect for me! :D

I'm thinking they should get a message to Vaarsuvius to have one of the supa-sized paladins spear the dragon; that should be enough HP damage to take it down.

Not bloody likely. Those fellows may be buffed to hell and all, but they're still only 5th level and that dragon has easily over 100 hit points. I suppose one of them could do that much damage on a crit... except undead are immune to crits.

Roy can do way more damage than any of those guys (though all of them together might be another matter). Of course, none of this helps if the dragon just flies up forty feet or so.

Enough archers could take it down, but you'd need a whole lot of archers. It's got DR 5/slashing and its AC is way high. A typical archer does maybe 1d8+1 damage, so his average damage on a hit is 1.25 after DR, and he needs a natural 20 to hit, so the dragon takes 6.25 damage a round per 100 archers firing at it. Not exactly stellar damage output. And that's assuming Xykon doesn't do something like throw up a wall of force or solid fog between him and the main archer contingent.

[Zenthar]

And everyone trying to reject the idea of him going straight for the Gate is overlooking the strategic value of taking the only place all of the Azure City armies have to run should the outer walls fall, (and said outer walls are already sporting two massive holes and one temporarily blocked massive hole), thus leaving those defenders caught between a hammer, (hobgoblin/undead army), and an anvil. (Xykon).

If Xykon holds the gate, then a significant portion of the Azure City defenders will have to leave the walls to attempt to stop him from either holding their own castle against them or taking the sapphire and running, (a possibility that has left open, since it's not said that the Sapphire can't be moved, only that it's something that should be done with extreme care), thus leaving the walls even more likely to be overrun.

You can move the sapphire.. Can you move the gate? You can't. And they have MUCH troops inside the walls.. Like the paladins at the castle..
Xykon would have to hold against about 100 paladins and OotS.

[Zenthar]

"it's Pat" was such awesomeness. I've been humming the "It's Pat" theme during V monologues for a while now (inserting "V" in place of "Pat" in my head) so this was just perfect for me! :D

I'm thinking they should get a message to Vaarsuvius to have one of the supa-sized paladins spear the dragon; that should be enough HP damage to take it down.
Then falls Xyklon...
What does it take to get to the bony center of a Xyklon drop?

They can't take the Dragon down. Few 5th level enlarged soldiers versus a ~20th level lich wizard and a Ancient silver zombie dragon? :smallconfused:

[Zenthar]

Not bloody likely. Those fellows may be buffed to hell and all, but they're still only 5th level and that dragon has easily over 100 hit points. I suppose one of them could do that much damage on a crit... except undead are immune to crits.

Roy can do way more damage than any of those guys (though all of them together might be another matter). Of course, none of this helps if the dragon just flies up forty feet or so.

Enough archers could take it down, but you'd need a whole lot of archers. It's got DR 5/slashing and its AC is way high. A typical archer does maybe 1d8+1 damage, so his average damage on a hit is 1.25 after DR, and he needs a natural 20 to hit, so the dragon takes 6.25 damage a round per 100 archers firing at it. Not exactly stellar damage output. And that's assuming Xykon doesn't do something like throw up a wall of force or solid fog between him and the main archer contingent.

Ahh, ninjaed :P And the ancient zombie dragon has 450 hit points.

[Haruki-kun]

yay, Haley rockz. Oh, and.............they're screwed...........

[Dausuul]

Ahh, ninjaed :P And the ancient zombie dragon has 450 hit points.

I was being conservative, since technically animate dead is limited to 20 Hit Dice per creature. Not that Xykon has shown much regard for the Hit Die limitations on his undead so far...

[The Wanderer]

You can move the sapphire.. Can you move the gate? You can't. And they have MUCH troops inside the walls.. Like the paladins at the castle..
Xykon would have to hold against about 100 paladins and OotS.

Gate is inside the Sapphire. Sapphire has obviously been moved before, since we've seen it being handed over in flashbacks and also since we know it wasn't always part of the AC throne. So obviously, it can be moved.

