Xykon Wins

[Ramos]

All Xykon has to do is take out the diviner. I doubt anyone else in Azure City is high enough level to cast True Seeing and has it memorised right now. Alternatively, the zombie dragon flies away from the true seeing range.

In both cases, Xykon can continue on as he's started-though I don't understand why he'd be flying so close to the battlements as to be heard.

[BisectedBrioche]

Yep, all he has to do is reach the throne room and he'll win.

....wait!?

[RMS Oceanic]

Um, maybe someone has Invisibility Purge? There are other ways to discover invisible things.

[SPoD]

All Xykon has to do is take out the diviner. I doubt anyone else in Azure City is high enough level to cast True Seeing and has it memorised right now. Alternatively, the zombie dragon flies away from the true seeing range.

Unless Durkon, who wass standing right next to them when the conversation started, casts Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, or, here's an idea, True Seeing (it's only a 5th level cleric spell). All of which he might have memorized or on scrolls.


In both cases, Xykon can continue on as he's started-though I don't understand why he'd be flying so close to the battlements as to be heard.

Because he's incredibly careless and overconfident. Also, he doesn't know the OOTS is there (Redcloak discovered it while talking to Decoy #3).

[Querzis]

Yep, all he has to do is reach the throne room and he'll win.

....wait!?

No, he still need to kill everyone in the city, the spell is supposed to last weeks. But an invisible lich on a zombie dragon that backstab your troop while they fight the hobgoblins in front of them is still a really good tactical advantage.

[Kriel]

No, I don't think Xykon's going to win this one. I have a theory, but I'm keeping it to myself. If anyone wants to know, PM me.

[Mr Teufel]

I reckon Xykon's right where he wants to be - attacking the OotS by surprise.

[Hinton]

I'm not so certain that Xyzon "wins"; after all, he is the bad guy. Even though the logic of "Evil wins because good is dumb" may apply some of the time, good wins eventually.

That being said, Xykon does appear to have the upper hand here. It's definitely a masterful plan. Good thing Haley figured it out. Question is: how much damage will Xykon do in the process? Is he going to take out as many as he can now that he's been spotted? Or will he make a beeline for the throne room? Will any of our beloved OotS fall in the process?

Ok, so that's more than one question.

[Duke of URL]

Unless Durkon, who wass standing right next to them when the conversation started, casts Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, See Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, or, here's an idea, True Seeing (it's only a 5th level cleric spell). All of which he might have memorized or on scrolls.

And does anyone know what the turn check on a zombie dragon is?

[RowlieBowlie]

mmm but by taking out the diviner, wouldn't that make Xykon (partially) visible again?

besides there's still Durkon who can try to use his Turn undead ability.
Not to mention there might be a few paladins with a detect evil ability?

Xykon isn't there yet. Allthough he could be off course.

[tis_tom]

Well according to No Cure for the Paladin Blues it was once an Ancient Silver Dragon, but I have no idea what the turn check is for a zombified ancient dragon

[ShiningTed]

And here I thought the real Xykon was standing next to Redcloak, and definitely NOT on his dragon. Damn, I lost that bet!

I agree the diviner is in seriously mortal danger - I tihnk the OotS' next move will (or should) be to take out the dragon.

Sweet comic, btw. Really top drawer today.

[ColourDeaf]

I was wondering what happened to that dragon...

[Sampi]

Well, here's a quick take on the
Ancient Siver Dragon Zombie

Type: Gargantuan Undead Dragon
Hit Dice: 68d12+3 (HP 450)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40 ft, 200 ft Fly (clumsy)
Armor Class: 45 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +40 natural, touch 5, flat 45)
Base attack/grapple: +34/+58
Attack: 1 bite +47 4d6+13
Space/reach:20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite)
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Single Actions Only (ex)
Saves: Fort +22 Ref +21 Will +36
Abilities: Str 37 Dex 8 Con - Int - Wis 10 Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Toughness

So, turn check for 68 HD undead? It would be easier to turn Xykon. Yet, the Giant works in mysterious ways.

[SPoD]

You can't have a 68 HD zombie normally. Zombies cannot be made from creatures with more than 10 HD.

So, it's either not a zombie, or some special "zombie dragon" effect was used.

[Sampi]

No, you can't make a zombie from a creature with more than 10 HD with Animate Dead. Xykon must have some special bad-boy magic of his own.

[SPoD]

Well, at that point, it could have any stats in the world, since we have no basis for how it could exist at all. Not much point in speculating on it then.

EDIT: Also, it was Redcloak who animated it, not Xykon.

EDIT 2: And he does so with Animate Dead in the first panel of #300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html). So obviously, all bets are off.

