does LA count to character level

[Smegskull]

I can have a cohort up to my character level -2. Is character level here referring to HD/class level or ECL which includes my LA?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's ECL. You're looking for the sum of RHD, class levels and LA.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's ECL. You're looking for the sum of RHD, class levels and LA.

Level adjustment does NOT count towards character level, only to ECL. Do you have some kind of rules quote that would indicate that Leadership goes off of ECL rather than character level?

[sonofzeal]

Level adjustment does NOT count towards character level, only to ECL. Do you have some kind of rules quote that would indicate that Leadership goes off of ECL rather than character level?

.....because the alternative is blatantly abusable?

"My Cohort is a half-dragon, half-celestial, half-fey, phrenic, shadow, dark, vampire.... anything, really. Does it matter at that point?"

[Divide by Zero]

ECL stands for effective character level. It counts as character level for things that depend on it.

[KillianHawkeye]

ECL stands for effective character level. It counts as character level for things that depend on it.

This is blatantly untrue. Character level and effective character level are separate terms with different meanings and uses. Your level adjustment doesn't help you resist spells or effects that are limited by character level/hit dice. It doesn't effect your acquisition of feats or ability score increases that are based on character level. It doesn't effect your maximum skill rank.

According to the SRD in the section on Monsters as Races, ECL does only the following:

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

All I did was ask for a rules reference concerning ECL and Leadership.

And to clarify, the OP's question was clearly in regards to the level vs ECL of the character taking Leadership, not the level of the cohort.

[supersonic29]

I can have a cohort up to my character level -2. Is character level here referring to HD/class level or ECL which includes my LA?

My interpretation is they mean character level. Leadership is a feat which typically references abilities gained by experience, it's not racially inherent in any way, i.e. LA from having 4 arms and jumping really high doesn't make you a better leader. This is why using races with LA is always questionable.

Edit: Why am I even saying my interpretation in that first sentence, character level and effective character level are entirely different and they said character level, it's outright given. Hope the rest of that explains the logic behind it well though.

[Chronos]

What cohort you can take depends on your cohort's ECL compared to your CL. No, this isn't made explicit anywhere, but it's the only way the rules make sense.

[Pan151]

Character Level, when referenced in a rule, always refers to Effective Character Level. Why? Because that is what ECL does, and if it was not that way then LA (cohort) would not be a thing either.

If a rule refers to RHD +Class levels, then it specifically mentions "Hit Dice" instead of "character level".


No, there is no specific rule quote that says that. There needs not be one - in absence of rules specific to cohorts you use the rules of PCs and that's it. Also, common sense - these rules were written for human beings possessing sufficient reasoning to be able to at least use toothpicks without clear-cut step-by-step instructions.

EDIT: I actually understood the OP completely wrongly. Ignore the above.

[Curmudgeon]

Character Level, when referenced in a rule, always refers to Effective Character Level.
The rules say the exact opposite.

character level

A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing. A single-class character's character level is their class level, regardless of whether they have 0 level adjustment or +9 level adjustment. So character level, when referenced in a rule, always excludes LA.

[supersonic29]

The rules say the exact opposite.

I'm glad someone said it. Also,


Also, common sense - these rules were written for human beings possessing sufficient reasoning to be able to at least use toothpicks without clear-cut step-by-step instructions.

if you want logic:


Leadership is a feat which typically references abilities gained by experience, it's not racially inherent in any way, i.e. LA from having 4 arms and jumping really high doesn't make you a better leader.

[Pan151]

Actually scrap that. I was thinking we were arguing about an entirely different thing the entire time (the CL of the cohort rather than the CL of the leader).

I am an idiot. Or maybe I need more sleep. Or both :smallfrown:

[Smegskull]

So if I am using a character with a single class level and spend all the rest of my XP on LA traits I can not get a cohort to ride around on?