As for Xykon holding against 100 paladins that would probably give Xykon about as much pause as the thought of holding against 100 ants would give an elephant. (Especially since he absolutely toyed with Azure City's single most powerful paladin, who utterly wiped the floor with its second most powerful paladin). OotS weren't in the original plan, since Redcloak didn't know they were there until after the assault had already been launched and the plan in motion. (And the plan was Redcloak's, afterall). However, we've also seen how much Xykon concerns himself with Roy and the Order. He doesn't believe they're a threat to him in the slightest degree.

[commanderkoo]

Watch out for vorpal attacks Roy! Xykon's back for his crown hehehe.

[Alysar]

Second page, fourth panel.

:haley: "... probably making a beeline for the throne room"

How does Haley know that Xykon knows that the gate is in the throne room?

[Dragor]

OH NOES!!!!1!1!!!1!!!!

Things are going to get pretty hot, pretty fast. Great going, Giant- no problem about the lateness, just makes the strip even better :smallbiggrin:

[Zenthar]

About the dragon.. We saw how a black dragon, that was only a young adult, wiped the floor with OotS. They only won because of V.. So what will an ancient zombie silver dragon do?

[Hushdawg]

Roy can do way more damage than any of those guys (though all of them together might be another matter). Of course, none of this helps if the dragon just flies up forty feet or so.



DUDE!!! TOTALLY forgot about the green glowy sword goodness! That's supposed to be seriously damaging to undead (according to the swordsmith).

I realize the footsoldiers are only level 5 but at thier size they would have the giant-sized weapons to deal damage to the dragon rather than the normal medium sized weapons. I think it might make a slight difference.

[Vargtass]

Second page, fourth panel.

:haley: "... probably making a beeline for the throne room"

How does Haley know that Xykon knows that the gate is in the throne room?

She doesn't know, she assumes... thus the "Probably..."

[Hushdawg]

About the dragon.. We saw how a black dragon, that was only a young adult, wiped the floor with OotS. They only won because of V.. So what will an ancient zombie silver dragon do?

They've leveled up since then... that was a loong time ago. :D

[Hushdawg]

She doesn't know, she assumes... thus the "Probably..."

That and we can safely assume that everyone in OOTS has been caught up to speed in the typical conversations that go on before each gaming session.

[Terraxos]

Second page, fourth panel.

:haley: "... probably making a beeline for the throne room"

How does Haley know that Xykon knows that the gate is in the throne room?
Or, indeed: how does Haley know that the gate is in the throne room, let alone how does she know that Xykon knows? She wasn't there when Roy and Belkar were told about it. Still, it makes sense that Roy would have informed the rest of the team at some point - he's not one to keep secrets from them, and it's only fair that they should know exactly what they're supposed to be defending.

As for 'how does Haley know Xykon knows': I guess she (or someone else in the OOTS) realised that he's an all-powerful Lich and has ways of figuring these things out. It doesn't take that much of a leap of logic, assuming they're aware of the 'Scrying' spell...

Oh, and: great comic, Giant. I had a feeling none of the three Xykons we saw earlier were real, but I wasn't sure about it... well, you've just confirmed my suspicions! :smallsmile:

Any bets on what happens next? I would expect Xykon to launch an immediate attack on the OOTS, but the trouble with that from a plot-point-of-view is: what with the giant zombie dragon on his side, and half the team busy fighting the goblins, I'm not exactly sure how they could win... :smalleek:

[happyturtle]

1. Invisible Xykon can't be another decoy, because he's been revealed by a True Seeing spell.

2. It's a good think the battle is at Azure City instead of my town, because it's so bloody windy today that I can barely walk against it. A whole squad of invisible zombie dragons could be out there, and I wouldn't have a clue.

3. The Order knows that Xykon has a phylactery that they need to destroy, because Roy's dad told him. They have no clue where it is. However, Hinjo and Roy decided a few strips ago that they take out Xykon now and worry about the regeneration later.

4. Roy's starmetal sword does extra damage against undead :smallamused: (doh! ninja'd on this one)

[Hushdawg]

Well, they already knew that Xykon knew about the gates and was systematically going after them; so it stood to reason that if he is attacking Azure City that he'd be going after the gate.

I keep wanting to type "Emerald City" there.. sheesh..
you know.. green = Emerald while blue=Azure... ugh..
brain not function well caffine without....