[David94]

Will any of our beloved OotS fall in the process?No. In most primary forms of entertainment, (TV, Movies, etc.) the main character(s) never die(s). Well they may fake dying, or die but then be revived, but they never die forever. Well, except in video games, where when the main character dies, you get 'Game Over' and start from your last save point. :smalltongue:

[Vargtass]

Well, at that point, it could have any stats in the world, since we have no basis for how it could exist at all. Not much point in speculating on it then.

EDIT: Also, it was Redcloak who animated it, not Xykon.

EDIT 2: And he does so with Animate Dead in the first panel of #300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html). So obviously, all bets are off.

I think, around the time of strip 300, it was mentioned some rules for zombie dragons in a non-core supplement (e.g. Draconomicon?). I don't own these, but I suspect others do...?

[the_tick_rules]

they're are rules for zombie monsters the the MM right? i know they have skeletal there

[BisectedBrioche]

No. In most primary forms of entertainment, (TV, Movies, etc.) the main character(s) never die(s). Well they may fake dying, or die but then be revived, but they never die forever. Well, except in video games, where when the main character dies, you get 'Game Over' and start from your last save point. :smalltongue:

And CRPGs, where they get replaced by someone who happens to be at the same level, with the same moves and the same stats.

[FujinAkari]

No. In most primary forms of entertainment, (TV, Movies, etc.) the main character(s) never die(s). Well they may fake dying, or die but then be revived, but they never die forever. Well, except in video games, where when the main character dies, you get 'Game Over' and start from your last save point. :smalltongue:

Except that the Oracle SPECIFICALLY SAID Durkon would return to his homeland post-humaniously, so we -know- he will eventually die. Same for Belkar: "Enjoy your last birthday cake."

OOTS isn't playing by the standard ruleset.

[Raiden Drake]

Well, here's a quick take on the
Ancient Siver Dragon Zombie

Type: Gargantuan Undead Dragon
Hit Dice: 68d12+3 (HP 450)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40 ft, 200 ft Fly (clumsy)
Armor Class: 45 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +40 natural, touch 5, flat 45)
Base attack/grapple: +34/+58
Attack: 1 bite +47 4d6+13
Space/reach:20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite)
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Single Actions Only (ex)
Saves: Fort +22 Ref +21 Will +36
Abilities: Str 37 Dex 8 Con - Int - Wis 10 Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Toughness

So, turn check for 68 HD undead? It would be easier to turn Xykon. Yet, the Giant works in mysterious ways.

According to the Draconomicon, a zombie dragon keeps its HD so is only a ... *maths* ...34 HD undead!! :eek:

:durkon: is supposely level 13 the highest level HD of undead he can turn is 17...

[FruitOfTheShroom]

I have the draconomicon, and it has a skeletal dragon template. Unfortunately, it's not well written; it lists a 22hd skeletal dragon, but doesn't explain if you can animate 20+ HD dragons with animate dead if you use the template. Also, the template is slightly more powerful than a normal skeleton/zombie template.
edit: It's a LOT more powerful than normal, since you don't recalculate saves, BAB, or skills.

[Gitman00]

No. In most primary forms of entertainment, (TV, Movies, etc.) the main character(s) never die(s). Well they may fake dying, or die but then be revived, but they never die forever. Well, except in video games, where when the main character dies, you get 'Game Over' and start from your last save point. :smalltongue:

I direct you to Tasha Yar Never mind, that's in a class of poor writing all its own. So how about:

Dude, have you ever seen any of Joss Whedon's stuff?

[factotum]

Dude, have you ever seen any of Joss Whedon's stuff?

Or read any books written by Iain M. Banks, for that matter. :smallsmile:

[brant167]

Well, to me it looks like Xykon is on the etherial plain and not simply invisible. Look at the dragon’s wing going into the castle wall. If that is the case the oots are in a great deal more trouble because he can just move through the fortification and into the thrown room with ease. If he and the dragon have Etherealness, a 9th level spell, already cast on them the party will have a much harder time fighting him. Because of the 50% miss chance even if they can see him as well as being actually able to see him. So if I am correct unless a party member has wall of force prepared the party is going to run into a good bit of trouble.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealJaunt.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm

[Innis Cabal]

if he was on the etherial plane they wouldnt feel the wind from the dragon, not only that but true it would suck if he was on the etherial plane just by passing through the walls but he cant attack the party members so when he goes unetherial he will be hosed

[realitystream]

Well, to me it looks like Xykon is on the etherial plain and not simply invisible. Look at the dragon’s wing going into the castle wall. If that is the case the oots are in a great deal more trouble because he can just move through the fortification and into the thrown room with ease. If he and the dragon have Etherealness, a 9th level spell, already cast on them the party will have a much harder time fighting him. Because of the 50% miss chance even if they can see him as well as being actually able to see him. So if I am correct unless a party member has wall of force prepared the party is going to run into a good bit of trouble.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealJaunt.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm

I really doubt it's Ethereal. It's not the fact that the wings are going into the walls, but the seer's vision and/or spell range isn't wide enough to see the entire dragon.