Remember not all LA are racial starting some of them have to be gained through experience (counter to the "leadership is a representative of experience gained" argument)

[Urpriest]

So if I am using a character with a single class level and spend all the rest of my XP on LA traits I can not get a cohort to ride around on?

Remember not all LA are racial starting some of them have to be gained through experience (counter to the "leadership is a representative of experience gained" argument)

You can't exactly "gain LA with experience"...you can certainly gain some templates as you advance, some of which have LA, and you can buy off LA with experience, but neither of those is the same thing.

Anyway, RAW, your cohort is limited by character level, not ECL. That said, many DMs will rule that you can use ECL instead, since it fits in decently well with ECL's design goals (vis a vis everything XP-based being determined by ECL).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since it was asked for (and my DMG is handy again) here's a rules quote


For creatures with classes, such as a lizardfolk cohort, calculate its level according to the rules for PCs of that kind of monster.

<irrelevant table>

The effective character level of a creature determines how powerful it is as a character or a cohort.

You use the ECL.

[Urpriest]

Since it was asked for (and my DMG is handy again) here's a rules quote



You use the ECL.

Just to be clear: the OP is asking about whether you use your own ECL or CL to figure out what ECL your cohort can be, not whether you use the cohort's ECL or CL. It's quite clear that you use the cohort's ECL, but as-is it appears that you use your own CL.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh, I don't see it. I honestly wouldn't argue for it as a player either.

Logically though, anytime a player's level is used in xp calculations, as it is in determining the cohort's xp, the game uses ECL.

[supersonic29]

I'd say you might have to talk to your DM about this. Rules say character level for what the OP is asking, that's apparent. An argument can also be made that that's the way that makes sense, but from a balance perspective using the ECL could be fought for.

I guess if this is a low difficulty campaign, I'd go by the book, save the hassle, but if you are actually worried about your character being on par for this, make the appeal.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, regardless of whether you use CL or ECL for the player, and CL or ECL as the cohort, you're going to get some funny extremes.

CL for cohort (regardless of master): Why yes, I'm going to have a Phrenic Half Copper Dragon Half-Celestial Half-Fey Half-Fiendish (what? I can't have five halves?) Paragon (Epic Level Handbook version) Pseudonatural (Ditto) War Troll as my cohort. Why yes, he's just this side of indestructible as an Ex ability with spell-like abilities out the wazoo. Well, sure, he's smarter, faster, stronger, wiser, more charismatic, and could rip my character in half accidentally. Of course he's following my lead!

CL for master, ECL for cohort: So... that Vampire Sorcerer-10 can't have a vampire cohort? How does that make sense?

ECL for master, ECL for cohort: OK, so my Vampire Sorcerer-5 is ECL 13. I'm taking a Cleric-11 for my cohort. Why yes, he can pretty much Rebuke me into next week without a roll. Of course he's following my lead!

My take on it: CL for the master, ECL for the Cohort, with a proviso: If the cohort has the same sort of LA as the master, that LA doesn't count for the cohort. So a Drow Sorcerer-6 could have a Drow Whatever-4 Cohort (both are Drow, so the Drow LA doesn't count). A Vampire Sorcerer-7 could have a Vampire Whatever-5 cohort (both are vampires, so the Vampire LA doesn't count). However, that Drow Sorcerer-6 can't have a Human Cleric-6 cohort (the master isn't treated as level 8 for leadership).

[supersonic29]

CL for master, ECL for cohort: So... that Vampire Sorcerer-10 can't have a vampire cohort? How does that make sense?

I think this a little short sighted on similar reason to why the powerful cleric wouldn't take orders due to how powerful he is. Those who will take orders from you are subordinate in some way, not equal. Just because you decide you want to be a leader doesn't mean every other thing that shares a race with you is willing to become subordinate to you, if they don't see you as qualified enough through experience/power they likely won't. CL master ECL cohort being the written rule I don't find unreasonable, not to entirely denounce the proposed houserule, but sometimes it's just safe to stick with the book.