[Hushdawg]

3. The Order knows that Xykon has a phylactery that they need to destroy, because Roy's dad told him. They have no clue where it is. However, Hinjo and Roy decided a few strips ago that they take out Xykon now and worry about the regeneration later.



I do remember Hinjo and Roy agreeing to worry about regeneration later on... but I don't remember Roy's dad talking about the Philactery... gonna go look that up...

[Marller]

I hope that Sangwaan survives.

[factotum]

I quite like fehler's theory:


It explains why "Xykon" would choose to fly over a section of wall where there are clearly some high-level opponents, and furthermore, to do it at such a height they're bound to notice him. As for him not being able to be a decoy because of the True Seeing spell, that spell isn't capable of penetrating mundane disguises, and I doubt Sangwaan is going to be paying close attention to the details of the lich when there's an enormous undead dragon right on top of her! We could have a conventional skeleton with Xykon's robes and some glitter in its sockets to look like lich eyes...


OK, that's all fairly unlikely, but I've been 100% wrong about most of these things so far and I don't want to break my record!

[Ikkitosen]

It's not often I post in these threads, but I have to say that that particular comic contained 50% extra awesomeness. Instead of 100% RDA, that one will keep you going 'til lunchtime tomorrow aswell.

[Zenthar]

1 or 2 levels.

[Fus.Weapon 1337]

Yeah! I was right!

[atteSmythe]

Or, indeed: how does Haley know that the gate is in the throne room, let alone how does she know that Xykon knows? She wasn't there when Roy and Belkar were told about it. Still, it makes sense that Roy would have informed the rest of the team at some point - he's not one to keep secrets from them, and it's only fair that they should know exactly what they're supposed to be defending.

That the OotS are on the same page is exactly the point of the 'recap strips' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html) that so many people were calling 'filler' at the time.

[Hushdawg]

In strip 293 Roy's dad does indeed warn him that Xykon has a "thigimajabber" that grows him a new body. However he does not give indications to the name, location or what must be done with it.

One would surmise that Roy (who has an MBA) would know that you should destroy the "thingimajabber" BUT he still doesn't know what he's looking for.

So... I reiterate my point: OOTS has NO CLUE that they need to destroy the amulet around Redcloak's neck in order to be able to kill Xykon.

[Grungydan]

AH!!! It's such a great day for comics today!!

"It's Pat" down there... CLASSIC!

[Caractacus]

Truly awe-inspiring strip! I loved it.

What is it the Americans say...it's full of awesome and win? Yeah, that's it.:smallcool:

I expect a veeery nasty spell attack from Xykon next, and an eaten seer.

If the commentators that said that the zombie dragon doesn't have enough actions are right, just maybe it will land ON the seer and breath attack the Oots in combination with a Xykon spell attack. :smalleek:

The horror!

[Lumenadducere]

Awesome comic! Well worth the slight delay. Looking forward to the next one.

[happyturtle]

In strip 293 Roy's dad does indeed warn him that Xykon has a "thigimajabber" that grows him a new body. However he does not give indications to the name, location or what must be done with it.

One would surmise that Roy (who has an MBA) would know that you should destroy the "thingimajabber" BUT he still doesn't know what he's looking for.

So... I reiterate my point: OOTS has NO CLUE that they need to destroy the amulet around Redcloak's neck in order to be able to kill Xykon.

Nope. I guess they figure they'll go thingimajabber hunting after the battle.

(Mental note: when handing down a vengeance oath to my heirs, remember to advise them about any special abilities my nemesis might have)

[Leo_Forestclaw]

Actually I don't think they get a breath weapon at all. They lose all special attacks that they had in life, IIRC.

I don't know the specifics mechanics of Rich's world, but according to my 2nd Ed. Sourcebook "Cult of the Dragon," an undead dragon retains the breath weapon it had when it was alive.

But this being version 3.5 who knows what the rules are...:smallconfused:

[kpenguin]

About the zombie dragons, here some info from the SRD on applying the zombie template


A zombie retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.

This includes breath weapons.

Also,

Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

Our dragon has at most 20 HD. This means that Durkon will probably have some trouble turning it and no chance of destroying it through turning.


