PDA

View Full Version : Adjusting CR



Ranis
2007-03-20, 08:28 AM
Is there a way to effectively balance out group CR for groups much larger than 4? Say, 10? I'm getting a bit annoyed having to 'guess' to gauge what my PCs can handle; if anyone can help that would be awesome.

Also, do you think two Nimblewrights are a bit much for ten 5th level characters?

Saph
2007-03-20, 09:11 AM
Is there a way to effectively balance out group CR for groups much larger than 4? Say, 10? I'm getting a bit annoyed having to 'guess' to gauge what my PCs can handle; if anyone can help that would be awesome.

Try mentally dividing up the party. Think of them as two parties of 5 characters each. Make an appropriate challenge for each one, then throw the two challenges at them at the same time. It's a lot easier than trying to treat the party as a 10-character whole.


Also, do you think two Nimblewrights are a bit much for ten 5th level characters?

Don't know the stats for Nimblewrights - where are they from?

- Saph

Vortling
2007-03-20, 09:16 AM
I've found this http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm to be generally useful for balancing encounters however I've never used it for parties that large.

Justin_Bacon
2007-03-20, 09:17 AM
Is there a way to effectively balance out group CR for groups much larger than 4? Say, 10? I'm getting a bit annoyed having to 'guess' to gauge what my PCs can handle; if anyone can help that would be awesome.

Not really.

For example, take a creature with relatively low hp but a devastating area of effect attack. Taking on one of them is do-able for a party because they can take it down before it gets too many of those AOE attacks off -- but if you send more than one of them against a large party, the multiple AOEs will give you a TPK.

OTOH, send a single large creature of a higher CR against the larger party and they might be powerful enough to casually kill a PC in one or two blows. The party will probably defeat them, but they'll have lots of casualties.

So there is no definite sweet spot, because specific abilities will skew encounters off the norm when set against an abnormally sized group of PCs.

That being said:

1. In general, EL vs. EL is a 50-50 shot. In other words, if you take two CR 10 fighters (both EL 10) and set them against each other, they've got a 50-50 shot of emerging victorious. This can be generalized within a narrow range: Take two CR 8 fighters (EL 10) and set them against a CR 10 fighter (also EL 10), and they've probably got a 50-50 shot.

2. The typical adventuring party has an EL of level+4. When facing off against an equal EL, they're supposed to lose 20% of their resources. So EL vs. EL+4 is a fairly safe encounter for the EL+4 (if the EL+4 hasn't already had its resources depleted).

3. Your group of 10 PCs has an EL somewhere in the range of level+6 or level+7.

So I would be looking at encounters with a total EL 2 higher than the party's average level as a baseline. I would tend to favor encounters with multiple creatures rather than one big creature for two reasons: First, with ten people wailing on it, the one big creature will burn through its hit point pool before it has a chance to do anything. Second, if the one big creature does manage to win initiative or otherwise manage to accomplish something, it will probably be powerful enough to seriously injure or kill a single opponent.

In other words, you're better off using a horde of goblins than a single ogre against a 1st level party.

If you do want a boss match, use a creature with a CR+1 compared to the party's level and then round out the encounter with a horde of CR-2 or CR-3 creatures who can be used to occupy some of the melee fighters or distract the spellcasters.

Any time you can create a situation to split the party is golden. And you don't even need to physically split them -- just design the encounter so that it functions more like two separate melees instead of one big melee. Simple examples include creatures coming at them from two different directions at the same time, or battles in large areas where the enemies are physically separated by a distance larger than a single charge can cross.

Depending on party mobility, you can also do things like putting the enemies on the other side of a ravine or otherwise limiting how many characters can bring their abilities to bear (and how effectively/quickly they can bring their abilities to bear).

PnP Fan
2007-03-20, 12:41 PM
I have a similar problem in that I typically have 6 or 7 players. What I usually do is figure out the Encounter Level of my players. Then I set up an encounter of equivalent level. Typically I try to mix up the level/CR of the villains so that there are a couple of leader/boss types that are of higher level/cr, and then a bunch of minion types that are of slightly lower CR than the PCs. This generally works pretty well and makes for good, fun fights. It also helps out with the fact that there are 6-7 brains opposite the GM screen, and they can come up with tactics faster than I can, but if the npcs out number them, and can swarm up on them, it helps make the fight a little more exciting.
Oh, and if things need to be alittle more challenging, I bump the total CR for the villains a little, maybe 1 or 2 points.

storybookknight
2007-03-20, 12:48 PM
Having run such games before, the easiest solution is minions. If an ordinary encounter would have 4 people fighting, oh, an ogre; ten people should probably fight the ogre and his six orcs. Ten people fighting a dragon? He totally has wyvern friends, or maybe half-dragon children.

If it doesn't make sense to have minions, then give the monster multiple actions - say, a "spellcasting turn" and a "attack turn", just to try to keep up with the overwhelming number of PCs and their actions.

If you're already fighting a large crowd of low-level mooks, just keep piling on mooks. Design "spawn points" if you have to, to keep the action moving.

I second the idea that sending 2 dragons instead of 1 dragon isn't a good plan. The PCs have an overwhelming advantage in number of actions, moreso than any particular advantage in firepower. Hit the players with a main baddie and his mooks! For NPCs, consider Clerics, Bards, Marshals, or Dragon Shamans - anyone who can buff their followers.

Want to send the party against an illithid? Give him Voidmind Grimlock followers from the Monster Manual 3.

Hope it helps!

Fixer
2007-03-20, 12:58 PM
A good rule is if you have a larger group to simply multiply the number of baddies by the oversize of the group.

Have 8 people playing? Double the number of baddies.
Have 6 people playing? 150% of the number of baddies.
Have 2 people playing? 50% of the number of baddies.

Try not to choose a higher CR rating to reduce the number of baddies because that results in a higher chance of PC death at their level than is generally considered 'fair'. Better to have two BBEG for 8 players than 1 RBBEG four levels higher than the party.

Vik
2007-03-20, 01:07 PM
Try not to choose a higher CR rating to reduce the number of baddies because that results in a higher chance of PC death at their level than is generally considered 'fair'. Better to have two BBEG for 8 players than 1 RBBEG four levels higher than the party.QFT.
Just keep in mind that doubling creatures number won't be enough ; you'll have to adapt tactics too. Basically, the best is to have them split in two groups - otherwise you'll have area effects shining too much. To facilitate this, have the PCs spread ; a single encounter with some fireballers should greatly encourage this.

It will give you more work to handle the fights, but you know what you're doing by playing with 10 pcs :smalltongue:

Ranis
2007-03-20, 01:25 PM
Thanks for all of the advice, although I've already figured out the BBEG + Minions is a much more fair fight than 2 BBEG's.

This has led me to be a bit more creative with my mook selection; ie flaming skeletons compared to regular ones at an equal CR, and mooks with class levels.

Thanks again for everyone's input, and that calculator is all kinds of sweetness.