But let's give her some slack. C'mon, giant undead dragon literally in your face? I'd probably not see anything but the teeth with that spell.

Then again, it looks like it's muzzled...

[Mr Teufel]

Are there rules on co-operative Turning Undead? Durkon's got a few paladins there who could give him support.

[Innis Cabal]

wouldnt work, and later in levels turn is so utterly useless becuase HD does not scale with CR

[Vale]

Except that the Oracle SPECIFICALLY SAID Durkon would return to his homeland post-humaniously, so we -know- he will eventually die.

Well, posthumously might mean in 120 years. Sure, he'll die EVENTUALLY. But it doesn't have to be "on screen" even. While the Oracle might have put a best-before date on Belkar, they didn't make any predictions of when everyone's favourite dwarf would die.

Besides, in a world with True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm), Durkon might die, have his corpse carted off to the Dwarven lands, and then resurrected by the High Priest of Thor in order to send him off on another mission of Dire Importance that only Durkon can deal with(because of knowledge gained in his decades of travels?).

...Then he dies again, of old age this time. :smalltongue: Oh well. Just saying that seeing someone die doesn't mean they're DEAD dead, just dead. Our primary villan is (un)living proof of that after all.

[Bel_Bel]

All Xykon has to do now is Meteor Swarm. He wins. Story over.

BUT!!!

He won't because that would spoil the plot.

[Innis Cabal]

i dont think he has access to 9th level spells

[Jawajoey]

No. In most primary forms of entertainment, (TV, Movies, etc.) the main character(s) never die(s). Well they may fake dying, or die but then be revived, but they never die forever. Well, except in video games, where when the main character dies, you get 'Game Over' and start from your last save point. :smalltongue:

Ha! That might have been more convincing if I hadn't just read Vector Prime.


i dont think he has access to 9th level spells
Well, the OOTS is level 10+, right? And Xykon is higher than them, right? So...


I don't think Xykon's winning this round. Before the battle started, I thought for sure he would. Things were stacked against AC. But due to V's awesome efforts, I think they've got a great shot of winning the fight, and since Haley just busted the decoy obstacle, Xykon's element of surprise, which may have still condemned the defenders, is gone. Although he IS still on a flying Zombie Dragon while invisible...

[Tobrian]

Well, to me it looks like Xykon is on the etherial plain and not simply invisible. Look at the dragon’s wing going into the castle wall.

if he was on the etherial plane they wouldnt feel the wind from the dragon,

I thought the dragon was flying in front of the castle wall about level with the ramparts, with his flapping wings dipping below the rampart line on the downstroke. We reason we can see the castle wall through the wings is simply that it's drawn that way so show the dragon is still invisible. *shrug*

[Vargtass]

i dont think he has access to 9th level spells

He has. It's proven in the bonus strips in No Cures for the Paladin Blues.
Details below:
He specifically uses Meteor Swarm against the very dragon he rides.



Well, the OOTS is level 10+, right? And Xykon is higher than them, right? So...


Spell levels are not the same as Character levels. Xykon needs to be level 18 in order to cast 9th level spells.

Please check the Levels and Classes Geekery thread for the updated evidenced speculations on the stats of the Order and the other main characters.

[Arssanguinus]

Except that the Oracle SPECIFICALLY SAID Durkon would return to his homeland post-humaniously, so we -know- he will eventually die. Same for Belkar: "Enjoy your last birthday cake."

OOTS isn't playing by the standard ruleset.

Belkar is the proud recipient of an "Eternal Youth" spell. He dies and comes back as an Undead Etcetera. Just about any prophecy that short can have multiple interpretations.

[Bel_Bel]

The Class and Geekery II thread says he is at least level 18 because apparently he cast meteor swarm in one of the books.

[Deuce]

Xykon is still plenty stoppable. We've got good reason to believe that the Order is up to Level 13 now - so Durkon can cast Undeath to Death. Considering the nature of the enemy they face, not hard to believe he'd have it memorized. That spell will let Durkon destroy 13d4 HD of Undead (average roll would give him an effect of 32 HD) if he casts that now (area of effect spell, I don't believe he needs to choose a target) either the Dragon or Xykon are facing a Fort save to avoid destruction. The Dragon should make the save - but unless Xykon is epic level, he's not going to have a great Fort save.