If the base creature can fly, its maneuverability rating drops to clumsy.
Xykon's mount won't be doing a lot aerial maneuvering to avoid the OotS any time soon. And no hovering, so Xykon was just there.

This of course, assumes that the dragon is by the RAW, which this being OotS is not completely certain.

[MReav]

I'm curious, is Sangwaan a cleric or a wizard?

[InfernalistGame]

More important than whether or not it has a breath weapon, I think, is whether or not Durkon can turn it.

Some mechanics geekery behind the spoiler: Assuming he's at the same level as V, Durkon's packing 13 levels of Cleric. That means, if he really aces his turn roll (d20 + Charisma >= 22), he could turn up undead up to his level +4, or 17 hitdice. And he doesn't have to be able to see the target, so that'll ignore the invisibility.

The Zombie template doesn't add any hitdice or turning resistance to the original creature, and it looks like that dragon's either Large or Huge. It used to be a silver dragon, so looking on the silver dragon age chart for their sizes and hit dice... It ranges from Juvenile as the weakest Large (16 hitdice) to Very Old as the most powerful Huge (31 hitdice). Even the other Large category, Young Adult, has 19 hitdice, so it's out of Durkon's range.

So, unless that's a Juvenile silver dragon zombie, or Durkon's got some fancy turn-enhancing tricks up his armored sleeve, turning's got no chance.

Best get to fightin', Order!

(edit) Oh, and I almost forgot to add: Great stuff, Giant! No problem about the lateness - I hope things got well taken care of!

Sir, I must debate you on two points. Now this is being posted just after reading this post, so others may have brought the points to bear, but I make them as well. First, the basic zombie template in fact doubles the HD of the creature, making a traditional zombie made from a dragon of any size quite a wall and damn hard to turn. Secondly, there is a "zombie dragon" template in Draconomicon that does indeed keep it's breath weapon. So, fair warning, don't underestimate the mount. And let's not even get into the empowering ability of the "corpse creature" template from Book of Vile Darkness, or a awaken undead spell.

EDIT: Sethis noticed this as well, I see. And Morbiczer...

EDIT AGAIN: And KPenguin...that's what Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are for. And that's just PHB magic. Trust me, you can make a fully aware, sentient, spellstitched, elementally infused, breath-weapon-maintaining, full speed rotting dragon using just official 3.0 and 3.5 materials. The question is, how much of an animation specialist are Xykon and Redcloak? A few item creation feats and some time snuggling with the Libris Mortis will do wonders for a necromantic army, especially it's massive siege undead like really big silver dragons.

[Dausuul]

Gate is inside the Sapphire. Sapphire has obviously been moved before, since we've seen it being handed over in flashbacks and also since we know it wasn't always part of the AC throne. So obviously, it can be moved.

The gate is sealed by the sapphire (see comic #411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html)), not inside it. And Xykon specifically says in comic #416 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) that it can't be moved, otherwise he and Redcloak would just sneak in and steal it.


As for Xykon holding against 100 paladins that would probably give Xykon about as much pause as the thought of holding against 100 ants would give an elephant. (Especially since he absolutely toyed with Azure City's single most powerful paladin, who utterly wiped the floor with its second most powerful paladin). OotS weren't in the original plan, since Redcloak didn't know they were there until after the assault had already been launched and the plan in motion. (And the plan was Redcloak's, afterall). However, we've also seen how much Xykon concerns himself with Roy and the Order. He doesn't believe they're a threat to him in the slightest degree.

Agreed. Xykon would probably kill most of the paladins in the initial onslaught anyway. And while the survivors try to figure out how to dislodge him, Redcloak and his horde will be overrunning the walls...

[Elurindel]

I can't see the last part of the comic, right after the blindfolded girl casts True Seeing.

[Tach13]

Giant got me on two points, thought the Xykon in back was real, and had to stop and think "Pat who?" for a minute until I realized what Belkar was saying.
Great story comic and well worth the wait.

[Vulion]

Very, very sneaky Rich. Loved the comic and I hope to god both Hinjo and Sangwaan survive this fight.

[The Wanderer]

The gate is sealed by the sapphire (see comic #411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html)), not inside it. And Xykon specifically says in comic #416 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) that it can't be moved, otherwise he and Redcloak would just sneak in and steal it.

D'oh! I missed that, and I thought I remembered a bit about the Sapphire needing to be moved very carefully, if it is to be moved at all. My memory went and failed me that time.


Agreed. Xykon would probably kill most of the paladins in the initial onslaught anyway. And while the survivors try to figure out how to dislodge him, Redcloak and his horde will be overrunning the walls...

*Nods* That's pretty much my line of thinking too. The commanders on the walls can't just assume that the guards and paladins in the throne room can hold off whatever threat that comes their way, (in this case an epic lich/sorcerer who Hinjo describes as "He doesn't engage opponents, he alters the course of an entire battle"), so they'll need to send at least some reinforcements to the castle. However every one they do will be one less warrior or cleric or paladin on the walls, and really, if the hobgoblins fight their way past the walls the battle is over.

House to house fighting in a city isn't as big an obstacle in a medieval world as it is in the modern day when you can have guys with machine guns at every window, and nowhere near as big an obstacle as getting past the outer walls. So whichever course is taken at this point by Hinjo and his generals, it's risky. Either you strip some of your men from fighting off the huge army that vastly outnumbers you and will be all but impossible to beat back once they're in your city, or you risk an epic level sorcerer tossing spells into your rear while you're trying to fight off the enemy in front of you.

[Rusty]

lol "It's Pat". Good times. :]

[divine]

bad-freakin-ass.

that's all.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Ah, and it all makes so much sense now. I was wondering where that dragon was.

I'm oddly comforted, and simultaneously apprehensive. Cant' wait for Wednesday.

[the_tick_rules]

I'm sure this zombie dragon will follow whatever the giant wants it to. I think the dragon excceded the HD limit to zombify something anyways so the standards rules seem out the window.

Xykon has to have some plan to get around the paladins. Xykon is powerful indeed. But a batallion of paladins surrounding him and smiting evil repeatedly and multiple turn checks would be a severe problem. High level sorcerers thrive by avoiding meele. So he has to have some idea rather than a frontal assault.

[Gallanoth]

Yee! Giant invisible flying zombie dragons for the win!
Dang and here I thought he rode a dracolich:smallfrown:

[the_tick_rules]

a dracolich. a dracolich would kill xykon first.

[skinkatlarge]

For everyone talking about Xykon killing the seer next:
Greater Invisibility will only last a couple of minutes, so it's probably safe to assume Xykon used the regular Invisibility - which ends as soon as the subject attacks any creature. After all, his intention was apparently to sneak through (for whatever reason - not clear on his goal myself), not Death From Above. And if it is regular Invisibility, in the most cold-hearted logical sense, an attack on the seer, Hinjo, or anyone else would probably be good for the OOTS (if not for the attackee) - no worries about dispeling that Invisibility.

Hrmm. Actually, let me question that. He did go for the part of the wall with the leader and highest level characters (though how he would recognize them as such, especially Hinjo, I don't know - maybe Teevo was working overtime, off-screen). He can't do what he needs to do with the Gate just by sneaking through; maybe he is just there for Death From Above on the leader. Still, I don't know how fast the dragon flies or how far away Xykon had to start to avoid being noticed at all (over the horizon, presumably), but Invisibility seems more likely than Greater Invisibility.

[Black_Light83]

starshine PWED THOSE NOOBS

[Shara_Littlebottom]

OMG What an awesome comic!! Really really sweet. Beautiful final panel!

[Daracaex]

I have just one thing to say about this comic:

Told you so.

[SETI_fan]

Oh that was just AWESOME! :D Invisible skeleton on a zombie dragon! That may be one of the best images I've seen in a while. Way to go, Xykon!

Great lines too.

"I know you got used to ignoring the gibberish coming out of my mouth..."
"I'm freezing my considerable assets off..."
And a reference to Pat of SNL? Good stuff.

This fight's gonna be a blast!

Seti

[shaddy_24]

That was awesome. Haley's lines, as well as the increasing winds? Brilliant! Also, to the people who complained about the con, I think that most people in that situation would assume that one of the three Xykons was real. They might not think he will do a run straight for the gate, so they assume he's going to run at the wall to do a lot of damage. They don't have a lot of time, so they won't stand around and think about it. They'll assume the con is that there are 3 Xykons and try to beat that one. That's the deception.