No indication in the rules as to how this would impact Xykon's ability to return through his "Soul-hidey place".

[Zherog]

Well, first, undeath to death is a great spell. With that out of the way...

Undeath to death is like circle of death except it affects undead instead of living creatures.


This spell functions like circle of death, except that it destroys undead creatures as noted above.


No creature of 9 or more HD can be affected.

So no, it won't affect Xykon or the dragon zombie.

[pendell]

I personally think this is a mistake on Xykon's part.

Why? Because he's doing what beginning chess players do ... advance his most powerful, irreplaceable piece out in the opening game. And anyone who's ever played or watched chess for any length of time knows how that turns out:

Noob: Wee! I've brought out my queen! Taste flaming death, little screwball pawns!

*five moves later*

Noob: Aw, man! I just lost my queen, and she only took out like two pawns.

---
It is a VERY, VERY bad idea to advance your most powerful piece prematurely, and I see that is what Xykon did here. He might get away with it, but it's a gamble.

Intelligent strategists don't gamble unnecessarily.

I suspect Redcloak is leveraging Xykon's impatience against him. Xykon will get taken down by the OOTS. Not only will this mean he won't be able to interfere with Redcloak's intelligent battle management, but that he will cause serious damage to the defenders while being taken down. The genuine Xykon serves as an excellent distraction, even though this is the equivalent of a chess queen sacrifice.

Besides, Xykon will regenerate in a few weeks, so getting him "killed" doesn't actually cause long term damage.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Voyager_I]

Is the Order even capable of properly defeating Xykon? They beat him last time through the Power of Plot, rather than actual combat.

[Innis Cabal]

it depends on how buffed Xykon is, how ready they themselves are, how powerful the dragon is....so ya they can win it

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A single Meteor Swarm does 36d6 damage on a single target, 24d6 in the area. Doubt any of the OotS can save against Xykon's DC (Even Haley failed reflex saves vs Samantha). That's 126 damage versus Roy and 84 damage versus everybody else. BANG! You're dead.

Even worse is mass hold person because only Durkon has a good will save and high wisdom, never mind Wail of the Banshee. C'mon OoTS, DC 26 fortitude save or die. (Even Roy doesn't have a higher fortitude save than +14)

So, OoTS can defeat Xykon, right? Only if they surprise him and they destroy him in a single round. V could probably do it with Disintegrate but nobody else even gets close.

[Deuce]

Well, first, undeath to death is a great spell. With that out of the way...

Undeath to death is like circle of death except it affects undead instead of living creatures.





So no, it won't affect Xykon or the dragon zombie.

Well poop on a stick - that's what I get for playing too much NWN and not enough 3.5 P&P. Maybe Thor's got some nice level 6 and 7 domain spells for him?

[Dectilon]

There's always a possibility that the Giant has been reading a Song of Ice and Fire : )

[tis_tom]

I still think V is the only one who could come close to defeating Xykon out of the whole OOTS, and that's relying on sheer blitzing rather than any particular stratagy. I reckon that's why Rich made sure V was far out the way :smalleek:

[Laesin]

No, you can't make a zombie from a creature with more than 10 HD with Animate Dead.

Please cite your source. I don't see that limit in the spell description.

[Green Bean]

But let's give her some slack. C'mon, giant undead dragon literally in your face? I'd probably not see anything but the teeth with that spell.

Then again, it looks like it's muzzled...

I wouldn't worry about the dragon too much. While a zombie dragon is quite the trophy piece, it isn't so hot in the mount department. A zombie dragon only gets one action per round. That means it can fly in place, or attack. And since its up in the air, attacking isn't going to be an option, unless Xykon aspires to Elan-like competence.

See, all you have to worry about is the incredibly powerful spellcaster who can probably wipe out half of AC's army by himself were it not for the OotS :smallbiggrin:

[starwoof]

In the draconomicon there is indeed a zombie dragon template. The example dragon has 15 hit dice. Its on page 197.

Xykon might stop to monologue, as any villain does, but will be lobbing spells. He'll probably just blow past them.

[Vale]

No, you can't make a zombie from a creature with more than 10 HD with Animate Dead. Xykon must have some special bad-boy magic of his own.

Except... Xykon didn't reanimate it.

And yes, Redcloak DID use Animate Dead.

You can see it all in comic 300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html).
Xykon walks up to talk to Redcloak, while RC is casting Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) on a large grey veiny corpse. A few minutes later, you see a translucent wing sticking out of the corner of the frame. A minute after that, Xykon is riding a large grey veiny zombie dragon with translucent wings. I think it's a fairly safe bet that's what RC was zombifying.

And I believe that the limit you were talking about in Animate Dead is this one:


*Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) spell doubles this limit)