[Roxysteve]

My latest theory: The Order of the Stick are all Cylons & the last 237 strips are a "Pam Ewing" dream sequence taking place in the circuits of a massive computer designed by Harlan Ellison. It will turn out that Xykon is actually Robert Culp and the real OOTS are stored as digital images in the fingers of his glass hand.

I was totally sucked in by the shell game and would be down half my hit points by now as a result.

Steve.

[Kome]

I can't beleive no one noticed this yet. And I can't believe I registered just to point this out:

Hinjo's cape is blown outside the border of the comic right before the crew goes running to Sangwaan. I think it's a nice touch. Especially since it was blown behind the border the previous time. Very nice, Rich!

[Nekulor]

Well, anyone want roast paladin for dinner?

[Hushdawg]

Well, anyone want roast paladin for dinner?

~*URP!*~

Tastes of chicken, sir!

[Sebastian]

Meh. I understand where Giant went with it, but I don't think it really works. If there was one fake Xykon, nobody would be wondering where Xykon is - everyone would be making plans to head over to that target.

Now, there is some value in a creating an action that your opponent will think is your deception, which is not - it is really more of your attempt to have them think it is your deception. So, a feint of sorts. But, that relies on the opinion that your opponent will be looking for a deception, so you should give them the wrong one. And they wouldn't be. Redcloak is deceptive, but Xykon isn't; and as far as Azure City goes, Xykon is leading the assault. So, by creating a fake deception, you are giving other side information you should not be. So, you give away your game - that you are attempting a deception, when you opponent had no reason to suspect that. Redcloak should've realized this. He is a darn smart goblin, and it is not like him to make a mistake like this.

The first rule of good con is not to have your target wondering what the con is. The first rule is to make it look like it is not con at all.

Thus, meh on the strip.

But if he created a single decoy they'd just go after him, easily defeat him, because is just a decoy and they'll be "hey,this was not Xykon, where he can.... ho no, the gate", but if he create three decoys they'd go after the first one, defeat him, say "it is one of the other two" goes after the other two and only then ask "where is Xykon?" and he'd answer "I'm in your tower, killing your paladins, all your gates are belong to me." or something like it. :D
Remember that Redcloak didn't know that a sneaky rogue was defending the city kjust some goody two shoes, linear thinking paladins, if not for Haley that plot could have worked completely.

[Tolkien_Freak]

MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

'Do you see anything?'
'Oh my!' *dies*

And the undead dragon is really creepy-looking.

[Tobimaro]

I didn't think you could make a dragon invisible as well as one's self, so I never thought of this. I guess that's why I play clerics and paladins, not rogues or wizards.

Xykon is being stupid by flying that close precisely because of the non-visible effects of flying. Attention to detail is important, which Xykon is infamous for ignoring. That's why I play a cleric or paladin.

He either cast two Invisibility spells, or maybe one Invisibility Sphere. Should be able to work either way.

I never saw this coming. Great work, Giant. Haley gets to use her skills to see through Xykon's battle plan, and Belkar even gets in a good line. :smallsmile:

"Oh my." :smalleek:

[The Glitter Ninja]

I really like the very hard-to-see "whoosh" in the panel where Hinjo is saying "where's the real Xykon right now". I saw something in the background but ignored it until Belkar mentioned wind. So awesome, really great detail there.

This strip, of course, answers my question about where the undead dragon was. Heh.

[djcowell]

While this is a wonderful comic, I'm more entertained by what doesn't happen in it. With the wind coming from the wings, there's no way Belkar couldn't smell the undeath in the air. That should excite him to no end with a nearby foe that he can stab. And yet, like in the EARLY strips he can't make any spot or listen checks.
I can just imagine Xykon becoming visible in the next strip and Belkar STILL not seeing the Gargantuan zombie behind him.

Great work Giant!!!

[A_S]

:roy: Yes, I know what a shell game is, Haley.

Is that a reference to this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vY2WLMf0F_c)?

If so, this awesome comic is just a tad more awesome.

[I don't know]

the last panel could have been from a much more dramatic angle

[Sebastian]

And then smash Xykon's phylacterie, which Redcloak is carrying.


As they perfectly know... oh, wait, THEY DON'T. They didn't even know of the philactery the first time they defeat him, why do you think they now know what it is, that dertoying it would destroy Xykon (I'm not even sure that is the way it works) and even who have it?

[AyuVince]

Awesome. Haley's instinct once again saves the day. It doesn't just take a rogue, she has to be a female rogue, too.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Um, one question here. If that dragon is like a rotting corpse, wouldn't someone have noticed the stench of several tons of putrefying lizard meat being blown across them by it's wings?

Especially belkar, who &quot;sniffed out&quot; nale before anyone else did? I mean, a mouse died in a heat vent in my house one winter, and egad, did it stink! It stunk up the whole bathroom until I found it. That was a mouse who'se mass was measured in ounces, now a rotting dragon that likely weighs in at several tons...... Maybe xykon had one of those pine scented air freshners on it because he didn't like the smell either, or, I don't know, is there a 'mask smell&quot; spell in D&D?

[Mr._Blinky]

Of course, if Durkon turns the dragon, Xykon's got a problem. Otherwise, they're all screwed. Those soldiers right there are definitely about to die.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Of course, if Durkon turns the dragon, Xykon's got a problem. Otherwise, they're all screwed. Those soldiers right there are definitely about to die.

'swhat redshirts are for......

[Professor Tanhauser]

I kinda have this image of xykon finding out about roy's new sword, the hard way. As in Roy whacks zombie dragon with sword, sword's aura destroys dragon and xykon falls on his boney ass.

[Roxysteve]

And the undead dragon is really creepy-looking.

Yeah, and look at those worn joints and stress points. Wouldn't get me up on one of those things.

Steve.

[Roxysteve]

Um, one question here. If that dragon is like a rotting corpse, wouldn't someone have noticed the stench of several tons of putrefying lizard meat being blown across them by it's wings?

Especially belkar, who &quot;sniffed out&quot; nale before anyone else did? I mean, a mouse died in a heat vent in my house one winter, and egad, did it stink! It stunk up the whole bathroom until I found it. That was a mouse who'se mass was measured in ounces, now a rotting dragon that likely weighs in at several tons...... Maybe xykon had one of those pine scented air freshners on it because he didn't like the smell either, or, I don't know, is there a 'mask smell&quot; spell in D&D?

Perhaps the dragon is more mummified than rotting?

Kudos for the "egad" there. I thought I was the last person on Earth uising that expression in real life.

Steve.

[Hushdawg]

Yeah, and look at those worn joints and stress points. Wouldn't get me up on one of those things.

Steve.

Meh, no worse than the carnival rides I used to go on as a pup...

Of course, there was that one time the "scrambler" car broke loose and went skipping across the field. That was honestly...


... FUN AS HELL!!!

[happyturtle]

The zombie dragon is probably pretty smelly, but the hordes of hobgobs probably aren't terribly fragrant either.

[Freelance Henchman]

'swhat redshirts are for......

Alas, henchmen have it tough...

[5tephen]

Heeee's heeeereeee!

AtomicKitKat- you're a genius.
As are you, Giant.

[CelestialStick]

Great comic and well worth the wait.

I like many forgot about the zombie dragon. Given that :xykon: is flying directly to the tower, he can use the dragon to destroy most of the paladin within. The breath weapon, even at half-damage will do considerable amount to the paladins within the confine space of the tower. :xykon: can then finish off the survivors and secure the door.

The Paladin Within sounds like a great title for a D&D pop-psychology book. "Does one of your party members insist on telling the truth, dealing fairly with everyone, attacking evil creatures against overwhelming odds? He might not be crazy; he might just be indulging the paladin within." :smallbiggrin:


Many (including myself) thought all three were fake, but I think my son (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=19052) is the only one who predicted Xykon was invisible.



Your son is a slaad?! I'm not even going to ask how that happened!


Ya'll missing the next possibility: The fourth Xykon is a fake, too. Presented with an obvious ruse, then the conclusion, is too easy.

Besides, the scale of that zombie dragon doesn't match the scale of the previously shown one. Too small. Multiple zombie dragons?

Heh. Scale. Dragon. Get it?

What if every Xykon is a fake, and he doesn't exist at all? Maybe he's just a projection of Redcloak's insecurities? :smallbiggrin:


Actually, if you check the thread for strip #426, you'll see I was the first one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2195734&postcount=97) to predict that Xykon would be sneaking in on the zombie dragon while the OotS was distracted by the 3 fake Xykons on the battlefield. :) But Romnipotent probably just didn't read that thread, so he came to the same conclusion I did, on his own, probably. Still, I'm pretty proud to have been the first to think of it. :)

I'm sorry. For a couple of weeks after my father died recently I didn't read any of the threads. I did post something to the 426 thread, but not until after the 427 thread had already appeared. It was something I'd thought about when I read 426, but I wasn't really up to posting yet. As a consquence I never read your thread. Since Romnipotent's post appeared on the 427 thread, I did read it. In any case I never said he was the first to predict it, and even seeing yours I'm not sure that I know for certain that someone else didn't predict it even earlier.

Anyway, congratulations on predicting it.

[Freelance Henchman]

What if every Xykon is a fake, and he doesn't exist at all? Maybe he's just a projection of Redcloak's insecurities? :smallbiggrin:

So Order of the Stick is an elaborate "Fight Club"/D&D crossover?

[Bilbo27]

Now that my friends, is what you call a GRAND entrance.

Kudos to you MR B!

[CelestialStick]

It's in one of the bonus strips from book 2 where the Silver Dragon is actually killed and then in a later strip Xyklon brings him back to life; therefore zombie.

If it were any form of intelligent undead then he would be a more powerful force than Xyklon himself (being a dragon, the only form I can think of would be a dracolitch).

The create undead spell allows you to create ghouls, ghasts, mummies and mohrgs, and it doesn't require the corpse to be humanoid or giant, so the spell could make the dragon anything from a ghoul to a mohrg. The create greater undead spell allows you to create shadows, wraiths, spectres and devourers. Except for the devourer, these are all incorporeal, and if the dragon were incorporeal Xykon would fall right throught it. It doesn't look like a devourer, so I'd say that it isn't anything better than you can create with a create undead spell. Of course it looks zombie-like, so that's probably what it is. :smallsmile:

[WNxArrakis]

I say we need to name the dragon :P

[CelestialStick]

Probably greater invisibility or something... I don't have a great knowledge of the spells (usually play melee types) but making Xykon and the dragon-zombie invisible would require either some mass invisibility spell or multiple castings, right?

Either two castings of invisibility or greater invisibility, or one casting of mass invisibility would work.

[Fale]

I haven't read all nine pages of this, so I'm sure that this has been brought up before. If Xykon was flying towards them from the right (facing the front of the wall as seen in the last panel), the wind in the previous panels should be blowing their clock/hair/crown the opposite way. Yea, I know it's a stick figure comic and prefect physics aren't required, I just noticed it while reading.

[Icewalker]

Excellent, go Haley and Sangwaan. Definitely saw that coming, with so many people arguing how it must be the third one.

Also love V's plan, and the look on the generals face while (it?) casts Mass Enlarge Person.:eek:

[CelestialStick]

Truly awe-inspiring strip! I loved it.

What is it the Americans say...it's full of awesome and win? Yeah, that's it.:smallcool:

I expect a veeery nasty spell attack from Xykon next, and an eaten seer.

I'm sorry Caractacus, my friend, but I'm an American, conversant with many Americanisms, and yet I've never heard "it's full of awesome and win." It could be a Briticism, although I'm familiar with a great many of them too. I'd say that if it's a saying at all it comes from your side of the Pond, and probably from people who aren't native English speakers, but that's just logical speculation on my part.

[Dwarkanath]

Just a thought:
What if Xykon is Ethereal (presuming of course the breeze is a conceit for the story by Rich)? At Xykon's level, it would last a decent amount of time and let him go pretty much wherever he wanted. It would also explain why Xykon looks like he's flying through the soldiers on the wall (and why they don't smell the rotting corpse of the dragon).

And if the above is true, Xykon could have Etherealized (is that a word?) some shock troops to take position within the city to hold ground. Say, in the throne room?


-- Dave